about guru nanak

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

I have raed the part where Chaitnaya Mahaprabhu met nanak(founder of sikhism).

Sikhism clearly denies Vedas and does not accept Lord Krishna as GOD.Can anyone tell me whether nanak and Mahaprabhu had any debate on this issue.

Why was Mahaprabhu not able to convince nanak. I have read somewhere in sri guru granth that Lord Rama and Lord Krishna repented for calling himself as GOD when they died. Now this is a blasphemous statement that SGGS makes and is quite an insult.

[theist]

I hae heard many times that they met but read it nowhere myself. Would you please tell me where you read this?

[Bhaktavasya]

Gauracandra

Member

 

 

Reged: 06/17/00

Posts: 2520

Loc: US

Lord Caitanya and Guru Nanak [re: kbhakt]

02/28/03 12:03 AM Edit Reply

 

 

 

Here is something from “The Life and Times of Lord Caitanya” by Steven Rosen.

 

A sixteenth-century Oriyan manuscript called the Chaitanya Bhagavat says that Mahaprabhu met with the founder of Sikhism, Guru Nanak. The author, Ishvar Das, one of Mahaprabhu’s followers in Puri, was the only biographer to mention the event, perhaps because the meeting was brief and only the eyewitness devotees of Puri knew about it.

 

According to Ishvar Das, “Sri Caitanya, the Lord, joined in the kirtan with Nanak, who was accompanied by his disciple Sarang. Rupa and Sanatan were also there, as were Jagai and Madhai. They all engaged in kirtan, dancing in ecstacy.” (Ishvara Das’s Chaitanya Bhagavat, Adhyaya 61).

 

Ishvara Das continues: “In the congregational singing led by Shri Caitanya and Guru Nanak, Nagar Purushottama followed suit. Two disciples, Jangli and Nandni, also joined in. Gopal Guru, for whom Guru Nanak felt deep affection, was there as well, along with Nityananda Prabhu, who was considered an incarnation of Balarama. They all relished the kirtan at Jagannath Puri.” (Ishvara Das’s Chaitanya Bhagavat Adhyaya 64). Thus there are scholars in the Gaudiya tradition who are confident that Mahaprabhu and Guru Nanak resolved all religious differences in the holy name of Krishna.

 

There are scholars in the Sikh tradition, too, who have documented the meeting of Lord Chaitanya and Guru Nanak. Ganda Singh, for instance, says that the meeting actually occurred in 1510, during one of Mahaprabhu’s earlier trips to Puri. And Trilochan Singh fixes the date at 1512. Still others place the meeting at a much later date, perhaps 1518. Regardless of the disagreement over when the meeting took place, all these references acknowledge the historicity of the event.

 

***********

 

Interestingly, I did a search on Google for references to Krishna in the Guru Granth and found conflicting opinions amongst modern day Sikh preachers, while some others tried to show the harmonization of Hinduism and Sikhism through the writings of Gandhi and others.

 

Then I did a search on "Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Guru Nanak" and came up with this revelation from Gauracandra on this forum from 5 months ago!

 

It reminds me of devotees of both Hindu and Sikh religions sometimes try to focus on the differences, each one claiming superiority, while Sri Caitanya demonstrated how to harmonize various faiths and traditions by congregational chanting of the holy names.

 

 

 

[theist]

Thanks Bhaktavasya. That was great. I have never read Chaitanya Bhagavat. Can you suggest a good English translation for me?

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

Well then Mahaprabhu and nanak did not agree with each other. My point was according to nanak Krishna was not God. How did Mahaprabhu compromise on tis issue or did any of the Acharyas on Gaudiya Vaishnavism speak on this issue.

[theist]

Just because they chanted together may not have meant they had full agreement on everything.

 

Good lesson there as well.

[Guest guest]

When Guru Grantha Sahib was compiled, many works of saints belonging to Hinduism were selected. For example, saint-poet Namdev's 61 Hindi couplets have been included in this holy book (It is said that Namdev lived in Punjab for 20 yrs and local people referred him Bhagat Namdev). It is well known that Namdev's ishtadevata was the Lord Vitthala of Pandharpur. Similarly, saint-poet Raidas's (also known as Bhagat Ravidas) compositions are included, who worshipped Lord Rama. Had Guru Nanak felt that Lord Krishna was not God, then certainly his followers, would not have included the above verses in their holy book.

[gHari]

MARU, FIFTH MEHL, SIXTH HOUSE, DU-PADAS:<blockquote>ONE UNIVERSAL CREATOR GOD. BY THE GRACE OF THE TRUE GURU:

Abandon all your clever tricks; meet with the Holy, and renounce your egotistical pride. Everything else is false; with your tongue, chant the Name of the Lord, Raam, Raam. || 1 || O my mind, with your ears, listen to the Name of the Lord. The sins of your many past lifetimes shall be washed away; then, what can the wretched Messenger of Death do to you? </blockquote>

 

Well if this section from the Sikh book, Raga Mali Gaura isn't Gaurasundara, it is one incredible acintya coincidence; and if they ain't trying to describe Lord Syamasundara I'll eat me hat. And Gajendra! <blockquote>MAALEE GAURAA, THE WORD OF DEVOTEE NAAM DAYV JEE:

 

ONE UNIVERSAL CREATOR GOD. BY THE GRACE OF THE TRUE GURU:

Blessed, blessed is that flute which the Lord plays. The sweet, sweet unstruck sound current sings forth. Blessed, blessed is the wool of the sheep; blessed, blessed is the blanket worn by Krishna. Blessed, blessed are you, O mother Dayvakee; into your home the Lord was born. Blessed, blessed are the forests of Brindaaban; the Supreme Lord plays there. He plays the flute, and herds the cows; Naam Dayv's Lord and Master plays happily. O my Father, Lord of wealth, blessed are You, long-haired, dark-skinned, my darling.

 

You hold the steel chakra in Your hand; You came down from Heaven, and saved the life of the elephant. In the court of Duhsaasan, You saved the honor of Dropati, when her clothes were being removed. You saved Ahliyaa, the wife of Gautam; how many have You purified and carried across? Such a lowly outcaste as Naam Dayv has come seeking Your Sanctuary. Within all hearts, the Lord speaks, the Lord speaks. Who else speaks, other than the Lord?

 

Out of the same clay, the elephant, the ant, and the many sorts of species are formed. In stationary life forms, moving beings, worms, moths and within each and every heart, the Lord is contained. Remember the One, Infinite Lord; abandon all other hopes. Naam Dayv prays, I have become dispassionate and detached; who is the Lord and Master, and who is the slave?

</blockquote>

gHari

[gHari]

From a now nonexistent page from the web:<blockquote>At Sultanpur, Guru Nanak Dev used to go daily to Bein stream for a bath and to spend sometime in meditation. On one such occasion, he plunged into the stream. He remained missing for three days. According to Janamsakhis, "The Guru had a face to face talk with the Almighty, who assigned him with the mission of preaching the glory of His Name. Then God blessed him and commanded, "O Nanak ! When you look at anyone gracefully, it is not yours, but my graceful look. In other words, on whom you have benevolence, on him will be me benevolence. My name in the Supreme Brahma, the Supreme Lord; and thy name is the Guru, Permeshwar, that is the supreme Guru (prefect preceptor). "Guru Nanak Dev was taken in vision into the presence of God, where celestial music was heard. God pleasingly commanded Nanak to repeat the "Namm" and cause others to repeat the "Namm". So Guru Nanak Dev, the World-Teacher said, "There is only one God, True is His Name. He is the Creator, Fearless, Devoid of hate, Immortal, Not-Immortal, Self-Existent, by the Grace of the Enlightener. You can realize him. He is True one in the beginning; True in the primeval age; True He is, O Nanak; True He shall always be. " Guru Nanak Dev further said, "There is no Hindu, no Musalman", implying that the dividing lines between the creeds are unreal and false. So men must come under a sole universal creed, wherein lies no scope for the sectarian discord. People began to call him "Nanak Nirankari" - God's Nanak.

</blockquote>

[gHari]

Page 1016

Forgetting the Name, he dwells upon the Vedas; he writes, but he is confused by his poisonous corruption. || 5 || He is like the crop planted in the salty soil, or the tree growing on the river bank, or the white clothes sprinkled with dirt. This world is the house of desire; whoever enters it, is burnt down by egotistical pride. || 6 || Where are all the kings and their subjects? Those who are immersed in duality are destroyed. Says Nanak, these are the steps of the ladder, of the Teachings of the True Guru; only the Unseen Lord shall remain.

 

 

Page 1093

Wherever You are, there is no ego. O spiritual teachers, understand this: the Unspoken Speech is in the mind. Without the Guru, the essence of reality is not found; the Invisible Lord dwells everywhere. One meets the True Guru, and then the Lord is known, when the Word of the Shabad comes to dwell in the mind. When self-conceit departs, doubt and fear also depart, and the pain of birth and death is removed. Following the Guru's Teachings, the Unseen Lord is seen; the intellect is exalted, and one is carried across. O Nanak, chant the chant of 'Sohang hansaa' - 'He is me, and I am Him.' The three worlds are absorbed in Him. || 1 || THIRD MEHL: Some assay their mind-jewel, and contemplate the Word of the Guru's Shabad. Only a few of those humble beings are known in this world, in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga. One's self remains blended with the Lord's Self, when egotism and duality are conquered. O Nanak, those who are imbued with the Naam cross over the difficult, treacherous and terrifying world-ocean. || 2 || PAUREE: The self-willed manmukhs do not search within their own selves; they are deluded by their egotistical pride. Wandering in the four directions, they grow weary, tormented by burning desire within. They do not study the Simritees and the Shaastras; the manmukhs waste away and are lost. Without the Guru, no one finds the Naam, the Name of the True Lord. One who contemplates the essence of spiritual wisdom and meditates on the Lord is saved. || 19 || SHALOK, SECOND MEHL: He Himself knows, He Himself acts, and He Himself does it right. So stand before Him, O Nanak, and offer your prayers. || 1 || FIRST MEHL: He who created the creation, watches over it; He Himself knows. Unto whom should I speak, O Nanak, when everything is contained within the home of the heart? || 2 || PAUREE: Forget everything, and be friends with the One Lord alone. Your mind and body shall be enraptured, and the Lord shall burn away your sins. Your comings and goings in reincarnation shall cease; you shall not be reborn and die again. The True Name shall be your Support, and you shall not burn in sorrow and attachment. O Nanak, gather in the treasure of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, within your mind. || 20 || SHALOK, FIFTH MEHL: You do not forget Maya from your mind; you beg for it with each and every breath. You do not even think of that God; O Nanak, it is not in your karma. || 1 || FIFTH MEHL: Maya and its wealth shall not go along with you, so why do you cling to it - are you blind? Meditate on the Guru's Feet, and the bonds of Maya shall be cut away from you. || 2 || PAUREE: By the Pleasure of His Will, the Lord inspires us to obey the Hukam of His Command; by the Pleasure of His Will, we find peace. By the Pleasure of His Will, He leads us to meet the True Guru; by the Pleasure of His Will, we meditate on the Truth. There is no other gift as great as the Pleasure of His Will; this Truth is spoken and proclaimed. Those who have such pre-ordained destiny, practice and live the Truth. Nanak has entered His Sanctuary; He created the world.

 

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

My point was according to nanak Krishna was not God.

 

 

I believe your premise that Sikkhism denies Krishna is false, and thus it isn't possible to answer your questions. Throughout the Guru Grantha Sahib there are many references to Krishna through his various names.

[gHari]

Page 1054

|| 16 || 9 || MARU, THIRD MEHL: Serve the True Creator Lord. The Word of the Shabad is the Destroyer of pain. He is inaccessible and unfathomable; He cannot be evaluated. He Himself is inaccessible and immeasurable. || 1 || The True Lord Himself makes Truth pervasive. He attaches some humble beings to the Truth. They serve the True Lord and practice Truth; through the Name, they are absorbed in the True Lord. || 2 || The Primal Lord unites His devotees in His Union. He attaches them to true devotional worship. One who sings forever the Glorious Praises of the Lord, through the True Word of His Bani, earns the profit of this life. || 3 || The Gurmukh trades, and understands his own self. He knows no other than the One Lord. True is the banker, and True are His traders, who buy the merchandise of the Naam. || 4 || He Himself fashions and creates the Universe. He inspires a few to realize the Word of the Guru's Shabad. Those humble beings who serve the True Guru are true. He snaps the noose of death from around their necks. || 5 || He destroys, creates, embellishes and fashions all beings, and attaches them to duality, attachment and Maya. The self-willed manmukhs wander around forever, acting blindly. Death has strung his noose around their necks. || 6 || He Himself forgives, and enjoins us to serve the Guru. Through the Guru's Teachings, the Naam comes to dwell within the mind. Night and day, meditate on the Naam, the Name of the True Lord, and earn the profit of the Naam in this world. || 7 || He Himself is True, and True is His Name. The Gurmukh bestows it, and enshrines it within the mind. Noble and exalted are those, within whose mind the Lord abides. Their heads are free of strife. || 8 || He is inaccessible and unfathomable; His value cannot be appraised. By Guru's Grace, He dwells within the mind. No one calls that person to account, who praises the Word of the Shabad, the Giver of virtue. || 9 || Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva serve Him. Even they cannot find the limits of the unseen, unknowable Lord. Those who are blessed by Your Glance of Grace, become Gurmukh, and comprehend the incomprehensible. || 10 || The Perfect True Guru has imparted this understanding. I have enshrined the Naam, the One Name, within my mind. I chant the Naam, and meditate on the Naam. Singing His Glorious Praises, I enter the Mansion of the Lord's Presence. || 11 || The servant serves, and obeys the Command of the Infinite Lord. The self-willed manmukhs do not know the value of the Lord's Command. By the Hukam of the Lord's Command, one is exalted; by His Hukam, one is glorified; by His Hukam, one becomes carefree. || 12 || By Guru's Grace, one recognizes the Lord's Hukam. The wandering mind is restrained, and brought back to the home of the One Lord. Imbued with the Naam, one remains forever detached; the jewel of the Naam rests within the mind. || 13 || The One Lord is pervasive throughout all the world. By Guru's Grace, He is revealed. Those humble beings who praise the Shabad are immaculate; they dwell within the home of their own inner self. || 14 || The devotees abide forever in Your Sanctuary, Lord. You are inaccessible and unfathomable; Your value cannot be estimated. As it pleases Your Will, You keep us; the Gurmukh meditates on the Naam. || 15 || Forever and ever, I sing Your Glorious Praises. O my True Lord and Master, may I become pleasing to Your Mind. Nanak offers this true prayer: O Lord, please bless me with Truth, that I may merge in the Truth.

 

|| 16 || 1 || 10 || MARU, THIRD MEHL: Those who serve the True Guru are very fortunate. Night and day, they remain lovingly attuned to the True Name. The Lord, the Giver of peace, abides forever deep within their hearts; they delight in the True Word of the Shabad. || 1 || When the Lord grants His Grace, one meets with the Guru. The Name of the Lord is enshrined within the mind. The Lord, the Giver of peace, abides forever within the mind; the mind is delighted with the Word of the Shabad. || 2 || When the Lord bestows His Mercy, He unites in His Union. Egotism and attachment are burned away by the Shabad. In the Love of the One Lord, one remains liberated forever; he is not in conflict with anyone. || 3 || Without serving the True Guru, there is only pitch-black darkness. Without the Shabad, no one crosses over to the other side. Those who are imbued with the Shabad, are very detached. They earn the profit of the True Word of the Shabad. || 4 || Pain and pleasure are pre-ordained by the Creator. He Himself has caused the love of duality to be pervasive. One who becomes Gurmukh remains detached; how can anyone trust the self-willed manmukh? || 5 || Those who do not recognize the Shabad are manmukhs. They do not know the essence of the Fear of the Guru. Without this Fear, how can anyone find the Fearless True Lord? The Messenger of Death will pull the breath out. || 6 || The invulnerable Messenger of Death cannot be killed. The Word of the Guru's Shabad prevents him from approaching. When he hears the Word of the Shabad, he runs far away. He is afraid that the self-sufficient Dear Lord will kill him. || 7 || The Dear Lord is the Ruler above all. What can this wretched Messenger of Death do? As slave to the Hukam of the Lord's Command, the mortal acts according to His Hukam. According to His Hukam, he is deprived of his breath. || 8 || The Gurmukh realizes that the True Lord created the creation. The Gurmukh knows that the Lord has expanded the entire expanse. One who becomes Gurmukh, understands the True Lord. Through the True Word of the Shabad, he finds peace. || 9 || The Gurmukh knows that the Lord is the Architect of karma. Throughout the four ages, he recognizes the Word of the Guru's Shabad. The Gurmukh does not die, the Gurmukh is not reborn; the Gurmukh is immersed in the Shabad. || 10 || The Gurmukh praises the Naam, and the Shabad. God is inaccessible, unfathomable and self-sufficient. The Naam, the Name of the One Lord, saves and redeems throughout the four ages. Through the Shabad, one trades in the Naam. || 11 || The Gurmukh obtains eternal peace and tranqulity. The Gurmukh enshrines the Naam within his heart. One who becomes Gurmukh recognizes the Naam, and the noose of evil-mindedness is snapped. || 12 || The Gurmukh wells up from, and then merges back into Truth. He does not die and take birth, and is not consigned to reincarnation. The Gurmukh remains forever imbued with the color of the Lord's Love. Night and day, he earns a profit. || 13 || The Gurmukhs, the devotees, are exalted and beautified in the Court of the Lord. They are embellished with the True Word of His Bani, and the Word of the Shabad. Night and day, they sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, day and night, and they intuitively go to their own home. || 14 || The Perfect True Guru proclaims the Shabad; night and day, remain lovingly attuned to devotional worship. One who sings forever the Glorious Praises of the Lord, becomes immaculate; Immaculate are the Glorious Praises of the Sovereign Lord . || 15 || The True Lord is the Giver of virtue. How rare are those who, as Gurmukh, understand this. Servant Nanak praises the Naam; he blossoms forth in the ecstasy of the Name of the self-sufficient Lord.

 

 

[gHari]

Page 1098

|| 1 || FIFTH MEHL: Enjoyment of clothes and corrupt pleasures - all these are nothing more than dust. I long for the dust of the feet of those who are imbued with the Lord's Vision. || 2 || FIFTH MEHL: Why do you look in other directions? O my heart, take the Support of the Lord alone. Become the dust of the feet of the Saints, and find the Lord, the Giver of peace. || 3 || PAUREE: Without good karma, the Dear Lord is not found; without the True Guru, the mind is not joined to Him. Only the Dharma remains stable in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga; these sinners will not last at all. Whatever one does with this hand, he obtains with the other hand, without a moment's delay. I have examined the four ages, and without the Sangat, the Holy Congregation, egotism does not depart. Egotism is never eradicated without the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy. As long as one's mind is torn away from his Lord and Master, he finds no place of rest. That humble being, who, as Gurmukh, serves the Lord, has the Support of the Imperishable Lord in the home of his heart. By the Lord's Grace, peace is obtained, and one is attached to the feet of the Guru, the True Guru. || 11 || DAKHANAY, FIFTH MEHL: I have searched everywhere for the King over the heads of kings. That Master is within my heart; I chant His Name with my mouth. || 1 || FIFTH MEHL: O my mother, the Master has blessed me with the jewel. My heart is cooled and soothed, chanting the True Name with my mouth. || 2 || FIFTH MEHL: I have become the bed for my Beloved Husband Lord; my eyes have become the sheets. If You look at me, even for an instant, then I obtain peace beyond all price. || 3 || PAUREE: My mind longs to meet the Lord; how can I obtain the Blessed Vision of His Darshan? I obtain hundreds of thousands, if my Lord and Master speaks to me, even for an instant. I have searched in four directions; there is no other as great as You, Lord. Show me the Path, O Saints. How can I meet God? I dedicate my mind to Him, and renounce my ego. This is the Path which I shall take. Joining the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation, I serve my Lord and Master continually. All my hopes are fulfilled; the Guru has ushered me into the Mansion of the Lord's Presence. I cannot conceive of any other as great as You, O my Friend, O Lord of the World. || 12 || DAKHANAY, FIFTH MEHL: I have become the throne for my Beloved Lord King. If You place Your foot on me, I blossom forth like the lotus flower. || 1 || FIFTH MEHL: If my Beloved becomes hungry, I will become food, and place myself before Him. I may be crushed, again and again, but like sugarcane, I do not stop yielding sweet juice. || 2 || FIFTH MEHL: Break off your love with the cheaters; realize that it is a mirage. Your pleasure lasts for only two moments; this traveller wanders through countless homes. || 3 || PAUREE: God is not found by intellectual devices; He is unknowable and unseen. The followers of the six orders wander and roam around wearing religious robes, but they do not meet God. They keep the lunar fasts, but they are of no account. Those who read the Vedas in their entirety, still do not see the sublime essence of reality. They apply ceremonial marks to their foreheads, and take cleansing baths, but they are blackened within. They wear religious robes, but without the True Teachings, God is not found. One who had strayed, finds the Path again, if such pre-ordained destiny is written on his forehead. One who sees the Guru with his eyes, embellishes and exalts his human life. || 13 || DAKHANAY, FIFTH MEHL: Focus on that which will not pass away. Abandon your false actions, and meditate on the True Master. || 1 || FIFTH MEHL: God's Light is permeating all, like the moon reflected in the water. He Himself is revealed, O Nanak, to one who has such destiny inscribed upon his forehead. || 2 || FIFTH MEHL: One's face becomes beautiful, chanting the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and singing His Glorious Praises, twenty-four hours a day. O Nanak, in the Court of the Lord, you shall be accepted; even the homeless find a home there. || 3 || PAUREE: By wearing religious robes outwardly, God, the Inner-knower is not found. Without the One Dear Lord, all wander around aimlessly. Their minds are imbued with attachment to family, and so they continually wander around, puffed up with pride. The arrogant wander around the world; why are they so proud of their wealth? Their wealth shall not go with them when they depart; in an instant, it is gone. They wander around in the world, according to the Hukam of the Lord's Command. When one's karma is activated, one finds the Guru, and through Him, the Lord and Master is found. That humble being, who serves the Lord, has his affairs resolved by the Lord. || 14 || DAKHANAY, FIFTH MEHL: All speak with their mouths, but rare are those one who realize death. Nanak is the dust of the feet of those who have faith in the One Lord. || 1 || FIFTH MEHL: Know that He dwells within all; rare are those who realize this. There is no obscuring veil on the body of that one, O Nanak, who meets the Guru. || 2 || FIFTH MEHL: I drink in the water which has washed the feet of those who share the Teachings. My body is filled with infinite love to see my True Master. || 3 || PAUREE: Forgetting the Naam, the Name of the Fearless Lord, he becomes attached to Maya. He comes and goes, and wanders, dancing in countless incarnations. He gives his word, but then backs out. All that he says is false. The false person is hollow within; he is totally engrossed in falsehood. He tries to take vengeance upon the Lord, who bears no vengeance; such a person is trapped by falsehood and greed. The True King, the Primal Lord God, kills him when He sees what he has done. The Messenger of Death sees him, and he rots away in pain. Even-handed justice is administered, O Nanak, in the Court of the True Lord. || 15 || DAKHANAY, FIFTH MEHL: In the early hours of the morning, chant the Name of God, and meditate on the Feet of the Guru. The filth of birth and death is erased, singing the Glorious Praises of the True Lord. || 1 || FIFTH MEHL: The body is dark, blind and empty, without the Naam, the Name of the Lord. O Nanak, fruitful is the birth of one, within whose heart the True Master dwells. || 2 || FIFTH MEHL: With my eyes, I have seen the Light; my great thirst for Him is not quenched. O Nanak, these are not the eyes which can see my Beloved Husband Lord. || 3 || PAUREE: That humble being, who, as Gurmukh, serves the Lord, obtains all peace and pleasure. He Himself is saved, along with his family, and all the world is saved as well. He collects the wealth of the Lord's Name, and all his thirst is quenched. He renounces worldly greed, and his inner being is lovingly attuned to the Lord. Forever and ever, the home of his heart is filled with bliss; the Lord is his companion, help and support. He looks alike upon enemy and friend, and wishes well to all. He alone is fulfilled in this world, who meditates on the spiritual wisdom of the Guru. He obtains what is pre-ordained for him, according to the Lord. || 16 || DAKHANAY, FIFTH MEHL: The true person is said to be beautiful; false is the reputation of the false. O Nanak, rare are those who have Truth in their laps. || 1 || FIFTH MEHL: The face of my friend, the Lord, is incomparably beautiful; I would watch Him, twenty-four hours a day. In sleep, I saw my Husband Lord; I am a sacrifice to that dream. || 2 || FIFTH MEHL: O my friend, realize the True Lord. Just to talk about Him is useless. See Him within your mind; your Beloved is not far away.

 

[gHari]

|| 34 || 1 || 3 || SOOHEE, THIRD MEHL: The Dear Lord is subtle and inaccessible; how can we ever meet Him? Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, doubt is dispelled, and the Carefree Lord comes to abide in the mind. || 1 || The Gurmukhs chant the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. I am a sacrifice to those who chant the Glorious Praises of the Lord in their minds forever. || 1 || Pause || The Guru is like the Mansarovar Lake; only the very fortunate beings find Him. The Gurmukhs, the selfless servants, seek out the Guru; the swan-souls feed there on the Naam, the Name of the Lord. || 2 || The Gurmukhs meditate on the Naam, and remain linked to the Naam. Whatever is pre-ordained, accept it as the Will of the Guru. || 3 || By great good fortune, I searched my home, and found the treasure of the Naam. The Perfect Guru has shown God to me; I have realized the Lord, the Supreme Soul. || 4 || There is One God of all; there is no other at all. By Guru's Grace, the Lord comes to abide in the mind; in the heart of such a one, He is revealed. || 5 || God is the Inner-knower of all hearts; God dwells in every place. So who should we call evil? Behold the Word of the Shabad, and lovingly dwell upon it. || 6 || He calls others bad and good, as long as he is in duality. The Gurmukh understands the One and Only Lord; He is absorbed in the One Lord. || 7 || That is selfless service, which pleases God, and which is approved by God. Servant Nanak worships the Lord in adoration; he focuses his consciousness on the Guru's Feet. ||

 

[theist]

Those were very nice. I am left wondering though if there might be some tinge of impersonalism there. It may be just my very cautious mind misunderstanding. So I ask for some clarification.

 

This is the sentence that set off alarm bells. From page 1093 O Nanak, chant the chant of 'Sohang hansaa' - 'He is me, and I am Him.'

 

May be a false alarm as we are in one sense Him. Can this be clarified for me please.

 

What do the Sikhs proclaim is the ultimate goal?

[gHari]

Theist,

 

After some time I reached a tentative opinion that Guru Nanak was a personalist, although some of his followers may be or may not be (based on some less elevated web sites). This is the problem with words. We see the May 29th letter, and realize that the vani doesn't always cut it for everyone, and a schism arises. How nice it would be to have five more minutes of interactive clarification with the speaker. Five minutes - just enough time for you and I to get our asses initiated!

 

Nanak appears to talk sameness at times, yet difference in other places. Sometimes he even appears to talk formless, while at other times the Unseen God becomes seen.

 

BTW, I took the advice I gave you about chanting and Ratha Yatra. It was really great advice. Thanks. Sometime I'll have to recount the tale of the miraculous journey back to my cave in the jungle after Ratha Yatra and 108 rounds of japa.

 

gHari

[theist]

I'm not looking for that kind of initiation but would love to hear about your day at the Ratha festival. 108 rounds is one of my good weeks.

 

You must've been floatin' like a bumble bee aorund Krsna's garlanded neck or perhaps Radha's garden.

 

So his followers also have different opinions. This is a common problem to us all, with only the rare exception. We hear through our preconceived ideas.

 

So since I am not yet sure of his original intent, I will choose to hear vaisnavism.

 

Jaya Radhe

[dhaa]

http://sites.uol.com.br/disco_virtual/toqtoq/compartilhada/xikxa/xikxa02.htm

portugese version of bhaktivinods chaitanya shikshamritam

 

googles english translation: "...Our final conclusion is that Brahma-Jñana is considered pertaining to the fourth category of knowledge perverted on God. Sankaracharya, Astavakra, Dattatreya, Nanak, Kabir, Gorakhnatha, Shivanarayana etc. are considered the teachers of this category. The originary pure knowledge of the sprout of the knowledge The holy ghost is not this Adwaitavada..."

 

any1 have the english version?

 

 

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

Thankyou for your informative post. I am reminded of the following verses from Bhagavad Gita. Not that I know GOD, I wonder why people like Guru Nanak, Kabir, who are all quite evolved souls, do not know Lord Krishna truly.

 

Chapter 7: Self-Knowledge and Self-Realisation

 

The Supreme Lord said: O Arjuna, listen how you shall know Me completely without any doubt, with your mind absorbed in Me, taking refuge in Me, and performing yogic practices. (7.01)

 

I shall fully explain to you the Self-knowledge together with Self-realization after knowing that nothing more remains to be known in this world. (7.02)

 

Scarcely one out of thousands of persons strives for perfection of Self-realization. <font color="blue">Scarcely any one of the striving, or even the perfected persons, truly understands Me.</font color> (7.03)

 

[gHari]

dhaa,

 

Would it be possible to run a few paragraphs before and after that quote through the google english translator. I have been unable to find an english version of that treatise by Srila Bhaktivinoda. Very often short quotes like this leave one with a mistaken impression of what is actually intended by the speaker. I also have an interest in the follow-on ideas about the "Holy Ghost".

 

Merci, if you come back and can oblige me.

 

gHari

[dhaa]

"Would it be possible to run a few paragraphs before and after that quote through the google english translator."

 

u can do it here www.google.com/language_tools pretty straightforward instructions

[gHari]

The example of the illusion of the serpent for the rope is well insignificant, therefore to determine what it is rope and what is serpent, if the serpent to take the place of Brahman in the case, as will be possible the illusion if does not exist something as the rope separately? Therefore, in this in case that, Adwaitavada cannot be established. The same it occurs in the example of the shell for the silver. If the curd is the fermentation of milk and similarly if the world is the fermentation of Brahman, then the world is so real how much the curd. Here also Adwaitavada cannot be established. All the examples cited in favor of Adwaitavada are contrary to the reason. The reason fails when it goes to establish Adwaitavada. If the reason will be discarded, what more it will be useful to keep this opinion? If we affirm that the simple knowledge is the direction, also will be impossible. Therefore in the simple knowledge it has perception of the distinction, and the aid of the reason is looked to destroy this. If we affirm that Adwaitavada was instructed in the Prohibitions, this argument also will be fútil. Any Shrutis cited by the Adwaita Vedantistas to support its points of view, also contains simultaneously to seem duais. If it cannot show partiality in decision questions. If to consider carefully, we will see that the Prohibitions instruct on the knowledge of Achintya-Bhedabheda, i.e., inconceivable knowledge of the unit and difference, that as much Adwaitavada how much extreme Dwaitavada exceeds. In some parts of the Prohibitions the points of view are used words to support both, in order to calm them to seem conflicting. The fact is that the pure Adwaitavada is not the opinion of the Prohibitions. The Vedashastra is impartial and is an incarnation of the skillful knowledge. The Prohibitions do not prescribe no dogmatismo. Characteristic knowledge, Prohibitions, reason, normal perception, skillful knowledge, tests, direct or indirect knowledge, none of this apóia Adwaitavada. Only that they apóiam the this opinion is the improper wrong reason. But it will not have badly none to give credit alegoricamente that the Jiva if becomes Brahman when he is emancipated. When the Jiva if exempts of the coarse materialism, is with the vanity to have if become Brahman, but in this Brahman, the triple internal divisions as what it must be saboreado, who saboreia and the flavor, they will be the irresistible virtue of the person who is immersed in the Brahman. What it is Mukti, i.e., emancipation? Mukti is the period of training in which the Jiva that is essentially Chit if it becomes free of the coarse materialism. Mukti is a process of temporary work. Mukti is not accepted as Tattva for that they are perpetual free, therefore had never been in the captivity. Which the necessity of Mukti? Mukti alone is possible for who is in the captivity. It has two types of Jiva. This will be seen in the chapter on the determination of the pure knowledge. We cannot affirm that Mukti is a necessity of the Jiva, therefore is not an applicable principle to all the Jivas. Prema or Amor The holy ghost is the applicable supreme principle to all. Therefore, it is the only supreme necessity. Adwaitavada calls the Brahman as indiscriminate and unprovided of being able. Exactly if to say that the Brahman is indiscriminate, this is only for distinguishing the Brahman from material objects. This also is a special quality of the Brahman. If the Brahman does not have to be able, as is possible the existence of the world bred or the ilusório world as they say? When they express the opinion of that nothing beyond Brahman does not exist, then conclude lately that the power of Brahman is the origin of the empirical world. We go to stop to contradict Adwaitavada, therefore we have other excellent works in sight. Our final conclusion is that Brahma-Jñana is considered pertaining to the fourth category of knowledge perverted on God. Sankaracharya, Astavakra, Dattatreya, Nanak, Kabir, Gorakhnatha, Shivanarayana etc. are considered the teachers of this category. The originary pure knowledge of the sprout of the knowledge The holy ghost is not this Adwaitavada. The book would be voluminous if we were to decide on pure knowledge in details, and would have little space to decide on the perpetual virtue of the Jiva. Therefore, we only go to decide briefly on pure knowledge. The pure knowledge constitutes five types of perception: (1) perception on the Supreme Being or Last Reality, (2) perception on I of the Jiva, (3) perception on the proper virtue, (4) perception on its effect and (5) perception on the contradictions. It has three types of perception on the Supreme Entity: perception on Brahman, perception on Paramatma and perception on Bhagavan. The feeling in relation to an indetermined entity through the mental process, that is contrary to the perception on all the determined mundane objects, can be called Brahman. The Supreme Reality is auto-evident. The perception on the Supreme Entity appears through these three forms cited for the people who cultivate the knowledge. The Reality that appears for the mere exercise of the thought, of negative indetermined form and is Brahman. This is not an axiomatic truth on the Supreme one. Intellectual people who are free of the vicious thought of Adwaitavada, can have a rudimentary perception on the relation with God for this way. It can be called Pareshanubhava (perception on the Supreme one), but still is very poor and therefore she does not lead lately to the perpetual well-being. Rati (attachment) can appear in a certain level, but it does not have possibility to nourish this Rati due to relation lack. The great souls as Sanaka etc. that are become attached to this Rati are the example of Shanta-Rati. Perception on Paramatma is as the type of Pareshanubhava, i.e., perception on Paresha (Supreme Entity). The knowledge on described God in the discrimination of the third type of knowledge generates the perception of Paramatma when it reaches its apex. The name of this knowledge on God is Paramatma, that grants the fruit of the action to the Jivas in captivity, and is also the direct agent of all the works and is onipresente in this world. The contemplation or meditation in God prescribed for the Astanga-Yoga can be imaginary or real Incarnation of Paramatma. It is called of Purusha in the Shastras. The manifest Paramatma If in two forms, individual manifestation and universal manifestation. In the universal manifestation it is the Virat, adds total of the Vigraha (Personificação) of the world. In the individual manifestation it is the friend of the Jivas and inhabits in its hearts as the Purusha, of the size of a thumb. The practitioner of Karma adores Paramatma will have some indication on the true God in the line of the Karma (action). In a similar way as the Brahman he is reached in the final period of training of the thought, in the final period of training of the Karma, the practitioner if he finds with its adored Paramatma. Perception of Supreme Mr. Bhagavan is the third period of training and the final Pareshanubhava. God is the last reality that possesss all the qualities, is Almighty and has its proper characteristic form. No independent being beyond God does not exist, in the decision of Tattva or truth. It is Almighty. All the Jivas and Jagat [ universe ] had appeared for Its infinite and incommensurable power. The power is not different of the Powerful one. Jiva and Jagat being evolution or Parinama of the power of God, cannot be separate entities, if judge of the point of view of the root or first cause. If to judge impartially, to be able cannot be had as the powerful one. Therefore, in a impartial judgment, Jiva and Jagat are separate. We will not arrive at the final truth if Bheda (distinction) and Abheda (not-distinction) will not be accepted simultaneously. As this affirmation is possible and as it can be established rationally, the reply it is that this truth is enclosed in the Swarupa of the Gentleman. The contradictory virtues are reconciled in God, for Its infinite power that is inconceivable. The mental college of the reason of course is limited. To touch the truth basic is beyond the power of this reason. If for the desire of God, myriad opposing virtues, as immutability and change, distinction and not-distinction, incompreensibilidade but to be able of the devotion for understanding, imparcialidade but partiality with the worshippers etc., they can find reconciliation in such Vigraha, then why it is not possible to accept the simultaneous existence of the not-distinction characteristics and distinction in this Vigraha, of the point of view of the external judgment also? The ones that wants to establish disqualified Adwaitavada are so citizens the errors how much the ones that want to establish pure dualism. God, in Its auto-evident Vigraha, is separate of the entire world and the Jivas. It establishes the eternity and reality of all the Jivas (sensible) and all substance (insensitive) in virtue of Its proper one to be able. Therefore, the Prohibitions to the times pronounce words of Adwaita and other times, words of Dwaita.

[Guest guest]

BY SRILA BHAKTIVEDANTA NARAYAN GOSVAMI MAHARAJA

 

ENGLAND, Jul 28 (VNN) — Birmingham, UK: June 15, 2003

 

Guru Nanak is a guru who gave transcendental love and affection for the Supreme Lord. Arjuna Singh is in his dynasty, or guru-parampara, as we see there in his portrait. The Sikhs were originally Hindus, and they are still Hindus.

 

Their religious principle was to save Hindu and Sanatana-dharma from the clutches of the Muslims. At that time the Moguls, headed by Aranzeb and others, were very aggressive. Arjuna Singh led his followers in making a vow that, "If we will not defeat the Moguls and they do not leave India, we will not shave our heads and we will not shave our beards.

 

They took the vow symbolically on their hands, and therefore they wear a karha on their wrists. You should see this. [srila Narayana Maharaja points to their bracelets] They vowed to wear the bracelets "Until we bring Hindu and Vedic culture independence from the Mogul rulers." They are not separate from the devotees of India; they are followers of Sanatana-dharma; they also know that Krsna and Rama are the Supreme Lord.

 

Guru Nanak used to tell all these facts to his devotees everywhere, and they served everywhere. Arjuna Singh lost his two sons because they vowed, "We cannot accept Muslim religion." The Moguls put within a wall, and the wall was being constructed around them. When that wall became up to the sons' waists the Moguls said, "Will you accept?"

 

They replied, "Never."

 

Then, when the wall came up to their chests the Moguls again said, "Now you will have to accept."

 

They replied, "Never!" and when the Moguls then made the wall up to the sons' neck they said, "There is some time to change your mind; otherwise we will cover you."

 

Still they did not accept, and they were covered by that wall. How much great sacrifice the Sikhs performed for India, to save Sanatana Vedic dharma!

 

We are now here in their temple. They should save us and give us shelter so that we can preach Sanatana-dharma in the line of Guru Nanak teaching that Krsna and Rama are the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

By chanting and remembering the Supreme Lord we can be happy, otherwise we can never be so. This is the mission of our Sanatana Vedic dharma, of Guru Nanak, and of Arjuna Singh and his guru-parampara up to the present time.

 

Some mad Sikhs think, "We are separate from Sanatana-dharma and we should fight the Hindus. A few Sikhs of this nature want "Sikhisthan" or something like that. But there are so many intelligent and pious Sikhs almost all Sikhs are pious and intelligent.

 

Pure Sikhs continuously save Hinduism everywhere; so many thanks that they have given us shelter here, to preach our mission of Rama and Krsna, Gita and Bhagavatam.

My blessings to them, and my prayer to Krsna that He will be merciful to them and make them happy.

 

Gaura premanande!

[Guest guest]

 

Guru Nanak is a guru who gave transcendental love and affection for the Supreme Lord.....They are not separate from the devotees of India; they are followers of Sanatana-dharma; they also know that Krsna and Rama are the Supreme Lord.....

 

 

 

"...That is why every single living entity has a tendency to try just to get out of this world (nirvana). This is their disposition. Generally, all the jivas of this world do not naturally go toward bhakti. There are millions and millions of people in this world following a spiritual path, all of whom are like Buddhists. All are mayavadis. Otherwise, they are Christians and think God is the light. Even Muslims, Sikhas, Jains and all others ultimately think that God is not a person, that He has no form, and that there is no sense of service in that realm. Why? Because this is the nature of the jiva. Up until the point of liberation, even in the pure state, it is their nature..."

[Guest guest]

oops, disregard previous post, i accidentally posted b4 i finished