Scriptural evidences about Sri Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu

[Guest guest]

 

You have tried to engage us in Philosophical Discourse, which is a game with rather stringent rules, east or west. Most of us here are either not trained for that sort of exercise

 

 

 

Just as an aside, I was not "trained" in philosophical discourse either. My academic background has nothing to do with philosophy or religious studies; nor do I have any other training in debate.

 

As far as "stringent" rules of philosophical debate are concerned, as far as I'm concerned they really amount to a few common-sense things: (1) Scriptures (Vedas, Itihaasas, Puraanas) are the topmost authorities, (2) Literal interpretations are always favored over secondary interpretations, unless a literal interpretation does not fit within context or is illogical, and (3) The most correct theory is that which is the simplest and which explains the largest body of evidence with the fewest assumptions. (Ockham's razor as scientists would say)

 

Needless to say, there may be other rules, but these are a few which I consider relevant off the top of my head.

 

Now I would like to offer a few comments to my own comments regarding the difficulty accepting some of this evidence for Chaitanya Mahaaprabhu's divinity. I do not wish to leave people with the erroneous impression that I think it is a hopeless case. Nor do I think my responses are necessarily conclusive or authoritative. This is only for the purpose of stimulating discussion, by which I hope to learn more. Needless to say, anyone can feel free to play devil's advocate - I won't be offended. Discussions should be for the purpose of strengthening conviction rather than shaming detractors into silence.

 

 

 

The first problem is that BV Tripurari has automatically quoted Srila Prabhupada's translation, when the problem here is that no other Vaishnava sampradaaya accepts this translation of the above verse. Indeed, Srila Prabhupada himself has translated this verse in different ways depending on context, sometimes emphasizing the prediction of Chaitanya Mahaaprabhu and at other times emphasizing simply its description of the Yuga dharma for Kali.

 

Thus, in order to prove that this verse is saying what Srila Prabhupada has said that it says, BV Tripurari should not simply quote Prabhupada's translation as if it is a given. Rather, he should analyze the verse and its context and show how only Srila Prabhupada's translation fully captures the essence of that verse.

 

 

 

Opponents' problems with Srila Prabhupada's translations will likely be as follows:

 

(1) "kR^iShNa-varNa.m" - most obvious interpretation simply means having the color of Krishna. No reason to interpret as chanting the name of Krishna.

 

(2) "tviShaakR^iShNa.m" - refers to having luster of Krishna.

 

(3) There is no mention that this verse refers to an avataar who would appear in Kali Yuga. It only says that intelligent people will worship the Supreme Lord like this in Kali Yuga.

 

Regarding "kR^iShNa-varNa.m" certainly one would think this to refer to the color of Krishna first and foremost. Satyanarayana dasa also mentions a translation of this verse which takes the meaning as "having the color of Krishna (internally) and yet not having the luster of Krishna (externally)" which also fits our view.

 

However, in Srila Prabhupada's translation "varNa.m" from "kR^iShNa-varNa.m" is not taken to refer to the color of Krishna. This is a reasonable position because the prior verses have already spoken of the sukla, ratka, and shyaama colored yuga avataaras, so we would not want to assume that this verse is again speaking of the krishna colored avataara when four different colors are elsewhere mentioned (more on this below).

 

Instead, Srila Prabhupada uses a secondary meaning of "varNa.m" as "syllable, word." This secondary meaning is accepted by common Sanskrit-English dictionaries.

 

from Capellar' Sanskrit-English dictionary(http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/tamil/cap_search.html):

Entry varNa

Meaning m. cover, lid; outside, external appearance, colour, dye, paint, complexion; sort, kind, character, sort of men i.e. caste; letter, sound, vowel, syllable, word; praise, glory.

from Cologne (based on Monier-Williams) Sanskrit-English dictionary (http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/tamil/mwd_search.html):

 

Entry varNa

Meaning m. (or n. g. %{ardharcA7di} , prob. fr. 1. %{vR} ; ifc. f. %{A}) a covering , cloak , mantle L. ; a cover , lid Ya1jn5. iii , 99 ; outward appearance , exterior , form , figure , shape , colour RV. &c. &c. ; colour of the face , (esp.) good colour or complexion , lustre , beauty Mn. MBh. &c. ; colour , tint , dye , pigment (for painting or writing) MBh. Ka1v. &c. ; colour = race , species , kind , sort , character , nature , quality , property (applied to persons and things) RV. &c. &c. ; class of men , tribe , order , caste (prob. from contrast of colour between the dark aboriginal tribes and their fair conquerors ; in RV. esp. applied to the A1ryas and the Da1sas ; but more properly applicable to the four principal classes described in Manu's code , viz. Bra1hmans , Kshatriyas , Vais3yas , and Su1dras ; the more modern word for `" caste "' being ja1ti ; cf. IW. 210 n. 1) ib. ; a letter , sound , vowel , syllable , word Br. Pra1t. &c. ; a musical sound or note (also applied to the voice of animals) MBh. R. Pan5cat. ; the order or arrangement of a song or poem W. ; praise , commendation , renown , glory Mr2icch. Kum. Ra1jat. ; (in alg.) an unknown magnitude or quantity ; (in arithm.) the figure , `" one "' ; (accord. to some) a co-efficient ; a kind of measure L. (cf. %{-tAla}) ; gold L. ; a religious observance L. ; one who wards off , expeller Sa1y. on RV. i , 104 , 2 ; (%{A}) f. Cajanus Indicus L. ; n. saffron L. [Cf. accord. to some , Slav. {vranu8} , `" black "' , `" a crow "' ; Lith. {vA7rnas} , `" a crow. "']

An example of "varNa.m" as used in this context can be seen in Srila Bilvamangala Thaakura's Govinda-Daamodara Stotram:

 

vicitra-varNAbharaNAbhirAmebhidhehi vaktrAmbuja-rAjaHaMse |

sadA madIye rasane 'gra-raGge govinda dAmodara mAdhaveti ||

 

O my tongue, since my mouth has become like a lotus by dint of the presence there of these eloquent, ornamental, delightful syllables, you are like the swan that plays there. As your foremost pleasure, always articulate the names, "Govinda,DAmodara," and "MAdhava."

 

So "kR^iShNa-varNa.m" meaning "chanting the syllables of Krishna" is perfectly reasonable within context.

 

"tviShaakR^iShNa.m" can be parsed as either tviShaa kR^iShNa.m (having the luster of Krishna - black) or tvishaa akR^iShNa.m (not having the luster of Krishna or blackish color). Either one is reasonable according to Sanskrit samdhi rules, and Srila Prabhupada and disciples have accepted the latter approach. Again, this only makes sense because the blue colored yuga avataara was described in the previous verses.

 

As far as the suggestion that this does not refer to an avataara, such a theory ignores the significance of "saa.ngopaa.ngaastrapaarShadam" (accompanied with associates, servitors, weapons, and confidential companians). Gaudiiyas will not accept that there is no avataara in Kali Yuga, because this is contradicted by "yadaa yadaa hi dharmasya ...."

 

 

The second problem as I see it is that BV Tripurari is so far quoting the Bhaagavatam, which several generations of Vaishnava scholars have already studied and commented upon. This is a problem only because he doesn't seem to acknowledge this. He should come to terms with the fact that other Vaishnavas are also familiar with these verses. Rather than quoting these verses as if they obviously support his position, he should explain why this is so - even going so far as to compare and contrast with other possible interpretations that are likely to be put forward.

 

For example, Maadhvas do not translate the above as meaning that the Lord appears in a concealed form in Kali Yuga. They take it to mean rather that His form is not seen in Kali Yuga and hence He is known as Tri-Yuga. Personally, I don't find this interpretation very convincing, based on "yadaa yadaa hi dharmasya.... dharmasamsthaapanaarthaaya sambhavaami yuge yuge" but that's not the point. The point is that BVT has not given any further commentary on this point, when it is he who is trying to do the convincing.

 

 

 

One does not speak of something being "covered" unless that thing was not there in the first place. Or to put it another way - a thing has to be present at a time in order for it to be covered at that time.

 

Again, as the Lord appears in each and every yuga, this verse is best interpreted literally, rather than taking a secondary meaning (that there is no avataara in Kali) which is inconsistent with Bhagavad-giitaa.

 

 

 

Here now we have a verse that is more suggestive - explicitly giving a characteristic that is traditionally ascribed by Gaudiiyas to Lord Chaitanya. The problem here is that the above verse is not specific for Lord Chaitanya. The fact that the Lord appears in some age in a golden color does not preclude the possibility that it refers to some other form of the Lord. It is not obvious from reading the above verse that Lord Chaitanya is being referred to, objectively speaking. All that is obvious is that a golden-colored form of the Lord is being referred to.

 

 

 

It is true that this verse does not explicitly mention Lord Chaitanya. However, it does refer to the red, white, and gold colors which the Lord assumes depending on the Yuga (hence Yuga-avataara). And it also says that the Lord is currently (Dvaapara-Yuga when it was spoken) krishna (bluish-black). From context of 11th Canto, we know that the white and red avataaras are for Satya and Treta yugas respectively. And we know that Krishna, the blackish-blue avataara appeared in Dvaapara. So to which Yuga does the golden colored avataara belong? It is clearly Kali Yuga.

 

All this points to a golden colored avataara who is "covered" or not publicly revealed in Kali Yuga. Now to determine who He is, we can use process of elimination or turn to more explicit sources.

 

Process of elimination: The alleged avataaras of Kali-Yuga include Vyaasa, Venkateshwara, Chaitanya, and Kalki. Kalki is not described as golden colored ever. Vyaasa actually appears in Dvaapara Yuga but lives into Kali Yuga. The evidence for Lord Venkateshwara's Divinity is no stronger than Lord Chaitanya's, scripturally speaking. And anyway Lord Venkateshwara is not described as golden colored (His Deity form shows that He has black colored skin), although His armor is certainly golden colored.

 

But a skeptic might want solid proof, rather than proof by suggestion or elimination. This is where we can do nothing other than turn to texts like the Chaitanya Upanishad, the Seshi-khaNDa of the Vaayu Puraana, or other sources quoted by Sanaatana-Gosvaami. One could rightfully point out that these sources are not well known and cannot serve as objective evidence. True - but then what other evidence exists to determine who that golden-colored avataara in Kali Yuga is? All sampradaayas have their unique "scriptures" whose authenticity only they can vouch for. The Maadhvas have Vishnu Upanishad and Brahmna Tarka. The Sri Vaishnavas have the Divya Prabandham and the Ahirbudhnya Samhitaa. It may just be that this is the best we can do. Unless someone wants to drive the point home more decisively, in which case one should do more research into establishing the authenticity of texts like Chaitanya Upanishad.

 

The bottom line is that accepting Achintya Bheda Abheda is not contingent on accepting Chaitanya Mahaaprabhu's divinity initially. One can start with the assumption that He is a devotee and an achaarya (since He was behaving in that capacity) and proceed to study His teachings since they are based 100% on the Bhaagavatam. Many devotees suggest that Mahaaprabhu's identity can only be appreciated by very advanced practitioners of Gaudiiya Vaishnavism. In this case we may have to satisfy ourselves with refuting alternative translations of the "Chaitanya verses" and establishing that there is no better interpretation of those verses than the Gaudiiya one. This may not serve as the rigorous standard by which Chaitanya's divinity can be proven to other Vaishnavas; but then again, ask a Maadhva to prove Madhva's identity as Vaayu or Sri Vaishnavas to prove Raamaanuja's identity as Ananta-Sesha and you will likely see similar problems on their part.

 

Comments?

 

[Guest guest]

 

...........................................

The bottom line is that accepting Achintya Bheda Abheda is not contingent on accepting Chaitanya Mahaaprabhu's divinity initially. One can start with the assumption that He is a devotee and an achaarya (since He was behaving in that capacity) and proceed to study His teachings since they are based 100% on the Bhaagavatam. Many devotees suggest that Mahaaprabhu's identity can only be appreciated by very advanced practitioners of Gaudiiya Vaishnavism. In this case we may have to satisfy ourselves with refuting alternative translations of the "Chaitanya verses" and establishing that there is no better interpretation of those verses than the Gaudiiya one. This may not serve as the rigorous standard by which Chaitanya's divinity can be proven to other Vaishnavas; but then again, ask a Maadhva to prove Madhva's identity as Vaayu or Sri Vaishnavas to prove Raamaanuja's identity as Ananta-Sesha and you will likely see similar problems on their part.

..........................

 

 

 

Ironically I think this was the spirit of Tripurari's article, and therefore he did not try to show that the verses he quoted definitively pointed to Lord Caitanya's divinity. He said that Sanantana Goswami "saw" Mahaprabhu in these verses and that they were compelling, but seemed to play down the need for unrefutable evidence. He stressed that those who love Lord Caitanya will see him everywhere implying that there is an acceptable degree of subjectivity in scriptural readings. As long as one makes some reasonable effort to establish his subjective spiritual reality with scriptural support and along with that demonstrates an undeniable spiritual example himself (as did the Goswamis), even though others may not agree with his interpretaion he cannot be dismissed. Thus Caitanya Vaisnavism is accepted by the objective, while some other Vedantists who cannot see that they have more or less done the same thing and that no one holds irrefutable truth on what every verse of scripture means like to argue that Caitnaya Vaisnavism is not bonafide.

[Guest guest]

 

Ironically I think this was the spirit of Tripurari's article, and therefore he did not try to show that the verses he quoted definitively pointed to Lord Caitanya's divinity. He said that Sanantana Goswami "saw" Mahaprabhu in these verses and that they were compelling, but seemed to play down the need for unrefutable evidence. He stressed that those who love Lord Caitanya will see him everywhere implying that there is an acceptable degree of subjectivity in scriptural readings. As long as one makes some reasonable effort to establish his subjective spiritual reality with scriptural support and along with that demonstrates an undeniable spiritual example himself (as did the Goswamis), even though others may not agree with his interpretaion he cannot be dismissed. Thus Caitanya Vaisnavism is accepted by the objective, while some other Vedantists who cannot see that they have more or less done the same thing and that no one holds irrefutable truth on what every verse of scripture means like to argue that Caitnaya Vaisnavism is not bonafide.

 

 

When I learned martial arts, my instructor used to tell me that if your opponent is going to strike you and you can't avoid it, then it is better to roll with the punch.

 

But if you are a little more advanced, you can roll with the punch and use your opponent's momentum against him.

 

I think maybe your strategy is a lot like #1. Probably we have to wait for someone who is really learned to do #2.

 

Cheers

[Guest guest]

For the past 500 years we have seen only these kinds of verses with no explanations of them that will completely satisfy other sampradayas, along with what often appears to be manufactured verses or verses said to have been in manuscripts that are not in present day manuscripts. Your second proposal may be no more than a dream. The so called 7th Goswami was not that person. Is there an eighth to come?

[Guest guest]

 

For the past 500 years we have seen only these kinds of verses with no explanations of them that will completely satisfy other sampradayas, along with what often appears to be manufactured verses or verses said to have been in manuscripts that are not in present day manuscripts. Your second proposal may be no more than a dream. The so called 7th Goswami was not that person. Is there an eighth to come?

 

 

Is it really important that we convince other sampradaayas? When even they cannot convince us of the divinity of their respective avataaras, why should we? Isn't it more important to demonstrate the scriptural basis of Achintya Bheda Abheda to their satisfaction first?

[Guest guest]

I think it's important to have convincing evidence. This is not the same thing as "convincing" others. We should be able to present evidence to satisfy a certain objective standard. Having done that, we don't need to measure its validity by the number of people convinced.

 

Chaitanya Mahaaprabhu's divinity does not depend on any number of people accepting it for it to be true. But glorifying Him as the Supreme Lord should be done with full attention to scriptural evidence, and not to be taken lightly.

 

[stonehearted]

I often tell my students that if they put together a good argument for a position, they may or may not convince others to accept that position, but if the others understand why they think that way, that's a lot of progress.

 

I think the best reason for developing this thread is that, as I think Krishna S. pointed out earlier, such an exercise helps us strenghten our capacity to understand these things, perhaps as well as our faith, for those who need it. I think that's a very important reason, and if those who participate can avoid the kinds of distractions that afflicted this thread earlier, it will be quite valuable. I don't remember whether the link was posted earlier in this thread, but B.G. Narasingha Maharaja's essay on Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's divinity is an invaluable resource.

 

I also think I would benefit from participating if I can curb my natural haughtiness. However, it's the beginning of the semseter, and I'm not sure I have the time or energy to do it justice right now. I'll probably check on the thread every few days. If I do post something and it seems like I'm butting in or launching one of my rhetorical harangues, I trust that Krishna S. will slap me upside the head to calm me down.

[Guest guest]

 

He stressed that those who love Lord Caitanya will see him everywhere implying that there is an acceptable degree of subjectivity in scriptural readings. As long as one makes some reasonable effort to establish his subjective spiritual reality with scriptural support and along with that demonstrates an undeniable spiritual example himself (as did the Goswamis), even though others may not agree with his interpretaion he cannot be dismissed.

 

 

 

Well said......

 

Kishalaya

[Guest guest]

LORD CAITANYA PREDICTED IN THE SCRIPTURES!!!

 

I came across a book translated and published by Kushakratha Prabhu of Krishna institute wherein there are literally innumerable verses concerning Lord Caitanya in the scriptures. Unfortunately for most of them the verses and chapters are not stated. Here are some of them.

 

Atharva veda.

 

When between four-thousand to five-thousand years of the kali yuga have passed, I will descend to a place on the earth by the ganges’ shore. I will be a tall, fair, and saintly brahmana devotee of the Lord.I will have all the signs of an exalted person. I be renounced, free of all material desire. I will accept the order of renunciation(sannyas) I will be a devotee advanced in bhakti yoga. I will chant the holy names of the Lord. I will taste the sweet mellows of my own devotional service. Only the great devotees will understand me.

 

SAMA VEDA

 

To deliver the people devored by the sins of kali-yuga,I accompanied by my associates, descend to the earth in a place by the ganges’ shore. I will be a brahmana avadhuta-sannyasi. Again and again I will chant the holy names of the Lord.

 

KRISHNA UPANISAD

 

In the Kali yuga Lord Krishna will appear in a brahmana’s family. He will teach the message of the upanishada and the dharma-shastras. He will defeat the atheists and the offenders and he will establish the truth of vaishnava dharma..

 

CHANDOGYA UPANISHAD

 

In that place is a wonderful city lotus like and eight petal flower.

 

In the middle of that lotus city is a place called mayapura, and in the middle of mayapura is a place called Antardvipa. That place is the home of Lord Caitanya, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

MUNDAKA UPANISHAD

 

One who sees that golden colored supreme personality of Godhead, the supreme actor, who is the source of the supreme Brahman, is liberated.

 

SVETASVATARA UPANISHAD

 

The supreme personality of Godhead is Mahaprabhu, who disseminates enlightenment. Just to be in touch with him is to be in contact with the indestructible brahmajyoti.

 

BHAGAVTAM

 

In the age of kali, intelligent persons perform congregational chanting to worship the incarnation of Godhead, who consrantly sings the names of Krishna. Although his complexion is not blackish, He is Krishna Himself. He is accompanied his servants, associates, weapons, and confidential companions.

 

My Lord, you kill all the enemies of the world in your multifarious incarnations in the families of men, animals, demi-gods, rishis, aquatics, and so on. Thus You illuminate the world with transcendental knowledge. In the age of kali, O Mahapurusha, You sometimes appear in a covered incarnation. Therefore you are known as Triyuga(one who appears in only three yugas).

 

(I would like to know how the followers of Ramanuja and Madvacarya translate and explain these verses.)

 

KURMA PURANA

 

To deliver the condition souls burning in the troubles of kali-yuga, in the first sandhya of that age, the supreme personality of Godhead will take birth in a brahmana’s family.

 

GARUDA PURANA

 

In My original spiritual form, perfect and complete, I will become the son of Saci-devi in Navadvipa-Mayapur at the beginning of kali yuga.

 

In the first sandhya of kali yuga, the supreme personality of Godhead will assume a golden form. First he will be the husband of Laksmi, and then, He will be a sannyasi who stays near Lord Jagannath at Puri.

 

The supreme Personality of Godhead, who enjoyed glorious pastimes with Shridama,Dama, and the other Gopa boys in Vrindavan forest, and whose eyes glanced at the gopis breasts, will again come to this world to reveal the nature of pure spiritual love. At that time his name will be Caitanya.

 

DEVI PURANA

 

The supreme personality of Godhead will again appear in this world. His name will be Sri Krishna Caitanya and He will spread the chanting of the Lord’s Holy names.

 

NRSIMHA PURANA

 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who in the satya yuga appeared as a half-man half-lion to cure a terrible disease that had ravaged the daityas, and who in treta- yuga appeared as a person named Rama, a person who defeated the ten headed demon Ravana, and who in Dvapara - yuga removed the earth’s burden and protected the gopa people of Vraja-pura, will appear again in the kali-yuga. His form will be golden, He will delight in chanting the Lord’s holy names, and His name will be Caitanya.

PADMA PURANA

 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is filled with bliss,who rescues the devotees from a host of calamities, and who is the master of yoga and the object of the yogis’ meditation,will appear in His transcendental form and will be known by the name Caitanya.

 

In the first sandhya of kali yuga I will appear on the earth in a beautiful place by the ganges’ shore. I will be the son of Sacidevi and My complexion will be golden.

 

BRAHMA PURANA

 

In the first sandhya of kali yuga I will reveal my eternal golden form by the ganges’ shore on the earth.

 

BHAVISHYA PURANA

 

O sage whose wealth is austerity,in the kali yuga everyone will see my form as a sannyasi, a form filled with bliss and bodily hairs standing erect in ecstacy.

 

AGNI PURANA

 

The supreme Personality of Godhead will appear in a golden form with a graceful long neck and a peaceful heart. He will be surrounded by a host of saintly devotees.

 

MATSYA PURANA

 

In the kali yuga I will take birth in a place where three rivers meet. I will be fair and tall. I will have a shaven head. I will be very merciful. I will eagerly chant the holy names.

 

VAYU PURANA

 

In the kali yuga I will take birth in a place by the Ganges’ shore. I will be fair and tall. I will have a shaven head. I will be very merciful and pure in heart. I will eagerly chant the holy names.

 

MARKANDEYA PURANA

 

In the kali yuga I will leave goloka and,to save the people of the world, I will become handsome and playful Lord Gaurana.

 

VAMANA PURANA

VAMANA PURANA

 

O Narada, taking birth in Saci’s womb, I will deliver the sinful people from the terrible darkness of kali yuga.

 

VAYU PURANA

 

In the month of phalguana, when the star phalguni is conjoined with the full moon,I will appear in a golden form begotten the Jagannatha Miisra in Saci-devi’s womb.

 

I will take bith in a brahmana family in the city of Navadvipa, by the ganges’ shore.

 

In order to show mercy to the people and engage them in devotional service, I will accept sannyasa. Then my name will be Sri Krisna Caitanya.

 

VISHNU PURANA

When in the world there is no vedic study, and no yajnas with the chanting of vasat-kara, svadha, and svaha, the supreme Personality of Godhead will appear as a brahmana.

 

BRAHMA YAMALA TANTRA

 

Sometimes I personally appear on the surface of the earth in the garb of a devotee. Specifically I appear as the son of Saci in kali yuga to start the Sankirtan movement.

 

KRISHNA YAMALA TANTRA

 

His limbs will be golden and His voice deep. He will be very merciful. He will yearn to taste the nectar of His own holy name.He will be attached to chanting His own Holy name.

 

SKANDA PURANA

 

Outwardly of a fair complexion, but inwardly Krishna,I will take birth in Saci-devi’s womb. Accompanied by my associates, servants, weapons, and confidential companions, I will assume the rule of a human being.

 

VAYU PURANA(Dialogue between Shatananda and Gautama Muni)

 

How can the people of kali yuga be delivered?

 

O demigids, take birth as devotees on the earth. I will take birth as Saci-devi’s son and I will start the Sankirtan movement, a movement of chanting the holy names.

 

For they who have become blinded by kali yuga, a verse with My holy names will rise loike a glorious sun. This verse is:

 

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare.

 

I would like those who have access to some of these literatures to check out these verses and enlighten me or any interested party. As previously stated, I am interested in seeing Sri vaisnava and Madhvacarya translations and purports to the quoted Bhagavatam verses.

 

Vrindavan dharma ki jaya!!

[Guest guest]

I don't know why people keep saying "Atharva Veda" for that first piece of evidence. I think that "Atharva Veda" quote is in fact from Chaitanya Upanishad. Of course, Chaitanya Upanishad is considered by us to be from the Atharva Veda, but this is not accepted by anyone outside our line.