Govindaram Posted August 4, 2003 Report Share Posted August 4, 2003 Hare Krishna Could somebody please explain to me how these 3 'things' are subtle, and how the brain with its chemicals plays a part in these 'things'. Because I was thinking that when you die these 3 'things' follow you even in a Ghosts body, and Ghosts bodys don't have brains so....?? Not that I want to be a Ghost mind you (get it mind you!) /images/graemlins/crazy.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif <font color="blue">O </font color> <font color="green"> Mind </font color> <font color="red"> Just </font color> <font color="orange">Worship </font color> <font color="black"> Krsna </font color> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2003 Report Share Posted August 4, 2003 Subtle--Mind-Intelligence-False Ego .... they are associated with soul, so they have a "center" in the metaphisical zone of the heart we think that toughts and intelligence start from the brain because all the main senses are in the head and we somewhat "feel" that they start from there intelligence is also in the legs... if a car is hitting you.. your legs start to run before your "brain" starts to elaborate what is happening and what's better to do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted August 6, 2003 Report Share Posted August 6, 2003 In this portion of the second chapter of "Vedic Cosmography And Astronomy" by Dr. Richard L. Thompson (SadApUta DAsa of the Bhaktivedanta Institute), we see that our scientific understanding of the functioning of physical reality is not yet evolved enough to adequately explain many phenomena, including the relationship between the brain and the mind:<blockquote>VEDIC PHYSICS THE NATURE OF SPACE, TIME, AND MATTER "By Him even the great sages and demigods are placed into illusion, as one is bewildered by the illusory representations of water seen in fire, or land seen on water. Only because of Him do the material universes, temporarily manifested by the reactions of the three modes of nature, appear factual, although they are unreal." (SB 1.1.1). Our ideas of the nature of space, time, and matter are essential ingredients in our understanding of the cosmos. When we look into the heavens, our direct sensory data consist of patterns of light. These patterns say nothing, in and of themselves, about the nature of the sources of this light. In order to say something about the cosmic manifestations that have produced the light, it is necessary to assume that the universe is made of some kind of stuff, or matter, that has certain characteristics and obeys certain laws. Given such assumptions, we can then ask ourselves what arrangement of this matter, acting in accordance with the laws, would produce the observed light patterns. If we are successful in putting together a consistent explanation of the observed data based on the assumed laws and properties, then we tend to suppose that we have correctly understood the structure of the universe. In our mind's eye, our theoretical models take on an air of concrete reality, and it almost seems as though we were holding the universe in the palm of our hand. Throughout most of modern human history, people have been limited to the surface of the earth, and they have based their ideas of the nature of matter on observations that we can perform in this limited domain using our ordinary senses. Over the last two or three hundred years, Western scientists have used experimental observation and the analysis of experimental results to build up an extensive body of knowledge--the science of modern physics--which gives a detailed picture of the properties of matter and the laws governing its behavior. The modern Western understanding of the nature and structure of the universe as a whole is based on interpreting observed celestial phenomena within the framework of modern physics. The thesis of this book is that the framework of modern physics is too limited to accommodate many phenomena that occur within this universe. In particular, this framework cannot accommodate many features of the universe that are described in the Vedic literature, and thus the Vedic accounts often seem absurd or mythological when viewed from the perspective of modern science. At the present time, certain assumptions of modern physics have been adopted by people in general as the very foundation of their world view. These assumptions are incompatible with the underlying assumptions of the Vedic world view, and thus they tend to block people from having free access to the Vedic literature. In this section we will try to alleviate this difficulty by discussing the nature of the material energy as described in the Vedic literature. Since this is a very deep and complex subject, we will be able to touch on only a few points that are relevant to the understanding of Vedic cosmology. 2.A. Extending Our Physical World View Before making a truly radical departure from our familiar conceptions, we will begin by discussing some relatively moderate instances in which the Vedic literature refers to phenomena and theoretical ideas that do not fit into the current framework of scientific thought. These examples illustrate two main points: (1) Although many Vedic ideas contradict current scientific thinking, they also allow for the possibility that the contradictions can be alleviated by extending the conceptual scope of modern science. (2) Many ideas relevant to our physical world-picture are alluded to only briefly in works such as the SrImad-BhAgavatam, since these works were not intended to serve as textbooks of astronomy or physical science. Thus the conceptual advances needed to reconcile the Vedic world view with modern science may be difficult to make, since they require ideas that radically extend current theories but are not explicitly spelled out in available Vedic texts. Our first example is found in SB 3.26.34p. There we read that the ethereal element provides a substrate for the production of subtle forms by the mind, and that it is also involved in the circulation of vital air within the body. SrIla PrabhupAda indicates that "this verse is the potential basis of great scientific research work," and indeed, it provides a clear idea of how the subtle mind may interact with the gross elements of the body and brain. In the theoretical structure of modern physics, however, there is at present no place for such a conception of the mind and the ethereal element (although some physicists have tentatively begun to entertain such ideas). As a consequence, scientists still generally adhere to the idea that it is impossible for the brain to interact with a distinct nonphysical mind. This in turn makes it impossible for them to give credence to many phenomena that imply the existence of such a mind, even though empirical evidence for these phenomena has existed for many years. These phenomena include the psychic events studied by the parapsychologists, out-of-body experiences, and the spontaneous remembrance of previous incarnations by small children. It is not our purpose here to make a case for the reality of such phenomena. Our main point is that it is very difficult for people (including scientists) to seriously contemplate particular ideas about reality unless those ideas fit neatly into a familiar and accepted conceptual system. The current theories of physics have been worked out in great technical detail, and one who lives in the conceptual universe these theories provide may find that the Vedic idea of ether seems crude and unimpressive. Openness to the Vedic ideas may also be blocked by certain misconceptions, such as the idea that ether must be like the "luminiferous ether" rejected by Einstein. Yet the possibility nonetheless exists that physical theory can be extended by introducing a new conception of the ether that agrees with the Vedic conception and is consistent with experimental observations. And such an extended theory may provide explanations for many phenomena presently considered scientifically impossible. Texts such as the SrImad-BhAgavatam were written for the purpose of clearly explaining certain spiritual ideas to people in general. However, they inevitably make reference to many other ideas that were familiar to people of the ancient Vedic culture but that may be very unfamiliar to people of modern Western background. One interesting example is the analogy given by SrIla SanAtana GosvAmI in which the transformation of a lowborn man into a brAhmaNa is compared to the transformation of bell metal into gold by an alchemical process (SB 5.24.17p). The alchemical process itself is not described, and on the basis of modern science we might tend to regard such a transformation as impossible. Yet the dictionary defines bell metal as an alloy of copper and tin, and if we consult the periodic table of the elements, we find that the atomic numbers of copper and tin added together give the atomic number of gold. This suggests that there just might be something to this example, but if so, it clearly involves an extensive body of practical and theoretical knowledge that is completely unknown to us. For SanAtana GosvAmI, however, this transformation simply provided a familiar example to illustrate a point about the spiritual transformation of human beings.</blockquote> As referenced above, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.26.34<blockquote><center><font color="red">bhUtAnAM chidra-dAtRtvaM bahir antaram eva ca prANendriyAtma-dhiSNyatvaM nabhaso vRtti-lakSaNam </center> bhUtAnAm--of all living entities; chidra-dAtRtvam--the accommodation of room; bahiH--external; antaram--internal; eva--also; ca--and; prANa--of the vital air; indriya--the senses; Atma--and the mind; dhiSNyatvam--being the field of activities; nabhasaH--of the ethereal element; vRtti--activities; lakSaNam--characteristics. </font> The activities and characteristics of the ethereal element can be observed as accommodation for the room for the external and internal existences of all living entities, namely the field of activities of the vital air, the senses and the mind. PURPORT The mind, the senses and the vital force, or living entity, have forms, although they are not visible to the naked eye. Form rests in subtle existence in the sky, and internally it is perceived as the veins within the body and the circulation of the vital air. Externally there are invisible forms of sense objects. The production of the invisible sense objects is the external activity of the ethereal element, and the circulation of vital air and blood is its internal activity. That subtle forms exist in the ether has been proven by modern science by transmission of television, by which forms or photographs of one place are transmitted to another place by the action of the ethereal element. That is very nicely explained here. This verse is the potential basis of great scientific research work, for it explains how subtle forms are generated from the ethereal element, what their characteristics and actions are, and how the tangible elements, namely air, fire, water and earth, are manifested from the subtle form. Mental activities, or psychological actions of thinking, feeling and willing, are also activities on the platform of ethereal existence. The statement in Bhagavad-gItA that the mental situation at the time of death is the basis of the next birth is also corroborated in this verse. Mental existence transforms into tangible form as soon as there is an opportunity due to contamination or development of the gross elements from subtle form.</blockquote> gHari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted August 6, 2003 Report Share Posted August 6, 2003 Scientists would have us believe that physical reality, that matter and energy behave according to clearly defined natural physical laws. The chemicals and synapses in the brain react according to these governing natural laws. Were this true, and since we cannot control these laws, we would therefore have no control over our brains and according to the current scientific worldview, we could exert no control over our very thoughts. We are then simply robots reacting to the physical laws. We would have no free will; yet each of us experiences the contrary. Science as yet cannot explain how the mind appears to be under our control, although the brain itself is governed strictly by external forces which are beyond our influence. This is the paradox of current scientific thought. The house of cards collapses. [ENTER THE VEDAS] gHari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govindaram Posted August 6, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2003 Hare Krishna So scientists say this and that (they don't believe in soul). In the Gita Krishna says He is the Master of the senses inc the Mind, so our mind at present is under our own control due to our minute independence, so then, when we surrender to Lord Krishna (70%,80%,90%,100%!!), our mind is directly controlled by Krishna or in other words all our senses are engaged in His service. So its sort of the same thing, I think. Also Krishna says that the Mind is higher than the senses, the Intelligence is still higher than the Mind, and the Soul proper is higher than the Intelligence. So the soul is covered by (mind, intelligence) so when the Mind is cleaned by chanting Hare-Krishna, the intelligence is automatically cleared and our souls natural influence is exhibited. Am I right? <font color="blue">O </font color> <font color="green"> Mind </font color> <font color="red"> Just </font color> <font color="orange">Worship </font color> <font color="black"> Krsna </font color> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted August 7, 2003 Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 Sure sounded good to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2003 Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 The thought process that dwell on subjects like "Mind-Intelligence-False Ego" does not really matter. What does matter is your love for krishna. As you will find out in your future, the very pain and misery of this world will make you realize krishna. These three things(Mind-Intelligence-False Ego) are tools to realize krishna. So, the mind will make you suffer by creating false ego in you. The false ego will get hurt again and again. Then finally you come to a certain point in your life that you think, "Why am I suffering this way"- In that case it is the intelligence working. It is a tool to discriminate between what you really want and where you are looking at for the thing you want. You will then realize that what you want is krishna, only him. Then, this intelligence will tame the mind and the mind will tame the Ego. These things are just mere tools to make you look at the right place , for the right thing-Krishna. When you do so, you will realize that nothing really matters any more. /images/graemlins/grin.gif I do hope you get to a point where nothing matters accept that shyamasundhar. -Anonymous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govindaram Posted August 7, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 Hare Krishna Quote from Guest: I do hope you get to a point where nothing matters accept that shyamasundhar. I you kidding so DO I! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif and Thanks for 'hoping' for me the same to you Prabhu. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Haribol! /images/graemlins/smile.gif <font color="blue">O </font color> <font color="green"> Mind </font color> <font color="red"> Just </font color> <font color="orange">Worship </font color> <font color="black"> Krsna </font color> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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