Meeting with Bhati Caru Swami & Bhatimarga swami

[Guest guest]

Toronto Meeting

Srila Prabhupada the Founder Acarya

 

For those who are familiar with the history of ISKCON, it is clear that fragmentation of the movement began with the implementation of an unauthorized initiation system soon after the passing of the founder/acarya, His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada was always concerned with the future safety and well-being of ISKCON, the institution he founded. He therefore gave his disciples specific instructions intended to protect the society from the emergence of factions and other deviations from the Vedic standard. Included in those instructions was a recommendation to have initiations performed by "officiating acaryas".  At the end of May, 1977 Srila Prabhupada summoned the entire GBC body to Vrndavana where he was lying ill, thinking that his last days might be near. He wanted them to make final inquiries about the management of ISKCON. It was decided that a committee of six GBC men (those who were members of the original GBC body selected by Srila Prabhupada in 1970) would ask questions on behalf of the entire group. In the course of this discussion, which took place on May 28th, 1977, Satsvarupa Maharaja asked Srila Prabhupada to explain how initiations were to be handled in the future.

Satsvarupa Maharaja: Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiations would be conducted. Srila Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you, after this is settled up. I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya.  (excerpt from the May 28th conversation)Some time after Srila Prabhupada's departure from this world on November 14th, 1977, the GBC instituted a zonal acarya system, ignoring Srila Prabhupada's recommendation that they act as officiating acaryas. The "new" gurus considered themselves successors to Srila Prabhupada and claimed the assets of ISKCON as their own property. They also thought of those they initiated as their property. This ill-conceived system of proprietorship by acaryaship was watered down by a series of adjustments over the years, but the misconception has not been fully eradicated, nor has faith in Srila Prabhupada as the great acarya and deliverer of his followers been placed squarely in the center of the lives of ISKCON devotees.  

A very significant meeting of senior disciples of Srila Prabhupada took place on Sunday, July 20th, 2003 on Center Island in Toronto during Lord Jagannatha's Rathayatra festival. The discussion was led by two GBC sannyasis, His Holiness Bhakti Caru Swami and His Holiness Bhaktimarga Swami. Also present were Krsnadasa Kaviraja dasa, Locanananda dasa, Pragosh dasa, Vyapaka dasa, Laksminath dasa, Jnanagamya dasa, Madhuha dasa, Ekanatha dasa, Gaurasundara dasa, Trisakti dasi and Sarada dasi. The purpose of the exchange was to see if a solution to the difficulties plaguing ISKCON for more than two decades could be found. To that end, the group issued the following statement at the conclusion of the meeting:

1) ISKCON has a major problem that has resulted in the fragmentation of Srila Prabhupada's movement. 

2) We must return to Srila Prabhupada's instructions regarding initiations. It was proposed and approved that initiations ought to be performed by devotees acting as officiating acaryas. All are invited to listen to a recording of the Center Island meeting and post some comments. Please look on the left side of this page for details. It is our hope that we can muster support for the officiating acarya initiation system Srila Prabhupada himself recommended but which has been ignored for more than twenty-five years.

 

If you are a follower of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada, you are welcome to send a short comment (50 words) to the postmaster.

Shortly, those comments will be posted on the WEB.

Thank you for your kind participation.

 

 

The Web address is : http://www.prabhupadavani.org/Founder_Acarya/Toronto_Meeting.html

[gHari]

Here is where Srila Prabhupada clearly defeats the fantasies of the ritvik concept. I wish I had proceeded to the Island to tell Bhaktimarga Swami just how they were being cheated by these manipulators. If they cannot get past this conversation, then there is not another word to be said.

 

Plain as day; post-samadhi ritvik was never the topic:<blockquote>PrabhupAda: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating AcAryas.

 

TamAla KRSNa: Is that called Rtvik-AcArya?

 

PrabhupAda: Rtvik, yes.

 

SatsvarUpa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and the...

 

PrabhupAda: He's guru. He's guru.

 

SatsvarUpa: But he does it on your behalf.

 

PrabhupAda: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order... AmAra AjJAya guru haJA. Be actually guru, but by my order.

 

SatsvarUpa: So they may also be considered your disciples.

 

PrabhupAda: Yes, they are disciples. Why consider? Who?

 

TamAla KRSNa: No, he's asking that these Rtvik-AcAryas, they're officiating, giving dIkSA. Their... The people who they give dIkSA to, whose disciple are they?

 

PrabhupAda: They're his disciple, who is initiating. He is granddisciple.

 

TamAla KRSNa: They're his disciple.

 

SatsvarUpa: Yes.

 

TamAla KRSNa: That's clear.

 

SatsvarUpa: Then we have a question concer...

 

PrabhupAda: When I order, "You become guru," he becomes regular guru. That's all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That's it.</blockquote>

 

gHari

[Guest guest]

 

Plain as day; post-samadhi ritvik was never the topic

 

 

Why is it that they cannot see that this is in fact the greatest danger to one's spiritual life?

 

Is it that they value more the smooth running of the Iskcon institution that rtvik initiations purportedly claim will happen over the spiritual needs of the aspiring sadhaka ?

 

Plain as day; post-samadhi ritvik was never the topic

[Nimai]

The book, Srila Prabhupada: The Prominent Link by Dhira Govinda prabhu explains that disciples of disciples of Srila Prabhupada are Srila Prabhupada's grand disciples. It also explains that when a grand disciple takes initiation, they should serve their initiating gurus faithfully. These initiating gurus are initiating on their own behalf, not on behalf of Srila Prabhupada.

But, it also states that given the sad history of initiating gurus in ISKCON, there are some grand disciples that would rather consider Srila Prabhupada as their main guru, since Srila Prabhupada is the one person who is given them the most transcendental knowledge. In the transcendental sense of the word (going to the very essence of the word), transcendental knowledge is what links one to the parampara.

The initiating gurus are of course linking their disciples to the parampara. Still, in the transendental sense, so is Srila Prabhupada. So, in that sense Srila Prabhupada is the main link and also their guru.

In the formal sense, the initiating gurus are the diksa gurus and they should be serve nicely. Nevertheless, some grand disciples would prefer to make things more simple and just have Srila Prabhupada's picture in their altars and offer him their bhoga and their pranam mantras and such worship him alone. No one should dictate who one should love the most and serve more faithfully. That right is in the hands of the devotee only.

So, for the sake of unity in the movement, ISKCON should make room for grand disciples who consider their gurus their diksa gurus and serve them to the best of their ability, but who prefer to just worship Srila Prabhupada because they consider him their main guru. This has been done in the past. As our Siksa successive disciple line can attest.

Not casting aside philosophical principles, we should also face what is practical and what is really happening in the movement. Are we going to fight like cats and dogs putting forth our "philosophy"? Or are we ready to do needful to save the movement from extinsion.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

"Nevertheless, some grand disciples would prefer to make things more simple and just have Srila Prabhupada's picture in their altars and offer him their bhoga and their pranam mantras and such worship him alone."

 

this is a deviation and it is due to have choosen a diksa / siksa guru without conviction, or it is due to have no more faith in their spiritual master for subjective or objective reasons

 

and this has to be resolved, it is not a sign of variety in devotional service.. anyway there's no harm on loving srila prabhupada, but this"jumping over" is a immense problem and there's a big danger that it will ruin iskcon

[theist]

 

and this has to be resolved, it is not a sign of variety in devotional service.. anyway there's no harm on loving srila prabhupada, but this"jumping over" is a immense problem and there's a big danger that it will ruin iskcon

 

 

Jumping over? Please explain that phrase further. Is the disciplic succession a succession of bodies that jumping over is some kind of chronlogical consideration or something?

 

Do to the stature of Srila Prabhupada in relation to Bhaktisiddhanta I can surely see where trying to consider Bhaktisiddhanta as one's guru might not be proper, but I don't see that same relationship with present Iskcon gurus to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Are the present Iskcon gurus so much in line that it would considered jumping over?

 

Another point is after Prabhupada wrote so many books and gave so many recorded lectures etc. is the May 28th conversation all the riviks can come up with?

 

And that conv. is in serious question as to its sanction of post samadhi ritvik.

 

It's all confusing in many ways. But then I'm in the "follow your faith camp" so its hard to accept either the ritvik or appointed/voted in/GBC rules over the self-realized acarya camps.

 

The essential thing is that Supersoul is the one to inspire your faith, not social pressure or some dry formula on how the sucession is to proceed.

[gHari]

The webpage references the May 28th conversation, trying to gain some justification, but only a fool will see this as proof of a post-samadhi officiating guru scheme. Better that they were honest like you, Nimai. That is, I assume you are all on the same page. Don't cheat me, boys, at any point. Prabhupada never cheated me, ever. And I won't buy it unless it is cent percent Prabhupada.

 

I must admit that after thirty years this old dog would find it hard to give anyone higher prominence in my life than Srila Prabhupada. That is likely impossible, but time will tell.

 

I have no difficulty in giving anyone in the position of ISKCON guru absolute respect. It is only fitting: to properly acknowledge and nurture the intimate feelings in the hearts of his disciples, as well as to recognize each guru's demanding and very important honourable service to his master and the parampara. This is the system Srila Prabhupada arranged for me; I have read enough to know that.

 

gHari

[Guest guest]

"Are the present Iskcon gurus so much in line that it would considered jumping over?"

 

if you do consider a devotee not to be in line, this is not fault of the Gaudya Vaishnava Sampradaya guru-disciple system

 

if we have difficulties there's no way to avoid them concocting a new way to do the things (post samadhi initiation or "do it yourself")

 

the right way to be a prabhupada disciple is to do what he has stated in his books:

 

tad viddhi pranipatena

pariprasnena sevaya

upadeksyanti te jnanam

jnaninas tatt va-darsinah

 

Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth.

 

 

and these are the features of the above spiritual master.... we have the right to obtain teh shelter of a devotee like that, nothing more, nothing less:

 

http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0173/_P4.HTM

 

these are instructions by srila prabhupada and parampara

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[theist]

Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. Theself-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth.

 

[stonehearted]

theist, what is it you wonder? This is one of the changes that can be supported both by transcripts of Srila Prabhupada's earlier dictation and the grammar. The word in question is tattva-darsinah, which is plural of tattva-darsin. This is a change conspiracy theorists have gone nuts with, but it's one of the minority of changes that can be easily supported.

 

Babhru

[theist]

No not that. Since its the self-realized souls who impart knowledge would it be jumping over if the person one is accused of jumping over is not yet himself established on the self-realized platform?

[stonehearted]

theist: No not that. Since its the self-realized souls who impart knowledge would it be jumping over if the person one is accused of jumping over is not yet himself established on the self-realized platform?

 

Ah, of course! Very good question! Any discussion, class?

 

A couple of preliminary considerations may be that if someone is not fully self realized but is humble enough to be a genuinely transparent medium, there may be no question of jumping (he sure wouldn't object, I think). Another is that we should be very careful about establishing such relationships as guru and disciple. In his purport to Sri Isopanishad, mantra 10 Srila Prabhupada cautions that "the perfect disciple must be like Arjuna, and the spiritual master must be as good as the Lord Himself. This is the process of learning vidya (knowledge) from the dhira (the undisturbed)." So you've raised a rich topic of discussion.

 

Class?

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

prabhu... you are thinking that i want to give to you a not realized "pseudo guru" for the sake of respecting "externally" the precepts of the acharyas

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

that is not my aim... i have posted a link to the guruvastakam, so what is a guru for me is clear

 

discussions are to be made at little steps... now let us state how it is important to follow a present guru, asking quaestions and receiving answers, developing humility etc.

 

then we will talk about who is a guru

 

if we have a bogus master, there's no question of jumping... we were jumping over nothing

 

(of course books are better than BOGUS!!)

[theist]

 

 

 

>>prabhu... you are thinking that i want to give to you a not realized "pseudo guru" for the sake of respecting "externally" the precepts of the acharyas<<

 

Just raising the question for discussion really.

 

>>that is not my aim... i have posted a link to the guruvastakam, so what is a guru for me is clear<<

 

Yes but everyone will consider that describes his guru.

 

>>discussions are to be made at little steps... now let us state how it is important to follow a present guru, asking quaestions and receiving answers, developing humility etc.<<

 

Little steps...yes I agree. By present guru this has already been discussed. I view Prabhupada as still present. I have said before Supersoul hears the questions and leads one to the answers. Also I find answers to questions I was not intelligent enough to ask just by reading Prabhupada's books. That is where Supersoul has lead me. My problem is a reluctance to drink fully.

 

Now Supersoul may have lead you to a guru presently in a body. That is between you and God and guru.

 

>>then we will talk about who is a guru<<

 

Actually I'll skip this one.

 

>>if we have a bogus master, there's no question of jumping... we were jumping over nothing<<

 

Well not nothing. Just because one is not fully stablized on the spiritual platform does mean heis nothing. He still may be very close and a genuine guru who is helping many.

 

>>(of course books are better than BOGUS!!) <<

 

Yes

[Guest guest]

"Yes but everyone will consider that describes his guru"

 

spiritual science is not by sentiment... a guru is good if shastra and sadhu confirm that he's good

 

"I have said before Supersoul hears the questions and leads one to the answers."

 

bin laden thinks that he's following supersoul... the same said bush to the pope "Lord in my heart is saying to me to do the war..."

 

if we are not fully realizad is very difficult to communicate with supersoul, also uttama adhikaris and god himself take a present guru

[Guest guest]

Dear guest, you must be a guru. Why else would you object that granddisciples respect, love and serve their initiating gurus, but who out of humility (the gurus) defer their worship to Srila Prabhupada. By the way, the Prominent Link book is not saying that "all" granddisciples should worhip only Srila Prabhupada. It is saying that it is OK to worship your initiating guru, of course, no doubt about it! But some granddisciples would rather worhip Srila Prabhupada as their main guru, and they should be allowed to do so by the ISKCON organization. I mean, in our Sampradaya there were so many wonderful and advanced devotees who were not worshiped, that did not diminished their status. They were who they were whether they were worshipped or not. Being worshipped does not make you an advance devotee.

The point is that if granddisciples would rather worship Srila Prabhupa, they should not be force not to. Isn't Srila Prabhupada qualified to be worshipped?. Isn't it time to raise the white flag in this guru-tattva issue and do what is right for Srila Prabhupada's movement? Let's stop the fighting!

What do you mean by "jumping over?" The Prominent Link book is not saying that Srila Prabhupada is the last link or that the initiating guru is not the link. Nor is it saying that the worshipping Srila Prabhupada by his granddisciples can be equated to the worship Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati by Srila Prabhupada's disciples. There are two totally different things. Srila Prabhupada's disciples (and granddisciples) cannot directly worship Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati because all their knowledge of him comes from Srila Prabhupada. We couldn't have known about Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati without Srila Prabhupada. So, it was Srila Prabhupada who linked us to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati.That is why worshiping Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati would be "jumping over."

Meanwhile for granddisciples to worship Srila Prabhupada it is not "jumping over." Why? Because granddisciples naturally have a direct personal relationship with Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada is giving them transcendental knowledge. These granddisciples would have never heard of Sri Krsna if it wasn't for Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada gave them this knowledge and he is continually giving them this transcendental knowlege through his books. So, Srila Prabhupada gave these granddisciples the knowlege of Sri Krsna. Srila Prabhupada linked them with Sri Krsna in this way. Through transcendental knowledge. That is why to worship Srila Prabhupada is not "jumping over."

Everyone who gives us transcendental knowledge is linking us to the parampara. This is the meaning of "link" that the Prominent Link book is talking about. Link in the sense of giving knowledge (it is the GBC who muddle the true meaning of the Prominent Link book). Now, who is the Prominent link? Let's not all raise our hands at the same time.

 

 

[Nimai]

Sorry, it was me who wrote the "No, not jumping over." I forgot to sign in.

[Guest guest]

"Isn't Srila Prabhupada qualified to be worshipped?"

 

yes he is to be worshipped respecting what he has said in the books and for the example he has given :"tad viddhi pranipatena..." all prabhupada's instructions are good minus that?

 

"But some granddisciples would rather worhip Srila Prabhupada as their main guru"

 

guru means questions and answers, revealing doubts, have these doubts solve, be chastized, and so on... if you can communicate in this way with prabhupada he's your guru...... if not.....

 

"Srila Prabhupada gave them this knowledge and he is continually giving them this transcendental knowlege through his books"

 

yes books...... guru, shastra, sadhu... master, books, tradition... why mix?

 

"Everyone who gives us transcendental knowledge is linking us to the parampara."

 

so link with that parampara!! if you think that your spiritual master does not link you with prabhupada what is the use to be his diciple?

 

"Now, who is the Prominent link? Let's not all raise our hands at the same time."

 

the prominent link is srila prabhupada... linking to him is done following his instructions about guru tattva

 

if one really loves and respect his guru, and this guru is pure and authentic... he does not feel the need to do all these speculations

 

guru is guru

 

books is books

 

previous acharyas are previous acharyas

 

one cannot chose a weak guru simply to stick in an organization, have a name and then put him apart and beeing a prabhupada disciple... this is "post samadhi deviation" exactly like the "official" one

 

i understand that in these days the faith in guru tattva is near zero, i would be amazed if not... but arranging rules and philosophy will not help us

 

let us pretend and seek for pure spiritual masters... iskcon or not iskcon

[Nimai]

Dear guest,

 

Unfortunately I am going away for a few days and won't be able to follow this topic. But, with all due respects, I cannot make heads or tails of your post. Can you repeat your main points for simple people like myself (and others that are not so simple)? And please, try to stay on topic (I believe you did that, but I am not so sure).

 

[Guest guest]

ok

 

master (guru) is a person who accepts questions, gives answers and when there's the need, chasizes... to recognise a master we have to learn what a master is from books and tradition

 

book (shastra) is where we can read general principles but it can be somewhat difficult to apply them in time, place and circumstance... so we need a master to do this

 

tradition (sadhu) supports the right interpretation of the scriptures and gives the example of what a master has to be

 

one or two only is not enough

[theist]

 

 

"I have said before Supersoul hears the questions and leads one to the answers."

 

bin laden thinks that he's following supersoul... the same said bush to the pope "Lord in my heart is saying to me to do the war..."

 

if we are not fully realizad is very difficult to communicate with supersoul, also uttama adhikaris and god himself take a present guru

 

 

So Supersoul is also in charge of people misinterpreting Him, fulfilling some inner desire of their's.

 

Even if you understand a mundane math equation that is given by the Lord in the heart.

 

He is everywhere and a factor in every action. The spiritualist understands, this the nondevotees don't.

 

Do you think you have even one true spiritual insight that wasn't given to you by Supersoul?

 

We can't even take our next breath but by the grace of Supersoul, what to speak of recognize His true representative.

 

And just how do you think you recognize guru as guru? By your own analysis performed with your sharp intellect? By luck? By some group of conditioned souls pointing him out?

 

In the same breath you say your spiritual master is a representative of Supersoul and then say you can't hear Supersoul you can only hear His external representative. Don't you see a contradiction there?

 

While reading your guru's books you are taking shelter of guru in the original verse, guru in the commentary, and you couldn't understand a word of it without the grace of Guru in the heart.

 

Even if you are in the same room *hearing* your guru speak I have to question if you are really hearing if you still see him apart from Caitya-guru.

 

That's why I recently started a thread called *have* a guru, to explore this point.

 

So many people gather around the bona fide acarya and even accept some formal initiation from him, but I suspect a lessor number actually are hearing him or having him as guru in the deeper sense.

[theist]

Thanks for your post on Prominient Link. I am now inspired to get a copy and study it. I sense there is much there I may learn from.

 

Thanks

[Guest guest]

very nice prabhu... so "have" a guru and "have" a supersoul...

 

what is the problem?

 

you do have doubts about the need of a present spiritual master , i have not doubts about the role of supersoul

 

" spiritual master is a representative of Supersoul " yes, we have to pray krsna to send us this exalted person, and we can do some examination with the help of shastra and sadhu

 

maybe it is my case, but i cannot live only by sentiments.... in my mind i do not find only messages sended by krsna, there's also maya who is doing a good job

 

so, for me, listening to my heart is not enough

[theist]

apparently I have been totally unable to get my ideas across to you, as evident by this statement of yours:

 

 

you do have doubts about the need of a present spiritual master , i have not doubts about the role of supersoul

 

 

[theist]

TRANSLATION BHAGAVAD-GITA 10.11

To show them special mercy, I, dwelling in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance.

 

PURPORT

When Lord Caitanya was in Benares promulgating the chanting of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Räma, Hare Räma, Räma Räma, Hare Hare, thousands of people were following Him. Prakäsänanda Sarasvati, a very influential and learned scholar in Benares at that time, derided Lord Caitanya for being a sentimentalist. Sometimes philosophers criticize the devotees because they think that most of the devotees are in the darkness of ignorance and are philosophically naive sentimentalists. Actually that is not the fact. There are very, very learned scholars who have put forward the philosophy of devotion. But even if a devotee does not take advantage of their literatures or of his spiritual master, if he is sincere in his devotional service he is helped by Krsna Himself within his heart. So the sincere devotee engaged in Krsna consciousness cannot be without knowledge. The only qualification is that one carry out devotional service in full Krsna consciousness.

 

The modern philosophers think that without discriminating one cannot have pure knowledge. For them this answer is given by the Supreme Lord: those who are engaged in pure devotional service, even though they be without sufficient education and even without sufficient knowledge of the Vedic principles, are still helped by the Supreme God, as stated in this verse.

 

The Lord tells Arjuna that basically there is no possibility of understanding the Supreme Truth, the Absolute Truth, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, simply by speculating, for the Supreme Truth is so great that it is not possible to understand Him or to achieve Him simply by making a mental effort. Man can go on speculating for several millions of years, and if he is not devoted, if he is not a lover of the Supreme Truth, he will never understand Krsna, or the Supreme Truth. Only by devotional service is the Supreme Truth, Krsna, pleased, and by His inconceivable energy He can reveal Himself to the heart of the pure devotee. The pure devotee always has Krsna within his heart; and with the presence of Krsna, who is just like the sun, the darkness of ignorance is at once dissipated. This is the special mercy rendered to the pure devotee by Krsna.

 

Due to the contamination of material association, through many, many millions of births, one’s heart is always covered with the dust of materialism, but when one engages in devotional service and constantly chants Hare Krsna, the dust quickly clears, and one is elevated to the platform of pure knowledge. The ultimate goal, Vishnu, can be attained only by this chant and by devotional service, and not by mental speculation or argument. The pure devotee does not have to worry about the material necessities of life; he need not be anxious, because when he removes the darkness from his heart, everything is provided automatically by the Supreme Lord, who is pleased by the loving devotional service of the devotee. This is the essence of the teachings of Bhagavad-gitä. By studying Bhagavad-gitä, one can become a soul completely surrendered to the Supreme Lord and engage himself in pure devotional service. As the Lord takes charge, one becomes completely free from all kinds of materialistic endeavors.