Homosexuality with Vaishnava theology is a direct offense to Srila Prabhupada

[Priitaa]

 

You may say :" Those who say this topic should not even posted to these forums, that the topic should be avoided or that everything here must be kept "pure," I humbly disagree. To stick our heads in the sand like an ostrich does not make problems go away, though it certainly will help them grow. "

 

You are right, the problem does get highlighted. Also, it gets discussed, but discussing this on a discussion forum does not solve the problem.

 

When discussing the issues then we should not "To stick our heads in the sand like an ostrich" . People here come to discuss about krishna, not about this stuff.

 

These issues of homosexuality constantly raid this forum and same points get discussed, just by different people and finally it turns ugly. The ugly posts were usually started by Guruvani, but now god das started it.

 

Anyway, I shouldn't even be here, may be I should just avoid this and go find posts that actually talk about God.

 

 

I bet they made the same points when Gurukuli abuse was going on.

 

True, it won't be solved here. But we have to stop thinking in the large "sledge hammer" terms. That is, that only if we go thru the GBC or some authority, problems will get solved. Actually they are suppose to be servants of the people. If the people starts to scream loud enough, they will listen. If they dont, in time they will loose their post which they are very attached to. So instead of a sleduge hammer, the tiny jewelers hammer will also work, as word gets spread through word of mouth and ultimately goes full circle.

 

But you're right, if a person can't take it, then don't click on the thread.

[theist]

I found it obvious what Jndas was meaning when he showed reluctance to offer all the details. He has in the past and is sick of having to repost the same points every other month.

 

The fact that this thread was even brought back up was a shame.

 

Many of Prabhupada's disciples apparently would like to see his mission stay as he wished so that Krsna consciousness could grow and flourish. That means protecting it from whimsical deviations of all varieties.

[Priitaa]

 

If the temples really consist of pure devotees of the lord, then the gays , lesbians, stupid people, geniuses, prodigies and who ever and how wierd they may be would be treated the same way.

 

 

I dont know that anyone said the temples are filled with pure deovtees. ha There are all different types of devotees and not just one type. I agree things should be different. I also agree times have changed since Prabhupada was personally present. The entire energy is different now. However, not to misunderstand. Its not as if all the people in all the temples are prejudiced or fanatics. There are more kind hearted souls there and they are not mentioned here since they are not the topic. Its like going to see a doctor regularly. He (theoretically) says, "I dont know one of you Hare Krishna's who is healthy." Then we point out, "You are a doctor. You never see anybody when they are healthy." ha So there are many wonderful devotees who live in the temples, as well as out of them.

 

Just for the record, this problem is a symptom of kali yuga and not any one type of temple or organization. It goes on in Hindu temples too.

 

 

Just stopping to eat meat does not please the lord, if we still carry bunch of junk in our brains.

 

 

True. Though eating meat can bring on wars, disease and pestilence. Still, becoming a vegetarian is not enough. One must change their consciousness as well. (Though devotees aren't mere vegetarians. They eat Krishna prasad. Another topic.)

[stonehearted]

theist: I found it obvious what Jndas was meaning when he showed reluctance to offer all the details. He has in the past and is sick of having to repost the same points every other month.

 

Babhru: I did, too, and I agree completely with you.

 

t: The fact that this thread was even brought back up was a shame.

 

B: Ditto. I guess Mahaksha had a reason for expressing his feelings, and, while I was happy to hear from him, as I always am, I feared this may happen.

[Guest guest]

" Its like going to see a doctor regularly. He (theoretically) says, "I dont know one of you Hare Krishna's who is healthy." Then we point out, "You are a doctor. You never see anybody when they are healthy." ha So there are many wonderful devotees who live in the temples, as well as out of them."

 

Nice example /images/graemlins/smile.gif ( I was just curious, I am out of here) .

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

However, I need to point out that the quotations you provide don't actually support the assertions you seem to think they do. The first one, for example doesn't say that one form of sex isn't sinful, as you claim it does, but that Kama Sutra (yeah, I know) says it's natural, whereas another form is not.

 

 

The particular quote was discussing the following verse:

 

ye tu mUDhA durAcArA viyonau maithune ratAH

puruSeSu suduSprajJAH klIbatvam upayAnti te

 

The word duracara, or bad conduct indicates sinful activity, and in responce, the GALVA people have given the statement I quoted above. I won't get into the details, but anyone who considers this point honestly should be able to figure out what they said (that one type of homosex is bad, but another type of homosex is natural and not included in duracara).

 

[i am leaving for Mayapur today to partake in the shraddha ceremony for Mahamadhusudana prabhu who passed away recently, so I will not be able to participate further in this thread.]

[Gaurasundara]

I thought Vaishnavas did not have a need to perform sraddha ceremonies. Please elaborate on this if you can. Don't worry about a late reply, I'll gladly wait.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Ramanuja advises Vaishnavas to perform shraddha ceremonies to set the proper example for the public. He instructs that the karma-kanda aspects of the ceremony are to be omitted (for example verses mentioning "higher birth" are replaced with the vaishnava's destination of Vaikuntha).

 

For Vaishnava's, the shraddha ceremony is performed for fulfilling our duty (an offering to Lord Vishnu and the departed devotee), not to guarantee a higher destination for the devotee. It is also not necessary to perform the ceremony yearly, as the Vaishnava is already in Vaikuntha.

 

Great devotees (and incarnations) such as Advaita Acharya and Srivas Pandit have also performed Shraddha for their departed fathers. Vaishnavas accept the practices of the Vedas because their performance is itself purifying and beneficial to all those involved. The shraddha ceremony helps us to remember the Lord's devotees, worship the Lord, feed the devotees and brahmanas, and engage our selves in hari-nama. Thus according to Ramanuja such practices should never be given up.

 

Vaishnava's see the karmakandiya rituals and extract the essential devotional aspects from them for the benefit of society. Srila Prabhupada states, "The purpose of the shraddha ceremony is to please the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Vishnu, so that after pleasing Him one may offer prasada to one’s forefathers and in this way make them happy." Materialists may perform this ceremony for material gains, but devotees do this with the ultimate purpose of pleasing Vishnu and the Vaishnavas.

 

The fact that an activity is not necessary does not mean that the activity is not performed. The shraddha ceremony is not necessary for a departed Vaishnava, but still Vaishnavas perform the shraddha ceremony because it is auspicious and engages everyone in the service of the Lord and his devotees.

 

If you study the various branches of Vaishnavism, you will find that virtually all schools perform the shraddha ceremony.

 

[Kulapavana]

As far as I know there was no "gay" problem in our movement until they (GALVA) started it. Over the years there were plenty of homosexuals in our movement, often in very high positions. GALVAS claims of "mistreatment" of gay members are bogus or greatly exagerrated at best. There is no doubt in my mind that their agenda has nothing to do with what is best for our Movement. If you are fallen just be humble and serve Krishna, dont try to invent some theory to justify your fallen state!!!

[Guest guest]

***Homosexuality with Vaishnava theology is a direct offense to Srila Prabhupada

 

Yes Prabhu. They may go in temple, but no sanction on gomosex.

[Kulapavana]

Source: University Of California Los Angeles

 

2003-10-22

 

Brain May 'Hard-Wire' Sexuality Before Birth

 

Refuting 30 years of scientific theory that solely credits hormones for brain development, UCLA scientists have identified 54 genes that may explain the different organization of male and female brains. Published in the October edition of the journal Molecular Brain Research, the UCLA discovery suggests that sexual identity is hard-wired into the brain before birth and may offer physicians a tool for gender assignment of babies born with ambiguous genitalia.

 

“Our findings may help answer an important question — why do we feel male or female?” said Dr. Eric Vilain, assistant professor of human genetics and urology at the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA and a pediatrician at UCLA’s Mattel Children’s Hospital. “Sexual identity is rooted in every person’s biology before birth and springs from a variation in our individual genome.”

 

Since the 1970s, scientists have believed that estrogen and testosterone were wholly responsible for sexually organizing the brain. In other words, a fetal brain simply needed to produce more testosterone to become male. Recent evidence, however, indicates that hormones cannot explain everything about the sexual differences between male and female brains.

 

Vilain and his colleagues explored whether genetic influences could explain the variations between male and female brains. Using two genetic testing methods, they compared the production of genes in male and female brains in embryonic mice — long before the animals developed sex organs.

 

To their surprise, the researchers found 54 genes produced in different amounts in male and female mouse brains, prior to hormonal influence. Eighteen of the genes were produced at higher levels in the male brains; 36 were produced at higher levels in the female brains.

 

“We didn’t expect to find genetic differences between the sexes’ brains,” Vilain said. “But we discovered that the male and female brains differed in many measurable ways, including anatomy and function.”

 

In one intriguing example, the two hemispheres of the brain appeared more symmetrical in females than in males. According to Vilain, the symmetry may improve communication between both sides of the brain, leading to enhanced verbal expressiveness in females. “This anatomical difference may explain why women can sometimes articulate their feelings more easily than men,” he said.

 

Overall, the UCLA team’s findings counter the theory that only hormones are responsible for organizing the brain.

 

“Our research implies that genes account for some of the differences between male and female brains,” Vilain said. “We believe that one’s genes, hormones and environment exert a combined influence on sexual brain development.”

 

The scientists will pursue further studies to distinguish specific roles in the brain’s sexual maturation for each of the 54 different genes they identified. What their research reveals may provide insight into how the brain determines gender identity.

 

“Our findings may explain why we feel male or female, regardless of our actual anatomy,” Vilain said. “These discoveries lend credence to the idea that being transgender — feeling that one has been born into the body of the wrong sex — is a state of mind.

 

“From previous studies, we know that transgender persons possess normal hormonal levels,” he said. “Their gender identity likely will be explained by some of the genes we discovered.”

 

Vilain’s findings on the brain’s sex genes may also ease the plight of parents of intersex infants, and help their physicians to assign gender with greater accuracy. Mild cases of malformed genitalia occur in 1 percent of all births — about 3 million cases. More severe cases — where doctors can’t inform parents whether they had a boy or girl — occur in one in 3,000 births.

 

“If physicians could predict the gender of newborns with ambiguous genitalia at birth, we would make less mistakes in gender assignment,” Vilain said.

 

Lastly, Vilain proposes that the UCLA findings may help to explain the origin of homosexuality.

 

“It’s quite possible that sexual identity and physical attraction is ‘hard-wired’ by the brain,” he said. “If we accept this concept, we must dismiss the myth that homosexuality is a ‘choice’ and examine our civil legal system accordingly.”

 

The UCLA study was supported by the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development, the National Science Foundation and with start-up funds from the UCLA Department of Urology. Vilain’s co-authors included Phoebe Dewing, Steve Horvath and Tao Shi, all of UCLA.

 

 

[theist]

 

“It’s quite possible that sexual identity and physical attraction is ‘hard-wired’ by the brain,” he said. “If we accept this concept, we must dismiss the myth that homosexuality is a ‘choice’ and examine our civil legal system accordingly.”

 

 

 

The problem with this approach is that they are working from the gross to the subtle while matter actually manifests from the subtle to the gross. So along the way they will make numerous wrong headed conclusions along the way.

 

As long as the mind/brain relationship remains misunderstood by thinking mind is an outcome of brain activity instead of the otherway around researchers will forever get things backward.

 

We need devotees with strong scientific and metaphysic understandings to help us understand the connection between mind and how the grosser world of genes(and all that other tiny stuff) interacts.

 

It is not enough to say that it does interact, we need to show how.

 

Hare Krsna

 

Ok I just got logged off. But now I can't delete the one below. Oh well.

[Guest guest]

I wanted to go back and edit some words but was not allowed to by a glitch in the system. So don't get on me Babhru, I tried. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[stonehearted]

Hey! Where's my damned red pencil? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

(Looks as though I should have used it more on my own stuff.)

[theist]

I made the switch already. Just in time it looks like. lol

[Guest guest]

simple--------WE ARE NOT THESE SEX MACHINES-----

 

hope that helps prabhus !!!!!!!