Everyone is serving Krishna?

[Guest guest]

Can someone kindly explain what Srila Prabhupada means when he says that the topmost devotee has to descend to the intermediate platform in order to preach, because the topmost devotee thinks or feels that everyone (including the non-devotees) are serving Krishna better than he himself. How is it that the non-devotees are serving Krishna?

 

Your humble servant, Forrest

 

 

[Guruvani]

Because the pure devotee sees that everyone is seeking pleasure. Nobody is seeking pain. Since Krishna is the akhila rasamrita murti, the reservoir of pleasure, he sees that everybody is serving and seeking pleasure. Pleasure is Krishna - Krishna is pleasure. In this way everybody in the world is serving and seeking Krishna. He sees everything and everyone acting perfectly under the laws of nature, the laws of God as obediant servants of the Almighty God.

[Guest guest]

[qoute]He sees everything and everyone acting perfectly under the laws of nature, the laws of God as obediant servants of the Almighty God.

 

 

[Guest guest]

actually maya is a krsna's energy

 

to be subjected by maya is another way to be under the laws of krsna

 

the pure devotee does not see maya separated by krsna, so he sees the servants of maya as krsna's servants

[Guruvani]

Because everyone is under the three moders of nature; goodness, passion and ingorance, they are serving God.

 

Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad-gita:

 

This divine energy of mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is very difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto me can easily cross beyond it.

ch.7 text 15

 

The material energy is a divine energy of God. Everyone is serving this material energy. In this way everyone is serving God perfectly according to the modes of material nature.

 

They are serving God in an indirect way. It cannot be avoided to serve God, everyone is, even if they do not want to. However, if a soul surrenders to God and serves him with love and devotion then he goes to the spiritual energy to serve God there in a spiritual way. In this world we serve God in a material way through the material energy of the three modes of material nature. By learning to love God and serve him spiritually we can become qualified to go to the spiritual world and serve him there in eternal bliss and knowledge.

[Guest guest]

Thank you Guruvani Prabhu And Guest Prabhu for your clarifications.

 

Your humble servant, Forrest

[theist]

I hope this discussion continues as i am not yet satisfied that this question has been fully addressed.

 

The answers are true, but is that it. Doesn't the Madhyama adhikari aslo see that everyon is seeking pleasure and having his desires fulfilled by Krsna?

 

Maybe its just me but I need to have this filled out a bit, if someone would be so kind.

 

Hare Krsna

[stonehearted]

Forrest: Can someone kindly explain what Srila Prabhupada means when he says that the topmost devotee has to descend to the intermediate platform in order to preach, because the topmost devotee thinks or feels that everyone (including the non-devotees) are serving Krishna better than he himself. How is it that the non-devotees are serving Krishna?

 

What Srila Prabhupada refers to here (and in the many places he makes this point) is the subjective experience of the most advanced devotees. Feeling themselves in a lower position than even straws in the street, advanced devotees feel themselves unqualified to approach Krishna. It's not an empiric fact that everyone else is serving krishna better than they. Rather, they feel that nothing they do could ever satisfy Krishna. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu expressed this same humility when He asserted that He had no love for Krishna, that if He had even a tiny bit of love for Krishna he would not be able to work so hard for the maintenance of the body. In fact, when He expressed this perception, He was immersed in Radha's feelings of love for Krishna. Indeed, when Srila Prabhupada discussed this verse, on at least one occasion he said that Radharani also feels, "I cannot give Krishna any pleasure, but these other girls can give Him so much pleasure." So she brings them to Krishna.

 

This is a lack of discrimination. On the lower stage, in the kanistha platform, we are unable to discriminate among different classes of persons because we have no real vision--we can't really see who's a devotee, who's innocent, who's envious. We can't even see God except as He is represnted in the temple or church. In the intermediate stage, we have come to know who is God, and we can discrimnate among His devotees, those who are innocent, and those who are actually envious of God, averse to His service, dyed-in-the-wool atheists. Based on this decrimination, we behave appropriately with each, offering loving service to God, making friends with His devotees, showing mercy to the innocent, and avoiding the atheists. One the highest platform of devotion, the devotees' natural humility makes such discrimination impossible (this is what we may call a healthy lack of discrimination, very different from that of the kanistha bhakta), so they generally withdraw from society altogether, immersed in their service to Radha-Madhava. When they are called on to preach, they adopt the discrimating perspective of the madhayama-adhikari so their preaching can be more effective.

 

I hope this helps a little. theist, if you have further questions that may spur more discussion, don't be shy. Your good questions force us to go deeper into whatever understanding we have been given by the grace of our spiritual masters. Forrest, I think we all feel grateful to you for bringing up such a wonderful topic.

 

Babhru das

[Bhaktavasya]

 

With great love and affection, the maha-bhagavata observes the supreme Personality of Godhead, devotional service and the devotee. He observes nothing beyond Krishna, Krishna consciousness and Krishna's devotees. the maha-bhagavata knows that everyone is engaged in the Lord's service in different ways. He therefore descends to the middle platform to elevate everyone to the Krishna conscious position." (Cc. Madhya 16.74)

 

Now, a maha-bhavata is in the uttama adhikari stage but is an uttama adhikari always a maha-bhagavat? It seems from this statement that a maha-bhagavat, out of compassion, descends to the middle platform 'to elevate everyone to the KC platform'. An uttama adhikari appears to be so 'blinded by love' for Krishna that, as Prabhupad says someplace else, "sees only his (her) beloved Lord everywhere".

 

Elsewhere in CC, Prabhupad comments on Krishna das Kaviraj's claims to be 'lower than the worm in stool' and explains that this is not false humility but that the on the top-most platform a devotee actually feels that way.

 

That everyone else is serving Krishna better than him or herself. Isn't there a quote from a compilation by Sridhar Maharaja (Nectar in the Lives of the Surrendered Souls?)that says something like;

 

"I've been cheated! Everyone else is going back to Godhead, and I've been left behind!"

 

It's understood that there are states of divine madness in the highest stages of love of God, so it's a good thing that most of us will not reach the stage of UA until we're getting ready to leave our bodies. Until then we can only try to catch glimpses into the mind and vision of an uttama adhikari.

 

 

 

 

[theist]

Yes we are appreciative to Sriman Forrest for raising this topic.

 

So this is what i have felt but never understood well enough to articulate it.(if I am now understanding correctly)

 

Some devotees rise up to the Madhyama position from kanistha but havn't yet attained the first class uttama platform. But they still can preach with confidence and authority from that platfom.

 

Some devotees who have attained the topmost uttama level of realization drop down to discuss these things for our benefit and then can return to their previous state beyond such discrimination.

 

Is this correct so far?

 

I am picturing the first class devotee preacher as being moved by Krsna in and out of these two top level states as the situation requires. Correct?

 

So from one angle can we say that Madyama-adhikaris can be seen as of two types, one having moved up from kanistha and another dropping down from uttama?

[theist]

Now Bhaktyavasa raises some even more subtle questions. This is getting very interesting.

[Bhaktavasya]

 

and for thanking Forest for introducing the topic.

 

[Guest guest]

 

 

kanista does not preach because he sees himself as the top most devotee and the others eternally entangled in the matter

 

uttama does not want to preach for the opposite reason

 

madyama preachs because he is between these two states of consciousness

 

for uttama everyone is a devotee, for kanista everyone is a demon.. madyam sees some demons and some devotees

 

kanista does not preach because he's proud, uttama does not preach because he's humble

 

uttama learns from more expert devotees, makes friends with other at his level , teachs to the less expert ones

 

when uttama has to act as a guru, he does not change the level of his consciousness, he remains uttama

 

but to teach is a typical madyam behaviour, he has to teach yama and nyama, sat and asat, right and wrong etc

 

but he remains uttama, when he has to correct a disciple he shouts and call this disciple "rascal", "nonsense" and so on, but in his heart he sees himself as the servant of that devotee

 

madyam, when he's teaching, he does it because he feel himself superior to the disciple, uttama not, he wants only to satisfy his guru who has given to him this service.

 

in our tradition the guru calls "prabhu(=master)" his disciple