Guruvani Posted July 15, 2003 Report Share Posted July 15, 2003 We hear a lot of talk about ritvik being unprecedented in the sampradaya, though some Madhva scholars say that it has been done by Acharyas in the past. What we don't hear about is that neophyte gurus in the sampradaya is most definitely unprecedented as far as the history of the great acharyas are concerned. The actual sampradaya of Gaudiya Vaishnavism has a history of great Maha-Bhagavats, nitya-siddhas and svarupa-siddhas as the diksha and siksha gurus of the parampara. We have never heard about scandals and controversy in the history of the sampradaya wherein neophyte devotees have risen to the rank of acharya or guru to then fall down and bring disgrace upon the parampara. The Gaudiya sampradaya is traditionally a parampara of siddha-bhaktas and not the neophyte/madhyama gurus we have today falling down right and left. This very high and holy order of diksha guru is traditionally reserved for the siddha-bhaktas who have attained to svarupa-siddhi and are of the order of sat guru or the eternal order of spiritual master. This modern system of neophyte devotees functioning as diksha guru is for the most part a sham and a scam, meant for deceiving the uninformed and innocent newcomers who are so easily influenced and taken advantage of. Therefore, foreseeing that the tradition of the maha-bhagavata guru would be violated in ISKCON if his disciples prematurely become guru, Srila Prabhupada had to institute the ritvik system by the ORDER OF LORD KRISHNA, in order to insure that the tradition of the parampara of maha-bhagavats be continued in ISKCON. Talk about unprecedented? Neophyte diksha gurus is definitely a break from the tradition of the Gaudiya sampradaya, which is traditionally a parampara of siddha-bhaktas of the sad-guru order. A real guru in the sampradaya is a sad-guru of the order described by Srila Vishvanatha Chakravarti Thakur in the gurvastakam. If a person does not meet the criterian summarized in those verses by the Thakur, then he is not really a guru, rather he is a cheater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2003 Report Share Posted July 15, 2003 Last Link At The End Of The Line: Not debate, but following instructions is paramount duty by Prabhupada das vaisnavafamily@hotmail.com Posted July 14, 2003 Opposing parties are deeply entrenched in their arguments. No matter what evidence is presented, each party will dig in deeper to defend its position and attack the opposing idea. After years of debate between the "On-behalf-of vadi" and "As-my-disciple vadi" theories, neither party has prevailed. My conclusion is this: The disciplic succession is like a chain; one does not jump over the last link to be initiated by an acarya farther up the chain, saying: "I like Srila Bhaktisiddhanta; I will take initiation from him" or "I like Srila Jiva Gosvami; I am his direct disciple" or "Ah, I will avoid all controversy and take initiation directly from Lord Krishna!" Acaryas not physically present are called previous or predecessor acaryas. Their instructions are not to be neglected or minimized. To connect to the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya, one must approach the last link, not some other person. The people at the end of the line are (1) The disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta who are still physically present, (2) their disciples physically present, (3) their disciples personally present, etc. At this stage, no person can directly approach Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, Srila Gaura Kisora, Srila Bhaktivinoda or any acarya before these. The only people one can approach for initiation are physically present individuals. Instructions of previous acaryas are understood through current acaryas -- the last qualified links on the line. The personal examples of an acarya are also valid instructions. Srila Prabhupada accepted a physically present person as the last link, the person at the end of the line, who was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta. A person wanting to be connected by the "As-my-disciple vadi" theory must approach a disciple of Srila Prabhupada or one of that disciple's disciples if he or she, like H.H. Tamal Krishna Gosvami, is no longer physically present. The "On-behalf-of vadi" theory does not allow for anyone approaching Srila Prabhupada directly without reference to a so-called "ritvik priest". In either case, connection to the sampradaya is through the last link, the last person on the line. An uninitiated person cannot read Srila Prabhupada's books, perform a fire sacrifice and self-initiate as a diksa disciple of Srila Prabhupada, nor can such a self-initiated "diksa disciple" perform fire sacrifices as a "ritvik priest" and produce new diksa disciples of Srila Prabhupada. One must approach a person who has already received Gayatri Diksa from Srila Prabhupada, or a disciple of such a person. In essence, the argument between the "As-my-disciple vadi" and "On-behalf-of vadi" is moot. Where a person approaches the last link, the last person on the line, there is fire sacrifice -- one for Harinama Diksa and one for Gayatri Diksa. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta initiated disciples and Srila Prabhupada also did so with the Harinama and Gayatri ceremonies. Anyone connecting to the sampradaya via Srila Prabhupada or any descendent is duty bound to use his system. As described by Srila Krishna das Kaviraja in Caitanya-caritamrta, there is no difference between the Siksa Guru and Diksa Guru, other than the formality of the Diksa initiation. One who approaches the sampradaya in the "On-behalf-of vadi" mode must accept the "ritvik priest" as a siksa guru, listen to his or her instructions and follow them, as that person is a direct manifestation of Lord Krishna. Whether a person is a siksa guru, diksa guru or "ritvik priest", the transmission of spiritual knowledge is identical. When a person approaches in the "As-my-disciple vadi" mode, obedience and service is also demanded. The "As-my-disciple vadi" devotee thinks he or she is the diksa disciple of his or her initiating guru, and the "On-behalf-of vadi" devotee thinks he or she is the diksa disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Both "On-behalf-of vadi" and "As-my-disciple vadi" devotees are duty bound to obey and serve the diksa or siksa guru as a manifestation of Lord Krishna. The "ritvik priest" must act as a siksa guru and must thereby be qualified as one in advance of taking up the "ritvik priest" function. Attainment of the Lord's grace is in following the instructions of the spiritual master, either as siksa, diksa or "ritvik priest". It does not matter who performs the formal ceremony for connection to the Sampradaya, so long as that person follows the instructions of his or her spiritual master. If one of Srila Prabhupada's disciples is following his instructions, he or she is then authorized to make disciples all over the world; this is confirmed by Srila Rupa Gosvami in the first verse of Upadesamrita. Disciples posing as siksa guru, diksa guru or "ritvik priest", but not following the instructions of Srila Prabhupada [or their guru], are unqualified to do anything, and will cheat their blind followers. Of what use is a disciple of Srila Prabhupada who says, "I am a 'ritvik priest' and, even though I do not follow my Guru's instructions, the fire sacrifice I perform is potent enough to make you a direct Diksa disciple of Srila Prabhupada"? This is a form of sahajiya [making transcendence cheap] deviation, in which disciples, no matter what their standard of service, imagine that the fire sacrifices they perform have potency. The potency is in the fire sacrifice only if the perfomer is strictly following, just as the Deity is potent only if the pujari is pure. For a "ritvik priest" to be bona fide, his or her devotional standard must be at least that of a siksa or diksa guru [strict follower of one's guru]. All standards of qualification are based on following the instructions of the Guru. One who is not following the instructions of the Spiritual Master is not qualified to pass those instructions on by way of fire sacrifice, thus posing as a false siksa, diksa or "ritvik priest". Either one is following or one is not following! One who does not follow 50 percent of the instructions cannot expect a student to follow them. None of Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers were qualified to become acarya due to their disobedience of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's GBC instructions. Despite the fact that Srila Prabhupada praised them for "at least" following the basics and trying to preach, as well as asking for their forgiveness of any offenses at the time of his departure, he still forbade all of his disciples to have intimate association with them. Many of Srila Prabhupada's disciples who are not following his basic instructions are acting as siksa gurus, diksa gurus and "ritvik priests". Srila Prabhupada has demanded the following basic instructions from all of his disciples. Some of these were posted on the wall of the 26 Second Avenue temple. 1. 16 rounds daily 2. 4 regulative principles 3. morning and evening program 4. book and prasadam distribution (Hari Nama Sankirtana) [includes related projects BBT, BI, ITV, etc.] 5. Deity worship 6. disassociation from non-devotees 7. 12 festivals per year 8. establishment of Varnasrama College at each center 9. establishment of Gurukula 10. establishment of self sufficient rural communities 11. various support instructions [directions of management, marriage and parenting, personal comportment, etc.] 12. Cooperative conduct of the mission In nearly every case where a disciple of Srila Prabhupada poses as a siksa, diksa, or "ritvik priest", many of these instructions are not being followed or attempted. Before his departure he stressed the idea, "If you cannot expand, at least maintain". Nearly all so-called "expansion" has been undertaken on a platform deficient of these basic instructions. Current leadership has minimized these instructions, neglected them and inserted concocted ideas. What is the use of big, big temples supported by devotees who barely follow the basics of 16 rounds and four regulative principles? The gurukula system fell apart due to mismanagement, unqualified personnel and child abuse. There are no plans to re-establish it, so most parents send their children to public school. Varnasrama College was never established in the centers. Without proper training, the devotees cannot work to establish a Vaisnava civilization with dependence on Krishna, the land and the cows. Rural communities have never become self-sufficient. Without rural communities, there can be no progress toward independence from the surrounding mundane culture. Most devotees now work among non-devotees to support the Temple and those who live in it. Many such devotees do not chant 16 rounds, or follow the four regulations, and rarely attend morning and evening programs or engage in Hari Nama Sankirtana or any kind of preaching. Such devotees actually feel a certain pride of accomplishment in attending college, setting up a mundane career, opening a bank account, buying a home on mortgage, purchasing new cars, furniture, electronic gadgets, home accessories, lawn mowers or sports equipment, with full integration into the surrounding social structure, yet they feel they are representing the philosophy in a way that makes it palatable to others. Factually, they are karmis dressing up as devotees for a few hours each week, much like a costume ball. Krishtians! I challenge proponents of both the "As-my-disciple vadi" and "On-behalf-of vadi" systems to adopt the "Follow-the-instructions vadi" -- to spend their valuable time understanding and following the above instructions of a specially empowered acarya. This, rather than endless debate on a topic of virtually no relevance, must be the goal of life. At the end of life, how well one performed in an irrelevant debate or in a mundane career will have no value. Following the guru's instructions is the ONLY action sufficient for promotion into the eternal Goloka pastimes of Their Lordships Sri Sri Radha and Krishna. If there is any response to this letter, it will likely be directed to further debate on "As-my-disciple vadi" and "On-behalf-of vadi" systems rather than on how the instructions can be followed. That is the nature of illusion when it is allowed to enter the community of devotees -- a perfect instance of "Nero fiddling while Rome burned." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted July 15, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2003 I saw that article on Chakra already. I din't read it then and I am not going to read it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted July 15, 2003 Report Share Posted July 15, 2003 PrabhupAda: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating AcAryas. TamAla KRSNa: Is that called Rtvik-AcArya? PrabhupAda: Rtvik, yes. SatsvarUpa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and the... PrabhupAda: He's guru. He's guru. SatsvarUpa: But he does it on your behalf. PrabhupAda: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order... AmAra AjJAya guru haJA. Be actually guru, but by my order. SatsvarUpa: So they may also be considered your disciples. PrabhupAda: Yes, they are disciples. Why consider? Who? TamAla KRSNa: No, he's asking that these Rtvik-AcAryas, they're officiating, giving dIkSA. Their... The people who they give dIkSA to, whose disciple are they? PrabhupAda: They're his disciple, who is initiating. He is granddisciple. TamAla KRSNa: They're his disciple. SatsvarUpa: Yes. TamAla KRSNa: That's clear. SatsvarUpa: Then we have a question concer... PrabhupAda: When I order, "You become guru," he becomes regular guru. That's all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted July 15, 2003 Report Share Posted July 15, 2003 Long article. But just for conversation I'll raise a question or two. The disciplic succession is like a chain; one does not jump over the last link to be initiated by an acarya farther up the chain, saying: "I like Srila Bhaktisiddhanta; I will take initiation from him" or "I like Srila Jiva Gosvami; I am his direct disciple" or "Ah, I will avoid all controversy and take initiation directly from Lord Krishna!" A couple points that need to be agreed upon in these discussions, but i feel never will be are: 1. a consistent definiton for the word initiation so you know you are speaking about the same thing in the same way at any one time. 2.What consitutes a link? Surely its more than presently having a body and possessing a better memory of scripture and a more charismatic or dominant personality than those around you. Stop looking for the link with your eyes blind man.You know you must see by hearing with intelligence guided by Supersoul. Acaryas not physically present are called previous or predecessor acaryas. Their instructions are not to be neglected or minimized. To connect to the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya, one must approach the last link, not some other person. The people at the end of the line are (1) The disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta who are still physically present, (2) their disciples physically present, (3) their disciples personally present, etc. At this stage, no person can directly approach Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, Srila Gaura Kisora, Srila Bhaktivinoda or any acarya before these. The only people one can approach for initiation are physically present individuals. Again to find the current link you must know what a link is. Is it wise to call someone a link just because he might be the last offically intiated person around from a particular Math? One must be careful. There is that saying that a chain is only a strong as its weakest link. If you link up to a weak "link" should you feel very secure? Initiation again needs to be defined. Above we are admonished that we can't directly approach for initiation someone who is not physically present. How would we classify Vyasa's intiation by Narada Muni. He was present but not physicaly. If intiation means transmission of divya-gyan can't that be received through Prabhupada's books with Supersoul's guidance? Surely i don't need to go ask someone's permission to read Srila Prabhupada's books other than his himself and Krsna's. That's pretty direct. Anyway the main point is undefined terminology will always plague this debate because the keys words are used in different contexts' both innocently and to win arguments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2003 Report Share Posted July 15, 2003 of course we need a strong link... not weak if it is weak, it is surely better not to take shelter... guru is not bureaucracy the point is not initiation, the point is "questions and answers", a present (BONA FIDE/PURE DEVOTEE)guru is required because he can teach us considering time, place and circumstance reading books we can understand some generic matters but it is very difficult to apply on our lifes instruction given by srila prabhupada to jadurani or hamsadutta or jayapataka swami and so on i think that this is one of the subjects of bhagavad gita... arjuna objecting to krsna that he does not want to fight, is not irreligious, he is well versed in scriptures and tradition and he brings also good points..... (he shows clearly to have a good computer with a not cracked folio edition!!) but krsna acts as a true spiritual master giving apparently revolutionary instructions, against,at the first sight, moral and religious laws krsna is so revolutionary that even today many people say that hindus are not peaceful because their god wants the war!! as a paradox, for me, one of the features of a bogus guru, is that he does not change anything, going against the principle of opportunity, time, place, circumstance cristallyzing srila prabhupada is the worst service we can give to him, it reminds me something like lenin mausoleum in the moscow red square.........this sampradaya has to live, if we want to say that prabhupada is alive and actively preaching in this world i apologize for my language and i hope that you devotees are more able to read me, than me writing to you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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