what I appreciate about ISKCON gurus and the GBC

[theist]

It won't be helpful to hold everyone up to the example of Srila Prabhupada. It will help us all if we hold ourselves up to that standard, helpful that is in making us realize how small we are.

 

Empowered souls like that seem very rare on this earth. But let us hope Krsna empowers more with that degree of bhakti-shakti to give to the world.

 

Even you Guruvaniji. I expect miracles from Srila Prabhupada's disciples. Seriously. Not this bickering between Mathas and endless arguements over the intracies of how and when to perform some religious rites.

 

How many in human form died today without hearing the holy name or the fact that they are spirit and not the body etc.

 

Sectarian squabbling sucks the life air out of the movement.

 

[Guruvani]

Prabhupada wrote Narayana Maharaja in the early years of ISKCON and begged him to join with him in his preaching efforts in America. Narayana Maharaja refused to come and see firsthand how Prabhupada was conducting ISKCON. Prabhupada wanted Narayana Maharaja to get trained by him personally for a part in ISKCON but Prabhupada's plea fell on deaf ears.

Narayana Maharaja refused to cooperate with Prabhupada in accepting his role in ISKCON according to how Prabhupada wanted him to come on Prabhupada's terms and under his conditions.

After the passing of Prabhupada, Narayana Maharaja decided it was time to stick his nose into the movement and come in under his own terms - not the terms Prabhupada wanted.

 

Therefore, since Narayana Maharaja refused to obey Prabhupada's request to come join him and get trained for his service in ISKCON, he has missed the boat and is therefore ineligible for taking a part under his own terms in direct disobediance to the request of Prabhupada to come and learn from Prabhupada what his role could have been.

 

Therefore, he should not have gotten involved in the affairs of Prabhupada disciples and the international Krishna consciousness movement that Prabhupada left to the charge of his disciples - not Narayana Maharaja.

[theist]

Yes I agree Prabhupada got litle or no tangible support for his preaching efforts. But that was 25-30 yrs. ago and people change. This has gotten old with me.

 

From Narayana's camp the spin that because Srila Prabhupada asked him to conduct his bodies placement in samadhi that SP was really saying Narayan Maharaja should be the next acarya for Iskcon is equaly tiresome.

 

What to do? Maybe open a rice wine and rattan stick concession and market to both camps?

 

Hare Krsna

[Guruvani]

 

Yes I agree Prabhupada got litle or no tangible support for his preaching efforts. But that was 25-30 yrs. ago and people change.

 

 

Nothing has changed. Same old dogma with a different melody.

 

Being a funeral director is hardly credentials for being the successor to Srila Prabhupada.

Narayana Maharaja is good at burying Prabhupada. Even today he is still trying to bury Prabhupada with smriti dogma.

[theist]

Well he appears to me to be inspiring a lot of people and writing books on Krsna for the English world and elsewhere. If that doesn't make us happy then I think the defect is with us.

 

Anyway Krsna is in control, fulfilling our desires. If we want conroversy and endless bickering as a means to distract us and avoid Him, He will supply it. If we want to avoid him by getting immersed in religiousity He will give us all the garb and secondary ritualistic performances to keep us busy for centuries.

 

If we however want to love Him, He will purify that desire of all the dross until it remains the only one we carry and then give Himself to us to love.

 

I need sleep now,

 

theist, the unaffiliated

 

 

[stonehearted]

"Guruvani": None of you devotees living independently in secular society are following the principles, chanting 16 rounds a day etc. etc.

 

Well, frankly, that's just a crock of bull puckey. I've been following the principles and chanting 16 rounds since 1970, and I know lots of other devotees who live outside ISKCON and are not governed by any GBC who are also. Many of us, including me, perform daily worship of Sri Vigraha and/or of Govardhana and/or Shalagram-shilas. Many of us also preach.

 

This claim appears to be simply an instance of "atamavan manyate jagat": thinking everyone is like you.

[Guruvani]

Prabhupada wanted the devotees to have their own sub-culture and microcosm within the greater secular society.

It is really great that there are some devotees out there who can maintain their sadhana independently, but that is not true in many, many cases. I know so many Prabhupada disciples who lost their principles when they left ISKCON and the support structure it provided. Very few of the disciples outside ISKCON are doing that. It is also impossilbe for new devotees to attain to that standard without the kind of association and support that living in the temple or the immediate temple community provides.

Low class devotees like myself need a good support structure. That is why I am fighting so hard to make ISKCON a place where the disciples of Prabhupada can come back home to and get the kind of association and support they need. It will never happen as long as the ISKCON guru system alienates them as unsuitable assocaition for their disciples and displaces them in their service.

[Guest guest]

 

In this example there is no indication that one needs a initiation to "join this movement" ritvik or otherwise.

 

I agree with Vana, siksa is potent enough and that requires submissive inquiry and hearing.

 

Stick with the idea of Hari Nama not waiting for initiation like you had on your recent thread.

 

Those verses from Madhya-lila coupled with Prabhupada's staement that one need not become a disciple even of a particular person, forget the ritvik rites and I think you will have it right.

 

 

 

In bhakti RasAmRta Sindhu Srila Rupa Gosvami defining the angas of bhakti,

starts with Sri guru padaSraya, which means that first, that means first!

go to guru and take shelter of His lotus feet. What is the meaning of that?

Jiva Gosvami says:

yo mantra sa guruh sAkSat yo guru sa harih svayam

gurur yasya bhavet tuStas tasya tuSto harih svayam

By the process of initiation (dikSa), the mantras (the transcendental sounds) given are the Self of the guru.

And the guru is directly the Supreme Lord Hari. How?

Srila KRSNa dasa Kaviraja Gosvami says

guru KRSNa rupa hana Sastrera pramane

guru rupe KRSNa kRpa karena bhakta gane

guru (the one that gives initiation - dikSa) is directly the outward form of KRSNa's form (KRSNa rupa) and

and guru is the form that KRSNa's mercy (KRSNa kRpa) takes for the bhakta.

And further Srila KRSNa dasa Kaviraja Gosvami says

SikzA guruke ta' jani KRSNera svarupa

Sikza guru is the internal form of KRSNa (KRSNera svarupa)

And as there is no difference between KRSNa rupa and KRSNa svarupa,

in the same way one should not see any difference beween dikSa and Sikza guru.

 

One should not think that one could name himself a RupAnuga in the brahma madhava gaudya sampradaya

but doesn't follow the most elementary rule of Sri guru padaSraya.

 

As regarding the ritvik guruvani and his attempt in rescuing that institution, he should preach pure bhakti, pure bhakti is extremely rare.

Why? Because Bhakti leaves in the heart of the pure devotees. And who could give bhakti?

When any pure devotee is in this world, he will give it.

And somewhere in Bhagavatam is stated that the viSnu jana (the man of God) there will always move on the surface of the earth.

 

Guru paramapara Ki Jaya!

 

13 th July - Guru Purnima. Vyasa-puja.

First month of Caturmasya vrata begins. Fasting from all green leafy vegetables for one month.

 

Particular foods that are restricted during each of the four months:

 

First month: No leafy vegetables such as spinach, salads of all types, cabbages of all types, kale, leafy herbs such as coriander, mint, parsley, curry, and powdered leafy herbs.

Second month: No yogurt (if one requires for health, it can be mixed with water)

Third month: No milk (if required, it can be mixed with lemon juice).

Fourth month: No mustard oil nor sesame seeds.

 

 

 

your servant the neophyte

[theist]

I was going to ask you to define diksa but I am so tired of this I will let it go.

 

We all agree we need to receive transcendental knowledge. I'll leave it at that.

 

Since I don't follow the rules for catur-matsya I think I'll go get some spinach today.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guruvani]

Here is Jiva Goswami's definition of diksha as given in the bhakti-sandarbha.

 

"Diksha is the PROCESS by which one CAN AWAKEN HIS TRANSCENDENTAL KNOWLEDGE and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person EXPERT IN THE STUDY OF THE REVEALED SCRIPTURES <font color="red">KNOWS THIS PROCESS</font color> as diksha".

 

Jiva Goswami says diksha is a PROCESS, not a ceremony!

 

It says here that a person expert in the study of revealed scriptures knows this process of studying the revealed scriptures as "DIKSHA".

Is diksha the process of giving some mantra and putting on of a string? Or, is diksha the process of acquiring spiritual knowledge by studying the shastra? Can we really reduce diksha down to some formal ceremony and the putting on a piece of string?

Is not diksha the acquiring of knowledge of Brahman? Is diksha a formal ceremony and a piece of string or the process of acquiring transcendental knowledge?

[stonehearted]

Yes, it's true that many devotees, even those with many years of experience, don't have a strong sadhana. But your assertion was absolute: "None of you devotees living independently in secular society are following the principles, chanting 16 rounds a day etc. etc." The same mistake was made by Gurukripa and others in 1974 on a walk in Honolulu, as they tried to build a case against Siddhasvarupananda and other devotees who lived outside the temple. They were also wrong. I think you may be mistaken also to assert that it's a rare exception that those outside the institution's control maintain good sadhana. We are under the control of the spiritual master, and even devotees who have had difficulties very often eventually realize the importance of making spritual progress regardless of their situation. "Grihe thako vane thako, sada haribole dako." To say that it's very rare that Srila Prabhupada's disciples could follow his instructions is to denigrate his real power, which is the power to change hearts.

 

The support structure is indeed important. That's why more than one of the reasons Srila Prabhupada established the Society (and the League of Devotees before that). But I think an even bigger reason so many of Srila Prabhupada's disciples feel in ISKCON is the culture of vaishnava aparadha that has grown in the Society.

[Guest guest]

 

That which

bestow divya jnana (transcendental knowledge)

destroy papa (sinn)

destroy papa bija (the seed of sinn)

destroy avidya (ignorance)

is called dikSa.

from Hari bhakti vilasa 2.9 (from ViSnu yamala)

 

divyam jnanam

hy atra mantre bhagavat svarupa jnanam

tena bhagavata

sambandha viSeza jnanaca

from Bhakti Sandarbha Ann. 283

Transcendental knowledge

is contained within the mantra which reveals bhagavan svarupa

and sambandha viSeza - knowledge of the particular relation between bhakta and bhagavan.

 

Sri gurudeva knowing the svarupagat bhava (the inherent, natural disposition of the sadhaka)

gives nourishment to that

in the heart of the sadhaka.

from Hari bhakti vilasa 2.12

 

yatha kancanatam yati kamsyam rasa vidhAnatah

tatha dikSa cidhanena dvijatvam jagate nRnam

from Mahabharata AnuSasana Parva 143.46

Just as a bell metal is turned into gold

by an alchemical process

a man can obtain the state of dvija (second born)

by the process of dikSa.

 

In spite of the autonomous potency of the Holy Name

the previous mahajanas accepted dikSa from their gurus.

from Bhakti Sandarbha 283

 

Pritipurvaka guru seva

 

Know the acarya to be my own very self

never find fault in him

considering him an ordinary man

for all the devatas reside in Sri gurudeva.

 

All anarthas which cannot be removed even by rigid sadhana

are easily destroyed

by serving Sri gurudeva without duplicity.

 

Sadhu marga anuSarah - following the path of sadhu

 

by abandoning the path of the previous mahajanas

and errecting another path

aikantika bhava (the one pointed mood of devotion) is not obtained.

 

your servant

the neophyte

[Guest guest]

 

Diksha is the PROCESS by which one CAN AWAKEN HIS TRANSCENDENTAL KNOWLEDGE and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person EXPERT IN THE STUDY OF THE REVEALED SCRIPTURES KNOWS THIS PROCESS as diksha".

 

 

This process is ignited by the sad guru and takes place under his expert direction. No sad guru, (no realized soul) no dikSa, no process, but one can accumulate eternal pious results (Sukriti) by his contact with the limbs of bhakti. When that sukriti matures one can come in contact with sadhu (sad guru), a process that takes place over many, many life times.

 

bhaktis tu bhagavad bhakta

sangena parijayate

SAT-SANGA prapyate pumbhih

SUKRITI purva sancite

 

The inclination for bhakti is awakened

by the association with the bhagavt bhakta of the Lord

And the association with the pure devotees (SAT SANGA) can be attained by the accumulated effect of SUKRITI (eternal pious activities) performed over many life times.

(Brihan Naradia Purana 4.33)

 

the neophyte

[Guruvani]

Diksha means studying the scriptures under the guidance of the guru. That is what it means to study the scriptures as they are translated and taught by Srila Prabhupada. Western devotees are not reading the Vedas without the guidance of a guru. They are studying the scriptures as taught by a pure devotee. Prabhupada wanted his books distrubuted far and wide. He has given the whole world the right and authority to study the sciptures as he has taught them.

[theist]

When we read his books we are fortunate to not only have the English translations but his extensive purports explaining those translations.

 

So how someone can say Prabhupada's disciples and students are studying apart from guru?

 

Of course we may also receive help understanding even the purports, and for that we can approach others more experienced.

 

 

[Guest guest]

You are also a new age ritvik. One makes a murti of guru,

and worships that murti.

And one has association with the murti and the books.

But our acaryas didn't teach bhakti like this.

 

First go to guru and take dikSa.

If you are not prepared for it,

for living on a mental speculative platform,

for wanting of being not under the control of guru

for wanting of not really following bhakti,

you should not say one does not need a guru.

 

The materialist have no idea about the transcendental books, transcendental personalities , transcendental sound (shabda brahma), and their relation.

When one conditioned soul reads a book loud the sound is only the outer portion of the sound and when he reads the book in the mind the sound is on the level of the mind and intelligence.

One can understand somehow something from the holy books, get some good impressions in the heart (samskaras), and one should study the holy books but how?

Under guru padashraya, under the guidance of the bona fide - sat guru, otherwise one is a pretender.

Only a pure devotee can understand the writings of a pure devotee.

Nowadays everbody writes books, whether they have realized Nama or not, oh, they make books like capati.

Only a sat guru, a pure vaisnava is giving the transcendental sound.

 

 

THE MATERIALISTS SAY ABOUT THEIR WORSHIPABLE PERSONALITIES

THAT THEY LIVE IN THEIR BOOKS.

 

The vaisnavas live not in their book forever

THEY NEVER DIED.

 

The materialists don't understand the transcendentalist conception that the vaishnavas have no material body. Only by the arrangements of yoga maya it seems that they grow old, get ill and die.

 

On the other hand we learn that the holy book is transcendental. Yes.

Only that one needs the transcendental player to get the transcendental sounds out of it.

 

First go to guru and take dikSa.

 

 

the copy-man

[Guruvani]

 

First go to guru and take dikSa.

 

 

This is actually against the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. In the CC he says that generally the siksha guru goes on to become the diksha guru. I don't know who your acharya is, but Prabhupada gave it in reverse order that you are giving. I guess I will have to go dig up that reference to prove this point.

 

Devotees like theist are taking siksha from Prabhupada in this lifetime and it is not impossible that they will take diksha from Prabhupada in a future life or even in Goloka as far as that goes. Maybe they have already taken diksha from Prabhupada, only you just have some mundane perception of what is diksha.

Also, theist did not "make a murti" of Prabhupada. Prabhupada authorized these murtis to be made and authorized the worship of these murtis.

 

In essence, your real intention here is to discredit and disqualify Prabhupada with your criticims of murti worship.

 

Let me guess? You are a disciple of some babaji at Radha-kunda? Now, we know where from you get your spite for Srila Prabhupada.

[Guruvani]

I never ever claimed to be better than anybody. I know too much about myself to believe that. I don't think anyone is in here trying to assert personal superiority over others based upon initiation from this or that person.

We are debating siddhanta and the teachings of our respective gurus. It is not a matter of one person saying I am better than another.

(well, maybe stonehearted was bragging somewhat about what a great devotee he is)(just teasing)(he's a nice devotee)

[hare_krishna]

I did not mean you. I was just talking in general. It seems to be very popular now to say that one has a guru from great sampradaya. Just taking diksha is not enough.

[stonehearted]

Ksamabuddhi: (well, maybe stonehearted was bragging somewhat about what a great devotee he is)(just teasing)(he's a nice devotee)

 

Yikes! Is my facade of humility that transparent? I also know myself too well to assert any real superiority. I do feel fortunate, though, that somehow my association has been good enough that I can maintain some sort of sadhana. Perhaps I'll eventually be able to make some progress, with the blessings of the devotees.

[Guruvani]

In regards to the idea that one must take diksha before he can take siksha, I will rebut that misconception with the teachings of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami.

 

In Sri Chaitanya Caritamrita Adi-lila ch. 1 text 35 purport, Srila Prabhupada says:

 

A devotee must have only one initiating spiritual master because in the scriptures acceptance of more than one is always forbidden. There is no limit, however, to the number of instructing spiritual masters one may accept.<font color="red">GENERALLY A SPIRITUAL MASTER WHO CONSTANTLY INSTRUCTS A DISCIPLE IN SPIRITUAL SCIENCE BECOMES HIS INITIATING SPIRITUAL MASTER LATER ON.</font color>

 

So, this proposal that diksha must come BEFORE siksha is bogus according to this teaching of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

[Guruvani]

The original father of the Gaudiya sampradaya, Lord Brahma was actually initiated through siksha and not mantra. The very origin of the sampradaya started with siksha as being the original diksha.

 

Adi-lila ch. 1 text 50 purport:

 

Thus when Brahma, initiated by the sound vibration tapa engaged himself in acts of austerity, by the pleasure of Vishnu he was able to visualize the transcendental world, Sri Vaikuntha, through transcendental realization

 

In the Srimad Bhagavatam is explained that Lord Brahma was first initiated by the siksha of Lord Vishnu in his instructions "tapa" which advised Lord Brahma to undergo austerities for transcendental realization.

 

Thus the original diksha in our sampradaya was actually a form of siksha and not a mantra diksha. Lord Brahma got no spiritual name, no mantra, no regulative principles - just the instruction to perform austerities.

[Guruvani]

All this writing and typing and researching is actually very tedious and troublesome for me, but I am doing it anyway because of my disdain for superficial interpretations of diksha that irk me.

 

In this post I will show how Prabhupada equates taking the siksha of the acharya as being tantamount to diksha. Please bear with me and try to understand the teachings of Srila Prabhupada on this matter.

 

Let's turn to chapter 1 of Adi-lila text 35 purport:

 

One should always know that a person who is reluctant to accept a spiritual master and be initiated is sure to be baffled in his endeavor to go back to Godhead. One who is not properly initiated may present himself as a great devotee, but in fact he is sure to encounter many stumbling blocks on his path of progress towards spiritual realization, with the result that he must continue his term of material existence without relief. Such a helpless person is compared to a ship without a rudder, for such a ship can never reach it's destination. It is imperitive, therefore, that one accept a spiritual master if he at all wants to gain the favor of the Lord. The service of the spritual master is essential. <font color="red">If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master's intructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple. if one thinks that he is above consulting anyone else, including a spiritual master, he is at once an offender at the lotus feet of the Lord. </font color> Such an offender can never go back to Godhead. It is imperitive that a serious person accept a bona fide spiritual master in terms of the shastric injunctions. Srila Jiva Goswami advises that one not accept a spiritual master in terms of hereditary or customary social and ecclesiatical conventions. One should simply try to find a genuinely qualified spiritual master for actual advancement in spiritual understanding.

 

 

In this purport Srila Prabhupada clearly illustrates that the important thing is to accept the instructions of a real spiritual master even if he is unable to be physically connected to the spiritual master.

 

Jiva Goswami has such recommended that one accept a spiritual master on the basis of where one can get the best spiritual understanding. He advises that all social customs, hereditary gurus and ecclesiatical dogma be rejected in accepting a guru.

 

Accept the guru who is really giving you spiritual understand through his teachings and instructions. Such a guru is your real guru.

[theist]

 

“Even a moment’s association with a pure devotee—all success.” Not necessarily that one has to acquire it previous, no. Generally it is so, but sädhu sanga has got its effect. Caitanya Mahäprabhu said, lavamatra sädhu sanga sarva siddhi haya. You have not read in the Sanätana-çikñä in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya?

 

Revaténandana: Does that also apply to reading the words of a pure devotee?

 

Prabhupäda: Yes.

 

Revaténandana: Even a little association with your books has the same effect?

 

Prabhupäda: Effect, of course, it requires both the things. One must be very eager to take it. Just like Mahäräja Parékñit heard Çrémad-Bhägavatam, and there are so many others. They are also reading Çrémad-Bhägavatam. So Mahäräja Parékñit was very serious. So both things should be serious. Just like the example: the husband and wife must be potent; then there is pregnancy. Otherwise there is no pregnancy. So sewing the seed, the field also must be fertile or receptive, then the seed will fructify. It is reciprocal.

 

 

 

Some seem to want to break peoples faith in reading Prabhupada's books. Telling us that they are actually mundane in some way. That is not Prabhupada's view.They say sadhu-sanga is not available there. That is not Prabhupada's view.

 

The choice is yours.

 

"But how can we inquiry submissively, since guru is not present." Guru IS present in his vani. Guru IS also present as Supersoul. How can anyone be closer than Supersoul?

 

Submissiveness is an attitude. Offer humble respects to Prabhupada and pray to Supersoul to grant you ears to hear correctly.

 

What is mundane is the attempt to weaken someone's faith in Prabhupada's books.

[Guest guest]

 

Brahma initiated through siksha

 

 

This must be understood as a play on words?!

 

Many people are using words without to understand their meaning.

 

May somebody please, give the definition of Sikza?

We had previously had the definition of dikSa.

 

Jiva Gosvami says:

yo mantra sa guruh sAkSat yo guru sa harih svayam

gurur yasya bhavet tuStas tasya tuSto harih svayam

 

By the process of initiation (dikSa), the mantras (the transcendental sounds) given are the Self of the guru.

And the guru is directly the Supreme Lord Hari. How?

Srila KRSNa dasa Kaviraja Gosvami says

guru KRSNa rupa hana Sastrera pramane

guru rupe KRSNa kRpa karena bhakta gane

guru (the one that gives initiation - dikSa) is directly the outward form of KRSNa's form (KRSNa rupa)

and guru is the form that KRSNa's mercy (KRSNa kRpa) takes for the bhakta.

 

Adi-lila ch. 1 text 50 purport:

Thus when Brahma, initiated by the TRANSCENDENTAL sound vibration tapa engaged himself in acts of austerity,

 

 

As one can see the initiation (dikSa) takes place through mantra - the transcendental sound.

 

Go to guru, take the transcendental sound of initiation!

Only a sad guru, a pure devotee can give it.

 

the neophyte