The function of dikSa and Sikza

[Guest guest]

 

Your attempt at explaining how one can totally separate diksa and siksa failed, try again.

 

 

First one should understand the meaning

of these two functions

First:dikSa - di (divya jnana), kSa (washing away of anarthas)

Second: Sikza (which refers to bhajan - the personal way of approaching the deities of the mantra, not to Sravana or the process of dikSa)

 

The dikSa and Sikza guru might be the same, but not necessarily.

 

Nowadays a current misunderstanding is that one takes Sikza from books, because the westerners translated the word Sikza through words like advice or instruction, which is incomplete and so quite leading to confusion.

Reading books is a distorted type of Sravana, not the real Sravana which is imparted through the transcendental sound but the type of Sravana on the level of the mind.

 

"Madhyama-vak is the intermediate unexpressed state of sound, whose seat is in the heart. The word Madhyama means "in between" or "the middle". The middle sound is that sound which exists between the states of sushupti and jagrat. Madhyama-vak refers to mental speech, as opposed to external audible speech. It is on this level that we normally experience thought. Some hold that wakeful thought is still on the level of vaikhari.

 

In the manifestation process, after sound has attained the form of pashyanti-vak, it goes further up to the heart and becomes coupled with the assertive intelligence, being charged with the syllables a, ka, cha, tha, ta, etc. At this point it manifests itself in the form of vibratory nada rupa madhyama-vak. Only those who are endowed with discriminative intelligence can feel this

On the levels of madhyama and vaikhari, there is a distinction between the sound and the object. The object is perceived as something different from the sound, and sound is connected to an object mostly by convention.

 

Pashyanti-vak is the second level of sound, and is less subtle than para-vak. Pashyanti in Sanskrit means "that which can be seen or visualised".

 

In the pashyanti stage sound possesses qualities such as color and form. Yogis who have inner vision can perceive these qualities in sound. On this stage the differences between language do not exist, as this sound is intuitive and situated beyond rigidly defined concepts. On the stage of pashyanti-vak, speech is intuitively connected to the object. There is near oneness between the word and the experience described.

 

Pashyanti-vak is the finest impulse of speech. The seat of pashyanti is in the navel or the Manipura Chakra. When sound goes up to the naval with the bodily air in vibratory form without any particular syllable (varna), yet connected with the mind, it is known as pashyanti-vak.

 

Para-vak is the transcendent sound. Para means highest or farthest, and in this connection it indicates that sound which is beyond the perception of the senses.

 

Para-vak is also known as "rava-shabda" - an unvibratory condition of sound beyond the reach of mind and intelligence (avyakta), only to be realized by great souls, parama-jnanis.

 

On the stage of para-vak there is no distinction between the object and the sound. The sound contains within it all the qualities of the object."

From an article about the transcendental sound, from this Forum.

 

 

your servant the neophyte

[theist]

 

>>Nowadays a current misunderstanding is that one takes Sikza from books, because the westerners translated the word Sikza through words like advice or instruction, which is incomplete and so quite leading to confusion.

<<

 

 

Actually Srila Prabhupada translated it as instruction. That can be seen by simply looking at the synonums he choose

when translating verses.

 

So I will stick to that.

 

[Guest guest]

This seemed to be a good subtopic of another thread, so we have made it a new thread.

[theist]

good idea

 

thanks

[Guest guest]

To spread Krsna consciousness, one need only be cognizant of the science of the spirit soul. It does not matter whether one is a 'brahmana', 'kshatriya', 'vaishya', 'shudra', 'sannyasi', 'grhastha' or whatever. If one simply understands this science, he can become a spiritual master… Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura also states that although one is situated as a 'brahmana', 'kshatriya', 'vaishya', 'shudra', 'brahmacari', 'vanaprastha', 'grhastha' or 'sannyasi', if he is conversant in the science of Krsna he can become a spiritual master as 'vartma-pradarsaka-guru', 'diksa-guru' or 'shiksa-guru'. One who first gives information about spiritual life is called the 'vartma-pradarsaka-guru' or spiritual master. The spiritual master who initiates according to the regulations of the 'shastras' is called 'diksa-guru', and the spiritual master who gives instructions for elevation is called 'shiksa-guru'… Sometimes a caste 'guru' says that 'ye krsna-tattva-vetta, sei guru haya' means that one who is not a 'brahmana' may become a 'shiksa-guru' or a 'vartma-pradarsaka-guru' but not an initiator 'guru'. According to such caste 'gurus', birth and family ties are considered foremost. However, the hereditary consideration is not acceptable to 'Vaisnavas'. The word 'guru' is equally applicable to the 'vartma-pradarsaka-guru', 'siksa-guru' and 'diksa-guru'. Unless we accept the principle enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, this Krsna consciousness movement cannot spread all over the world."(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Chaitanya Charitamrta Madhya lila 8:128 purport.)

[Guest guest]

[qoute]Actually Srila Prabhupada translated it as instruction.

 

 

[theist]

The fact that I cannot fully understood what he atught at this stage is undeneiable. As I become more sincere though the Lord in the heart will reveal more.

 

Read shiva's post above your's. Siksa-guru = instructing spiritual master. If it's good enough for him to write or speak then its good enough for me to hear.

 

I am curious. Do you consider your spiritual master's books to be less than transcendental? If he uses a body, a yantra, to speak some words then that is transcendental but if he uses that same body to write those same words that is somehow mundane, only on the mental level?

[Guest guest]

One can distroy a book, but one cannot destroy the transcendental message which comes from the transcendental person.

 

Para-vak is the transcendent sound. Para means highest or farthest, and in this connection it indicates that sound which is beyond the perception of the senses.

 

Para-vak is also known as "rava-shabda" - an unvibratory condition of sound beyond the reach of mind and intelligence (avyakta), only to be realized by great souls, parama-jnanis.

 

On the stage of para-vak there is no distinction between the object and the sound. The sound contains within it all the qualities of the object.

 

 

 

Srila Jiva Gosvami says in Bhakti sandarbha (anuccheda 237)

 

Yo mantra sa guruh sakshat

Yo guru sa harih svayam

Gurur yasya bhavet tushtas

Tasya tushto harir svayam

 

The guru’s internal, spiritual mood of service to Sri RadhikA and KRSNa is conveyed to the disciple through the medium of a mantra. Everything is given in seed form within the mantra.

 

The paramapara is the disciplic succession of Sabdha brahma

Madya lila 17.48-49

 

keha yadi tanra mukhe sune krsna-nama

tanra mukhe ana sune tanra mukhe ana

 

sabe 'krsna' 'hari' bali' nace, kande, hase

paramparaya 'vaisnava' ha-ila sarva dese

 

When someone heard the chanting of the holy name from the mouth of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and

someone else heard this chanting from that second person, and

someone again heard this chanting from the third person,

everyone in all countries became a Vaisnava through such disciplic succession.

Thus everyone chanted the holy name of Krsna and Hari, and they danced, cried and smiled .

 

Purport (by SACB Svami Prabhupada)

The transcendental power or potency of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra is herein explained. First, the holy name is vibrated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. When someone hears from Him directly, he is purified. When another person hears from that person, he also is purified. In this way the purification process is advanced among pure devotees.Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and no one can claim His potency. Nonetheless, if one is a pure devotee , hundreds and thousands of men can be purified by his vibration.

 

your servant the neophyte

PS

I never read what Siva writes.

[Guest guest]

In bhakti our most important concept is mantra or japa yoga, the way of the transcendetal sound.

 

your servant the neophyte.

[Guest guest]

"I never read what Siva writes'

 

funny thing, i posted a Prabhupada quote,

is that also beneath your level ?

[Guest guest]

Here is the current Sanga issue which goes to the heart of this discussion:

 

 

 

Volume V, No. 16

 

The Magic of Diksa

 

"There is truly some magic in the imparting of the mantra. This magic involves the sharing of the guru's experience of the mantra. It is an act of giving, motivated by nothing other than genuine compassion."

 

 

 

 

Why is the diksa guru limited to one, while siksa gurus can be many?

 

Is diksa and the ceremony surrounding it merely a formality?

 

Are doubts cleared by diksa, or is the clearing of doubts dependent on siksa more than the mere act of initiation?

 

In what spirit should one chant the diksa mantra?

 

Q. Sastra says that there can be only one diksa guru, but there can be many siksa gurus; otherwise, they are essentially the same. My first question is why is the diksa guru limited to one, while siksa gurus can be many?

 

A. Rupa Goswami begins his delineation on the angas of sadhana bhakti thus:

gurpadasrayas tasmat krsna diksadi siksanam

 

1. Take shelter of the feet of the guru

2. Take initiation from him

3. Take siksa from him

 

So first we shall sit with the guru, hear from and observe him while he simultaneously observes us. Then diksa follows and is further supported by siksa. While the diksa and siksa gurus are one in purpose, the sastra tells us their function is different. The diksa guru imparts the mantra, within which is contained our relationship with Krsna in seed form. The siksa guru or gurus water that seed with relevant instructions.

 

In the classic case, the diksa guru is also the siksa guru and he plays the most prominent role in the spiritual life of the disciple. However, it is possible that a siksa guru other than the diksa guru may play the most prominent role in a disciple's spiritual life, especially if the siksa guru is more qualified than the diksa guru. The latter case is exemplified in the life of Thakura Bhaktivinoda wherein his siksa guru, Jagannatha dasa Babaji, played a more important role than did his diksa guru, Bipina Bihari Goswami.

 

The diksa guru is a manifestation of Madana-mohana vigraha in the sense that he gives sambandha-jnana in the form of diksa, over which the deity of Sri Madana-mohana presides. The sambandha-jnana is one. It involves the conceptual orientation to the Gaudiya Vaisnava metaphysical worldview and includes the imparting of the diksa mantra. Part of that worldview is knowledge of one's relationship with Krsna. Again, this is present in the mantra. Thus imparting the mantra is likened to the planting of a seed. The seed is singular, and there is no need to plant it twice.

 

Still, the seed needs to be cultivated and thus there is the need for siksa. The siksa guru is a manifestation of Govindadeva, the presiding deity of abhidheya-jnana, or the knowledge pertaining to the cultivation of the seed. While sambandha-jnana involves a conceptual orientation, abhidheya-jnana involves that which naturally follows from that orientation: the subsequent activity, which in this case is bhakti.

 

In one sense the classic examples of these two manifestations of guru in our tradition are Sri Sanatana and Rupa Goswamis. Sanatana Goswami has written Brhat-bhagavatamrta, a conceptual orientation to the world of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. It is a survey of the interior landscape that orients us to the world of spiritual possibility in consideration of our present position. Rupa Goswami, on the other hand, has written Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, which delineates the nature of bhakti, or that activity that naturally follows from the sambandha-jnana.

 

The sambandha is static, whereas the abhideya is dynamic. For example, what the world is, what the jiva is, what God is, and how they are related does not change. This is sambandha-jnana. How to cultivate bhakti, while one in principle, varies with regard to details.

 

The two gurus are one in the sense that they fully represent Krsna. Madana-mohana and Govindaji are one. The two gurus differ, however, with regard to their function. Again, the function of the diksa guru is singular. He gives the mantra. The function of the siksa guru, on the other hand, is plural; he gives instructions. The siksa guru waters the singular seed and more than one siksa guru can perform this function.

 

Of course, one could legitimately ask, "Is not the imparting of instructions on sambandha-jnana also a form of siksa?" The answer is obviously "yes," which, while extending the meaning of siksa to include such instructions, restricts the meaning of diksa to the actual imparting of the mantra‹no small thing. Srila Sridhara Deva Goswami describes the imparting of the mantra thus: "Just as in a homeopathic globule the outer figure cannot show what medicine is there, so it is with sound--the name Krsna. The one who delivers this, his will is there within. So Krsna, from the mouth of a sadhu, and the Krsna from the mouth of an ordinary person are not one and the same. What the idea behind this sound is, from where it comes, its origin, is it in Vaikuntha, in Goloka, in what rasa, and so on? Gradually the sound will take you there, to that place. The sound, Vaikuntha nama grhanam, the name, must come from the infinite world not any mundane origin." [top]

 

Q. Is diksa and the ceremony surrounding it merely a formality?

 

A. In one sense diksa is the formalization of the relationship between guru and disciple that recognizes something that has already taken place, just as marriage formalizes a relationship already in progress. However, within the formal ceremony something of substance takes place: vows on the part of the disciple and the transmission of the mantra on the part of the guru. While the ceremony may be a formality, the imparting of the mantra is not. This is the substance. The extent to which this act is substantial is dependent on the realization of the guru and the surrender of the disciple. In the same way that the power of one's siksa is dependent on the extent to which one has realized the siksa one gives, similarly the power of diksa depends on the diksa guru's own realization of the mantra he imparts.

 

For example, if a person has been to India, he can speak about India in ways that will be far more compelling than that which we can read in the travel brochure. His experience is conveyed through his speech. Not only does he have personal examples and insights that only one who has experienced the place would be able to relate, but the very quality of his speech, backed by his experience, is superior to that of one who has only theoretical knowledge.

 

Srila Sridhara Deva Goswami speaks of the transfer of the guru's spiritual experience through the mantra in this way: "Externally we cannot recognize what potency is there. It cannot be detected. What is that? Only the man (guru) who gives it--his realization--is the potency within the sound."

 

Therefore, giving diksa requires realization, brahma nistham. Furthermore, diksa also requires fertile soil, and thus it is incumbent on the guru to cultivate the heart of the disciple before imparting the mantra. It is to be given to the faithful soul, not anyone and everyone.

 

Sri Caitanyadeva told Sanatana Goswami that initiation involves full surrender to be complete, at which time the disciple becomes one with Krsna, diksa kale kare tare atma samarpana. He realizes, that is, his qualitative oneness with God, sei kale krsna kare tare atma sama. At that time, the disciple's sadhaka-deha becomes spiritualized, sei deha kara tare cidanandamaya, and continuing to serve in that body, he gains insight into his internal spiritual body in which he engages in Krsna bhajana, aprakrta dehe tanra carana bhajaya. Thus the process of diksa takes time to complete, and it is completed when the disciple realizes sambandha-jnana, clearing his path to bhajana in the stage of asakti. Then the disciple enters bhava-bhakti wherein the insight gained in sadhana-bhakti is further cultivated--the process of churning bhava into prema. Of course, all of this could happen at the very moment that the mantra is imparted as in the case of some of the eternal associates of Mahaprabhu, but for us it will take time. [top]

 

Q. Are doubts cleared by diksa in some magical way or is the clearing of doubts dependent on siksa more than the mere act of initiation?

 

A. Relevant siksa follows diksa and thus doubts are cleared. But doubts are cleared more completely by experience than by siksa itself. This is what we want, tangible spiritual experience resulting from applying the siksa we receive to our spiritual practice.

 

Spiritual practice (sadhana) in and of itself is not a purely rational act. While it is reasonable to suggest that one engage in spiritual practice, the act itself is transrational. Thus there is truly some magic in it as well as in the imparting of the mantra.

 

This magic surrounding the imparting of the mantra involves the invisible sharing of the guru's experience of the mantra. It is an act of giving, an act of love motivated by nothing other than genuine compassion, karunayaha purana ghuyam. It is not a business. Compassion is the motive behind the giving of the mantra, and while it may be reasonable to show compassion, compassionate action itself is not a function of the intellect.

 

There is also magic in the way the mantra works. What we learn from siksa helps us to sincerely apply ourselves in the practice of chanting the mantra. Through sraddha (faith), saranagati (surrender), and mantra dhyana (meditation) performed in the spirit of giving and self-sacrifice leading to the self-forgetfulness of love (svaha), the mantra magically reveals all that is contained within it. If you love something enough, it will reveal all of its secrets.

 

Even in one's material experience, the act of giving is mystically rewarding. When we give we get, yet that which we get we cannot hold up to show another or adequately describe. The fact that we get something when giving is apparent by our contentment and the enthusiasm through which we try to relate our experience. However, reason does not suggest that by giving one will get; this is the magic of life. The world turns on svaha.

 

Receiving the mantra means to be given a second birth. Just outside my window in the rafters a bird has given birth to three chicks. Birds are called dwija in Sanskrit because they are born twice, once within the egg and a second time when the eggs hatch. Our material birth is like that of the chicks within the egg. In this birth our possibilities are extremely limited. But if we are fortunate to meet a genuine sadhu and receive a second birth from him in the form of diksa, our possibilities in life expand beyond anything we could imagine within the egg of our material birth. If we get a second birth, we can fly high in the sky of our spiritual prospect! From being a creature of the earth we can live in the sky. Such is the magic of diksa and siksa as well. [top]

 

Q. In what spirit should one chant the diksa mantra?

 

A. The spirit (pracodayat) in which one should chant the mantra was expressed by Mahaprabhu thus when elaborating on the fifth verse of his Siksastakam: 'dasa' kari' vetana more deha prema-dhana, "Make me your servant, my salary the wealth of love of God." In other words, "Let me engage in divine service for its own sake and nothing more, and let that divine service increase without measure." Full investment in the bank of service with no thought of withdrawal finds one living grandly on the interest accrued. It is significant that Mahaprabhu made this statement while explaining his fifth sloka of Sikstakam. This fifth verse corresponds with the devotional stage of asakti, the final stage of sadhana-bhakti before one enters bhava-bhakti and the world of spiritual emotion proper. Thus Mahaprabhu implies that the diksa mantra helps us within the realm of sadhana up to the stage of asakti and retires when one enters bhava-bhakti as a liberated soul. After liberation is attained, the holy name of Krsna received from Sri Guru comes to the foreground, as the eternally liberated name can only be chanted by a liberated soul.

 

Thus the Krsna mantra helps us to take advantage of Krsna nama, and Krsna nama takes us to Goloka. In Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Mahaprabhu says that his own guru instructed him like this, krsna mantra hoibe habe samsara-mocana, krsna nama haite pabe krsnera carana: "By chanting the Krsna mantra one will be freed from samsara. By chanting Krsna nama one will attain the feet of Krsna." There is also evidence for this in Brhad-bhagavatamrta, wherein Gopa Kumara desists from chanting his mantra after attaining liberation and goes on to attain Goloka by nama-sankirtana and lila-samaranam.

 

 

Your servant,

Audarya-lila dasa

 

 

 

[theist]

I'll ask this question again as I think you may have missed it.

 

"I am curious. Do you consider your spiritual master's books to be less than transcendental? If he uses a body, a yantra, to speak some words then that is transcendental but if he uses that same body to write those same words that is somehow mundane, only on the mental level? "

 

 

[yasodanandana]

the books written by krsna or a pure devotee are trascendental, but we know that we need to learn spiritual science by master, books and tradition (guru, shastra, sadhu)

 

the presence of the master is essential because he teach according time, place and circumstance

 

we can read easily shastra but it could be very difficult to choose the instructions that are good for us

 

an example is arjuna in the gita, he is not irreligious or a sinner, he simply, before asking to krsna, wants to follow a path that is good for sannyasis and brahmanas.. not for ksatrya

 

and

 

how can we learn to became humble, if we do not want anyone chastising ourselves when we are wrong?

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Theist Prabhu,

 

In this material world, in kali yuga, the transcendental message of one pointed unaloyed bhakti in the wake of the vraja sundaris, vRndabanyam rasa keli vartam was lost in time kalena luptam , and the mind and intelligence of the people of this age is very poor, as you well know.

 

So the transcendental message should be written down in form of books. Because these books are like cariers of the transcendental sound, one should see them as transcendental. In fact the carier of the transcendental sound is the sad guru, the compasionate realized soul. When he speaks the pure message contained in those books, bhakti comes in the heart of the listener.

 

Such books are worshipable deities,

but only the transcendental person brings their transcendental message on the level of the soul.

In this connection one should understand that the association of the sad guru is most important, but this again depends on ones previous sukRti and samskaras.

What can we do?

Maybe quarrel.

 

yours neophyte

[theist]

 

I'll ask this question again as I think you may have missed it.Again.

 

"I am curious. Do you consider your spiritual master's books to be less than transcendental? If he uses a body, a yantra, to speak some words then that is transcendental but if he uses that same body to write those same words that is somehow mundane, only on the mental level? "

 

 

I am sure its due to my dull brain not being able to understand your position but I need a clear unequivical answer to to the above question. Thank you.

 

 

[theist]

 

 

 

 

In this material world, in kali yuga, the transcendental message of one pointed unaloyed bhakti in the wake of the vraja sundaris, vRndabanyam rasa keli vartam was lost in time kalena luptam , and the mind and intelligence of the people of this age is very poor, as you well know.

 

 

 

 

So the transcendental message should be written down in form of books. Because these books are like cariers of the transcendental sound, one should see them as transcendental.

 

 

I strongly agree.

 

 

 

In fact the carier of the transcendental sound is the sad guru, the compasionate realized soul. When he speaks the pure message contained in those books, bhakti comes in the heart of the listener.

 

 

But just when he reads the books to you? How about when he translates and comments on those books, or writes books explaning the science of bhakti??

 

Remember that guru is also distinct from the form you see. It is spiritual/bhakti energy but it is also a machine. The vocal chords are not the soul. Your Narayana Maharaja is not an elderly Indian man nor was Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

Such books are worshipable deities,...

 

 

I agree. In fact I offer inscense to Prabhupada's books.

 

 

 

...

but only the transcendental person brings their transcendental message on the level of the soul.

 

 

I would say that only the transcendental person can write transcendental literature in the first place, thus placing himself there in written form. So I accept the books to be on the level of the soul.

 

 

 

In this connection one should understand that the association of the sad guru is most important, but this again depends on ones previous sukRti and samskaras.

What can we do?

Maybe quarrel.

 

 

Prabhupada has clearly stated that acarya is present in his commentaries. Don't worry about you past pious credits. If one feels the urge to read something written by such an enlightened being they should just read. That is association. Better than quarreling.

[yasodanandana]

can you ask questions to a book?

[Guest guest]

In replay to

 

But just when he reads the books to you? How about when he translates and comments on those books, or writes books explaning the science of bhakti??

 

 

Vastu, dharma and tadAtma

 

According vedic knowledge a vastu is a truly abiding object.

When an object is formed

by the desire of the Supreme All Attractive

a PARTICULAR NATURE

is built in that structure.

That PARTICULAR NATURE is called the sva-bhava of that vastu.

That PARTICULAR NATURE is the eternal (nitya) nature (dharma) of that vastu.

 

Besides the nitya dharma (eternal nature) there is also a

naimitik dharma (acquired nature) of an object.

 

The naimitik dharma is not the real nature of the object (vastu), but

is acquired by long term association

by force of circumstances

contact with other objects and

takes the appearance of permanence

 

The object (vastu), which has existence by itself can be

- vastav – eternally existing – spiritual

- avastav – temporary existing – material (which has a semblance of existence- sometimes true, sometimes false.

 

A car, a typewriter, or whatever might be used in one’s sadhana, are avastava vastu, a temporary material object, whose sva bhava (particular nature) is related to this material world.

Let us say they are like iron. Who is the fire?

 

 

[Guest guest]

In Srimad Bhagavatam (1.1.2) it is stated

 

Vedyam vastava (m) atra vastu shivadam

 

Only a truly existing (vastavam) object (vastu)

Which is related to the Supreme Absolute Truth (atra shivadam)

Is worth of being known (vedyam)

 

Sadhu means the one that has relation with sad vastu , with the eternal truth.

A gaudya vaisnava sadhu means sadnoti sadayati ca krsna prema iti sadhu, who themself is doing sadhana and by his association, he can cause you to come into the line of Suddha sadhana bhakti, and he teaches you what is your sadhya , the goal of your sadhana.

Sadhu is a pure devotee, by whose mercy bhakti manifest itself upon the seses of the sadhaka, spiritualises them and causes them to attain tadAtma , oneness with its nature

 

KRti sadhya bhavet sadhya

Bhava sa sadhanAbhidha

Nitya siddhasya bhavasya

Prakatyam hRdi sAdhyata

 

That bhakti which is accomplished

Through the function of the senses

And by which bhava bhakti is obtained

Is called saddhana bhakti

The manifesting of the nitya siddha bhava

Within the heart of the purified jiva

Is called sadhyata

 

When the faithful jiva, through his own effort performs bhagavan nama kirtana, with his material tongue, or hears bhgavat katha with his material ears, such an endeavor is called indrya vyapara , engagement of the senses.

These are preliminary activities to bhakti, they prepare someone for bhakti

just as for yajNa we have to collect some paraphernalia.

Because these activities prepare one for bhakti, they are accepted as bhakti, but truly they are not bhakti.

Bhakti is a function of the svarupa Sakti, not of the material senses.

 

As long as the iron is not in connection with the fire, it will remain iron.

Only one vastu that has fire in itself (the soul), after ignition (manifestation of bhava) can remain in this condition, and be the giver of fire for others ,

and the way of ignition is the transcendental sound .

 

the neophyte

[theist]

>>can you ask questions to a book? <<

 

Krsna in your heart hears your question before your conscious mind actually finishes formulating it. The answer comes from Him and can be found surely in Prabhupada's books or in the works of other previous acarya's if it pertains to Krsna-bhakti.

 

What kind of question are you speaking of? How to tie a dhoti? How much Vit. C does one need in a day? There are different types of questions.

 

If not directly to Krsna-bhakti then Supersoul will lead you elsewhere. Sick? Go to a doctor. Car trouble? Go to a mechanic. Want to learn higher math? Go to college.

 

Another angle is when I read Prabhupada's books I ALWAYS get answers to questions I was too dull to have asked. There is surely enough contained in them for the rest of my life and undoubtly many more past that. There is enough there even for me to stop the cylce altogether if I take advantage seriously.

 

Why not approach Prabhupada's books with reverence and expect answers to life's questions to be contained within them?

 

If they don't contain the answers why read them at all?

 

People would write Prabhupada all the time with questions and he would say I have already covered that in my books.

 

One can have a specific question and then try to research it out in the works of the acaryas. We can't be lazy, we are suppose to apply ourselves. Afterall, its our search for Godhead that we are undertaking. At some point the mother stops spoon feeding the infant and teaches it how to use its own spoon.

 

Another angle is to simply approach someone more advanced on the path. I disagree with the idea that guru needs to be cent per cent perfect before he can give instruction.

 

 

Another thing is that details on how to present Krsna within the context of everyone's own individual circumstance could not possibly be covered by any number of books. For that it is expected that disciples become independent and thoughtful. If one is sincere Supersoul will inspire you from the heart on how to best proceed.

 

I am not saying that Krsna may not lead you to someone in a body as your guru. I oppose those "Prabhupada is the last guru for the next 10,000 years" characters as fanatic flag wavers.

 

But on the other hand Supersoul may choose to reveal Himself to someone primarily from Prabhupada's books as well. I also avoid the you must have a "livng" guru walas as well. They tend to miimize Prabhupada's books as not so relevant now that he is gone. I cover my ears to that kind of talk.

 

If I want to feed my mundane aspect I will just watch a boxing match or something else that doesn't come with this kind of aparadha attached.

 

I don't have to be a carbon copy of you nor you one of me.

 

The Lord is very broad.

[theist]

Hey neophyte when you want to talk as aperson instead of this copy and paste business then let me know.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

has written a wonderful song Nitai-Gaura NAma

 

The holy names of Nitai and Gaura are the abode of all jubilation. Those who never utter these names are taken by yAma mahaArAja and immersed in the hellish planets. (1)

 

Those who never wear tulasi neckbeads take their permanent residence in the abode of yAma mahArAja, and those who never adorn their foreheads with tilaka live their lives in vain. (2)

 

the forth Sloka:

 

guru mantra sAra kore ei bAra brajete hoibe bAsa

tamo guNa jAbe sattva guNa pabe hoibe kRSNera dAsa

 

Now the time has come to receive dikSA from Sri Guru.

If one chants these mantras carefully, one will come to live forever in Braja.

The mode of ignorance will go, goodness will come in the heart, and one will attain the position of a servant of kRSNa.

 

If one studies the books for many years, but the mood of surrender to gurudeva has not come, we should see such a person as not very fortunate.

Who has the great fortune to be in the company of pure devotees?

 

the neophyte

[yasodanandana]

"People would write Prabhupada all the time with questions and he would say I have already covered that in my books."

 

it is very difficult to find the answer for me between the ones given to Satsvarupa, Hamsadutta, Jadurani, Andy Warhols, george Harrison etc... doing like that seems to me that i want simply choose the answer i like more

 

"I disagree with the idea that guru needs to be cent per cent perfect before he can give instruction"

 

please read sri guruvastakam.... this is the guru, nothing less

 

"They tend to miimize Prabhupada's books as not so relevant now that he is gone. I cover my ears to that kind of talk."

 

to minimize prabhupad's instructions is to accept everything minus the one asking to take shelter from a pure living devotee... guru is omnipotent and infinite, the spiritual variety is infinite so you can take shelter without be a carbon copy of anyone... to do everything by ourselves, thinking that we are self sufficient, is the carbon copy of what happens everyday in the material world...

 

of course i am speaking only in philosophical terms, i do not know you, i have not right to criticize you

 

"The Lord is very broad. "

 

the spiritual master too..... material life not at all

[Guest guest]

I prefer to talk about principles, and everybody, according his intelligence, can apply them to persons, more or less directly, more or less offensive.

In the net that would be my only way to avoid ofenses.

 

Also the principle of a vastu, which can be vastava or avastava, and has its own dharma, and the principle of tadAtma, you can apply it according your understanding to books. I tried to explain something, but I am not so proficient, this is only my fault.

 

Also the principle of Sravana, dikSA and Sikza guru, you can apply it in your life, everything comes from a bonafide source: bhakti sandarbha.

 

How can one come out from the stage of bhakti with aparadhas?

 

the neophyte