Eternal spiritual master

[Guest guest]

What exactly does it mean when it is said that the relationship between the spiritual master and disciple is eternal? There appear to be some philosophical differences in what I've read in Srila Prabhupada's books and what I've heard from other gurus in the Gaudiya Math.

[Guest guest]

i do not think so.. all gaudya math (iskcon too) chants in guru puja "janme, janme prabhu sei".. " you are master life after life".... so there's no difference

 

guru-disciple relationship never brokens because is on the spiritual platform, where there's no death

 

as stated in sri guruvastakam ("nikunja juno" verse) this relation continues also when the soul comes back in the spiritual world

 

guru are all the diksa and siksa we meet in all our lives, who are the representatives of the chaitya guru.. paramatma

 

please write what you call discrepances and cite the sources (better to be careful with this supposed dychotomy IskCon-gaudyaMath and better to avoid speculations and offences)

 

[Guest guest]

 

guru are all the diksa and siksa we meet in all our lives, who are the representatives of the chaitya guru.. paramatma

 

 

This is a bit confusing. You see, I was under the impression that the diksa guru and disciple have an eternal and singular relationship. This idea of many diksa gurus from many lives is something I don't seem to be able to comprehend. "He is my Lord birth after birth" indicates to me a singular relationship between one spiritual master and one disciple. Can you kindly explain to me what you are talking about?

[yasodanandana]

as i have said one can see the various gurus that helped in several lifes to come back to krsna as representatives of paramatma... the original guru (so one guru, one lord, one prabhu)

 

but the VARIETY is a constitutional part of the spiritual world, when we come back we will have many "lords" to serve.. krsna, radha, the gopis, the acharyas, the guru, lord siva, brahma, vishnu, pandavas etc.

 

so there will be no problems to serve and honour the many teachers representatives of paramatma that have given their mercy to us

 

if we have several gurus (diksa and siksa) in several lifes i do not see how, back in the spiritual world, we can choose not to homage some of them and to choose only one "prabhu, life after life" to consider as our spiritual master

 

of course, with a material mind, we can understand this principle only partially

[Guest guest]

I'm sorry, Prabhuji. I'm still confused. Where does this idea of multiple diksa gurus come from? I have not seen it anywhere in Srila Prabhupada's books.

 

It is not, "They are my Lords birth after birth, it is, "He is my Lord birth after birth."

 

I see no problem in paying homage to more than one diksa guru when one returns home to the spiritual world, it's just the concept of having more than one diksa guru, that I do not comprehend. I don't see this concept supported in any of Srila Prabhupada's books.

[yasodanandana]

my english.... is very bad and i am sorry

 

let us try:

 

you chant hare krishna, take initiation from a guru, but you do not go to krsna in this life

 

the next life you restart to practice krsna consciousness but it is very difficult that you surrender to the same "prabhu" who has given you shelter in the previous life... maybe he was alrdeady old, or you are in another nation or planet or universe!!!

 

so you take initiation from another guru

 

......... continue in this way for many lifes.. and

 

when we come back to krsna both the aspects of unity and variety will be there, we will recognize that all the gurus that have helped us are the manifestation of the paramatma but obviously we will serve and we will be eternally grateful to all these "prabhus"

 

so the guru of this life is our "janme janme prabhu" exactly as the guru of the past life and the one of the next..... if not what's the meaning of eternal (janme janme)?

 

the song says "he's my lord" because in that particular moment or life we put all our attention on our present guru, we chant it in front of that guru or his murti / picture etc.

 

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guest guest]

is not guru a post - like Brahma is a post - like king is a post -

[Guest guest]

Everything in Srila Prabhupada's books supports the idea of a singular diksa guru, who comes back again and again, if necessary, to reclaim the disciple. The following passage states this very clearly:

 

"In the bhakti-yoga process, the role of the spiritual master is most important and essential. Although the spiritual master will always come back until his devotees have achieved God realization, one should not try to take advantage of this. We should not trouble our spiritual master but should complete the bhakti-yoga process in this life. The disciple should be serious in his service to the spiritual master, and if the devotee is intelligent, he should think, "Why should I act in such a way that my spiritual master has to take the trouble to reclaim me again? Let me realize Krsna in this life." That is the proper way of thinking. We should not think, "Oh, I am sure that my spiritual master will come and save me. Therefore I will do as I please." If we have any affection for our spiritual master, we should complete the process in this life, so that he does not have to return to reclaim us.

"In this regard, there is the example of Bilvamangala Thakura, who, in his previous life, was elevated almost to prema-bhakti, the highest platform of devotional service. However, since there is always a chance for a falldown, somehow or other he fell down. In his next life, he was born in a very rich brahmana family, in accordance with the principle enunciated in the Sixth Chapter of Bhagavad-gita (6.41): sucinam srimatam gehe. Unfortunately, as is often the case with rich boys, he became a prostitute hunter. Yet it is said that his spiritual master instructed him through his prostitute, saying, "Oh, you are so attached to this mere flesh and bones. If you were this much attached to Krsna, how much good you might achieve!" Immediately Bilvamangala Thakura resumed his devotional service.

"Although the spiritual master assumes responsibility for his disciple, we should not take advantage of this. Rather, we should try to please the spiritual master (yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah). We should not put our spiritual master in such a position that he has to reclaim us from a house of prostitution. But even if he has to do so, he will do it, because he assumes this responsibility when he accepts his disciple."

 

It can be noted here in the last paragraph that Srila Prabhupada says " *he* assumes this responsibility", not "*they* assume this responsibility." In the first paragraph, he states "...the spiritual *master* will always come back until *his* devotees have achieved God realization ", not "the spiritual *masters* will always come back until *their* devotees have achieved God realization.

 

[Guest guest]

Brahma comes back ever creation also - yet it is the post that comes back

[Guest guest]

{quote}is not guru a post - like Brahma is a post - like king is a post -

 

 

[yasodanandana]

"It can be noted here in the last paragraph that Srila Prabhupada says " *he* assumes this responsibility", not "*they* assume this responsibility." In the first paragraph, he states "...the spiritual *master* will always come back until *his* devotees have achieved God realization ", not "the spiritual *masters* will always come back until *their* devotees have achieved God realization."

 

OK /images/graemlins/smile.gif..... but

 

it is clear that if you got initiation by srila prabhupada, you die now (please do not do it prabhu... vaishnava are so rare!!) and you take birth now.. it is possible, when you in your 20s or 30s feel the need to take shelter in a spiritual master, for srila prabhupada to come newly in this planet in person, to teach you, and to take you back to godhead

 

but it is more possible that you take initiation from another pure devotee who, if we wants, we can consider a representative of srila prabhupada or one who continues his work

 

when we come back to krsna....... we will recognise prabhupad as you only guru and kicks in the ass to the ones of the other lifes in wich we were practicing krsna consciousness?

 

i cannot imagine what it will happen if we discover that we were initiated in an other life before the one we got the mercy of srila prabhupada!!

 

so

 

i believe in reincarnation

 

and

 

i believe that in most cases it takes many many lifes (and many masters/representatives of the original master) of krsna consciousness to come back to godhead

 

(i.e. prabhupada is not the reincarnation of madhvacharya born in this earth to finish his work with his fallen disciples..... or maybe yes, but not necessarily...... or better he represents the eternal guru in our heart who was sending also madhvacharya, bhaktivinoda, bhaktisiddhanta etc.)

 

.

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quote: "Yet it is said that his spiritual master instructed him through his prostitute"

 

"through" is the key

[Guruvani]

In the example of Chintamani the prostitute, it might not be that the spiritual master of Bilvamangal Thakur actually incarnated as the prostitute but that through her he was able to speak. He might have been able to affect the heart of the prostitute to deliver a message without having to become the prostitute.

 

We have heard in scripture that great master like Sukadeva Goswami can enter the hearts of all. In this way through a sort of mystical power the spiritual master comes back to deliver his disciples.

[Guest guest]

 

it is clear that if you got initiation by srila prabhupada, you die now (please do not do it prabhu... vaishnava are so rare!!) and you take birth now.. it is possible, when you in your 20s or 30s feel the need to take shelter in a spiritual master, for srila prabhupada to come newly in this planet in person, to teach you, and to take you back to godhead

 

 

No, it is not like that at all. The spiritual master does not have to wonder the universes searching for his disciples (nor does the disciple take another diksa guru because his diksa guru is not available, in fact, the disciples take birth on the planet where the spiritual master is preaching. One's relationship with one's diksa guru is eternal--birth after birth, just as Srila Prabhupada has clearly stated.

 

 

[yasodanandana]

srila prabhupada speaks of "coming back" and, for what we are saying, the question "the master comes in my planet" or "i came in the planet of my master" is irrilevant

 

(sometimes i go in india to see my spiritual master, sometimes he comes in italy.... /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

 

the problem is that i am not able to explain that , if the disciple fails to come back to godhead in one life..

 

1)the master of the previous life can continue in the next (he reach the disciple, or the disciple reach the master.. no problem)

2)the master sends another devotee (in our philosophy variety or collaboration are the standard behaviour and do not mean weakness or lack of purity or power...) to continue his work with that devotee

3)previous masters, this master, next masters are avataras of paramatma

4)siksa gurus are obviously in the cathegory of "master"

5)they're all masters life after life

 

i do not understand why you are saying that this is against srila prabhupada's doctrine

 

of course everything can be used as a deviation, one can be an impersonalist saying that "one guru, two gurus, 1000 gurus, many gurus then guru vishnu, guru shiva, krsna, guru jesus, mahomed and buddah obtaining brahman as a result..

 

or one can deny the variety and complexity of the spiritual world

 

but we are not speaking about deviations

[yasodanandana]

right prabhu.. i was saying it as a paradox... we are not buddhist with the lama reincarnating again and again to continue his duty

 

i completely agree with you explanation of the master who enters in the heart of other devotees to deliver his disciple... but these devotees are masters too and "janme, janme" or eternally

[Guest guest]

The only point of making here, Prabhuji, is that the relationship between the diksa guru and his disciples is eternal, birth after birth. Srila Prabhupada clearly states that this is so and further states that it is the responsibility of the guru to come back, if necessary, to reclaim a disciple.

 

I'm simply saying, that according to Srila Prabhupada, one does not have multiple diksa gurus, but one diksa guru, who is his eternal spiritual master, birth after birth. This diksa guru has taken on the responsibility to return his disciple back home, back to Godhead. If you can present another reference that contradicts this, I would welcome seeing it.

[yasodanandana]

i am not able now, i have not folio and my srimad bhagavatam is in another room

 

i am speaking with logic

 

maybe not all prabhupada initiated disciples will go back to godhead in this life

 

and there's' no evidence that srila prabhupad is guru in other planets to continue his duty with the disciples

 

if it is possible that many srila prabhupada disciples have started their spiritual path in some previous lifes i assume that for you srila prabhupada was in material world before as a spiritual master

 

harekrsna... let's hope that other devotees will help us!!!

 

(anyway, if you do not speak about "post samadhi initiation" i think that there's no difference in this matter with the siddhanta of other bona fide gaudya vaishnava gurus)

[Guest guest]

 

harekrsna... let's hope that other devotees will help us!!!

 

 

I was also hoping that a few more devotees would join this conversation, I'm sure after a while they will. Thank you for kindly conversing with me on this topic.

 

 

[Guest guest]

This question was posed to Sridhara Maharaja and he gave a very wonderful answer to it. I don't know if you will find something similar in the folio that Srila Prabhupada said or not.

 

Anyway, the booklet that has the comments of Sridhara Maharaja is called Divine Staircase of something like that. If I can find and on-line copy(there used to be one but the link is inactive presently) I will post the relevant section here.

 

Basically he said that if the idea is that Guru will be forced to come back and reclaim all his disciples there will be no end to his sojourn through the material sphere. He quoted the verse that says that Krsna is Guru and Guru is one. He then pointed out that Krsna, as Sri Guru, will come to help those sadhakas who have not completed the process.

 

Your servant,

Audarya-lila dasa

[Guest guest]

It is acutally 'The Golden Staircase'.

 

Chapter Second

 

 

 

The Eye to See Sri Guru

 

 

 

Devotee: We are often told, regarding the Guru and the sisya (disciple), that if the sisya is not successful in becoming a completely pure devotee in this life, then the Guru will return by taking another birth. But does the Guru personally take another birth?

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: The relationship must continue. Whether that particular soul who was delegated as the Guru in the previous life will personally come - whether he will again be sent or not - there is no guarantee; but in any case the disciple will maintain his awareness of that higher connection. He will recognize it just as it was in former stages, although it may be in a different form. It will not be unknown to him. And he will also perceive that "I am not unknown to my master." But the Guru's external form may not be similar.

 

Suppose a disciple takes his next birth in a particular country or a particular sect. The Guru may also appear in a particular country or a particular sect, but that the disciple will again come exactly in the same position as before - that may not be. And that the Guru will also come as he did previously, in that fixed position - that also may not be. But they will be able to recognize one another. The Guru will know about the disciple's previous life, and the disciple will also think, "He knows everything about me." With such broadness of vision we are to look at our Guru Maharaj. So guru-tattva means it is saksadd haritvena: not only the person, but the person plus something more. And that arrangement is made by the Lord or His svarupa-sakti. But whatever the external circumstance, there will be no disturbance regarding the path for the disciple.

 

Devotee: I don't know if this is correct, but I have heard it said that if the disciple is not spiritually successful, then the Guru may not return back to Godhead but may remain in this brahmanda (universe). He may not return to Krsna until the disciple can also go.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: If that is the case, then no Guru can ever return to Krsna at any time, because the continuation of the disciples will go on, so he will have no final result at any time in his life. But we cannot think that it is so. Sometimes he may be deputed himself, or others also may be deputed in that case. But the inner instruction and inner feeling and paraphernalia will be such that in any case the disciples will have no trouble. The officer may change, but the function will go on smoothly. So the Guru may return - the nama-guru, mantra-guru, sannyasa-guru - they are all Gurus, but we must recognize something similar in them, and hence we are given the statement about the ontological aspect of Guru: saksadd haritvena samasta- "I Myself appear as the Guru, who is simultaneously and inconceivably one with and different from Myself."

 

Krsna says, acaryam mam vijaniyat: "You should look there for Me. I am there. I am your Guru. With My different types of sakti, by the jivas' recruitment or by any other way, it is My function to take you up to a different place. In every case I am there. I am there in My Madhura-rasa sakti, or Sakhya-rasa sakti, My Vatsalya-rasa sakti, Dasya-rasa sakti, and in a general way also." Sometimes one may be recruited by the Ramanuja Sampradaya and then be converted to join the Krsna Sampradaya, the Gaudiya Sampradaya. That is also possible. We are to remember the eternal link.

 

Look for more in the next post

 

Your servant,

Audarya-lila dasa

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Here is some more from the book:

 

Divine Unfoldment

 

 

 

Devotee: So if someone says that the Guru himself will personally come back - that is a mundane conception, a wrong conception?

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: Yes. The main thread is there, but it will not always appear in the same form. Although to the beginners one may say that "he will come back," ultimately we find that a disciple may even be transferred into another section, and then another section, so that he may gradually reach his destination. According to the unfolding of his inner necessity, the departmental change may occur. And he will always perceive his own Guru in newer and newer ways. At first sight he perceived his Guru to be of one type; then again with progress he will see the same Guru in another way, and thereafter another new characteristic will be found in his Gurudeva. The disciple will feel, "I could not detect so much in my Guru in the beginning. I saw him in one particular way, but now I find that he is something more, and then he is still more." In this way there is divine unfoldment.

 

In this world there is unfoldment, and in the higher domain also there is unfoldment. So avesa, the Guru is something like saktyavesa. There is the "chance contingency" saktyavesa who is deputed according to a particular time, place, or circumstance, and there is also the permanent saktyavesa; but in all cases, according to the necessity of the situation and by the divine dispensation of the Lord, the disciple will be connected, and he won't feel any distrust, it is the presence within. He will quench the thirst for the full progress of his heart, there will be divine unfoldment within his heart, and again he will begin a new thirst. And that new thirst will be quenched by whom? His Guru. It will be quenched by his Guru and he won't have any feeling of unscrupulousness or anything else. As his internal thirst is being satisfied, he will feel, "There is my Gurudeva."

 

Wherever there is unfoldment - gradual unfoldment and full attention given to that - then we can understand that from the upper side there is Guru. Gurudeva is my guide; and as I progress, guidance of different types will be necessary for me. Always new guidance, and my progress will take me into different places, and there a new type of guidance, a new life, will again come. In this way dynamic life is going on, and the main thread is there: raso vai sah - the pure rasa, pure ecstasy. And my inner heart will approve: "Yes, I want this. This is my fate; this is my fortune." Otherwise, if any madhyama-adhikari is appointed as Guru and has so many disciples, and if he is to come back again and again, then he could never enter into nitya-lila. But that cannot be so. In any case, whoever is connected with a genuine Guru will be satisfied, because the Lord is present there.

 

So acaryam mam vijaniyat is not in name only; it has a very specific purpose:

 

 

 

acaryam mam vijaniyan, navamanyeta karhicit

na martya buddhyasuyeta, sarva deva-mayo guruh

(Bha: 11.17.27)

 

 

 

Krsna says, "Don't try to limit the Acarya! You may have come up to a high position, but will you then think that you have surpassed that Acarya through whom you received your initial instruction in spiritual life? No, navamanyeta don't think that there is less in him, don't consider him to be of lower position. Navamanyeta - I Myself was there! I was there in your primary teacher, in your 'college-level' teacher, and I am there in your 'post-graduate professor' also! So navamanyeta, don't look at only the outside. I Myself am your guide in different forms. It is I."

 

Sarva deva-mayo guruh: the Acarya has got more spacious characteristics than that of the ordinary, general Vaisnava. Krsna says, "For you, I am there. And mayanukulena nabhasvateritam - I am backing so many Acaryas. There are so many Acaryas, and I am working through them. The Acaryas are like helmsmen in so many different boats, and I am the favorable wind helping those boats to make progress. So don't limit the Acarya - try to see him on the same level as Me."

 

 

Hope this helps shed some light on this question for you.

 

Your servant,

Audarya-lila dasa

 

 

 

 

 

[theist]

 

Otherwise, if any madhyama-adhikari is appointed as Guru and has so many disciples, and if he is to come back again and again, then he could never enter into nitya-lila. But that cannot be so. In any case, whoever is connected with a genuine Guru will be satisfied, because the Lord is present there.

 

 

 

This is a problem the ritviks must face, honestly and squarely.

 

They propose that Prabhupada is still accepting personal responsibility for new disciples. So Ideally, (their ideals)The number of ritvik priests will expand a thousand fold each intiating as priests for Prabhupada to accept new direct disciples. Each of these priests will bring a hundred or so to Prabhupada for initiation. Now you have hundreds and thousands of Prabhupada disciples that His Divine Grace must come back for. And this is supposed to continue for ten thousand years. A much longer time for HDG as he must track down the sincere wanderers and straighten them out as they all take births in various locales in the universe.

 

Prabhupada is now in a position similar to the one Christians(so-called) want to keep Christ in, a doormat to the Kingdom.

 

Only the so-called Christians are more merciful in a way to their guru. The half finished Christians don't take another birth but instead lay in a grave or some limbo dimension until Christ returns and they all get perfected at once. Jesus doesn't have to keep dieing on the cross, although that would be ok too with most of them.

 

Well I am an uninitiated community member who won't accept this. Like Christ he did his God given work,now the rest is clearly up to us. I hope he is still being worshipped fifty thousand years from now. Krsna will surely be pleased. Yes he is still present in sound but don't make him into a doormat, please.

 

The trap for the ritviks is if they accept Sridhar's words as above then they will have to admit that genuine gurus are still manifesting and will continue to do so. The only other alternative is the filthy doormat theory.