what I appreciate about ISKCON gurus and the GBC

[Guruvani]

Though I personally prefer the ritvik concept for ISKCON, as I think that only the ritvik concept can make ISKCON thrive and prosper as it was envisioned to do, I would like to express a few positive appreciations for what it is I admire about the GBC and the ISKCON gurus.

 

What I like most about the GBC and the ISCKON gurus is that they are almost cent percent exclusively devoted to Srila Prabhupada and his books. In todays movement we have so many disciples of Srila Prabhupada who have gone outside Prabhupada's siksha to take siksha from a number of Gaudiya Math type sannyasis and other similar offshoots of the Gaudiya Math.

 

I have personally been one of them. I was amongst the earliest group of devotees in ISCKON to leave ISKCON and join the group of followers of Sridhar Maharaja. I was the first pujari and the head cook at his first western temple in San Jose, California.

 

I have to admit that I have some serious affection and appreciation for the teachings of Srila Sridhar Maharaja, though I have never been a proponent of trying to introduce his books or siksha into ISKCON.

 

Over the years I have realized that there really is none except Srila Prabhupada who has the insight and vision of leading ISKCON. Sridhar Maharaja was a man of his own tattva as was Srila Prabhupada. They are both outstanding in their own ways but even though I admire Srila Sridhar Maharaja, Govinda Maharaja and some of the other Gaudiya Math type devotees (even Narayana Maharaja), I don't think that there is anyone other than Srila Prabhupada who should have any input into the management and leadership of ISCKON.

 

For example, in Sridhar Maharaja's Math there are many rigid principles of smriti that Prabhupada did not introduce in ISCKON like no eating of carrots etc. etc.

I remember than in ISKCON carrots were a staple in the vegetables used in making subjis (though I personally don't cook with carrots myself). In Sridhar Maharaja's Math it is a sin to eat carrots and several other things that Prabhupada allowed for ISKCON. I personally see most of these types of principles in Sridhar Maharaja's Math as conforming to some smriti principles that are practiced in smarta-brahmin lines and since Sridhar Maharaja was from a brahmin family he was obliged to maintain some of these smriti principles as a way of earning the respect of the smarta-brahmin community who also should be brought into Krishna consciousness. Sridhar Maharaja was in a position of trying to make Krishna consciousness respectable in the eyes of the smarta-brahmin community and so he applied some of the smriti principles in his Math.

 

Sridhar Maharaja also does not observe Julan-yatra or allow rasa-lila to be shown in portrait etc. etc. He is very conservative in regards to maintaining the sacredness of these things and does not like that such things be made so cheap or public.

 

In this way, Sridhar Maharaja and the other Gaudiya Math type devotees are not good candidates for ISKCON leadership.

They most all maintain some kind of smriti dogma that Srila Prabhupada renounced in adapting Krishna consciousness to the western countries.

 

So, this is what I appreciate about the ISCKON gurus though I don't beleive that ISCKON will ever really succeed or prosper without the revival of the ritvik system.

 

ISCKON gurus are chaste and loyal to Srila Prabhupada's teachings and this is their great redeeming quality. They are mostly all purebred Prabhupada men and I admire this feature about the GBC and ISCKON. I don't think that any Gaudiya Math type acharya or sannyasis should be allowed to have any input into the affairs of ISKCON - not even Sridhar Maharaja. We can see that he somewhat encouraged the guru fiasco in the days of the ritvik conspiracy and we can see the results of that. Though that does not diminish my appreciation for the greateness and glories of Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Srila Prabhupada pointed out that Sridhar Maharaja was similarly involved in the failed successor acharya movement after the passing of BSSGM. History repeats itself in this regard.

 

So, my hat is off to the ISCKON gurus and the GBC for trying to maintain a strictly Prabhupada oriented leadership over ISCKON. The guru fiasco in ISKCON was the result of deviating from that principle somewhat and taking too much input from outside sources like Sridhar Maharaja and Narayana Maharaja etc. If they would have just stayed with the guidance that Prabhupada gave and the ritvik system he left ISKCON with, the movement would today be a lot better off and much more successful in fullfilling the goals of Srila Prabhupada.

 

What we have to realize now is that the guru system in ISCKON today is the result of going outside Prabhupada to these Gaudiya Math type sadhus for guidance and leadership.

Prabhupada left us with a ritvik system and it was due to the influence of outside sources like Narayana Maharaja and Sridhar Maharaja that the ritvik system was abandoned by the ritviks and the GBC.

 

If the GBC and the gurus of ISKCON want to truly be able to claim exclusive and pure following of Srila Prabhupada, then they will have to resort back to the ritvik system that Srila Prabhupada left is with. The guru system in ISKCON is the product of disobeying Prabhupada and taking guidance from the smriti sadhus of the Gaudiya Math. It is not the brainchild of Srila Prabhupada.

 

So, this is my praise of the ISKCON GBC and the gurus that for the most part they are followers of Srila Prabhupada and his books to the exclusion of so many Gaudiya Math type sadhus and gurus, with the exception to the gurus system in ISKCON which is in place due to the influence and input of these Gaudiya Math sadhus who have no vision or understanding of how and why ritvik is necessary and vital for the success of Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON society.

 

My hope and prayer is that the GBC will see the error of this gurus system in ISCKON and abandon the smriti dogma that has caused this breakdown in the progess of ISKCON.

 

If they want to truly be able to claim that they are pure followers of Prabhupada and not the Gaudiya Math, then they must revive the ritvik system in ISKCON or forever face the scorn and ridicule of so many disciples of Prabhupada who know the truth about Prabhupada and his ritvik system for ISCKON.

[theist]

>>Though I personally prefer the ritvik concept for ISKCON, as I think that only the ritvik concept can make ISKCON thrive and prosper as it was envisioned to do, I would like to express a few positive appreciations for what it is I admire about the GBC and the ISKCON gurus.<<

 

I am curious as to why the ritviks don't just operate separately in their own fashion and let the current Iskcon set up do the same. I think maybe there have been some attempts at this and I hope some are successful.

 

Just concentrate on the Prabhupada vani and forget about what the other branches and Mathas may be doing. By taking such a strident stance against other missions and ridiculing their teachers some (or many) ritviks are cancelling out the good effects of that Prabhupada vani. Aparadha is not Prabhupada vani. The two don't mix.

 

You want to concentrate on Prabhupada and bring new people into his fold, then just do it. It's a wonderful thing. It is such a positive thing and stands on its own merit that it doesn't need to be held up by criticizing others.

 

Trust that Supersoul will direct souls to the association that is appropriate for them.

 

I don't know about the rituals and formal rites that ritviks may perform that supposedly link the aspirant to Prabhupada, I think his teaching do that if followed, but it doesn't seem really harmful for them to make a public promise to Prabhupada as long as its explained that the potency is in the teachings and not just the ritual.

 

Prabhupada vani centers minus the politics; let them be on every street. How could Krsna not be pleased.

 

>>What I like most about the GBC and the ISCKON gurus is that they are almost cent percent exclusively devoted to Srila Prabhupada and his books. In todays movement we have so many disciples of Srila Prabhupada who have gone outside Prabhupada's siksha to take siksha from a number of Gaudiya Math type sannyasis and other similar offshoots of the Gaudiya Math.<<

 

Yes and they are also writing their own books. Good or Bad idea? I think good because its in line with Prabhupada's desire. And what of their students who find light in their writings? Why should they feel they have to stifle their appreciation for what their teacher has passed on to them? in some case become some Prabhupada disciple may become upset.

 

There has to be some mutual respect and tolerance. Krsna reveals Himself as He wills and through whom He wills.

 

>>I have to admit that I have some serious affection and appreciation for the teachings of Srila Sridhar Maharaja, though I have never been a proponent of trying to introduce his books or siksha into ISKCON.<<

 

Seems natural. His books are a beacon of transcendental light it seems to me. No need to try to indroduce something that may disturb the minds of others. People can find his books easy enough. On the other hand no one should be made to feel they have to hide his books when others come to their homes.

 

>>Over the years I have realized that there really is none except Srila Prabhupada who has the insight and vision of leading ISKCON. Sridhar Maharaja was a man of his own tattva as was Srila Prabhupada. They are both outstanding in their own ways but even though I admire Srila Sridhar Maharaja, Govinda Maharaja and some of the other Gaudiya Math type devotees (even Narayana Maharaja), I don't think that there is anyone other than Srila Prabhupada who should have any input into the management and leadership of ISCKON.<<

 

I agree. It's still his institution.

 

>>For example, in Sridhar Maharaja's Math there are many rigid principles of smriti that Prabhupada did not introduce in ISCKON like no eating of carrots etc. etc.

I remember than in ISKCON carrots were a staple in the vegetables used in making subjis (though I personally don't cook with carrots myself). In Sridhar Maharaja's Math it is a sin to eat carrots and several other things that Prabhupada allowed for ISKCON. I personally see most of these types of principles in Sridhar Maharaja's Math as conforming to some smriti principles that are practiced in smarta-brahmin lines and since Sridhar Maharaja was from a brahmin family he was obliged to maintain some of these smriti principles as a way of earning the respect of the smarta-brahmin community who also should be brought into Krishna consciousness. Sridhar Maharaja was in a position of trying to make Krishna consciousness respectable in the eyes of the smarta-brahmin community and so he applied some of the smriti principles in his Math.<<

 

I think you are right that these things don't mix and while not so important if over emphasised can damage fragile faith.

 

>>Sridhar Maharaja also does not observe Julan-yatra or allow rasa-lila to be shown in portrait etc. etc. He is very conservative in regards to maintaining the sacredness of these things and does not like that such things be made so cheap or public.<<

 

I love Julan-yatra at Iskcon temples. being a fringey type I treasure those times very much as I never get any oppurtuities for similar service otherwise. Once swinging Radha-Gokulananda I feel I never want to stop. It's breif but important to me.

 

>>In this way, Sridhar Maharaja and the other Gaudiya Math type devotees are not good candidates for ISKCON leadership.

They most all maintain some kind of smriti dogma that Srila Prabhupada renounced in adapting Krishna consciousness to the western countries.<<

 

So one can discriminate a bit and still take siksa from them, as you have done. Just allow for your Godbrothers and sisters who may find the same from yet a different source.

 

I would have to question the motive of anyone that desired to take over Iskcon myself, in preference to just running their own mission.

 

>>So, this is what I appreciate about the ISCKON gurus though I don't beleive that ISCKON will ever really succeed or prosper without the revival of the ritvik system.<<

 

With just a small degree of tolerance they could go on simultaneously yet separately. Forget the property, the wealth is in the vani. Besides if Krsna wants he could bring the ritviks a million new temples overnight. You folks just need to stop trying to occupy the same space.

 

>>ISCKON gurus are chaste and loyal to Srila Prabhupada's teachings and this is their great redeeming quality. They are mostly all purebred Prabhupada men and I admire this feature about the GBC and ISCKON. I don't think that any Gaudiya Math type acharya or sannyasis should be allowed to have any input into the affairs of ISKCON - not even Sridhar Maharaja. We can see that he somewhat encouraged the guru fiasco in the days of the ritvik conspiracy and we can see the results of that. Though that does not diminish my appreciation for the greateness and glories of Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Srila Prabhupada pointed out that Sridhar Maharaja was similarly involved in the failed successor acharya movement after the passing of BSSGM. History repeats itself in this regard.

 

So, my hat is off to the ISCKON gurus and the GBC for trying to maintain a strictly Prabhupada oriented leadership over ISCKON. The guru fiasco in ISKCON was the result of deviating from that principle somewhat and taking too much input from outside sources like Sridhar Maharaja and Narayana Maharaja etc. If they would have just stayed with the guidance that Prabhupada gave and the ritvik system he left ISKCON with, the movement would today be a lot better off and much more successful in fullfilling the goals of Srila Prabhupada.<<

 

I think your blaming those outside Iskcon for its problems of immaturity and neglecting to address the material motives of those involved (which should also be allowed its place in the past) is indicative of the problem, a sectarian mind set. Just grow past all this, don't be stuck there trying to figure it all out.

 

>>What we have to realize now is that the guru system in ISCKON today is the result of going outside Prabhupada to these Gaudiya Math type sadhus for guidance and leadership.

Prabhupada left us with a ritvik system and it was due to the influence of outside sources like Narayana Maharaja and Sridhar Maharaja that the ritvik system was abandoned by the ritviks and the GBC.<<

 

Whatever. Just get past it. Work with the reality as it presents itself to you in the here and now. this is the Material world. You will NEVER have a perfect instituion in this atmosphere. Problems come with the territory. Work with what presents itself and don't dwell on the past too much.

 

In all spheres of life in this land of constant change we find the need for understanding the art of dealing with that change in the most productive way.

 

"Forget the past that sleeps

And ner the future dream at all.

Act with times that art with thee

And progress thee shall call."--Bhativinode Thakur

 

 

>>If the GBC and the gurus of ISKCON want to truly be able to claim exclusive and pure following of Srila Prabhupada, then they will have to resort back to the ritvik system that Srila Prabhupada left is with. The guru system in ISKCON is the product of disobeying Prabhupada and taking guidance from the smriti sadhus of the Gaudiya Math. It is not the brainchild of Srila Prabhupada.<<

 

Maybe yes maybe no. The point is you will get total consensus. So run your own mission focused on Prabhupada vani. Afterall that's the essence and it's open to all. Stop josting with windmills.

 

>>So, this is my praise of the ISKCON GBC and the gurus that for the most part they are followers of Srila Prabhupada and his books to the exclusion of so many Gaudiya Math type sadhus and gurus, with the exception to the gurus system in ISKCON which is in place due to the influence and input of these Gaudiya Math sadhus who have no vision or understanding of how and why ritvik is necessary and vital for the success of Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON society.<<

 

They may or may not know about your vision of ritvik but I don't feel insecure in saying they sure know something about Krsna consciousness.

 

>>My hope and prayer is that the GBC will see the error of this gurus system in ISCKON and abandon the smriti dogma that has caused this breakdown in the progess of ISKCON.<<

 

The point of Iskcon was to distribute Prabhupada vani and provide a place for us newbies to gather and start the practice. That no one can stop anyone else from doing.

 

Renounce your attachment to this excuse for failure and embrace the success that even now is right before your face.

 

>>If they want to truly be able to claim that they are pure followers of Prabhupada and not the Gaudiya Math, then they must revive the ritvik system in ISKCON or forever face the scorn and ridicule of so many disciples of Prabhupada who know the truth about Prabhupada and his ritvik system for ISCKON. <<

 

True disciples of Prabhupada will not feel they have the time to spend in ridiculing and scorning others. They will be too busy expanding the Prabhupada vani.

 

All glories to Srila Prabhupada

[krishna_s]

 

Though I personally prefer the ritvik concept for ISKCON, as I think that only the ritvik concept can make ISKCON thrive and prosper as it was envisioned to do, I would like to express a few positive appreciations for what it is I admire about the GBC and the ISKCON gurus.

 

 

I don't see how ISKCON can claim to be a bona fide, Vedaantic tradition if it embraced a post-samaadhi ritvik initiation concept. There is no shaastric precedent for such a thing.

 

Shaastras do not provide for accepting initiation from a departed guru though the medium of an unqualified individual.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I think it is worth noting, that both ISKCON and the Western preaching branches of the Gaudiya Math practically would not exist without Srila Prabhupada having opened up worldwide preaching. This of course puts him in a very unique position.

 

I do not think, however, that Srila Prabhupada is to be the soul guru for the next 10,000 years or that he has agreed to accept unlimited disciples post samadhi. I can sympathize with devotees who want to accept Srila Prabhupada as their diksa guru, but I think the potency of accepting Srila Prabhupada as siksa guru is the same.

 

Is it possible to go back home, back to Godhead, without having taken formal initiation? In my humble opinion, yes, depending on the sincerity of the disciple. Of course the taking of vows and the spiritual master-disciple relationship is very important for spiritual progress. So what is an aspiring devotee to do? I guess, follow one's heart.

 

Your humble servant, Vana

 

 

 

[Guruvani]

A GBC is unprecedented. Preaching in western countries is unprecedented. Gayatri by tape is unprecedented. Pre-samadhi ritivk is unprecedented. Gurus under the authority of a GBC is unprecedented. Women on the altar is unprecedented.

Prabhupada is unprecedented.

 

If we use precedent as the criterian then we have to reject the GBC wholesale, we have to reject women on the altar, we have to reject the disciples of Prabhupada who received gayatri by tape.

 

If we use precedent as the criteria then we have to reject ISKCON totally as ISKCON is unprecedented.

 

There is a first time for everything.

 

Besides, we should actually be seeing ritvik as a form of initiation into the ISKCON society rather than initiation as a disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Devotees should be initiated into ISKCON as a society of living gurus rather than the personal disciples of one particular guru. This is the real purpose of ritvik, not becoming a direct disciple of Srila Prabhupada.

[theist]

>>Besides, we should actually be seeing ritvik as a form of initiation into the ISKCON society rather than initiation as a disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Devotees should be initiated into ISKCON as a society of living gurus rather than the personal disciples of one particular guru. This is the real purpose of ritvik, not becoming a direct disciple of Srila Prabhupada. <<

 

I must of missed something again.

 

[Guruvani]

Dear Mr. Nobody(anonymous guest who is duplistic and hides his true indentity).

Nobody is saying that Prabhupada is the SOLE guru for the next 10,000 years. This is pure manure to accuse the ritvik proponents of saying this. There will be many gurus of many Maths and sects in the next 10,000 years. Ritvik only means that Prabhupada deputized ritviks to initiate on his behalf for the foreseeable future of ISKCON, in ISKCON and for ISKCON.

 

To see a difference between Prabhupada's death and his life goes against the teachings of the shastra that a true sad-guru is not affected by so-called death. Living or dead makes no difference for a sad-guru like Prabhupada.

 

To call Prabhupada a dead guru is offensive and a way of calling him a conditioned soul who is affected by death. A pure devotee is not affected by death. Life and death are the same for the sad-guru.

[Guruvani]

This is not a new idea I have come up with. I am going to post some quotes from my ritvik website that has been up for over a year.

 

.............................

 

How many times have we heard Srila Prabhupada use the term "joining ISKCON" or "joining the society"? Well, I am not going to attempt to count every time Srila Prabhupada has used this term, but we can easily see that he has used this term many, many times in his books, letters and lectures. For the sake of discussion lets take a look at just one small book, The Nectar of Instruction, which contains specific information and details for the guidance of persons who have taken to the cultivation of Krsna consciousness in connection with the Krsna consciousness movement. Upadeshamrita constitutes the first instructions for neophyte devotees.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada starts the book in the preface with "This Krsna consciousness movement is conducted under the supervision of Srila Rupa Goswami". So, from the very onset the very first idea that Srila Prabhupada is promoting is the concept of a "movement" or society of devotees which we must approach and join if we indeed seek the cultivation of Krsna consciousness under his guidance and the guidance of Srila Rupa Goswami. Conspicuous by it's absence is the terminology "becoming a disciple of a guru" or "accepting a guru". Quite contrary to the notion of accepting one person or one guru as one's shelter and guide, Srila Prabhupada is clearly and unambiguously advocating the concept of "joining the society" or "joining the Krsna consciousness movement".

 

(1) A follower of the Krsna consciousness movement should become a perfect Goswami. (Upadeshamrita, preface.) Here Srila Prabhupada says we must be followers of "The Krsna consciousness movement". He does not stress the idea of accepting one particular guru, rather of accepting the movement, the society of devotees.

(2) This spiritual association offered by our ISKCON movement is increasing day by day. Many people from different parts of the world are joining this society to awaken their dormant Krsna consciousness. (Text 2 purport) Notice how Srila Prabhupada is using the term "joining this society" rather than "becoming my disciples" or "becoming disciples of my disciples".

(3) This Krsna consciousness movement offers a spiritual community that can bring about a peaceful condition in the world. Every intelligent man should purify his consciousness and rid himself of the above-mentioned hindrances to devotional service by taking wholehearted shelter of this Krsna consciousness movement.(Upadeshamrita text 2, purport).

(4) The International Society for Krsna consciousness is opening many centers just to invite people to live in the company of devotees and practice the regulative principles of life.(Upadeshamrita text 2, purport)

(5) Many interested people come to honor prasada, and whenever possible they invite members of the society to their homes and feed them sumptuously with prasada. In this way both the members of the society and the general public are benefitted. (Upadeshamrita text 4, purport) Notice how Srila Prabhupada is referring to devotees as "members of the society" as opposed to "my disciples" or "their disciples".

(6) Everyone is invited to join this movement , sit with us, take prasada and hear about Krsna. When we see that someone is actually interested in Krsna consciousness and wants to be initiated, we accept him as a disciple for the chanting of the Holy Name of the Lord.(Upadeshamrita text 5, purport).

Such references in the books, letters and lectures of Srila Prabhupada are numerous and plentiful. Srila Prabhupada clearly advocated the concept of "joining ISKCON" or "joining the Krsna consciousness movement".

Here in just the first six verses of Upadeshamrita we find several such references and such references are many throughout the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. We find not one statement where Srila Prabhupada says that any of his disciples would become diksha gurus in ISKCON after his departure. However, there is very profound and significant evidence that Srila Prabhupada did want the Rtvik system to continue after his departure.

[theist]

He signed it Vana

[livingentity]

What is the address to your website, please?

[Guruvani]

 

He signed it Vana

 

 

That doesn't mean anything. How about his whole name, who his diksha guru is, who his siksha gurus are and something about his history as a devotee?

[theist]

>>(6) Everyone is invited to join this movement , sit with us, take prasada and hear about Krsna. When we see that someone is actually interested in Krsna consciousness and wants to be initiated, we accept him as a disciple for the chanting of the Holy Name of the Lord.(Upadeshamrita text 5, purport).<<

 

In this example there is no indication that one needs a initiation to "join this movement" ritvik or otherwise.

 

I agree with Vana, siksa is potent enough and that requires submissive inquiry and hearing.

 

Stick with the idea of Hari Nama not waiting for initiation like you had on your recent thread.

 

Those verses from Madhya-lila coupled with Prabhupada's staement that one need not become a disciple even of a particular person, forget the ritvik rites and I think you will have it right.

 

That is along with understanding that if people want to formally accept a particular person that is also there. "Disciple of my disciple..."

 

For Deity worship there may be other requirements that you all know much better than I. Brahmana intiation for that.

[Guruvani]

Post deleted by Admin5

[livingentity]

I understand. Thanks.

[theist]

That is not a stated requirement for this forum per the propritor. Guests are welcome.

 

Welcome Vana. thanks for signing your post, it makes it easier to correspond.

 

A.E.Newman Theist

Diksa guru- none will claim me

Siksa guru- Supersoul through everyone and everything especially Prabhupada's books

History-perennial fringe,sometimes sahajiya since 1970 and it gets more embarassing every year

[Guruvani]

You keep missing my point that the success of ISCKON is very important to the welfare of mankind. Without a spiritual society to give devotees support and structure, the movement will not accomplish the goals of Prabhupada.

 

Without ritvik, ISKCON will fail pitifully and we will have nothing but Gaudiya Math gurus initiating devotees all over the world and then leaving them without support or association that can help them make Krishna consciousness a reality instead of a pipe dream.

 

Ritvik is crucial to the success of ISKCON. The success of ISKCON is the hope for the world - not some preachers of smriti dogma from the Gaudiya Math.

 

None of you devotees living independently in secular society are following the principles, chanting 16 rounds a day etc. etc.

 

Admit it! Without ISKCON you are all failures in spiritual life.

[Guest guest]

 

Ritvik is crucial to the success of ISKCON. The success of ISKCON is the hope for the world, not some preachers of smriti dogma from the Gaudiya Math.

 

None of you devotees living independently in secular society are following the principles, chanting 16 rounds a day etc. etc.

 

 

Guruvani Prabhu,

 

As I think you probably know, the Gaudiya Math gurus are in some cases, less strict (more liberal). Such as requiring a minimum of four rounds instead of 16 rounds.

 

Also, I personally know of devotees who are living in secular society and chanting 16 rounds and following the four regulative principles.

 

Your humble servant, Vana

 

 

[theist]

Yes, I admit I am a failure in spiritual life. But I don't blame my failure on Iskcon or lack of Iskcon. i have many regrets, like not going traveling with Vishnujana when he asked me to. I really blew it, all in the name of a false sense of independence.

 

 

BTW I wish those "Gaudiya Math types" all the success in the world on spreading Krsna's names. May they open 10,000 temples in America alone.

 

I will still focus on Prabhupada's books and tapes but that is my path even as slow as I am.

 

But I will add, beware of the mind that makes you feel successful on this path. Success will be attained when you are sure you are lower than the straw in the street.

[Guest guest]

 

Success will be attained when you are sure you are lower than the straw in the street.

 

 

Thank you, Prabhu, yes it all comes down to this.

 

Your humble servant, Vana

 

[krishna_s]

 

A GBC is unprecedented. Preaching in western countries is unprecedented. Gayatri by tape is unprecedented. Pre-samadhi ritivk is unprecedented. Gurus under the authority of a GBC is unprecedented. Women on the altar is unprecedented.

Prabhupada is unprecedented.

 

 

 

I'm afraid these are not very good examples, and quoting them does nothing to excuse one from departing from shaastric injunctions.

 

There are no shaastric injunctions that specify, for example, how the managing body of a religious society should be formed. Thus, the idea of a GBC does not contradict shaastra; it is merely the application of already existing Vedic principles (in theory at least, whether or not it has fulfilled that principle is another issue).

 

On the other hand, the whole manner in which a sadhaka should seek out a guru and get transcendental knowledge has been explicitly spelled out in shaastra. For example:

 

tad viddhi praNipaatena pariprashnena sevayaa |

upadekShyanti te j~naana.m j~naaninas tattva-darshinaH || giitaa 4.34

||

 

tat - that knowledge of different sacrifices; viddhi - try to understand; praNipaatena - by approaching a spiritual master; pariprashnena - by submissive inquiries; sevayaa - by the rendering of service; upadekShyanti - they will initiate; te - you; j~naanam - into knowledge; j~naaninaH - the self-realized; tattva - of the truth; darshinaH -seers.

 

Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth (bhagavad-giitaa 4.34).

 

pariikShya lokaankarmachitaanbraahmaNo nirvedamaayaannaastyakR^itaH kR^itena |

tadvij~naanaartha.m sa gurumevaabhigachchhetsamitpaaNiH shrotriya.m brahmaniShTam || MU 1.2.12 ||

 

pariikShya -seeing; lokaan - the worlds; karma-chitaan - obtained by karma; brahmaNaH - a brahmana; nirveda-maayaan - renounced; na - not; asty - is; akR^itaH - undone; kR^itena - done; tad-vij~naanaartham - to understand that knowledge; sa - he; gurum - a spiritual master; eva - indeed; abhigachchhet - should approach; samit-paaNiH - fuel in hand; shrotriyam - learned in the scriptures; brahma-niShTham - devoted to the Supreme.

 

Seeing the true nature of the higher worlds attained by pious karma, a braahmaNa does not desire them. To learn transcendental subject matter, one must approach the spiritual master. In doing so he should carry fuel to burn in sacrifice. The symptom of such a great spiritual master is that he is expert in understanding the Vedic conclusion, and therefore he constantly engages in the service of the

Supreme Personality of Godhead (muNDakopaniShad 1.2.12).

 

Basic premise of ritvik-vaada is the idea that none of Srila Prabhupada's disciples are qualified to be gurus. Thus, these individuals can only serve as ritvik gurus, and one can approach such a ritvik guru for transcendental knowledge. But shaastric pramaanas given above state quite clearly that the guru must be j~naaninas tattva-darshinaH (self-realized, seers of the truth), shrotriyam (learned in shaastras), and brahma-niShTham (fixed in Brahman, or in other words Krishna-consciousness).

 

If shaastra directs us to find such a guru, then this contradicts the idea that one can instead seek out an unqualified guru who lacks these qualities. The post-samaadhi ritvik doctrine therefore isn't merely unprecedented (perhaps that was the wrong word to use on my part). Rather, it is a clear cut contradiction of shaastric injunctions. Whether or not ISKCON gurus are qualified is therefore besides the point; the system is given in shaastra. If no one is qualified, then the paramparaa is dead, and saadhakas will have to settle for Srila Prabhupada's shiksha until such time that they can find a qualified, living guru.

 

regards,

 

- K

 

[Guruvani]

 

BTW I wish those "Gaudiya Math types" all the success in the world on spreading Krsna's names. May they open 10,000 temples in America alone.

 

 

Well, they have had over fourty or fifty years to do something and they don't have anything yet except a couple of rented storefronts in all of America. At this rate it will take them 60,000 years to get a few real temples established. They only have 10,000 years of the Golden Age of Mahaprabhu to get something done, so I guess your pipe dream will remain just that.

 

 

[theist]

Well that shows an incredible lack of faith in the potency of Mahaprabhu.

 

With maybe some exceptions, like maybe Kapindra swami, who I don't know but heard some good things about, you ritvik vada's almost to a man, seem to wish "these GM types" failure in their attempt to serve Mahaprabhu.

 

I find that very sad indeed.

[theist]

I will add that that attitude is the opposite of that held by the magnanimous truly empowered preacher of the Lord's Word and identical to that held by any run of the mill sectarian religionist of whatever temporary religion that is already well established.

 

Instead of rejoicing at the success of others in their efforts to bring love of God to the suffering they decry them for not marching under their particular flag.

 

In so doing they expose themselves as a dead and whithered branch. But hope is not lost. Mahaprabhu is the gardener so life is always restorable.

[Guruvani]

 

Well that shows an incredible lack of faith in the potency of Mahaprabhu.

 

 

It is not a matter of faith. It is a practical observation that these Gaudiya Math types have had longer than Srila Prabhupada to do preaching in the western world but they have done nothing except intrude and exploit the movement that Prabhupada established in the western world.

 

They have done nothing except ride the coat-tails of Srila Prabhupada. It is pathetic that all they can do is scrounge for remnants of the ISKCON efforts. They should be ashamed to stick their nose into the workings of the international Krishna consciousness movement. They wanted nothing to do with it when Prabhupada was in charge, but after he left they were like vultures ready to pounce on the movement for scraps and pieces.

[theist]

Well I agree they should not really be interested too much in Iskcon's internal affairs. If they are or not I have no idea. Although one can understand that since iskcon is the most well known org. for spreading Krsna consciousness in the West, that it would be natural for them to be interested. And even feel welcome when they come to preach.

 

Afterall there are almost three hundred million humans here to introduce the mantra to. That's why I always tell Narayan Maharaja's disciples and students that I hope they can open thousands of centers here in the West.

 

I think that will happen when they get more organized and established.

 

But you know by allowing a sense of resentment to live in your heart towards them you have bound yourself to them on that level. Not that they themselves are on that level but i see you think about them all the time and hold much bitterness towards them. It's not healthy for you.

 

Maybe you could see that as one reason to help them more to get established. It's not a perfect motive but then who has a perfect motive anyway. Only the rare soul.