Govindaram Posted August 2, 2003 Report Share Posted August 2, 2003 Ram asked Hanuman, "Hanuman what attitude do you cherish towards me?" Hanuman answered, 'O Rama, when I think I am the body, You are the Master and I am Your servant; when I think I am the jivatman (individual soul), You are the whole and I am a part; but when I have the knowledge of Reality (Atman), I see that You are I and I am you'. <font color="blue">O </font color> <font color="green"> Mind </font color> <font color="red"> Just </font color> <font color="orange">Worship </font color> <font color="black"> Krsna </font color> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted August 2, 2003 Report Share Posted August 2, 2003 I would watch what transalation I was reading a little more closely if I were you Govindaram. If anyone accepts the quote you posted into their heart their spiritual life will be ruined. It's mayavad nonsense. I have attempted some commentary from their point of view. It shouldn't make much sense if I have been successful. 'O Rama, when I think I am the body, You are the Master and I am Your servant; Bhakti is a temporary condition performed only when one is in grossest material consciousness. This is why we talk our mayavad in such sentimental pseudo bhakti terms; the poor souls in this age can't yet handle the the truth. when I think I am the jivatman (individual soul), You are the whole and I am a part; When one has a strong sense that they are spirit in nature but are still affected by intelligence and false ego and thus individualization, they still make distinctions between themselves and the undifferentiated whole. but when I have the knowledge of Reality (Atman), I see that You are I and I am you'. All leading to the final reality that I am everything without any distinction, the One and only Self. With this realization you realize there is none superior to I and none lower. Although someparts of your self don't know that yet and so you may accept bhakti from them until they understand they are worshipping them self. If you see any obvious contradictions with this just ignore them, it is only maya's bewilderment upon "you" and will pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted August 2, 2003 Report Share Posted August 2, 2003 I have read somewhere that it is taken from Ramacaritmanas. Could you tell me where exactly in Ramacaritmanas? If it is not from Ramacaritmanas, then please tell the correct source. I am asking this just out of curiosity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govindaram Posted August 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2003 Hare Krishna WOW Mayavada! I just got the quote from the back of my Hanuman Chalisa, so I guess it must be by Ramakrishnaji, there are a lot of quotes from him in the Chalisa, the quote I posted "to me" gives the message that Hanuman is so immersed in His service to Lord Sri Rama, his most dearest Master, that he has them within his heart, so that's why he says they are one. Someone with higher intellect may interpret it differently from me. <font color="blue">O </font color> <font color="green"> Mind </font color> <font color="red"> Just </font color> <font color="orange">Worship </font color> <font color="black"> Krsna </font color> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted August 2, 2003 Report Share Posted August 2, 2003 yes... this quote is mayavada only if we read it out of context... the ramayana, surely does not suggest in any way an oneness in existence of rama and hanuman or a "merging" or anything like that.. surely hanuman says that as an expression of deep and intense love......in this way the heart and mind of hanuman is surely one with sitaram /images/graemlins/smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted August 2, 2003 Report Share Posted August 2, 2003 I think you both have vaisnava translating systems operating that even when mayavad comes towards your consciousness, you mind corrects it and only allows proper siddhanta to come through. 'O Rama, when I think I am the body, You are the Master and I am Your servant; when I think I am the jivatman (individual soul), You are the whole and I am a part; but when I have the knowledge of Reality (Atman), I see that You are I and I am you'. "O'Rama, when I think I am the the body, You are the Master and I am Your servant;..." So the Master servant relationship only lasts as long as the soul is in deep illusion as to the nature of his identity. That is not Vaisnavism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted August 2, 2003 Report Share Posted August 2, 2003 This discussion kind of ties in to a question I wanted to ask and that is the spiritual master is the transparent medium to serving Krishna and ultimately it is the spiritual masters job to deliver Krishna to the devotee. So in the Vaikuntha planets do you still serve Krishna through the spiritual master or once you are cleaned of all material contamination do you ever serve Krishna directly? I realize either way you would be eternally indebted to your spiritual master but I was wondering if in the spiritual realm you serve Krishna directly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted August 2, 2003 Report Share Posted August 2, 2003 "I think you both have vaisnava translating systems operating that even when mayavad comes towards your consciousness, you mind corrects it and only allows proper siddhanta to come through." no, simply many things become clear when they are seen in the complete picture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted August 2, 2003 Report Share Posted August 2, 2003 the song says : "janme janme prabhu sei"... you're my master life after life and, the goal of the devote is not to jump over parampara, we like to serve the servant of the servant of the servant of krsna in the spiritual world everything is possible... we make a flower garland for krsna, for example, maybe we will give it to our "gopi leader(the guru)", who will give it to another gopi, then radhe etc....... maybe, by intercession of (=introduced by) guru and radharani we'll give directly to krsna like we do archana and puja... we are doing directly something for krsna rupa, we are directly serving him , but it is due to the mercy of guru and vaishnavas who have given to us, sadhana, nama, diksa, krsna darshana etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted August 2, 2003 Report Share Posted August 2, 2003 I guess what I am getting at is in the material world we are being reformed and chastised for our insubordinance to Krishna and the spiritual master helps us correct that situation. Once that situation is corrected we essentially become playmates of Krishna don't we? So instead of thinking of Him as our spiritual master we think of Him as our best friend and we can't wait to get up in the morning to go play with Krishna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted August 2, 2003 Report Share Posted August 2, 2003 yashodanandana, We know that mayavadis also have their translation of sciptures written from their perspective. Vaisnavas do as well. So how do we tell the difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted August 2, 2003 Report Share Posted August 2, 2003 So will you ever get to actually see Krishna or just the servant of Krishna? In the Vaikuntha planets do you actually get to meet Krishna and talk to Him or just His servant? When I say just His servant I don't mean to minimize His servant. I just thought I read in Srila Prabhupada's books that when you go back to Godhead you actually to get to meet Krishna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govindaram Posted August 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2003 Hare Krishna You really do want to meet Krishna don't you! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted August 2, 2003 Report Share Posted August 2, 2003 it is very difficult for me, being a conditioned soul, to speak of the relationships of vaikunta... but two things: 1)to be a disciple is a love relationship, so in a pure state of consciousness we do not see it as a limit or a frustration and we do not see the spiritual master as an obstacle to reach krsna..... if we will play directly with govinda or we will serve anyone who will be playing directly with Him, it will not do any difference for us 2)we can see disciple and master relationship also in eternally liberated persons (prabhupada - bhaktisiddhanta) and also with the supreme personality of godhead (krsna - sandipani muni) ............... spiritual master is ultimately for increasing the freedom, not for limiting it... it is very easy to see if the attachment of srila prabhupada for his spiritual master was a limiting factor for him or not let us try to understand that the spiritual environment do not works with the material world's logic .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted August 2, 2003 Report Share Posted August 2, 2003 as i have badly said (i am sorry for my very bad english) direct and indirect relationship are possible, there's not real difference between them, but we will ever think that krsna, vaikunta, goloka is given to us by our spiritual master(s) and we will be eternally grateful to him (/them) "janme janme" continues also in the spiritual world.. we cannot enter or remain there if we are not humbly, deeply and totally grateful to vaishnavas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govindaram Posted August 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2003 Hare Krishna Also isn't there a relationship between the Spiritual Master & Disciple, its not like the army or something where the disciple just takes orders, theres also sweet joking, Radha-Krisna stories being told etc, I'm sure its Not a mundane relationship like in the material world but much much more. <font color="blue">O </font color> <font color="green"> Mind </font color> <font color="red"> Just </font color> <font color="orange">Worship </font color> <font color="black"> Krsna </font color> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted August 2, 2003 Report Share Posted August 2, 2003 simply, in the spiritual world, EVERYTHING IS THERE.. also chastisements, also armys and soldiers (in the dvaraka's or vishnu's army..) but everything is VAIKUNTA (= no anxiety, no frustration) and full of eternity, consciousness and bliss..... SAT CIT ANANDA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted August 2, 2003 Report Share Posted August 2, 2003 OK, thanks for answering my questions. I appreciate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted August 3, 2003 Report Share Posted August 3, 2003 This quote is clearly advaita-vedanta, it has no connection with Vaishnava siddhanta at all. 'O Rama, when I think I am the body, You are the Master and I am Your servant; When I think I am the body, i.e. when I am in avidya and identifying with the material elements... As long as one is identifying with the material body, Ram is the master and I am the servant. This is reference to the vyavaharika platform of worship, where one perceives differences between the self and Brahman due to material identification. Once that false identification with matter is removed, the concept of Ram being the master is also removed and one comes to a higher understanding of the self. What is that higher understanding: when I think I am the jivatman (individual soul), You are the whole and I am a part; When one thinks he is an individual soul (jivatma), he is still in ignorance, but has identified his nature as sat-chid-ananda, thus he thinks Rama is the whole, and the individual soul is the part. But as will be pointed out in the next portion, this is not full knowledge, for when he comes to knowledge he will realize we are not actually the part and parcel of God - we are in fact one with God. but when I have the knowledge of Reality (Atman), I see that You are I and I am you'. Now the true reality has been identified and distinguished from the previous conceptions with the words "but when". This clearly shows the previous conceptions were incorrect understandings due to false identifications with the body and jivatma, (which pointed out in this quote are not the true "reality", are not a product of actual "knowledge", but are aspects of avidya or ignorance). When we come to the point of full knowledge and see the actual reality of existence, there is no servant/master, and there is no part/whole, but there is only one. I am He and He is Me. Welcome to advaita siddhanta. This is their view word for word. It is unfortunate that vaishnavas are unable to identify this due to falsely placed sentiments. This is the danger of reading literature that uses bhakti as a medium to present non-bhakti conclusions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2003 Report Share Posted August 4, 2003 << but when I have the knowledge of Reality (Atman), I see that You are I and I am you'. >> hard to believe a devotee could say it. Please give specific quote if it says so. jai sri krishna! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govindaram Posted August 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2003 Hare Krishna Prabhuji Finally NOW I understand why Srila Prabhupada rejected the Ram Charita Manas of Tulasidasji, it is because there was a little HINT of Mayavada in it, and people of this 'age' would pick up on it, so he accepted the Bhagavatam (which I just started reading from the START, Bliss), I just quoted a verse very innocently on this thread and got replys back of posting mayavada philosophy! so it shows why Srila Prabhupada rejected the book, Jaya Srila Prabhupada!! ps. some people can read the Ram Charita Manas 'maybe' and understand it perfectly, but most people will find a different meaning, but NOT in the case of the Srimad Bhagavatam. <font color="blue">O </font color> <font color="green"> Mind </font color> <font color="red"> Just </font color> <font color="orange">Worship </font color> <font color="black"> Krsna </font color> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted August 4, 2003 Report Share Posted August 4, 2003 Govindaram. Very advanced devotees can read these things perhaps and not be effected, although they may be found reading other things. Ourselves though, on this begining level, have to be very very careful. A few drops of poison in the nectar could kill us very easily. We are not Prahlad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govindaram Posted August 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2003 Hare Krishna I've never been that quick even in school /images/graemlins/mad.gif and I think this /images/graemlins/frown.gif Mayavada /images/graemlins/frown.gif philosophy is harder to understand than bone-fide writings of Vaisnavas! /images/graemlins/grin.gif <font color="blue">O </font color> <font color="green"> Mind </font color> <font color="red"> Just </font color> <font color="orange">Worship </font color> <font color="black"> Krsna </font color> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted August 4, 2003 Report Share Posted August 4, 2003 I've never been quick in school either. For people like us our only hope lies in Supersoul. Without Supersoul's protection we are easy prey. I could be in a room with 108 bonafide teachers and I would still mis-understand what they were saying unless the Lord in the heart revealed the understanding in my heart. Helpless really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingentity Posted August 4, 2003 Report Share Posted August 4, 2003 philosophy is poison disquised with flowery word play meant to confuse and appear authorized. Very dangerous and so hard to detect sometimes. It worries me sometimes that an innocent seeker could type in Krishna and up will pop so much misinformation. Mayavada philosophy is harder to understand than bone-fide writings of Vaisnavas! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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