Hinduism

[Guest guest]

sa tadvarapariikShaartha.m shambhormuurdhni kilaasuraH |

svahasta.m dhaatum aarebhe so'bibhyat svakR^itaachchhivaH || bhaa 10.88.23 ||

 

To test Lord Shambhu's benediction, the demon then tried to put his hand on the lord's head. Thus Shiva was frightened because of what he himself had done. (bhaagavata puraaNa 10.88.23 )

 

tenopasR^iShTaH santrastaH paraadhaavan savepathuH |

yaavadanta.m divo bhuumeH kaaShThaanaamudagaadudak || bhaa 10.88.24 ||

 

As the demon pursued him, Lord Shiva fled swiftly from his abode in the north, shaking with terror. He ran as far as the limits of the earth, the sky and the corners of the universe (bhaagavata puraaNa 10.88.24)

 

[Guest guest]

pR^ithagvidhaani praayu.nkta piNaakyastraaNi shaar.ngiNe |

pratyastraiH shamayaamaasa shaar.ngapaaNiravismitaH || bhaa 10.63.12 ||

 

Lord Shiva, wielder of the trident, shot various weapons at Lord Krishna, wielder of Shaarnga. But Lord Krishna was not in the least perplexed: He neutralized all these weapons with appropriate counter-weapons. (bhaagavata puraaNa 10.63.12)

 

mohayitvaa tu girisha.m jR^imbhaNaastreNa jR^imbhitam |

baaNasya pR^itanaa.m shaurirjaghaanaasigadeShubhiH || bhaa 10.63.14)

 

After bewildering Lord Shiva by making him yawn with a yawning weapon, Lord Krishna proceeded to strike down Baanaasura's army with His sword, club and arrows. (bhaagavata puraaNa 10.63.14)

[Guest guest]

Sri Vakrathunda mahaakaaya kotisuryasamaprabha

nirvighnam kurume deva subhakaryeshu sarvadaa

 

Wow my lord can run to the limit of the earth, the sky and the corner of the universe in terror from this demon is it not wonderful.

He can drink the poison that came out from the ocean. The whole world was chocking, all the devas and demons were trembling.

But he could not kill this demon.

He can destroy the whole creation to recreate.

But he could not kill this demon.

Just like a father who allows his child to overpower him or the father may some times exhibit fear of the child that is in no way the child is greater than the father. Lord Shiva would not kill the demon simply because he was his devotee.

By his simple glance he could have killed him.

Lesson I learn from this is do not misuse your power or else you get consumed by your own foolishness.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

 

Sri Vakrathunda mahaakaaya kotisuryasamaprabha

nirvighnam kurume deva subhakaryeshu sarvadaa

 

 

RE (is Shiva on the same level as Vishnu you be the judge)

 

Far for me to be the judge, they are the same is not because I say so.

 

I have been exposed to both to be the same from my child hood that is my faith.

It is the supreme Lord who creates, maintains and destroys to recreate.

As I read Bhagvat Gita Krishna say I am Vishnu. I am Shiva (saivetes literature confirms this)

 

Vishupuran say this 5.33-46 yo harih sa siva saksad yah sivah sa svayam harih ye tayor bhedam ati sthan narak aya bhave narah.

Whoever is lord hari, he himself is lord shiva indeed any human being mistake both the lords to be different,he/she surely goes to hell

 

In Vishnu shastra naam both the Lords names are mentioned

 

Lord Ram worshiped Lord Shiva at rameshvaram

 

Yatha siva mayo vishnuh

Sivasya hrdyam Visnur Visnoz ca hrdayam Sivah(Skanda puran)

Just as Lord Vishnu is pervaded by Lord Shiva,

Similarly, in Shivas heart Vishnu resides and Vishnus heart is abode of Shiva.

 

 

 

Krishna is Gopinath Shiva is Gopishvara

Shiva is Durga pati Krishna is Yogeshvara

 

I have yet to read any where, either Vishnu or Shiva denouncing each other, on the contrary they do speak of their oneness.

Hindus over the years respected other religions let alone different sampradayas.

At the end of the day it is up to an individual, through his/her sincere devotion and the lords mercy would they cross over the material existence.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

Nowhere is it claimed in the Bhaagavatam that he refused to kill the demon because the demon was his devotee. The demon was trying to kill Shiva - what kind of devotee would do such a thing?

 

Here is what the Bhaagavatam states:

 

sa tadvarapariikShaartha.m shambhormuurdhni kilaasuraH |

svahasta.m dhaatum aarebhe so'bibhyat svakR^itaachchhivaH || bhaa 10.88.23 ||

 

To test Lord Shambhu's benediction, the demon then tried to put his hand on the lord's head. Thus Shiva was frightened because of what he himself had done. (bhaagavata puraaNa 10.88.23 )

 

tenopasR^iShTaH santrastaH paraadhaavan savepathuH |

yaavadanta.m divo bhuumeH kaaShThaanaamudagaadudak || bhaa 10.88.24 ||

 

As the demon pursued him, Lord Shiva fled swiftly from his abode in the north, shaking with terror. He ran as far as the limits of the earth, the sky and the corners of the universe (bhaagavata puraaNa 10.88.24)

 

Nothing in the above about Shiva play acting. He may be very powerful, enough that he can drink poison, run across the ends of the earth, but that does not make him the same as Vishnu.

 

[Guest guest]

Brahma-samhitaa 5.45 explains that Shiva is an expansion/transformation of Vishnu rather than an individual jiiva.

 

kShiira.m yathaa dadhi vikaaravisheShayogaat sa~`njaayate na hi tataH pR^ithag asti hetoH |

yaH shambhutaam api tathaa samupaiti kaaryaad govindam aadipuruSha.m tam aha.m bhajaami || 5.45 ||

 

Just as milk is transformed into curd by the action of acids, but yet the effect curd is neither same as, nor different from, its cause, viz., milk, so I adore the primeval Lord Govinda of whom the state of Shambhu is a transformation for the performance of the work of destruction.

 

The example of milk and yogurt is given to compare Vishnu and Shiva. Just as you can get yogurt from milk and both are same in substance, nevertheless there exists a difference. Milk and yogurt are not the same, nor can you get milk from yogurt. Thus Shiva is in one sense the same as Vishnu, from the perspective of a jiiva, but on the absolute platform even Shiva is different and subordinate to Vishnu.

 

This is the only answer which reconciles all contradictory pramaanas regarding Shiva and Vishnu's position. This is why some Puraanas glorify Shiva as supreme even though his supremacy is relative to Vishnu's. Shiva is still not on the same level of Vishnu anymore than yogurt is the same as milk, though both are similar.

 

Taking only this verse

 

 

Vishupuran say this 5.33-46 yo harih sa siva saksad yah sivah sa svayam harih ye tayor bhedam ati sthan narak aya bhave narah.

Whoever is lord hari, he himself is lord shiva indeed any human being mistake both the lords to be different,he/she surely goes to hell

 

 

 

...and others like it, while ignoring verses like the following:

 

pR^ithagvidhaani praayu.nkta piNaakyastraaNi shaar.ngiNe |

pratyastraiH shamayaamaasa shaar.ngapaaNiravismitaH || bhaa 10.63.12 ||

 

Lord Shiva, wielder of the trident, shot various weapons at Lord Krishna, wielder of Shaarnga. But Lord Krishna was not in the least perplexed: He neutralized all these weapons with appropriate counter-weapons. (bhaagavata puraaNa 10.63.12)

 

mohayitvaa tu girisha.m jR^imbhaNaastreNa jR^imbhitam |

baaNasya pR^itanaa.m shaurirjaghaanaasigadeShubhiH || bhaa 10.63.14)

 

After bewildering Lord Shiva by making him yawn with a yawning weapon, Lord Krishna proceeded to strike down Baanaasura's army with His sword, club and arrows. (bhaagavata puraaNa 10.63.14)

 

... gives an incomplete presentation of Lord Shiva's position. Of course, that's your agenda all along. But it is not mine. Correct siddhaanta (which your view is not) must reconcile all pramaanas, not only the ones convenient for one's position. Lord Shiva's oneness with Hari is explained by Brahma-samhitaa 5.45, but even in that semblance of oneness a significant difference exists, making Shiva subordinate to Vishnu.

 

As far as the rest of your "arguments," all of them have been addressed by me before. I'm not going to repeat myself simply because you cannot comprehend what has been written already, or because you think ignoring them constitutes a scholarly response.

 

As far as your "faith" is concerned, having faith in something does not necessarily make it correct. As mentioned by me previously, you are only interested in evidence which can prove your chosen conclusion, rather than the conclusion which is based on all the evidence. The Vishnu Puraana verse you brought up is neatly reconciled with the BrS 5.45's statement about Shiva's difference from Vishnu, but the Bhaagavatam verses I brought up showing Shiva's difference from Vishnu are not reconciled with your theory that Vishnu and Shiva are the same supreme lord.

 

Lord Shiva says to Satii that he always worships Vaasudeva in such consciousness that He is revealed without any covering:

 

sattva.m vishuddha.m vasudevashabdita.m yadiiyate tatra pumaanapaavR^itaH |

sattve cha tasmin bhagavaan vaasudevo hyadhokShajo me namasaa vidhiiyate || bhaa 4.3.23 ||

 

The shruti further confirms that Shiva is subordinate to Vishnu, since it is from Vishnu that Shiva is created:

 

atha puruSho ha vai naaraayaNo 'kaamayata prajaa sR^ijeyeti |

naaraayaNaat praaNo jaayate manaH sarvendriyaaNi cha kha.m vaayur jyotir aapaH pR^ithivii vishvasya dhaariNii |

naaraayaNaad brahmaa jaayate |

naaraayaNaad rudro jaayate |

naaraayaNaad indro jaayate |

naaraayaNat prajaapatiH prajaayate |

naaraayaNaad dvadashaadityaa rudraa vasavaH sarvaaNi chandaa.msi naaraayaNaad eva samutpadyante naaraayaNat pravartante naaraayaNe praliiyante |

etad R^ig-vedo-shiro 'dhiite || naaraayaNopaniShad 1 ||

 

Naaraayana is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He desired, "I shall create children." From Naaraayana the life breath, mind, all the senses, either, air, fire, water, and earth, which maintains the universe, were born. From Naaraayana Brahmaa was born. From Naaraayana Shiva was born. From Naaraayana Indra was born. From Naaraayana Prajaapati was born. From Naaraayana the twelve Adityas, the Rudras, the Vasus, and all the Vedic hymns were born. From Naaraayana they were manifested. Into Naaraayana they again enter. This is the crown of the R^ig Veda (naaraayaNopaniShad 1).

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sri Vakrathunda mahaakaaya kotisuryasamaprabha

nirvighnam kurume deva subhakaryeshu sarvadaa

 

re

Nowhere is it claimed in the Bhaagavatam that he refused to kill the demon because the demon was his devotee.

 

I never said this was in Bhaagavatam,but the demon was his devotee.

 

re

( The demon was trying to kill Shiva - what kind of devotee would do such a thing?)

 

you tell me some people kill their own parents what kind of child is that?what do you expect of a demon?

Re

(Nothing in the above about Shiva play acting.)

 

Sure,think what you like.

 

Re

( He may be very powerful, enough that he can drink poison, run across the ends of the earth, but that does not make him the same as Vishnu)

 

I did not quate this to make him same as Vishnu

You may care to read my further post

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

pR^ithagvidhaani praayu.nkta piNaakyastraaNi shaar.ngiNe |

pratyastraiH shamayaamaasa shaar.ngapaaNiravismitaH || bhaa 10.63.12 ||

 

Lord Shiva, wielder of the trident, shot various weapons at Lord Krishna, wielder of Shaarnga. But Lord Krishna was not in the least perplexed: He neutralized all these weapons with appropriate counter-weapons. (bhaagavata puraaNa 10.63.12)

 

mohayitvaa tu girisha.m jR^imbhaNaastreNa jR^imbhitam |

baaNasya pR^itanaa.m shaurirjaghaanaasigadeShubhiH || bhaa 10.63.14)

 

After bewildering Lord Shiva by making him yawn with a yawning weapon, Lord Krishna proceeded to strike down Baanaasura's army with His sword, club and arrows. (bhaagavata puraaNa 10.63.14)