Meeting with Bhati Caru Swami & Bhatimarga swami

[livingentity]

 

The second coming will not be politically inspired. When the politics and egos die, then there will just be Krsna. Krsna Caitanya. Then we'll all be on the same page.

 

 

I hope I will be invited! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[stonehearted]

LE: is it worth my time or is it just a waste?

 

I don't honestly know. It was an hour and a half, or something like that. I didn't learn anything new about the "issue" or the parties involved. Since time is short for me, I felt a little resentment at the time spent listening.

[Guest guest]

Negativity seems to be a popular commodity around this thread. We know that there are those that would not like to see ISKCON succeed. They have their motives and they are not benevolent.

[stonehearted]

Guest: Negativity seems to be a popular commodity around this thread. We know that there are those that would not like to see ISKCON succeed. They have their motives and they are not benevolent.

 

Boy, what a strange post. Could you be more specific, or do you expect us you be content with (and impressed by) vague innuendo?

 

In over 34 years of associating with devotees, I have yet to meet one who wants ISKCON to fail. Besides, its success is a fait accompli. All we can do is tune it for further and broader success.

[livingentity]

 

Since time is short for me, I felt a little resentment at the time spent listening.

 

 

From the little I have read about the meeting it sounds like a lot of redundancy and just going over old issues with no closure at all.

 

I waste my time well enough as it is and will probably skip this one.

[livingentity]

Explain please.

[theist]

I won't waste my time either after hearing the review, Too little time left.

 

The answer is not in how to arrange or rearrange an organization.

 

The fact is our continued bewilderment over this issue is because we don't want to love Krsna. We don't want to really please His devotee. We want to play religion instead.

 

If we were sincere Krsna would not leave us bewildered. If we really wanted to be filled with inspiration Krsna would surely grant it.

 

The vast majority of us are perfectly willing to play preacher, to play renunciate, to play at being enlightened but few really surrender their heart.

 

Afraid to love Krsna, but trapped by a little intelligence that won't let us just chuck it all out the window and return to full fledge hedonism,("party hearty for tommorrow we die") we become stuck on some subtle level of the words and concepts that surround reality, i.e. religion.

 

"Surrender to Krsna?let's have a meeting instead"

 

"Out of many thoudsands....hardly one knows Me in truth."

 

Sorry to sound so negative but its just one man's viewpoint.

[Guest guest]

 

Quote:

----------

 

 

The fact is our continued bewilderment over this issue is because we don't want to love Krsna. We don't want to really please His devotee. We want to play religion instead.

 

If we were sincere Krsna would not leave us bewildered. If we really wanted to be filled with inspiration Krsna would surely grant it.

 

The vast majority of us are perfectly willing to play preacher, to play renunciate, to play at being enlightened but few really surrender their heart.

 

Afraid to love Krsna, but trapped by a little intelligence that won't let us just chuck it all out the window and return to full fledge hedonism,("party hearty for tommorrow we die") we become stuck on some subtle level of the words and concepts that surround reality, i.e. religion.

 

"Surrender to Krsna?let's have a meeting instead"

 

"Out of many thoudsands....hardly one knows Me in truth."

______________

 

I agree, Sriman Mahaprabhu wants to see real Vaisnava humility

no more false egos

no more politics

only pure unalloyed surrender to the Holy Name

and to the pure devotee.

 

----- gopaldas

[livingentity]

but honest and to the point. It might be painful to read but it is much needed. We need these wakeup calls.

[stonehearted]

Well said!

 

theist: The fact is our continued bewilderment over this issue is because we don't want to love Krsna. We don't want to really please His devotee. We want to play religion instead.

 

You may be right on the money here.

 

t: "Surrender to Krsna?let's have a meeting instead"

 

B: Perhaps you're aware of the pillars of leadership--eating, sleeping, meeting, and defending. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[livingentity]

 

B: Perhaps you're aware of the pillars of leadership--eating, sleeping, /images/graemlins/grin.gifmeeting, /images/graemlins/grin.gif and defending.

 

 

[Guest guest]

The above assertion is commonly made as a further reason why the so-called 'ritvik' idea possibly cannot be true. We will examine if the concept of the 'physically present' guru has any support from the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. If it does not then it can be safely discarded.

 

A search through the whole cannon of Srila Prabhupada's teachings does not reveal any support for the idea that there must be a 'physically' present spiritual master.

 

(Though the teachings do emphasise that the guru must be PHYSICAL -i.e. one cannot just follow the Supersoul in the heart, but must accept the external embodied representation of Krishna, who is the spiritual master. However this is not what is under debate here, since no one is arguing that the spiritual master must not come in a physical form. The issue is can one continue to follow him once he has physically departed?)

 

As well as NOT SUPPORTING the idea of a 'living guru', the ONLY time that Srila Prabhupada even discusses this term is to CONDEMN it:

 

Madhudvisa:

Is there any way for a Christian to, without the help of a Spiritual Master, to reach the spiritual sky through believing the words of Jesus Christ and trying to follow his teachings?

Srila Prabhupada:

I don't follow.

Tamal Krsna Goswami:

Can a Christian in this age, without a Spiritual Master, but by reading the Bible, and following Jesus's words, reach the...

Srila Prabhupada:

When you read the Bible, you follow Spiritual Master. How can you say without? As soon as you read the Bible, that means you are following the instruction of Lord Jesus Christ, that means that you are following Spiritual Master. So where is the opportunity of being without Spiritual Master?

Madhudvisa:

I was referring to a living Spiritual Master.

Srila Prabhupada:

Spiritual Master is not question of...Spiritual Master is eternal. Spiritual Master is eternal...So your question is 'without Spiritual Master'. Without Spiritual Master you cannot be at any stage of your life. You may accept this Spiritual Master or that Spiritual Master. That is a different thing. But you have to accept. As you say that "by reading Bible", when you read Bible that means you are following the Spiritual Master represented by some priest or some clergyman in the line of Lord Jesus Christ.

(SP Morning walk, 2/10/68, Seattle)

 

So why then if there is no support from Srila Prabhupada for this idea of a 'physically' present guru, is the idea so persistent within our society? A lot has to do with the idea of the traditional guru that one would serve personally and be engaged by. In fact Srila Prabhupada does mention in his books about how the guru engages the disciple, how the disciple serves the guru, etc. Thus though there may not be any DIRECT evidence to support the 'living' guru idea. It is asserted that the concept is continually implied. In that guru-disciple relationships are obviously described within the context of the guru being in physical contact with the disciple. In other words the very nature of the guru-disciple relationship necessitates that the guru is physically present even though it may not be explicitly stated as such in the books. For instance the most basic and famous verse on this subject is Bhagavad Gita 4:34

 

"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realised soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth."

 

This verse is used again and again as proof that the guru must be physically present, otherwise how can one 'approach' him, 'inquire' from him, and 'render service' unto him?

 

Though this sounds reasonable, the reason why this conclusion is incorrect is that in all these instances, the quotes speak of the DISCIPLE engaging in these activities. Which would mean that if a physically present spiritual master WAS necessary for a DISCIPLE, then the disciple would need to get 're-initiated' each time the guru left his body. This idea of course is absurd, and is repeatedly condemned by Srila Prabhupada:

 

"So we should associate by vibration, and not by the physical presence. That is real association."

(Lectures SB, 68/08/18)

 

"There are two conceptions, the physical conception and the vibrational conception. The physical conception is temporary. The vibrational conception is eternal.[...] When we feel separation from Krsna or the Spirirual Master, we should just try to remember their words or instructions, and we will no longer feel that separation. Such association with Krsna and the Spiritual Master should be association by vibration not physical presence. That is real association. "

(Elevation to Krsna Consciousness, (BBT 1973), Page 57)

 

"Although according to material vision His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarsavati Thakura Prabhupada passed away from this material world on the last day of December 1936, I still consider his Divine Grace to be always present with me by his vani, his words. There are two ways of association - by vani and by vapuh. Vani means words and vapuh means physical presence. Physical presence is sometimes appreciable and sometimes not, but Vani continues to exist eternally. Therefore, one must take advantage of the Vani, not the physical presence."

(CC, Antya 5 Conclusion)

 

Etc., Etc., Please see the many quotes to this effect at the back of the Final Order.

 

Also Srila Prabhupada's own example taught that this physical connection with the guru was not necessary:

 

So far as personal association with Guru is concerned, I was only with Guru Maharaj 4 or 5 times, but I have never left his association, not even for a moment. Because I am following his instruction, I have never felt any separation. There are some of my Godbrothers here in India, who had constant personal association with Guru Maharaja, but who are neglecting his orders. This is just like the bug who is sitting on the lap of the king. He may be very puffed up by his position but all he can succeed in doing is biting the king. Personal association is not so important as association through serving.

(Letter to Satyadhana, 20/2/72)

 

Thus as regards the need for physical contact between the Guru and disciple:

 

This concept is not supported by the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Indeed the very OPPOSITE is taught by Srila Prabhupada.

 

It would necessitate having to 'find' a new guru each time the guru left his body.

 

We can further see the absurdity of this idea when the VERY people who are pushing the point that you MUST have a 'living' guru and therefore you must take initiation from them. Do not THEMSELVES have a 'living guru' nor have they had one for 21 years and in some cases even before that had little physical connection with their guru.

 

Thus it has to be conceded that the disciple does not need a 'physical' relationship with the guru. This then leads us to the final objection which can be leveled, which is that though this acceptance of the 'vani' may suffice ONCE the devotee has become initiated, PRE-initiation there has to be PHYSICAL interaction. The problem with this 'selective' argument is that there is no mention in Srila Prabhupada's teachings that 'pre-initiation' activities necessitate 'physical' interaction, but that 'post-initiation' activities don't. This argument becomes even more absurd when one considers that the usual reasons that are given for the need for a 'physical' guru - the need to be specifically engaged. The need to render personal service, the need for specific guidance in one's devotional life, the need to be chastised etc., become MORE relevant ONCE one is initiated.

 

This then leaves us with the only possible argument that can be used to justify 'physical interaction' PRE-initiation - the need for pariksa or mutual testing between the guru and disciple. However Srila Prabhupada did not teach that this has to be done personally nor did he practice this. On the contrary, almost immediately after he established a centre, he instituted a system whereby all the pariksa for the guru would be done on his behalf by the temple president. Also the aspiring disciple would be convinced to join based usually on simply reading Srila Prabhupada's books - that for him was HIS pariksa. The majority of Srila Prabhupada's disciples were initiated even without having met Srila Prabhupada. In fact the system of being represented by the temple president and also being examined by the representative of Srila Prabhupada is mentioned in the books as the system of initiation within ISKCON:

 

"Due to the necessity of these activities, we do not immediately initiate disciples in the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. For six months, a candidate for initiation must first attend arati and classes in the sastras, practice the regulative principles and associate with other devotees. When one is actually advanced in the purascarya-vidhi, he is recommended by the local temple president for initiation. It is not that anyone can be suddenly initiated without meeting the requirements. When one is further advanced by chanting the Hare Krsna mantra sixteen rounds daily, following the regulative principles and attending classes, he receives the sacred thread (brahminical recognition) after the second six months."

(C.c.,Madhya 15:108)

 

"In our Krsna consciousness movement, the requirement is that one must be prepared to give up the four pillars of sinful life-illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. In Western countries especially, we first observe whether a potential disciple is prepared to follow the regulative principles. Then he is given the name of a Vaisnava servant and initiated to chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, at least sixteen rounds daily. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master or his representative for at least six months to a year. He is then recommended for a second initiation, during which a sacred thread is offered and the disciple is accepted as a bona fide brahmana."

(C.c., Madhya 24:330)

 

Thus regarding the argument for PRE-initiation 'physical interaction' with the guru:

 

Srila Prabhupada does NOT teach this as a pre-requisite.

 

In fact the books speak of the necessary pre-initiation activities being completed through the use of representatives.

 

Srila Prabhupada practically demonstrated that there was no need for pre-initiation physical interaction in the way he personally ran ISKCON with most devotees taking initiation even without having met Srila Prabhupada.

 

However finally the argument will be given that yes all this may be so, but at least when Srila Prabhupada was here he was on the planet. But so what? If it is admitted that physical interaction is not necessary, then why is it necessary that the guru has to be on the planet? This would be a restriction that served no purpose. The argument that at least the disciple had the 'potential' to consult with Srila Prabhupada can not have any merit since if it is not even necessary to actually CONSULT with Srila Prabhupada, then how can just the POTENTIAL for consultation have any relevance?

 

Conclusion:

 

The 'living' guru concept has no basis in Srila Prabhupada's teachings, for either pre- or post-initiation activities.

 

That pre- and post initiation guru-disciple relationships can be conducted without the need for a 'living guru' IS taught by Srila Prabhupada.

 

So from every angle, in terms if what is taught, and in terms of practicalities, there is no need for the Guru to be physically present.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

If Christianity is a bona fide religion that can elevate one to the spiritual sky by itself, then does it not follow that one does not need a living guru? After all, Christians don't have a concept of a physically present "guru." Most Christians that I meet consider themselves disciples of Jesus Christ. It's like ritviks who consider themselves Prabhupada followers though they never met him.

 

 

[Kulapavana]

You are making a totaly bogus claim, dressing it up with out of context quotes.

Acceptance is, by definition of our tradition, a process where BOTH guru and disciple accept each other in order to complete the link to the parampara. That is the shastric proces. Do not contaminate our tradition with such un-Vedic concepts. Each acharya in our sampradaya MUST be viewed in the context of our tradition. That is part of our check and balance system, preventing overzealous disciples from taking words of their guru and inventing their own tradition.

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupada used the term physical guru when explaining that in the conditioned stage we cannot rely purely on the Caitya-Guru or Supersoul for guidance. It is imperative that we surrender to the external manifestation of the Supersoul. This is the diksa Guru. Such a Spiritual Master, who is considered a resident of the spiritual world, and an intimate associate of Lord Krsna, makes his physical appearance just to guide the fallen conditioned souls. Often such a Spiritual Master will write physical books; he will give lectures which can be heard with physical ears and be recorded on physical tape machines; he may leave physical murtis and even a physical GBC to continue managing everything once he has physically departed.

 

However what Srila Prabhupada never taught was that this physical guru must also be physically present in order to act as guru. As we have pointed out, were this the case, then currently no-one could be considered his disciple. If the guru must always be physically present in order for transcendental knowledge to be imparted, then once Srila Prabhupada left the planet all his disciples should have taken 're-initiation'. Furthermore thousands of Srila Prabhupada's disciples were initiated having had no contact with the physical body of Srila Prabhupada. Yet it is accepted that they approached, enquired from, surrendered to, served and took initiation from the physical spiritual master. No one is arguing that their initiations were null and void by dint of the above three quotes.

[Guest guest]

On July 7th, when setting up the ritvik system, Srila Prabhupada states that the ritviks could accept devotees as his disciples without consulting him. Thus, Srila Prabhupada was not involved in the process of screening, or approving new disciples. The ritviks had full authority and discretion. Srila Prabhupada's physical involvement was not required.

 

Srila Prabhupada:

 

So without waiting for me, wherever you consider it is right. That will depend on discretion.

 

Tamal Krsna:

 

On discretion.

 

Srila Prabhupada:

 

Yes.

(SP Room conversation, 7/7/77, Vrindavan)

 

Furthermore, the names given by the ritviks would be entered by Tamal Krsna Goswami into the 'initiated disciples' book. Thus, externally at least, Srila Prabhupada would not even have been aware of the disciple's existence. Consequently, the process now would be the same as it was then, since the ritvik has full power of attorney.

 

 

Leaving aside the two important pre-conditions to anyone initiating, it is clear that diksa activity within our parampara is enormously diverse. We have observed that violations of the so-called 'regular' system fall into five basic categories, though we do not deny there could be many others:

 

a) Gaps:

 

These are all the occasions when an acarya in the parampara leaves, and there is no next link to immediately start initiating. Or the person who is to become the next link does not immediately receive authorisation from his spiritual master to initiate on, or directly after, his departure. For example, there was a gap of some twenty years between the departure of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and the next bona fide initiation in our sampradaya. Gaps of more than one hundred years are not uncommon between members of the disciplic succession.

 

b) Reverse gaps:

 

These are all the occasions where an acarya has not yet left his body before his disciples start initiating. Lord Brahma, for example, has not yet left his body, and yet generations of successor gurus have initiated millions upon millions of disciples. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta initiated when both Srila Bhaktivinoda and Srila Gaura Kisora were still physically present. According to GII (p. 23) this is a common phenomenon in our sampradaya.

 

c) Siksa / diksa links:

 

There are instances of a disciple accepting an acarya as his principal spiritual master after he has left the planet. Whether the departed acarya is a siksa or a diksa guru to the disciple is often difficult to discern. Srila Prabhupada does not generally specify the precise nature of these spiritual interactions. For example, the exact nature of the relationship between Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura and Narottama dasa Thakura who lived over a hundred years apart, is not detailed by Srila Prabhupada. We may wish to call it a siksa relationship, but that is speculation, since Srila Prabhupada simply says :

 

"Srila Narottama dasa Thakura who accepted Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti as his servitor."

(C.c. Adi,1)

 

"...Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura. He accepted his guru, Narottama dasa Thakura."

(SP S.B. Lecture 17/4/76, Bombay)

 

Although such disciples normally go through some sort of ceremony with someone who is physically present, that still may not preclude the departed acarya from being his diksa guru ; just as a ritvik ceremony does not mean that the ritvik or Temple President is the eternal diksa guru. Also such disciples normally obtained permission from an authority who was physically present, to accept a sad-guru who was not. In a similar way, were the ritvik system re-instated, new disciples of Srila Prabhupada would first gain the approval of the Temple President and the ritvik before they were initiated.

 

d) Mode of initiation:

 

These are anomalous forms of initiation where unique, or inconceivable forms of diksa transmission take place. For example, Lord Krsna to Lord Brahma; or Lord Caitanya whispering into a Buddhist's ear. Interplanetary diksa might also come under this category. This is where personalities initiate, or transmit diksa to a disciple who resides on a different planet, for example Manu to Iksvaku in Bhagavad-gita (4.1).

 

e) Successor systems:

 

This refers to differing successor acarya systems within our sampradaya. For example Srila Bhaktivinoda adopted a 'powerful Vaisnava son' successor system. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta envisioned a 'self-effulgent acarya' successor system. As far as we can determine, Srila Prabhupada left in place a " ritvik - representative of the acarya, for the purpose of performing initiations" system, whereby "the newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada." The present system favoured by the GBC is a 'multiple acarya successor system'.

 

It is clear that the approach of each acarya is fairly unique; so to talk about a 'regular' system for continuing the parampara is practically meaningless.

[Kulapavana]

You have to consider what is the rule first. Vedas allow all kinds of exceptions to the general rules provided that there is a very good reason for it. Guru/disciple relationship is both instructional and mystical (and that includes personal sentiment, often carried from birth to birth) but the rule is clearly that of physical acceptance ond BOTH sides.

[Guest guest]

Guru/disciple relationship is both instructional and mystical (and that includes personal sentiment, often carried from birth to birth) but the rule is clearly that of physical acceptance ond BOTH sides.

 

 

Who said that? Please show me where Srila Prabhupada said that.

 

Srila Praphupada accepted many disciples when present in this planet without having any physical contact with Them. Are you thinking that there was something wrong in it?

[Kulapavana]

Our tradition does not begin or end with Srila Prabhupada.

 

Are you denying somehow that in our Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition the rule is physical acceptance ond BOTH sides of the guru/disciple relationship? LOL!

 

As to the second issue: the point is that SP willingly and formally accepted all these devotees on HIS SIDE as they were recommended by the local temple presidents.

[Guest guest]

Vedas allow all kinds of exceptions to the general rules provided that there is a very good reason for it.

 

 

Well, there is a very good reason behind. Have anybody ever established world-wide religional movement before? Eaven Jesus and Mohammed preached only in one country, but Prabhupada preached all over the world. Then you also need special systems for it.

 

"So Sridhar Maharaja and his two associate gentlemen unauthorised selected one acarya and later it proved a failure. The result is now everyone is claiming to be acarya even though they may be kanistha adhikari with no ability to preach. In some of the camps the acarya is being changed three times a year. Therefore we may not commit the same mistake in our ISKCON camp. "

(SPL (VI 1987) 74.4.52)

[Kulapavana]

Prabhu, there are many good devotees out there to take diksa from, but if some desire ritvik initiation - it is their choice...

A real guru always feels that he is doing things on behalf of his spiritual master. No need to invent a new system. All preaching is essentially local. Just make sure our tradition is alive in the hearts and minds of all who preach and accept disciples in our temples... Hare Krishna!

[Guest guest]

Our tradition does not begin or end with Srila Prabhupada.

 

Are you denying somehow that in our Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition the rule is physical acceptance ond BOTH sides of the guru/disciple relationship? LOL!

 

Where Srila Prabhupada said that? I don't know who's follower you are, but I'm following Srila Prabhupada and if you can't show me something from Srila Praphupada to support what you are telling, then I don't accept what ever you may say. Srila Prabhupada told that all information what we need is in His books and I accept that it is so.

 

 

As to the second issue: the point is that SP willingly and formally accepted all these devotees on HIS SIDE as they were recommended by the local temple presidents.

 

Tamala Krsna Maharaja:

 

Some devotees are writing you now for second initiation. And I am writing to them to wait a while, because you are not well. So can I continue to tell them that?

 

Srila Prabhupada:

 

They can be second initiated.

 

Tamala Krsna Maharaja:

 

By writing to you?

 

Srila Prabhupada:

 

No. These men.

 

Tamala Krsna Maharaja:

 

These men. They can also do second initiation. So there's no need for devotees to write to you for first and second initiation. they can write to the man nearest them. But all these persons are still your disciples. Anybody who would give initiations is doing so on your behalf.

 

Srila Prabhupada:

 

Yes.

 

 

In above cases nobody recommended those devotees for Srila Prabhupada before they got initiation and that system His Divine Grace wanted to go on.

[Kulapavana]

"Srila Prabhupada told that all information what we need is in His books and I accept that it is so"

So where in his books do you find your ritvik system? LOL!

[Guest guest]

 

So where in his books do you find your ritvik system? LOL!

 

Srila Prabhupada started ritvik system and you don't find anything against it from His books. But there is a lot of support for it:

 

After 80 years, no one can be expected to live long. My life is almost ended. So you have to carry on, and these books will do everything.

 

(Room Conversation, 18/2/76)

 

There is nothing new to be said. Whatever I had to say, I have already said in my books. Now you must try to understand it and continue with your endeavours. Whether I am present or not does not matter.

 

(Vrindavan, 17/5/77)

 

"The guru must be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru must be accepted from the topmost class." (C.c. Madhya, 24.330, purport)

 

"When one has attained the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshipped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru."

(C.c. Madhya, 24.330, purport)

 

"In other words, the spiritual master awakens the sleeping living entity to his original consciousness so that he can worship Lord Visnu. This is the purpose of diksa, or initiation. Initiation means receiving the pure knowledge of spiritual consciousness."

(C.c. Madhya, 9.61, purport)

 

"So anyway, from 1922 to 1933 practically I was not initiated, but I got the impression of preaching Caitanya Mahaprabhu's cult. That I was thinking. And that was the initiation by my Guru Maharaja."

(SP Lecture, 10/12/76, Hyderabad)

 

"Initiation is a formality. If you are serious, that is real initiation. My touch is simply a formality. It is your determination, that is initiation."

(BTG, Search for the Divine)

 

"...disciplic succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated officially. Disciplic succession means to accept the disciplic conclusion."

(SP Letter to Dinesh, 31/10/69)

 

"The chanting of Hare Krsna is our main business, that is real initiation. And as you are all following my instruction, in that matter, the initiator is already there."

(SP Letter to Tamal Krsna, 19/8/68)

 

"Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge... knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing."

(SP Interview, 16/10/76, Chandigarh)

 

Srila Prabhupada:

 

Who is my disciple? First of all let him follow strictly the disciplined rules.

 

Disciple:

 

As long as they are following, then he is...

 

Srila Prabhupada:

 

Then he is all right.

(SP Morning walk, 13/6/76, Detroit)

 

"...unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. Disciple means one who follows the discipline."

(SP Morning walk, 8/3/76, Mayapur)

 

"If one does not observe the discipline, then he is not disciple."

(SP S.B. Lecture, 21/1/74)

 

...and there is also much more. If you want to follow Srila Prabhupada, then you must accept everything what he says and not what your mind or some mythology may tell. Hare Krishna!

 

Srila Prabhupada ki jaya!

 

[Kulapavana]

I must have missed something but in all of these quotes there is no mention of the ritvik system (and only a few are quotes from SP books). So this is simply your conjecture, interpolation or speculation that he is talking about ritvik system in these quotes. And that is fine by me: you used your intelligence to understand SP instructions and came up with ritvik system. Yet others - studying the same instructions - have a different oppinion. Just learn to respect that...