Lust

[Govindaram]

Hare Krishna

 

Bhagavad Gita As It Is

 

It is said in the Manu smrti that No amount of sense gratification can satisfy lust, just as a fire cannot be extinguished by a constant supply of fuel.

 

So what is the point of satisfying out Lust!!??????

 

[livingentity]

 

So what is the point of satisfying out Lust!!??????

 

 

None..no point..

 

just as a fire cannot be extinguished by a constant supply of fuel.

 

 

This is your answer. Satisfying lust only makes it grow stronger. Conquer lust, replace lust.

 

 

[I_love_krishna_]

Lust is part of our material body, as long as we are stuck in it we can't get rid of it. However we can keep it at minimum... I think.

[livingentity]

finer in it's place.

[I_love_krishna_]

I changed my post...it is quite hard to define how to handle lust.

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

 

SB 4.25.24

 

TRANSLATION

 

With the end of her säré the woman was trying to cover her breasts, which were equally round and well placed side by side. She again and again tried to cover them out of shyness while she walked exactly like a great elephant.

 

 

PURPORT

 

The two breasts represent attachment and envy. The symptoms of räga and dvesa (attachment and envy) are described in Bhagavad-gétä (3.34):

 

 

"Attraction and repulsion for sense objects are felt by embodied beings, but one should not fall under the control of senses and sense objects because they are stumbling blocks on the path of self-realization."

 

 

These representatives of attachment and envy are very much unfavorable for advancement in spiritual life. One should not be attracted by the breasts of young women. The great saint Çankaräcärya has described the breasts of women, especially young women, as nothing but a combination of muscles and blood, so one should not be attracted by the illusory energy of raised breasts with nipples. They are agents of mäyä meant to victimize the opposite sex. Because the breasts are equally attractive, they are described as sama-vrttau. The sex impulse remains in an old man’s heart also, even up to the point of death. To be rid of such agitation, one must be very much advanced in spiritual consciousness, like Yämunäcärya, who said:

 

 

"Since I have been engaged in the transcendental loving service of Krsñå, realizing ever-new pleasure in Him, whenever I think of sex pleasure, I spit at the thought, and my lips curl with distaste." When one is spiritually advanced he can no longer be attracted by the lumps of flesh and blood which are the breasts of young women. The word nirantarau is significant because although the breasts are situated in different locations, the action is the same. We should not make any distinction between attachment and envy. As described in Bhagavad-gétä (3.37), they are both products of rajo-guna (käma esa krodha esa rajo-guna-samudbhavah).

 

 

The word nigühantim ("trying to cover") indicates that even if one is tainted by käma, lobha, krodha, etc., they can be transfigured by Krsña consciousness. In other words, one can utilize käma (lust) for serving Krsñå. Being impelled by lust, an ordinary worker will work hard day and night; similarly a devotee can work hard day and night to satisfy Krsñå. Just as karmés are working hard to satisfy käma-krodha, a devotee should work in the same way to satisfy Krsñå. Similarly, krodha (anger) can also be used in the service of Krsñå when it is applied to the nondevotee demons. Hanumänjé applied his anger in this way. He was a great devotee of Lord Rämacandra, and he utilized his anger to set fire to the kingdom of Rävana, a nondevotee demon. Thus käma (lust) can be utilized to satisfy Krsñå, and krodha (anger) can be utilized to punish the demons. When both are used for Krsña’s service, they lose their material significance and become spiritually important.

 

[I_love_krishna_]

Thank you god /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guest guest]

From "On Leaving ISKCON" by Subhananda dasa (Steven J. Gerberg)

 

Sexy Celibacy

Most devotees will acknowledge that ISKCON's prohibition against "illicit sex" (any sex other than to conceive children in marriage) is the hardest of ISKCON's rules to follow, the cause of the greatest difficulty among devotees, and (with the possible exception of disillusionment with ISKCON per se) the most common cause of "fall-down" from Krishna consciousness.

 

Without debating the merits of celibacy in spiritual life, it's fair to say that the typical devotee, over time, is going to violate the celibacy rule at least once, if not multiple times. Desire for sex appears in every devotee's life sooner or later, to one degree or another, in one form or another. From the guru lecturing from his asana down to Bhakta Bruce cleaning the bathroom, devotees think about sex, fanaticize about it, relieve themselves in secret and, as is often the case, indulge in sex (with other willing devotees, old girlfriends or boyfriends, outside contacts, whomever) if they think they can get away with it. This rather obvious fact isn't openly acknowledged in the movement because it's a source of significant embarrassment to devotees, who view indulgence in sex as disgusting, disgraceful, and a sign of personal failure -- and, further, because they're forever boasting to non-devotees that their enjoyment of a "higher taste" is evidenced most conclusively by their disinterest in mundane sense gratification.

 

To be frank, there is something very sad, tragic even, in the spectacle of sincere spiritual aspirants endlessly struggling against and denying sexual feelings (which are, after all, perfectly natural if you're embodied), continually berating themselves for their lack of heroic detachment from the body, seeking dark corners in which to masturbate or, finding themselves "attached to" another devotee, planning and scheming "illicit" encounters. All this unavoidable cheating and hypocrisy, guilt and shame, denial and cover-up, make a pathetic sham of ISKCON's ascetical conceit. Granted, there are some devotees, small in number, who have a gift (if that is what it is) for serene, contented celibacy. But the mass of devotees simply do not.

 

After many years of monitoring my own and other's (through conversation and counseling) ambivalence about and mixed-success in following the standards, the whole celibacy fetish began to look a bit suspect. Why the abysmal failure of most devotees to be uncompromisingly celibate? Why the pervasive inability to perform an act of renunciation that ISKCON defines as a precondition not only of serious spiritual practice but of civilized human life? Why that fundamental failure?

 

Some devotees feel it's due to some innate deficit in the consciousness of Westerners (we're too lusty); others blame it on devotees' chronically flawed performance of bhakti-yoga (offensive chanting, etc.); a few contend that Prabhupada passed on Gaudiya Vaishnava practice imperfectly (by omitting certain necessary mystical elements in the diksha); some say it's a natural consequence of co-ed ashrams (and periodically suggest that the temples be rid of women); others blame it on the Kali-yuga. Whatever the cause, the fact remains that most devotees are nowhere near free from sex desire.

 

The result of the imposition of absolute celibacy upon those not sufficiently disassociated from their bodies is, as we've seen, the generation of great amounts of guilt, self-loathing, dishonesty and denial. "One day," we assure ourselves, "I shall be sufficiently Krishna conscious to be free from sex desire." Meanwhile, we remain within a physical body which, by its very nature, and in spite of chanting and the rest, desires to touch and be touched, to physically nurture and be nurtured, to feel the soothing embrace of a lover.

 

So strong is the natural human desire for physical touch that in order to avoid it, to successfully repress the desire for it (temporarily), one must paint the most exaggeratedly negative picture of it possible: one that envisions sex as a purely wild, disgusting animal act -- one of total, chaotic abandon, or of regression into panting, drooling, general disgustingness.

 

But think back to your own past, my dear devotee friend: when you made love with your girlfriend or boyfriend, husband or wife, was it all really just bestial humping and grunting? Did it have no connection at all to feelings of love, caring, respect, appreciation, affection? Certainly, like any other human activity, sex can be beautiful or ugly. It can be an act of gross, selfish, piggish abandon, or (as you will recall from your own past or envision in your imagination) an act of gentle, loving self-expression, of affectionate mutual pleasuring, even a source of profound feelings of emotional and spiritual oneness. It is only through deliberate denial of personal experience, or of intuition, that one can obliterate such memories, or pre-empt such capacity for imagining.

 

My purpose here is not to advertise the glories of sex (glorious though it can be), but to remind you of the problems associated with outlawing it -- and also to make the radical suggestion that perhaps it is possible to be a spiritual person, a God-conscious or cosmos-loving person, a person of goodness and compassion, of wisdom, sensitivity and awareness -- under whatever spiritual banner -- without denying and repressing one's natural sexuality.

 

 

[livingentity]

"When a living entity comes in contact with the material creation, his eternal love for Krsna is transformed into lust, in association with the mode of passion. Or, in other words, the sense of love of God becomes transformed into lust, as milk in contact with sour tamarind is transformed into yogurt. Then again, when lust is unsatisfied, it turns into wrath; wrath is transformed into illusion, and illusion continues the material existence. Therefore, lust is the greatest enemy of the living entity, and it is lust only which induces the pure living entity to remain entangled in the material world."

[Nimai]

I remember when I first got married, we wanted to follow all the regulative principles strictly. We were chanting 16 rounds and doing everything else that we were supposed to, but couldn't follow the no sex rule strictly. So, my spouse spoke to our guru, but found no sympathy from him, in fact the opposite. We then turned to our householder friends. Many didn't want to talk about it. But all the ones who did talk about it reported that they do not follow it. We were shocked!

Now it is thirteen years later, I can follow this rule with no problem. Why? Well, the spouse left and one of the reason that cause this splitt is the struggle to follow this rule. It was really a very hard struggle.

We wanted to be honest devotees, but it caused our marriage. So, before you start quoting more and more scriptures, be honest and admit the fact that all of you have problems with this rule. By the way, how many of you have sex (within marriage of course) only once a month and only to procrate? Let's us not all raise our hands at the same time.

I have a friend who just started Krsna Counsciouness. He asked me about this rule. I can be an honest with this friend and tell him my experience and other's experiences, or I can just quotes from the scriptures. What kind of friend should I be?

This friend is very extraverted and wants to know if this rule can indeed be followed or not. So, he has spoken about this to several of his closest devotee friends. Do you know what he found? None follow this rule. He was told that hardly anyone follows this rule.

So, we can go on and on quoting scriptures or we can be honest and admit our imperfections. Which one do you think God prefers? One who quotes from scriptures and pretends he follows them. Or one who knows the scriptures but admits he can't follow them. I think God prefers the honest one, don't you?

[Guest guest]

you are right... but the fault is not in prabhupada or in the scriptures.

 

There is an absolute goal (to stop our identification with the body) and relative steps done by the practitioner according his guna and karma

to divorce for abstaining of sex is much more sinful than doing sex between wife and husband

and it is most sinful because the lust of the man and the woman will increase in frustration or searching a new companion or simply searching easy sex outside the family

krsna consciousned is wonderful but it is personal

 

given the basic common principles, there's a particular way for each one

[Govindaram]

Hare Krishna!

 

Yes, but thats no excuse "for being weak", you think oh I am so weak I might as well not follow, 3 key things you need as said by Sanatana Goswami-

 

Determination

Enthusiasm

Patience

 

Haribol

 

[Guest guest]

one has to find (helped by the bona fide spiritual master) the right and sincere balance between too little or too much

 

Determination

Enthusiasm

Patience

 

are given by harekrsna chanting

[Nimai]

It is not Srila Prabhupada's fault that human beings cannot abstain from having sex only to procreate.

In fact, it should be a goal for all of us. But not to follow such an advance instructions is not being "weak." I think all sincere devotees try to follow but few are successful (if any). To find the right balance is the most sensible thing to do.

Nevertheless, let us be honest, if not with others, at least with ourselves. How can anyone have the gall of taking part in an fire sacrifice with the deities, the guru

and other Vaisnavas present and swear that he/she will not have sex with the spouse unless they do it to procreate?

How can anyone make a promise that they know they can't follow? That is cheating, cheating ourselves and everybody else.

Best to be honest about it and don't take initiation (I didn't maily because I knew that I couldn't follow it). If you do take initiation, it is because you think that you can follow it.

Even though I didn't take initiation, I was working hard for some day to do so. But I never reached that level of purity. That is because I still had relations with my husband, but not frequent. And I knew that that didn't qualify me to take initiatioand and I was honest about it.

After my husband left, I realized that while we are in this body, that regulative principle cannot be followed, not the way it is being taught. It is impossible!

To abstained from sex as much as possible; to do your very best; to try harder and harder, all those things are possible. But what they ask of us in order to take intiation, that is not possible.

What I was trying to say in my last post is that we are not truthful. We know Srila Prabhupada's teachings. They are very clear. Yet, we take inition and don't follow it. So, what I am trying to say is don't swear something that you can't follow. Especially in front of God and guru.

[Bhaktavasya]

 

Most of Prabhupad's initiated disciples were single brahmacaris and brahmacarinis when they got initiated and remained celibate until they got married, in many cases years later. The sex drive is very powerful while still in one's youth, and from what I experienced and heard from my Godsisters, it was usually the men who were brahmacaris for years, with pent-up sex desire, that insisted on sex outside the propagation of children, causing much turmoil within the marriages. Incidentally, Iskcon at one time had the highest divorce rate of any religious or spiritual group.

As for later falling down due to weakness, it shouldn't be seen as insincerity on the part of the devotees but proof of how strong the forces of Maya are. What to do? Give up KC altogether or keep chanting and praying to the Lord for the spiritual strength to remember Him, in spite of our failings? Dont' be so harsh in your judgement of devotees who didn't 'make the grade'. There have been leaders who were apparently strictly following all the rules and regulations but were cruel to the Vaisnavas and drunk with power. Rules and regulations don't guarantee that one will become automatically pure and selfless. We are advised to be hard as steel with ourselves and gentle as a lamb with others. Recognize out own failings and limitations but don't condemn others for not being perfect.

 

[I_love_krishna_]

We can't get over it. Its not possible unless there is absolutely no attachment to it.

 

But I think good devotee association and compassionate love and intimacy with your partner would have decreased the passionate love for the partner.

 

Like it has been said in Phsycology (sorry about the spelling)... when couples marry, they marry due to passionate love.

 

Passionate love is the first stage where there is more emphasis on bodily pleasure and there is the presence of extreme passion which is needed for the relationship to continue.

 

Second would be compassionate love, compassionate love is said to occur after a few years (7- and beyond) and this ensures deep caring and intimacy in between the couple.

 

In compassionate love, sex is kept at minimum, but there is more caring and love between each other.

 

If you deny sexual intimacy in the marriage then there is no caring that develops...

 

Anyway, the point remains the same, the sex drive in humans is highest in youth but it gradually decreases as we age because of the lowering hormone levels.

 

So, the best thing to do for a person would be to go and try to enjoy sex in marriage and that would result in the development of intimacy in the couple and also a realization.

 

The realization would be that even after having sex they are still restless. So, they will slowly crawl back to krishna after a few years of their marriage.