Take the Vani but not the Vapu - Srila Prabhupada

[Guruvani]

At the very end of the Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita, Srila Prabhupada gives his concluding words.

In the first paragraph Srila Prabhupada says that we should take advantage of vani but NOT THE VAPU! The vapu feature of the spiritual master gives a very limited understanding of the spiritual master. If service to the vapu becomes the standard for serving and associating with the spiritual master, then the conception of eternal service and association does not exist and the spiritual master gets confined to a limited place in time and space. This goes against the teachings of the scripture that the real acharya is a transcendental person, who is not even of this world but is transcendentally situated in the spritual world. He only appears to be of this world, actually Prabhupada was manifesting himself from the spiritual dimension when we thought he was part of this world and nothing has changed for him. He was of the transcendental world then and he is still in the transcendental world. To think that he was with us then and not with us now is the vision of the spiritually blind.

 

Prabhupada's concluding words of CC.

 

Although, according to MATERIAL VISION His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhanta Sarswati Saraswati Thakur Prabhupada passed away from this material world on the last day of December, 1936, I still consider His Divine Grace to be always present with me by his vani, his words. There are two ways of association - by vani and by vapu. Vani means words, and vapu means physical presence. Physicial presence is sometimes appreciable and sometimes not, but vani continues to exist eternally. THEREFORE WE MUST TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE VANI, NOT THE PHYSICAL PRESENCE. Bhagavad-gita for example is the vani of Lord Krishna. Although Krishna was personally present five thousand years ago and is no longer physically present from the materialistic point of view, Bhagavad-gita continues.

 

 

This vani is not just a way for formally initiated disciples to associate with Srila Prabhupada, but it is a way for anybody and everybody to get initiated into transcendental knowledge directly by Srila Prabhupada.

Nobody has any monopoly on being a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, though some would like to infer such. Anybody can be a disciple of Srila Prabhupada by taking his vani through his books, tapes and videos. If one can directly associate with Prabhupada directly even today by taking his vani then what need is there for so much formality of initiation from persons that we only have some marginal appreciation for?

If you can be intimately associated with Srila Prabhupada by taking his vani, then you have all the same benefits and advantages of those who had association with his vapu and even more. Vani is more important than vapu. This is the most intimate and important connection to Srila Prabhupada and the formalities of initiation are secondary to that.

 

If initiated disciples can still associate with Prabhupada today through his vani then so can the whole world. If you have Prabhupada's association then you have sufficient guidance to become Krishna consciosness and achieve the goal of life.

 

The current link is Srila Prabhupada and to say otherwise is to say that vani is not a real form of the spiritual master.

[Guruvani]

If there were no books of Srila Prabhupada, no tapes and no instructions available from him, then the current link would be any living disciples who could provide that knowledge. However, vani being more important and intimate than vapu, the current link is still Srila Prabhupada and his vani form of instructions and teachings through his books that are available all over the world.

 

To say that Prabhupada is not the CURRENT LINK is to say that his vani does not exist and is not available to anyone.

To deny Prabhupada CURRENT LINK status because his vapu is not visible in an animated way, is to deny the legitimacy of vani as being a spiritual connection to Prabhupada.

 

The CURRENT LINK theory is very much alive and well through the vani of Srila Prabhupada. Anyone who says that Prabhupada is not the current link is a liar and a cheater out to take advantage of the innocent and vulnerable.

 

Prabhupada's vani is the current link in the most pure and pristine form apart from all the foolish cheaters who have so many impurities and imperfections in their material conception of CURRENT LINK.

[Guruvani]

Prabhupada's vani is the real initiation, even more so than any formal initiation performed by a ritvik or a successor disciple. The ritvik principle is only marginally referred to by Srila Prabhupada in the form of ISKCON administrative guidelines and is relative to ISKCON as an institution, but in no way is the exclusive and mandatory link with Srila Prabhupada. The vital living link with Srila Prabhupada is the link of vani. The ritvik system is a system of formal initiation into the ISKCON movement. It should not be equated with the importance and value of the vani link with Srila Prabhupada. The ritvik initiation is not the actual initiation by Srila Prabhupada - it is his vani. Through his vani Srila Prahbupada lives in his most wholesome and comprehensive feature that is beyond the scope of death.

 

Ritvik is an ISKCON ritual meant for inducting members into the society. It is not spiritual initiation in it's most vital and dynamic form. The most vital, dynamic and living form of initiation is receiving the vani of Srila Prabhupada. This is the teaching of Srila Prabhupada. Don't settle for substitutes of the real thing.

 

Anyone can accept a spiritual name and the instructions of Srila Prabhupada. Formal diksha via ritvik or otherwise is optional, external and for the most part irrelevant when compared to the indispensible necessity of taking the vani of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Don't let the cheaters get you!

[gHari]

Bhagavad-gita As It Is 6.6-7:<blockquote><center><font color="red">bandhur AtmAtmanas tasya

yenAtmaivAtmanA jitaH

anAtmanas tu zatrutve

vartetAtmaiva zatru-vat

</center>

bandhuH--friend; AtmA--the mind; AtmanaH--of the living entity; tasya--of him; yena--by whom; AtmA--the mind; eva--certainly; AtmanA--by the living entity; jitaH--conquered; anAtmanaH--of one who has failed to control the mind; tu--but; zatrutve--because of enmity; varteta--remains; AtmA eva--the very mind; zatru-vat--as an enemy.

</font>

For him who has conquered the mind, the mind is the best of friends; but for one who has failed to do so, his mind will remain the greatest enemy.

 

PURPORT

The purpose of practicing eightfold yoga is to control the mind in order to make it a friend in discharging the human mission. Unless the mind is controlled, the practice of yoga (for show) is simply a waste of time. One who cannot control his mind lives always with the greatest enemy, and thus his life and its mission are spoiled. The constitutional position of the living entity is to carry out the order of the superior. As long as one's mind remains an unconquered enemy, one has to serve the dictations of lust, anger, avarice, illusion, etc.

 

But when the mind is conquered, one voluntarily agrees to abide by the dictation of the Personality of Godhead, who is situated within the heart of everyone as ParamAtmA. Real yoga practice entails meeting the ParamAtmA within the heart and then following His dictation. For one who takes to KRSNa consciousness directly, perfect surrender to the dictation of the Lord follows automatically.

 

 

<center><font color=red>jitAtmanaH prazAntasya

paramAtmA samAhitaH

zItoSNa-sukha-duHkheSu

tathA mAnApamAnayoH

</center>

jita-AtmanaH--of one who has conquered his mind; prazAntasya--who has attained tranquillity by such control over the mind; parama-AtmA--the Supersoul; samAhitaH--approached completely; zIta--in cold; uSNa--heat; sukha--happiness; duHkheSu--and distress; tathA--also; mAna--in honor; apamAnayoH--and dishonor.

</font>

For one who has conquered the mind, the Supersoul is already reached, for he has attained tranquillity. To such a man happiness and distress, heat and cold, honor and dishonor are all the same.

 

PURPORT

Actually, every living entity is intended to abide by the dictation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is seated in everyone's heart as ParamAtmA. When the mind is misled by the external, illusory energy, one becomes entangled in material activities. Therefore, as soon as one's mind is controlled through one of the yoga systems, one should be considered to have already reached the destination. One has to abide by superior dictation. When one's mind is fixed on the superior nature, he has no alternative but to follow the dictation of the Supreme. The mind must admit some superior dictation and follow it. The effect of controlling the mind is that one automatically follows the dictation of the ParamAtmA, or Supersoul. Because this transcendental position is at once achieved by one who is in KRSNa consciousness, the devotee of the Lord is unaffected by the dualities of material existence, namely distress and happiness, cold and heat, etc. This state is practical samAdhi, or absorption in the Supreme.</blockquote>

 

 

But if we cannot control the mind, if we cannot meet Paramatma, then He sends His representative to instruct us externally (as per SB 1.8 lecture, Mayapura 74):<blockquote>So KRSNa, when instructs from within the heart, He is called caitya-guru. And that caitya-guru is expanded by the process, personal presentation of spiritual master. So both ways He is helping us. KRSNa is so kind. Guru-kRSNa-kRpA.

 

KRSNa is helping from within, but sometimes we are so dull, naturally, that we cannot understand. Therefore He sends His representative to instruct externally. So He is helping internally and externally. There is no difference between the internal and external instructor.

 

We should take advantage of this instruction. That is called vyavasAyAtmikA buddhiH, fixed-up resolution. Fixed-up resolution. If we become fixed up in this resolution, that "Whatever we have heard from my guru, the representative of KRSNa, I must execute. I do not care for my personal convenience or inconvenience. This is my life and soul," then your life is perfect. Then your life is... If I make some amendment, addition, alteration, in the name of KRSNa, guru, then it is spoiled. No. We should receive the instruction as it is, especially...</blockquote>

 

Guru-vani even with a good search engine can never match Caitya-guru. Guru-vapu adds that real-time interactive element that Caitya-guru always has. We need both since "sometimes we are so dull, naturally, that we cannot understand."

 

This is Krsna. This is Ksirodakashayi Vishnu. There is no problem for Him to provide full assistance from within and without, as we deserve or as He wishes. Countless perfected beings are vying to serve Him at every moment.

 

 

gHari

[Guest guest]

"Don't let the cheaters get you! "

 

ok, you'll not have me

[Guruvani]

Prabhu, you seemed to have missed the point in that Gita purport you just copy/pasted.

 

There was no mention of the vapu form of the spiritual master in that purport. What Prabhupada did refer to was the vani feature of the spiritual master:

 

So KRSNa, when instructs from within the heart, He is called caitya-guru. And that caitya-guru is expanded by the process, personal presentation of spiritual master. So both ways He is helping us. KRSNa is so kind. Guru-kRSNa-kRpA.

 

KRSNa is helping from within, but sometimes we are so dull, naturally, that we cannot understand. Therefore He sends His representative to instruct externally. So He is helping internally and externally. There is no difference between the internal and external instructor.

 

 

 

This purport and instruction is clearly referring to the instructions of the spiritual master, (his vani) and there is nor particular reference to his vapu - only his instructions(vani).

The vani of Srila Prabhupada is the personal presentation of the spiritual master that is sent to help us understand what Krishna is teaching. We call them purports by Srila Prabhupada. Or, can some neophyte disciples shed more light on the verse than Prabhupada's purports?

Or are you saying that we get knowledge from Prabhupada's body? no! We get knowledge from Prabhupada's vani.

[Guruvani]

YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY INTIMATE CONNECTION WITH THEM

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Pradyumna 02/17/68:

 

"Regarding Bhakti Puri Tirtha Maharaja, they are my God-brothers and should be shown respect. But you should not have any intimate connection with them as they have gone against the orders of my Guru Maharaja."

 

 

NO POSSIBILITY OF COMPROMISE

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Narayana Maharaja 9/30/69:

 

"Regarding the 92 section case against the Gaudiya Math, I don't think there is any possibility of compromise. Both the Bhagbazar Party [sridhar Maharaja's group] and Mayapur party [Tirtha Maharaja's group] have unlawfully usurped the missionary institution of Srila Prabhupada, and whenever they will talk of a compromise, it means another complication."

 

 

MY FOURTH-CLASS GODBROTHERS

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Hayagriva 9/14/70:

 

"Disturbance is caused by ignorance; where there is no ignorance, there is no disturbance. The four Sannyasis may bark, but still the caravan will pass. There is every evidence that they are influenced by some of my fourth-class Godbrothers."

 

 

THEY WILL BE ENVIOUS

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Yamuna 11/18/70:

 

"Regarding the Gaudiya Math, our position has nothing to do with them. They cannot do anything and if somebody does something, they will be envious. That is the nature of third class men."

 

 

MY GODBROTHERS GAVE ME ONLY DEPRESSION

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Gurudasa 8/29/72:

 

"Do not be depressed. All along my godbrothers gave me only depression, repression, compression--but I continued strong in my duty. So never mind there is some discouragement, continue with your work in full enthusiastic Krishna Consciousness attitude of service."

 

 

THEY HAVE ALL BECOME SUDRAS

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Niranjana 5/21/73:

 

"Our big, big godbrothers in India, they could not preach Lord Gauranga's name all over India. They are simply inclined to criticize me, that my students call me Prabhupada. They could not do anything practical and tangible. They are satisfied with a temple and a few disciples begging alms for the maintenance of the temple.

 

"So, we can understand that they have all become sudras. How can they have interest in Bhagavad-gita. Although some of them have been born in brahmana families, but by quality are all sudras."

 

 

GAUDIYA MATH BOOKS SHOULD NOT BE CIRCULATED IN OUR SOCIETY

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Sukadeva 11/14/73:

 

"Regarding the Gaudiya Math books being circulated there, who is distributing? Who is sending these books? The Gaudiya Math does not sell our books, why we should sell their books. Who has introduced these books? Let me know. These books should not at all be circulated in our Society. Bhakti Vilas Tirtha is very much antagonistic to our society and he has no clear conception of devotional service. He is contaminated. Anyway, who has introduced these books? You say that you would read only one book if that was all that I had written, so you teach others to do like that. You have very good determination."

 

 

THIS IS MY INSTRUCTION TO YOU ALL

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Rupanuga 4/28/74:

 

"In the latter days of my Guru Maharaja he was very disgusted. Actually, he left this world earlier, otherwise he would have continued to live for more years. Still he requested his disciples to form a strong Governing body for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He never recommended anyone to be acarya of the Gaudiya Math. But Sridhara Maharaja is responsible for disobeying this order of Guru Maharaja, and he and others who are already dead unnecessarily thought that there must be one acarya. If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected. So Sridhara Maharaja and his two associate gentlemen unauthorizedly selected one acarya and later it proved a failure. The result is now everyone is claiming to be acarya even though they may be kanistha adhikari with no ability to preach. In some of the camps the acarya is being changed three times a year. Therefore we may not commit the same mistake in our ISKCON camp. Actually amongst my Godbrothers no one is qualified to become acarya. So it is better not to mix with my Godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them. This attempt was made previously by them, especially Madhava Maharaja and Tirtha Maharaja and Bon Maharaja but somehow or other I saved the situation. This is going on. We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement, but they are very competent to harm our natural progress. So we must be very careful about them."

 

 

THEIR PROPOSAL FOR COOPERATION IS A MYTH

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Acutananda 6/8/74:

 

"You should not write anything to Madhava Maharaja's camp. You may have talked many things with Mangala Niloy but why write him in black and white. The letter must not be sent. Their policy has been all along to suppress me and take credit for himself. Their proposal for cooperation is a myth. They haven't done anything which is cooperative. You know in a recent article they managed to write in such a way that Madhava is doing the world movement and we are his subordinate. From the beginning that has been their mentality. So there is no possibility of cooperation with them. Rather you should avoid strictly meeting with them. They are not after preaching but material gain and reputation and adoration. Otherwise why they are non cooperating with me? So no cooperation is possible. Do not think or indulge in loose talks. Be careful always. Let us do the duty of propagation sincerely and seriously on our own principles. Krsna and Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura are our only hope and they and helping us. If anything thing has to be done it is to be talked on the higher level between Madhava Maharaja and myself, but I know his mentality is different and there is no possibility of cooperation."

 

 

SMASHED...ON ACCOUNT OF PERSONAL AMBITIONS

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Karandhara 10/8/74:

 

"In India some of the important members they have collected huge amounts in the name of the Society and spent it luxuriously. I wanted you all my experienced disciples should manage the whole institution very cleverly without any personal ambition like ordinary materialistic men. The Gaudiya Math institution has become smashed, at least stopped its program of preaching work on account of personal ambitions."

 

 

MY GODBROTHERS ARE CONCERNED WITH POLITICS

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Subala 10/15/74:

 

"My other godbrothers they are concerned with litigations, politics, and diplomacy, so what is the pracara? As far as I am concerned I have the blessings of my guru maharaj. I do not need anything else. That is how I went to your country, just to try to carry out his order. By his blessings it has come out successful."

 

 

THEY ARE NOT EVEN ORDINARY HUMAN BEING

 

Srila Prabhupada's Room Conversation with a Reporter in Johannesburg 10/16/75:

 

"Krsna sakti vina nahe krsna name pracara: 'Without Krsna's special power of attorney, nobody can preach His name.' Caitanya-caritamrta. So these rascals, Godbrothers, they are envious that... What he has written? Bon Maharaja. Just see what kind of men they are. They are not even ordinary human being. They are envious of me, and what to speak of make a judgment by estimation? They're envious. Enviousness is immediately disqualification of Vaisnava, immediate. He is not a human being. Paramo nirmatsaranam satam. This Bhagavatam is meant for the person who is completely not envious. That is the beginning. Why a Vaisnava should be envious for anyone? Everyone is working according to his karma. He is trying to rectify him, that 'Be out of these clutches of karma. You come to bhakti.' Why he should be envious? Vancha-kalpatarubhyas ca krpa-sindhubhya eva ca. A Vaisnava should be like ocean of mercy to reclaim the fallen souls. That is Vaisnava's qualification. So Vaisnava should be envious? Just see. So these persons, they are not even human being, what to speak of Vaisnava. Vaisnava cannot be envious. Vaisnava should be: 'Oh, my Lord's name is being broadcast. He is getting, giving so much service to make Krsna known.' That man has appreciated, that 'All these spiritual leaders, they are deriding. You are the only man... You are... It enthuses us, give us more encouragement, that you are keeping intact, love of Krsna.' This is an appreciation. Why he should be envious? He should be, rather, very much enthused that 'This single man is keeping Krsna all over the world.' And everyone is deriding. Even Gandhi is killing Krsna. Dr. Radhakrishnan is killing. Their only business is to kill Krsna. He is also doing that, our, this Bon Maharaja. He never speaks of Krsna. His rascal, that Institute of Indian Philosophy, nobody goes to [pass] urine there. We see practically. And our temple is always filled up, five hundred men. And he is trying for the last forty years. He is simply planning: 'This will be playground. This will be this ground. This will be this ground.' And it is becoming jungle. Still, he is so envious, black snake. So one circular letter should be issued to all our center, that 'Any Bon Maharaja or anyone, his representative, should not be received.' They are envious. Yes. Quoting that. We have got several complaints like that. Satsvarupa also complained. Sometimes our order was cancelled by Bon Maharaja's propaganda."

 

 

IN THE GAUDIYA MATH POLITICS IS STILL GOING ON

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Gurukrpa, 9/30/75:

 

"Why is there this politics? This is not good. If politics come, then the preaching will be stopped. That is the difficulty. As soon as politics come, everything is spoiled. In the Gaudiya Math the politics is still going on. My Guru Maharaja left in 1936, and now it is 1976, so after 40 years the litigation is still going on. Do not come to this."

 

 

ORDERS THAT ALL MY DISCIPLES SHOULD AVOID ALL OF MY GODBROTHERS

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Visvakarma, 11/9/75:

 

"So I have now issued orders that all my disciples should avoid all of my godbrothers. They should not have any dealings with them nor even correspondence, nor should they give them any of my books or should they purchase any of their books, neither should you visit any of their temples. Please avoid them."

 

 

THEY ARE DRESSING LIKE VAISNAVA, AND THEY ARE SO ENVIOUS

 

Srila Prabhupada's Room Conversation in Bombay 1/8/77:

 

"There are similarly men also. Unnecessarily they are envious, offensive, unnecessary. They cannot tolerate others' opulence. Just like our Godbrothers. They are envious. What I have done to them? I am doing my business, trying to serve my Guru Maharaja. But they are envious because I am so opulent. I have got so much fame, so many influence, so much influence all over the world. Everyone is praising me about... That is ignorance. And this is regrettable because they are posing themselves as Vaisnava. Ordinary man can do that, but they are dressing like Vaisnava, and they are so envious. That Tirtha Maharaja, unnecessarily he was envious, whole life fighting, fighting, fighting in the court and died. Simply planning."

 

 

THESE PEOPLE ARE ENVIOUS

 

Srila Prabhupada's Room Conversation in Vrindaban 5/24/77:

 

"If somebody thinks, 'Oh, here is a snake with jewel. Let me embrace him, no, no, no, it is very ferocious. Even it is jewel there, it is ferocious. Similarly, these people are envious. Although they have become so-called Vaisnava, they are ferocious. They have not acquired the qualification of Vaisnava. Simply vesopidin(?), by dress

 

[yasodanandana]

all disagreements with gaudya math are resolved by srila prabhupada before his departure from this world (as we clearly read in lilamrita), with his apologies for his critics to gaudya math, the invitation to the godbrothers to preach with Him in western countries, the homages of his godbrothers and the famous "you are not a patita.. you are a patita pavana" said by my guru srila bhaktivaibhava puri maharaja

 

you are simply quoting instructions given by srila prabhupada out of the context of all his complete preaching

 

and you are following an idea mainly based on something like a sudden change of preaching done by his divine grace on his last days in this world

 

criticizing iskcon or gaudya "living" diksa gurus is essential to sustain your "post samadhi initiation" theory

 

if there's the jagad guru srila prabhupada available, of course other diksas are bogus...

 

so your party is based necessarily on aparadha... otherwise it is very easy to choose between a real pure devotee or your concocted legend of a ficticious prabhupada initiating in samadhi and taking the karma of all people from 1978 to 9500 d.c.

 

preaching that vani is more important than vapu is good and correct.. but condemning vapu is a perversion!!

 

... i have tried to do my best with my bad english.. sorry

 

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[theist]

 

The vital living link with Srila Prabhupada is the link of vani.

 

 

Finally. That is why I believe it is best to just drop the now emotionally laden r word all together as it doesn't convey the essence. Just emphasize vani. That's complete.

That's,as you have pointed out, where the potency lies.

 

[theist]

you had to distract from your own nice presentation by posting those letters about the GM from the late sixties and early seventies.

 

The thing is about vani is that the same truth may appear from another source for another person other than the one the Lord in the heart has directed me to.

 

I'll try to come up with an example to illustrate. Pardon the inevitable flaws.

 

Pure devotee preaches and attracts many disciples.They proceed to spread this vani up to the level of their realization. Of these a handful internalize the teachings so much, receive them so completely, that the potency of that vani, finding fertile ground, takes root and grows the receipients consciousness to Goloka.

 

Some of his disciples become fully Krsna conscious.

 

Recognizing now these disciples as being qualified, by the potency of their guru's vani, by their own now awakened love for Him, the Lord in the heart may very choose to inspire new souls to the message to repose their faith in that person directly as His representative.

 

Nothing has changed in the disciple. His only desire remains to please his Guru Maharaja by serving and spreading his vani. But because he himself does this so nicely, Supersoul may now decide to inspire others to see him as guru and give that realized disciple added duties in the form of taking personal responsibities for some of their lives. Actually a large burden but he does it to please his guru and Krsna.

 

Now these realized disciples may appear to go off in different directions but they carry and distribute the same vani according to the time place and circumstance of the the lands they find themselves in.

 

It is the same vani being passed on. As I understand it, that is the parampara system. Very natural,perfect and unstopable. If it should appear at some point to be disrupted Krsna Himself comes, speaks His vani(bhagavad-gita) and it is revived again.

 

Now this tree has many branches growing in many directions but from the same trunk. For the branches of the same tree to war against themselves in ludicrous at best. Suicidal at worst.

 

Prabhupada's vani is self-effulgent. If we can, to our own measure, simply present that,then sincere souls will be attracted. But Krsna will not send a sincere seeker into an enviroment where vaisnava-aparadha is being spoken,just to have their fledgling creepers crushed.

 

I offer my prostrate obeisances unto all vaisnava's,from all camps, from the neophyte to the uttama, of all lineages that worship the Supreme Lord as the one chief eternal amongst all eternals.

 

How rare their presence is in this otherwise black pit of darkness.

[Guruvani]

We've all heard the argument that Prabhupada resolved his long standing bitter differences with his Godbrothers on his deathbed, but as far as his disciples are concerned we can see no retraction or nullification of his long standing position towards his Godbrothers.

 

Hearsay and innuendo is all there is to support this complete turnaround in Srila Prabhupada's position towards the Gaudiya Math and his Godbrothers.

 

Srila Prabhupada wrote about this matter in his books in several places. It is part of shastra for his disciples. What Prabhupada said to his Godbrothers on his deathbead does not change what he drilled into his disciples during the whole period of his leadership in ISKCON. He gave no retraction to his disciples and made no declaration that all his previous instructions were now null and void. What Prabhupada might have said to his Godbrothers in the end is not documented as any instruction he pronounced for his disciples. Where does Prabhupada say anything about his disciples should now reject all his previous instructions to avoid his Godbrothers? Year after year, Prabhupada reinforced the same instruction to stay clear of the Gaudiya Math and his Godbrothers, but we are supposed to believe that in the end he retracted all that and made a complete turnaround in his position?

Where is the authorized instruction from Srila Prabhupada to his disciples on this matter? There is none. All we have to go on is what he repeated over and over again for his whole tenure in ISKCON - to stay away from his Godbrothers.

 

Nothing has changed. A couple of sentences Prabhupada might have spoken informally to some Godbrothers in the end do not change what he wrote in his books and instructed his disciples with extreme emphasis for so many years.

 

Anybody that expects the disciples of Prabhupada to give up his long standing orders to stay away from Gaudiya Math and his Godbothers (except Sridhar Maharaja) because of undocumented, informal words he spoke to some Godbrothers are going to be greatly disappointed.

 

Prabhupada never said anything to his disciples about retracting his orders regarding the Gaudiya Math. His orders still stand until he gives orders otherwise.

The same goes for ritvik. Ritivk still stands until Prabhupada says it will stop. He hasn't yet.

[yasodanandana]

guruvani: "We've all heard the argument that Prabhupada resolved his long standing bitter differences with his Godbrothers on his deathbed, but as far as his disciples are concerned we can see no retraction or nullification of his long standing position towards his Godbrothers. "

/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

humbly i do not understand why you reject some instructions or statements and why you accept other ones

 

why disciples are not concerned by these lilas?

 

i do not think so

 

prabhupada is pure and krsna conscious in every circumstance

 

if you use this argument, also post samadhi diksa is a complete turnaround not documented in any book

 

and the famous "ritvik" conversation is official as the one made with the godbrothes, in the same place, with similar external health conditions, with a difference of a few days

 

(very catholic... the pope is considered not fallible only when he declares : " i am speaking EX CATHEDRA...(the throne of St.Peter)) /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[theist]

We all have to someday develop some internal vision and reason for ourselves in matters like this. Example:

 

A father tells his three year old child to never leave the yard. Then the father leaves this world. The child grows up to 16 yrs. but won't leave the yard because his father said he couldn't.

 

Intelligent child? You decide.

 

I have no first hand knowledge of what the GM memebers thought of Prabhupada's preaching efforts here in the West in those early days. I do know that they sure didn't help much. I have come to view that as Krsna wanting even further glory to go to Srila Prabhupada. Just my view.

 

But the point is people change. Are the GM members not allowed to see that they made a mistake and then change? And when they do they should be welcomed not have the temple doors shut in their face.

 

I am certainly not saying that Iskcon should be turned over to anyone but SP's disciples and in turn their disciples. but that whole issue is really not a matter for me. But a warm welcome, maha refreshments, raised cushion and the chance to speak a little Krsna-katha doesn't seem so out of the question.

 

Can you imagine Srila Prabhupada doing any less? I can't.

 

Someone then may be of ill motive. Then an independent decision should be made. But to make these blanket accustations and throw out Vaisnava ettiquite on such a whim is really offensive.

 

I heard His Grace Puri Maharaja when he arrived at Berkeley temple a few months back was openly begging pardon for not coming when Prabhupada was here. I wish I had been there myself. Maybe someone here was and can verify that one way or another.

 

Why are you trying to keep this wound open and not allowing healing to the larger vaisnava body to take place? What is your motive?

 

I don't expect an answer but hope you will ponder the question.

 

Hare Krsna

 

[yasodanandana]

"I heard His Grace Puri Maharaja when he arrived at Berkeley temple a few months back was openly begging pardon for not coming when Prabhupada was here. I wish I had been there myself. Maybe someone here was and can verify that one way or another."

 

i heard him personally saying like that in italy

 

a disciple (with not so much respect in this circumstance): "why you have not come in western countries with srila prabhupada?"

 

guru maharaja: "because prabhupada (some times he calls bhaktivedanta swami in this way) is a shaktiavesha avatara, i am a poor man, i am nothing... i was not ready to go with him"

 

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another nice thing is to see all this people full of proud for things done by srila prabhupada, if he's' everything, i am nothing, you are nothing, an iskcon devotee is nothing and so on

 

prabhupada said with the godbrothers, before leaving this planet, "if we preach together the "in all towns and village" verse will be true"

 

but ritviks have necessarily to sustain their theory with blasphemy, they are proposing only vani (half).. the intelligent disciple wants vani and vapu(full)

[Guruvani]

Yashodanandan prabhu says:

 

 

humbly i do not understand why you reject some instructions or statements and why you accept other ones

 

 

 

What instructions? What statements by Prabhupada to his disciples are you referring to? Please present these instructions and statements where Prabhupada retracted his long standing orders regarding Gaudiya Math and his Godbrothers?

I don't accept hearsay. Please show me the evidence.

 

p.s.

If you are not a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, you are free do to as you choose and accept any Gaudiya Math guru if you wish. I am referring to Prabhupada's instructions to HIS DISCIPLES.

[Guest guest]

You hide behind this gentlness of Krishna and use this website to vent your personal anguish on others at the drop of a hat.You are in the presence of a wonderful teaching,......use it .Put your finger on your anger and stop pointing YOUR finger at others.It's your life and only you can influence it positively.Use this chance...................................................................................I have a suspicion you'll use my thread to vent more of your negative, useless venom though and not take heartfelt advice.My best wishes are with you.

[yasodanandana]

i have not the english Lilamrita but it is very easy, search in the last pages the famous lila when prabhupada says "i am a patita" and bhaktivaibhava puri maharaja answers "no, i do not accept it, you are not a patita, you are a patita pavana".... it is very famous, perhaps every devotee knows this episode

 

for my comprehension (and maybe also for many of iskcon devotees... i have some official services in iskcon ) of what is prabhupada siddhanta i am a(n aspiring) disciple of prabhupada

 

and if it is not enough, if you are preaching a "post samadhi diksa" i can declare officially opened the "post samadhi siksa movement"... and i immediately take shelter in srila prabhupada as a sisya

 

hello dear godbrother!!

 

(prabhupada speaks to you and me also when he speaks to jadurani, jayananda, dr singh , father emmanuel, george harrison, srila puri maharaja, srila sridhara maharaja, gaura govinda maharaja etc... )

 

(the fact that you can possibly think that gaura govinda maharaja was a bogus guru, not allowing and preaching against ritvik system, drives me mad...... i hope i am wrong)

[Guruvani]

Yashodanandan prabhu says:

 

 

i have not the english Lilamrita but it is very easy, search in the last pages the famous lila when prabhupada says "i am a patita" and bhaktivaibhava puri maharaja answers "no, i do not accept it, you are not a patita, you are a patita pavana"..

 

 

 

Any how is that a retraction of Srila Prabhupada's instructions to his disciples? Where does Srila Prabhupada say that his disciples should reject his long standing orders to avoid Gaudiya Math and his Godbrothers?

 

It doesn't exist. This statement has nothing to do with Prabhupada retracting his orders to his disciples to avoid Gaudiya Math. There is no such order. It does not exist.

 

We can respect these Gaudiya Math Godbrothers, but that does not require an intimate connection to take their vani and diksha. They can do their own thing and ISKCON should do it's own thing and there should not be any effort to combine the two.

 

I am not blaspheming these Vaishnavas - just repeating Prabhuapda's orders on how to deal with them.

I respect them from a distance...... the way Prabhupada wanted it.

[Guruvani]

Besides that, the Lilamrita is not written by Prabhupada nor is it authoritative shastra.

Actually, Satsvarupa asked Prabhupada a couple of times if he could write his biography and Prabhupada forbade him from doing so. After Prabhupada passed away Satsvarupa wrote an unauthorized biography that has many errors and misconceptions about Srila Prabhupada portrayed in it.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja also explained that the title "Lilamrita" was improper as the term lila only applies to the pastimes of Krishna. The activities of the spiritual master are not lila. They are service to the Lila of Krishna/Mahaprabhu but not lila itself. Calling Prabhupada's activities as lila is tantamount to calling him the Lord Sri Krishna....... not proper!

[yasodanandana]

it is enough if you read the half page before and the next half page.. and you will find: "let us go together in western countries, in this way "prithivite.." will be true"

 

i am sorry but i have not lilamrita in english but if you are honest (and you are) it is very easy to find everything i said

 

neither my spiritual master nor me are going to be your iskcon temple presidents or gbc, so you are safe...

 

but "respect from a distance" is somewhat substituted (my english.. grrr) by the more recent statement by srila prabhupad that i have cited.... otherwise you have to explain to me how i can respect (=pay obeisances, calling you prabhu.. master) you and, at the same time, avoid to speak and listen by you

 

 

when i meet a devotee i recite the "vancha kalpa tharubyas ..." prayer... please translate it and explain to me how you can pray a vaishnava in this way then turn your back and go away or keep your doors closed.... or pay homages and keep distance

 

"you are like the desire tree, you can fulfill all my spiritual desires.." and i run away!!

 

not too logic for me, and said by srila prabhupada in special circustance dealing with neophites

 

i am curious of what do you think about srila gaura govinda maharaja...... i hate to put people in cathegories, but i have seen Him heavily criticized by some "post samadhi initiation" advocates

 

it is not a challenge at all, please let me know what you think

[yasodanandana]

ok .... if you are against lilamrita (even if this episode is not at all controversial, it is recalled also by other sources, iskcon and gaudya math, i have read it also in a iskcon collection made before lilamrita) i have no more arguments and documents

 

please accept my humble obeisances

[Guruvani]

Prabhupada established ISKCON in his own way and it is not compatible with Gaudiya Math. There cannot be a merging of the two. Gaudiya Math Godbrothers are not eligible for preaching in ISKCON. They can start their own international missions and I have never objected to that. They can do as they please but they are not eligible to preach in ISKCON.

 

Nobody said they can't do their own preaching, start their own temples and make disciples. They can do all that - just not in ISKCON..... that is the plain and simple design of Srila Prabhupada and nothing has changed about that. They are not welcome in ISKCON temples to come in and preach Gaudiya Math dogma.....to create disturbance.

[theist]

 

I respect them from a distance......

 

 

No actually you don't. You have taken some selected statements from old letters and published them on a site that is visible throughout the entire world. For what purpose? To keep a certain rift alive.

 

I don't think that is respectful behavior. Just my opinon. But when some of those people have now come and even shown up on the doorsteps of Prabhupada's Western temples asking to be pardoned for not doing more to help Prabhupada it seems that a real disciple of Prabhupada would be overwhelmed with tears at such humility.

 

Another point to consider is that many years passed until by Krsna's arrangement Prabhupada was able to fulfill Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's order to preach in English. Krsna is the controller.

 

I can see the point that there is no need to just mix it all up. Stick to Prabhupada's books. There is enough there for lifetimes of study as well as the directions and potency to take one home in a heartbeat, if one hears correctly.

 

The west has room and a need for thousands more Krsna temples and they needn't all be under the Iskcon banner. There may be slight variations in one's teachings relative to another but so what. Krsna will take people where He likes.

 

The real thing here is this aparadha will kill Iskcon in the sense that the viable essence of love for krsna will not take hold in an atmosphere where his devotee's are maligned.

 

You think you are protecting Iskcon but you are killing it.

[yasodanandana]

surely disturbing for ritvik dogma

 

(respect.. but they are not welcome.. strange.. it seems like an offence)

 

 

but what do you think about gaura govinda maharaja?

[yasodanandana]

"The real thing here is this aparadha will kill Iskcon in the sense that the viable essence of love for krsna will not take hold in an atmosphere where his devotee's are maligned.

You think you are protecting Iskcon but you are killing it. "

 

completely agree.... much more dangerous than a gaudya math devotee with a different opinion about carrots and waking up 15 minutes earlier for mangala arati