I have a question about this ...

[Guest guest]

"Having forgotten Krishna, the conditioned living entity is suffering the

misdirection and perversion of his own socalled intelligence. The living

entities are fragmental parts of the supreme shelter, Krishna, but have

fallen from Krishna's kingdom of spiritual pastimes (Srimad Bhagavatam 11,2,38,

purport, by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura"

 

-I_love_krishna_

 

I thought no one falls from Krishna's shelter but this just contradicts that statement. If we were never there with krishna then why does this say that we were there with krishna in the past?.

 

 

[Krsnanatha]

I will suggest that if you really want to get information on the subject you consult a book entitled:

"In Vaikuntha Not Even the Leaves Fall"

I have heard individuals who disagree with the authors' conclusions concede it is well researched. There is a wealth of quotes from the Acharyas of our disciplic line on the subject.

I will not suggest what anyone should think after reading it as even the very first line of the introduction states: "This book is the result of controversy."

I do not want to open a debate on the subject which if you investigate you will find has intransigent proponents on both sides.

I have long ago lost what little taste I had for debating until the final split hair is split a thousand times more.

I am not so smart for these subjects and find much more shelter in simply chanting the Holy Name than in imagining that I have an absolute grasp on the infinite mechanism of the environment around me.

But that is just me. I am only saying I do not feel an overwhelming need to feel that I really thoroughly understand all of the deepest points of certain very esoteric issues.

It is no question important to understand philosophy but this subject will illustrate for anyone investigating it that there are certain details about the mechanics of the universes which are not always understood in a universal fashion.

Fortunately Mahaprabhu is so kind in this Kali Yuga that He has boiled the realization of the Supreme Absolute Personality of Godhead down to a very simple process. Hari Kirtana, a very simple meditative concept/process which produces the same result that tremendous austerities, huge sacrifices and various complex rituals produced in previous yugas. Ultimately I have never heard or read that there is a test of Jnana one must take at the time of death. There is however repeated mention of the value of attaching one's self to this simple yet inconceivabley powerful process of Hari Nama Sankirtana.

It is up to each Jiva to decide what is really important to focus the awareness upon.

[Guest guest]

It was for my selfish interest that I asked such a question.

 

I would have felt happy if that statement made by the takura were true and nothing contradicted it.

 

-I_love_krisha_

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

shastra is meant to help you, the helping message is

that if you forget Krsna, forget that everything

is under control, forget the reason for our existence,

then that is causing us unhappiness,confusion,

misplaced anger(towards those who appear to be the cause

of whatever is going on ), and foolish actions.

 

and by such forgetfullness we exist in the "material world",

by rememberance of these things we exist in a transcendental realm.

[Krsnanatha]

You are not at all being selfish in the nasty use of the phrase. All aspects of human emotion can be rectified if used in the service of the Supreme. Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada was quoted at different times that the number one principle in executing devotional activities is to save oneself.

Your desire to understand details of philosophy is no doubt pushing toward such a goal. Understanding philosophical issues will strengthen faith and generate resolve of purpose, two corner stones to building the determination and hankering to surrender to Krsna. If that is selfish please teach me your fine selfish techniques! I will gladly be your student.

My only suggestion in the previous post was to warn in advance that a resolution to the question you raised is not easily produced in two or three paragraphs. Much background information is required. Much such background you may already possess. You will know this as you investigate the answers. I never propose ignoring study or spiritual curiosity.

I guess I am trying to encourage focus on how to get out of the pool of birth and death and not on how we dropped in to begin with. Bottom line we are here in this karmic jail. By untracable, causeless grace a means of escape is within our grasp. My humble advice to anyone is be selfish. Be as selfish as you possibly can be.

Get out of here and on the way out, publicize the existence of this escape route to as many other souls as you can.

My Dandavats.

 

[gHari]

I_Love_Krishna,

 

There has indeed been much gentlemanly debate about this topic. Some have speculated that this was a preaching mechanism started by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and subsequently adopted by Srila Prabhupada. Madhudvisa dasa raised a somewhat similar question to Srila Prabhupada who responded with the following piece in a 1977 letter:<blockquote><h2>Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic</h2>We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.

 

Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.

 

We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.

 

So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, merging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.

 

So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

 

Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease.

 

<TABLE border=0 cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><TD WIDTH="50%">On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big big learned scholars saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.</td><TD WIDTH="50%"><center><img src=http://www.fence.org/images/Birds/FenceBirds/crow.jpg width=182 height=237></center>

</td></table>Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila--both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna's lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative.

 

Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna's lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic.</blockquote>

 

gHari