Jiva Goswami and susupti

[Guest guest]

Is it true Jiva Goswami wrote that matter is made up with jivas in susupti?

[theist]

This goes to a long held wonderment of mine so I am going to keep this thread at the top hoping someone will address it.

[Govindaram]

Hare Krishna

 

Just in case people don't know what susupti is here's the answer (you learn something new everyday! /images/graemlins/smile.gif, Google rules!

 

by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada

There are three stages: jagarti, svapna, susupti . Anyone has got this experience. One stage is that you are awakened, another stage is sleeping, and another stage is unconscious. Jagarti, svapna and susupti, the Sanskrit name. Jagarti, when you are awakened, our consciousness is very acute, very strong. In sleeping stage, there is consciousness, but it is not so active. And unconscious stage means consciousness is some way or other subdued, not working. Three stages. So death means that unconsciousness for a long period

 

"We Are Individuals Eternally"

73/08/23 London, Bhagavad-gita 2.17

 

Listen

 

 

[theist]

<font color="red"> CAUTION !!!</font color> You are entering the speculation zone.

 

Are we speaking of actual deep sleep or something that deep sleep is analogous to?

 

I mean if it's actual deep sleep I would think that would be too tied to the physical brain to be accurate.

 

So how is susupti being defined?

 

Is it the state of all jivas who are presently sleeping in ignorance of their individuality or just those of us that have become aware and have chosen to live on the wrong side of the fence(material world).

 

Is this what Krsna means in the Gita when He says we are sustaining the universe?

 

Considering this material variegated activity is all a dream

filled with, and sustained by, us minute living dreamers it makes sense. It is manifesting from our collective minds.

 

All held together and given some organization by Vishnu in His yoga-nidra.And of course since He is the source of all the jivas He is simultaneously one and apart from all this. Jiva also in proportion.

 

Another related question is that if this is true then all we see is connected to an infitesimal living being as well as the Supreme Living Being.

 

Are we approaching a platform from which all will be seen as conscious?

 

OMG

[Govindaram]

Hare Krishna

 

From what I can understand from what you have wrote!

 

Susupti means unconsciousness (not fainting or what-not)

It means when you die (for a period of time, the soul being eternal)

It means when you are in your others womb for a period of time

 

I think they 'maybe' is a lot of meanings for it, like a lot of words.

 

Every one of us are un-conscious living entities, awaiting our souls(jiva-atma) natural influence to be exhibited, with the power/force of the Maha-Mantra and the bona-fide Spiritual Master......Haribol

 

[livingentity]

54) drstantam viirnvann indriyadilayena nirvikaratmo-

palabdhim darsayati

andesu pesisu tarusv aviniscitesu

prano hi jivam upadhavati tatra tatra /

sanne yad indriyagane 'hami ca prasupte

kutastha asayam rte tadanusmrtir nah //

andesu andajesu / pesisu jarayujesu / tarusu udbhijjesu / avini-

scitesu svedajesu / upadhavati anuvartate / evam drstante nir-

vikaratvam pradarsya darstantike 'pi darsayati / katham /

tadaivatma savikara iva pratiyate yada jagare indriyaganah

yada ca svapne tatsamskaravan ahankarah yada tu prasuptam

tada tasmin prasupta indriyagane sanne line ahami ahankare

ca sanne line kutastho nirvikara atma / kutah / asayam rte linga-

sariram upadhim vina vikarahetor upadher abhavad ityarthah /

nanv ahankaraparyantasya sarvasya laye sunyam evavasisyate

kva tada kutastha atma / ata aha tadanusmrtir nah tasyakhan-

datmanah <font color="red">susupti</font color>saksinah smrtih nah asmakam jagrad-

drastrnam jayate etavantam kalam sukham aham asvapsam na

kincid avedisam iti / ato 'nanubhutasya tasyasmaranad asty

eva susuptau tadrgatmanubhavah visayasambandhabhavac ca

na spasta iti bhavah / atah svaprakasamatravastunah suryadeh

prakasavad upalabdhimatrasyapy atmana upalabdhih svasra-

ye 'sty evety ayatam / tatha ca srutih yad vai tan na pasyati

pasyan vai drastavyan na pasyati na hi drastur drster vipari-

lopo vidyate iti //

54) Pippalayana further develops this metaphor, and shows how, with the merging of the senses, the unchanging atman is realized: "For prana follows the jiva wherever he may go, whether in eggs, fetuses, trees, or sweat-born creatures. When the senses and 'I'- consciousness have merged in deep sleep, then the immovable atman is free from its dwelling place, and (upon waking) we remember that." (Bh.P. 11/3/39) Here, andesu refers to creatures born from eggs, pesisu to those born from wombs, rarusu to those born from sprouts, and aviniscitesu to those born from sweat or heat. The verb upadhavati means "follows".

Having thus shown the changeless nature (of prana) in the illustration, he goes on to show the changeless nature (of the atman) in the illustrated portion of this analogy. How is that? The atman appears to be changing when the senses are functioning in the waking state, or when the sense of "I", made up of impressions from the waking state, functions in the dream state. When, however, one is in deep sleep, his senses and "I"-consciousness both merged, then the atman remains kutastha, i.e. unchanging. In what way? Asayam rte, i.e. free from its limiting adjunct, the subtle body. The idea is that it is unchanging since it lacks upadhis, which are the cause of change.

But when everything, including even the sense of "I", becomes merged, only a void remains. Where is this changeless atman then? To this he replies: "We remember that.We",i.e. the waking perceivers, remember that indivisible atman, the witness of the state of deep sleep, and say (upon waking): "I slept soundly for a long time. I wasn't awere of anything." The experience of the atman in deep sleep is such since there can be no memory of that which has not been experienced; it is hazy due to the absence of any connection with sense objects. This is the idea. It therefore follows that the atman, which is pure awareness itself, possesses th power of knowing, which is grounded in itself, just as self- luminous objects, like the sun etc., possess the power of illumination. As states in Sruti: "And when (in deep sleep), he does not see, still he sees, though he does not see objects of sight, for there can be no severing if sight from the seer.."(Br.U.4/3/23)

This is the third argument, based in the distinction between the categories of "witness" and "objects" witnessed". The fourth argument is understood in terms of the categories, "the sufferer" and "the repository of love"

[livingentity]

63) naimittikah prakrtiko nitya atyantiko layah /

samstheti kavibhih proktas caturdhasya svabhavatah // asya

paramesvarasya / svabhavatah saktitah / atyantika ity anena

muktir apy atra pravesita /

hetur jivo 'sya sargader avidyakarmakarakah /

yam canusayinam prahur avyakrtam utapare //

hetur nimittam / asya visvasya / yato 'yam avidyaya karmakara-

kah / yam eva hetum kecic caitanyapradhanyenanusayinam

prabhuh apara upadhipradhanyenavyakrtam iti /

vyatirekanvayau yasya jagratsvapna<font color="red">susupti</font color>su /

mayamayesu tad brahma jivavrttisv apasrayah //

sribadarayanasamadhilabdharthavirodhad atra ca jivasuddha--

svarupam evasrayatvena na vyakhyayate kintv ayam evarthah

jagradadisv avasthasu mayamayesu mayasaktikalpitesu mahad-

adidravyesu ca kevalasvarupena vyatirekah paramasaksitaya-

nvayas ca yasya tad brahma ca jivanam vrttisu suddhasvarupa-

taya sopadhitaya ca vartanesu sthitisv apasrayah sarvam aty-

atikramyasraya ityarthah / apa ity etat khalu varjane varjanam

catikrame paryavasyatiti / tad evam apasrayabhivyaktidvara-

bhutam hetusabdavyapadistasya jivasya suddhasvarupajnanam

aha dvabhyam

padarthesu yatha dravyam tanmatram rupanamasu /

bijadipancatantasu hy avasthasu yutayutam //

virameta yada cittam hitva vrttitrayam svayam /

yogena va tadatmanam vedehaya nivartate //

rupanamatmakesu padarthesu ghatadisu yatha dravyam prthi- vyadi yutam ayutam ca bhavati karyadrstim vinapy upalam-

bhat tatha tanmatram suddham jivacaitanyamatram vastu gar-

bhadhanadipancatantasu navasv apy avasthasv avidyaya yutam

svatas tv ayutam iti suddham atmanam ittham jnatva nirvinnah

sann apasrayanusandhanayogyo bhavatity aha virameteti /

vrttitrayam jagratsvapna<font color="red">susupti</font color>rupam / atmanam paramatma-

nam / svayam vamadevader iva mayamayatvanusandhanena

devahuyader ivanusthitena yogena va/tatas cehayas tadanu-

silanavyatiriktacestayah/12/7 srisutah/ uddistah sambandhah//

63) "Samstha, or dissolution, is declared by the wise to result from the essential power (of paramesvara), and to be of four kinds: naimittika (causal), prakrta (natural), nitya (necessary), and atyantika (final)." (Bh.P. 12/7/17)

Here, the pronoum asya indicates paramesvara, and the term svabhavatah means "due to His sakti". The mention of atyantika, or final dissolution, indicates that mukti is also included here.

"The jiva performs actions out of ignorance, and is thus the hetu, or cause, of the creation tec. of the universe. Some call that anusayin, while others call it avyakrta." (Bh.P. 12/7/18)

Here, the term hetu indicates the efficient cause; asya means "of the universe". The compound avidyakarmakarakah provides the reason: "since he performs actions out of ignorance". Some refer to this hetu as anusayin, emphasizing the conscious aspect, while others call it avyakrta, emphasizing its association with upadhis.

"That brahman, who is both associated with and distinct from the states of waking, dream, and deep sleep as well as the products of maya, serves as the apasraya, or ground, for the functions of the jiva (Bh.P. 12/7/19)

The pure form of the jiva is not explained here to be the asraya, since that would contradict Vyasa's experience in samadhi. Rather, the idea is this: Brahman, in his pure form, is distinct from the states of waking etc., as well as from the products of maya, such as mahat etc., which are conceived through the power of maya; but in His role as the supreme witness, He is associated with them. That is to say, though the apasraya is the ground (asraya) for the functions of the jivas, both in its pure form, and in its qualified form, as dwelling in the midst of these functions, it is all-trascending. This is indicated by the preverb apa (in apasraya) which indicates "abandonment", which is itself synonymous with "trascendence".

Therefore, Suta, in the following two verses, speaks of the pure conscious nature of the jiva, designated by the term hetu, as a means to revealing the true nature of the apasraya: "Just as a material element, is both associated with and distinct from the objects which it constitutes, made up of names and form, so is the At man both associated with and distinct from the various stages of life, beginning with inception and ending with death. When one withdraws the mind and goes beyond the three states (waking, dreaming, and deep sleep), either on his own, or with the aid of yoga, he realizes the atman, and refrains from endeavors." (Bh.P. 12/7/20-21)

That is, just as a substance, such as earth etc., is associated with objects, such as jars etc., and is also distinct from them when viewed without regard for its effect, so also the tanmatra, i.e. the reality, or pure consciousness of the jiva, is associated, through avidya, with the nine stage of life, beginning with conception and ending with death, and yet is, in itself, unassociated.

Having realized the pure atman to be such, one becomes indifferent and qualified to inquire into the nature of the apasraya. This is explained by Suta in the second of these two verses (Bh.P.12/7/21). Here, the "three states" are those of waking, dreaming and deep sleep; the term atman signifies paramatman. The expression "on his own" means "by inquiring into the illusory nature of things, as did Vamadeva etc.", and "through yoga" means "through the practices of yoga, performed by Devahuti etc.Refraining from all endeavors" means "from all endeavors other than the pursuit of paramatman".

[theist]

This is education. You know its easy to start thinking we know alot about spiritual life when we talk to the ordinary folks we meet in day to day life. It may be better though and more productive to compare what we think we know with what Jiva Gosvami has given us. Tends towards placing the situation in a proper perspective.

 

Dandavat Pranams to His Divine Grace Srila Jiva Gosvami. May the Lord be pleased to help us understand him properly.

[Guest guest]

is there more in his other works -

 

[Krsnanatha]

I am feeling the need for someone to toss me a life ring. These topics quite exceed my standard "kiddie pool" musings.