The Difference Between Children Brought up in the East and West

[livingentity]

I found this article while do some web surfing and thought it might spark some discussion here.

 

From the age of about one year to eleven years old I was raised by my grandparents who were raised in the late 1800's. I was brought up as the author of this article describes the children raised in the east. I really have not thought much about it until I read this article.

***********************************************

 

The Difference Between Children Brought up in the East and West

Children brought up in the West, lack the basic and very important quality of Compassion.

 

In India, when one visits the home of a relative or friend.

 

One of the children will most likely open the door.

The children will bring water and then tea and snacks.

The children will help cook for the guests.

The children will sit with the guests and talk.

The children will give up their bedroom for the guests.

The children will give up their bed for the guests.

The children will give up their clothes for the guest children.

In America, when one visits the home of a relative or friend.

 

It would be rare for the children to open the door. As they don’t give a damm about anyone, never mind the guests.

The children do not even offer water, tea and snacks to the parents. Giving to the guests is unthinkable.

The children do not help cook, period. Cooking for the guests in unthinkable.

The children do not sit with their parents for long. Sitting with the guests is unthinkable.

The children would not give up their bedroom, period. Giving up for the guests is unthinkable.

The children would not give up their bed, period. Giving up for the guests is unthinkable.

The children would not share clothes with their own brothers and sisters. Giving to the guest children is unthinkable.

 

The truth is, most parents in America are totally ignorant to the above facts, they don’t give a damm. They think that making their children into doctors is the most important and only goal of life. Cultural, religious, moral and social values are totally ignored. Very few parents preach these values to their children, and out of these few, most are actors.

 

 

1. Do you teach your children to be polite to friends and relatives who visit your home?

 

2. Do you teach your children to give water and food to guests who visit your home?

 

3. Do you teach your children to keep in contact with your friends and relatives?

 

4. Do you teach your children to socialize with guests?

 

5. Do you take your children to weddings, functions, bhajans, and the homes of friends and relatives?

 

 

Compassion is one of the qualities of a civilized human being. Ego and arrogance are the qualities of uncivilized human beings.

 

[I_love_krishna_]

I am growing up in the west...

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One of the children will most likely open the door.

The children will bring water and then tea and snacks.

The children will help cook for the guests.

The children will sit with the guests and talk.

The children will give up their bedroom for the guests.

The children will give up their bed for the guests.

------------------------

 

 

I gave up all those things from time to time. I also know many kids who do those things when we go visit them.

 

However, I did not do one thing... which is :

 

"The children will give up their clothes for the guest children."

 

 

 

[livingentity]

your family is from?

 

Actually, I think the author is being a little too hard on western parents and too lenient on eastern parents. There appears to be some prejudice there. I think you will find both ways in both the east and west.

[I_love_krishna_]

Though originally from India.

[Govindaram]

Hare Krishna

 

The children will bring water and then tea and snacks

 

Yeah right, a glass of water but tea and snacks, think thats taking it a bit too far, these Kids must be programmed Robots or something, or maybe they are just looking for some MONEY, you know what Im talking about /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[livingentity]

taught me to do that. It was not hot tea but iced tea and cookies. The first thing that was offered to our guests was a glass of water. This was in the late fifties and early sixties.

[Govindaram]

Hare Krishna

 

In India wherever you go they'll offer you some water and pakoras/somasas/chidwa etc, when I went I put on 2 stones!

 

Here in the west they 'ask' you if you want a glass of water/soft drink, THEN bring it to you, that is the main difference.

 

 

[Priitaa]

Interesting topic. I agree there are many benefits of children who grew up in the East. I was under the impression we were suppose to incorporate that mood with our children in ISKCON, but what began to happen was the result of greedy adults (not parents). Too many children born in the moevement have a sense of insecurity because they HAD to give up their room, their bed, nearly their presence or role in the home, had to give up TOO MUCH to the varoius adults, from sanyasis to other 'authorities.'

 

A child can only give away, when they have. Many devotee children in the movement all too often did not have. It became a matter of a sense of security for our kids. I came to the point where I would not "let" anyone take my childrens room or move in even for a day or two. I did that when they were little, but it soon began to take its toll. Because the children were never considered very important in our movement and even something/one to be neglected at best.

 

I think that article is more meant to be a comparrison to the nondevotee spoiled children in the West (which is not to say all children of the west are spoiled), than the gurukuli, IMHO anyway.

 

But it IS interesting and something we should strive for. Maybe the next generation? I dont know. My kid will give a drink and cookie/etc. to a visitor, would sit in the same room and talk to them or listen to what they had to say. And sometimes they will still give the shirt off their back.

 

However, overall I wonder when it is healthy and when it is a loss of boundaries from religious shame and guilt.

 

Slightly different topic, but I suspect the reason we 'ask' in the west if someone wants a drink or treat before giving it to them is because quite often the recipient actually doesn't want one! And then they feel they must eat it or the giver will get offended, and they do get offended.

[I_love_krishna_]

Well, my granddad came here and he was very happy to see people greet each other when going out and coming in...

 

He was very happy that Americans whom he did not know greeted him by saying "hello" or "how ya doin" just because he was walking by them.

 

Such things don't happen in India. they don't say "Hello" to you unless they know you.

 

And they don't smile at a stranger.

 

Why?-because it is just a different culture thats all.

 

It never happens because that is not the way they do things.

 

The same applies to children growing up here, many people hate their parents because they just push them in something they don't want to do.

 

The parents might be totally excited about the sanyasi or sadhu coming to their house but the kid doesn't care. because it is not something he/she likes.

 

Parents can't force their children... that will just turn their kids against them. Even though some parents think kids are their property... the children are individual living entities who were not created by their parents...

 

They have their own interests and learn different ways of treating people in different locations.

 

Some kids listen, some kids don't... still most parents.. especially Indian parents impose Indian morals on their kids...

 

Some kids listen and some don't.. and mostly the kids who listen are probably in touch with their past.

[livingentity]

I forgot to mention and I am not sure if it really makes any difference is that not only was I raised in what may be considered old fashioned methods but I was also raised in the deep south.

[Guest guest]

I very well agree with you. Children brought up in India are more pious and even religious minded out of which they have a moral basis in their life, while I see many arrogant children in US who has no respects for elders or anyone for that matter. Well, when parents themselves dont have much integrity towards each other, what can you expect in their children. I am sorry, not all the parents, but certainly a good number of parents do not have integrity and they themselves had weird life before marriage trying many things which is part of culture here. Its sad that many Indian kids too have no morals here especially the boys and the girls, sorry again to say, they are really scary sometimes the way they behave. IN general I certainly agree with you from my personal experience that kids in US are not much polite and have good morals (again not all, but a very large proportion)

 

[Guest guest]

That poor devotee child

who was born

to dysfunctional aspiring devotee parents

raised in the western culture

of sense enjoyment

it is all around us

especially

if living outside the temple

and not really part of the devotee community

of temple devotees

 

How can that poor devotee child possibly imbibe those wonderful saintly qualities

unless the parents are functional devotees

who can inculcate those devotional values

like respecting guests

when they come to the house,etc...?

[Guest guest]

 

That poor devotee child

who was born

to dysfunctional aspiring devotee parents

 

 

I am sure you meant well by your post, only I wanted to clear up I never said, nor meant to say, it was the parents who were dysfunctional. It was those they were expected to surrender to at the time that were dysfunctional. And it was the parents who gradually turned things around and straightened them out.

 

YS,

Prtha dd

[Guest guest]

 

How can that poor devotee child possibly imbibe those wonderful saintly qualities

unless the parents are functional devotees

who can inculcate those devotional values

like respecting guests

when they come to the house,etc...?

 

 

I had only skimmed your post when I made my first reply. Now I see you actually do think the parents were dysfunctional and it was their fault. While I will say each parent is an individual as is each family, what had a more poewrful effect was the nonsense devotee familes were expected to do! And this movement would not have pushed forward so fast if we weren't as surrendered as we were at the time. So parents surrendered to many maya nonsense demands of the authorities because we were taught to believe the authorities are always right, back in the day. You have no idea what the parents went thru either, so I humbly ask you not to judge the parents. Without their surrender, who knows who would be here now? How many temples would have actually been opened? And so on. The fault lay not on the shoulders of the parents, but on tohse of the various authorities they HAD to surrender to.

 

YS,

Prtha dd

[Guest guest]

"You have no idea what the parents went thru either, so I humbly ask you not to judge the parents"

 

the parents had the duty to care for their children first.....they're not free from faults!!

 

"Without their surrender, who knows who would be here now"

 

wich surrender?... not caring for children devotees is the biggest maya

 

" How many temples would have actually been opened?"

 

maybe more... and without the risk to be taken away by turley

 

.

 

the fault is 50% of the parents... 50% of the others (= authorities and who knows and was silent and happy)

[I_love_krishna_]

Why should they impose certain values on the kids if such things are not wanted by their children.

 

I think most of the values that parents impose on children are ridiculous. People can be pious with or with out showing respect to others.

 

In the west, kids show more respect than the kids in the east in some ways.

Kids in the east are just afraid of their parents.

 

In my view, forcing values on kids would be a bad step and if parents do that then 90% will be their fault.

 

[I_love_krishna_]

It is not wrong to feel that one's child should be courteous.

 

The parents should encourage their kids into following certain rules and regulations with guests. However, that does not mean the parent has to force the kid into giving up his/her room for the guest... that is just ridiculous.

 

According to the book "Keys to developing our child's self-esteem" by Dr. carl pickhard, "How children are treated has a lot to do with how they learn to treat themselves and to treat others in return. "

 

if the child feels he/she is important, then he/she will treat others with importance. Mostly little things mean alot to children... complimenting them on the little things would develop their self-esteem, thus making them give respect and show courtesy to others automatically.

 

 

[Priitaa]

 

the fault is 50% of the parents... 50% of the others (= authorities and who knows and was silent and happy)

 

 

No way. Mathematically it may sounds good, but were you there? Do you know what it was like to live under those times? How old are you? Do you have children yet? Nothing personal, but many of those devotees are my friends and I have heard from them repeatedly take the guilt (and shame!) on their head when I have to remind them they were 'surrendering,' and so it was not so much their fault. I am not letting parents off the hook totally, but if you know the real definition of surrender, you will understand how little choice or control they had left. -- And the last thing any of those parents need is to come here and read such a judgment about them.

 

[Guest guest]

i was there, i know very well all the pressures and fanaticisms

 

i appreciate your sentiment

 

but we are also philosophers and sadhu (= expert in disctinctions)

 

we learn from scriptures and srila prabhupada that if we follow rascal leaders or gurus the fault is the same .. who follow and who leads

 

ingenuousness is not innocence

 

 

we have scriptures who are depicting with great precision the features and behaviour of a devotee, and we have the example of srila prabhupada and many many other vaishnavas in west and east, past and present

 

so, if we follow the wrong persons because they have a label "ISKCON" printed on, we are responsible for us, for the family we have involved in this adventure, and for the bogus leaders who did need a big kick in the ass instead of dandavat obeisances

 

 

 

believe me, i dont want to appear so harsh... obviously i am against if anyone would say that laders have no faults!!

 

(thing that many have attempted to say... read some "farewell" letters of the poor little fallen gurus)

[Priitaa]

I am not speaking from sentiment at all, but fact.

 

You say you were there. When was that? What year and waht temple? Did you actually live ON temple property or come to Sunday Feasts? Or if you lived at the temple, were you a householder or a brahmacari? How many chlidren did you have in gurukula?

 

Being philosophical is not an excuse to be hardhearted, or heard headed for that matter. :-)

 

Do you know what its like to be told you must do yada yada or your child can't go to gurukula? Spouse can't eat? That if you dont do this or that, you will get kicked out and since we all renounced our parents (or close to it) we had no where to go?

 

I all ready understand that if we follow the wrong persons consequences will follow. But you are speaking from current days. Back then, and if you were there you should know this, NO ONE in a position of authoirty was considered a wrong person. That was instead considered an offense and sometimes you would even be ostricized for making such a statement. And then you had even more trouble with rent or food or gurukula bills, etc. What to speak of medical care.

 

Getting into the topic of guur's is something else and not the intent of this thread. They were not even guru's when all this nonsense took place. The various authorities who had positions of authority at the time, were. And they had a LOT of power. They were therefore unqualified autohrities because they misused that power.

 

The same applies to the topic you are brining up about the 'label' ISKCON. It was not what this thread was about. If you want to talk about that we can. I am not in ingorance and fully knowledgeable about these things. But my purpose here was very clear from the start. Lets not change the threads sbuject matter.

 

Even the adult children don't blame their parents, and so anyone who did not go thru it, should not place the blame there, or really, judge it in any way. Not that what happened was ok, it was not. Everyone knows that. But I can tell you are not a parent simply by the way you are responding. All parents were trying to get heard, being ignored, and the focal point was the children. But where to palce the blame is a whole other topic and only those who had children or were the children are qualified to speak. There are exceptions, but that is the general rule of thumb, especially over such an intense topic that effects large numbers of devotees on a deep and sensitive level.

 

 

[Guest guest]

You say you were there. When was that?

(80 - 89 in a big famous iskcon temple

were you a householder or a brahmacari? How many chlidren did you have in gurukula?

(first bramachary three years, then grihasta... two children in gurukula)

That if you dont do this or that, you will get kicked out

(yes, but if one remains it is not spiritual life, is for convenience... the duty of a father is to mantain the family, if he can't it is not fault of the temple president... a family has to live as a family, not as monks)

NO ONE in a position of authoirty was considered a wrong person

(it demonstrates that we are kanista adhikaris, the first qualification of a madyam is that he recognize who is a vaishnava and who is a materialist, so if we are not advanced is not other's fault)

And then you had even more trouble with rent or food or gurukula bills, etc. What to speak of medical care.

(the cure is to live outside and get a job)

And they had a LOT of power. They were therefore unqualified autohrities because they misused that power.

(they were unqualified... power or not power....and they were authorities because we gave them that power because we were in need of a bed, a prasadam plate and so on...so we had a material interest, giving so much troubles to us and them.. and to our children)

The same applies to the topic you are brining up about the 'label' ISKCON. It was not what this thread was about.

(nooo.. you brought this subject, read this : "Too many children born in the moevement have a sense of insecurity because they HAD to give up their room, their bed, nearly their presence or role in the home, had to give up TOO MUCH to the varoius adults, from sanyasis to other 'authorities.' "... i have simply said that fault is 50& authorities and 50% parents...... i have not anti iskcon arguments... put the same peoplein other organization and you will have the same problems... maybe more, we are protected by krsna)

Even the adult children don't blame their parents

(i am not too sure)

But I can tell you are not a parent simply by the way you are responding.

()

 

this subject is very simple... we say in our philosophy that bogus leader and bogus follower are two faces of the same coin... so, if we, following bad authorities and not following our grihasta dharma (live outside, geta a job etc) have not properly done our duty as parents... we surely have a big portion of the fault

 

be sure that i can do the same discussion with anyone saying that it is only parent's fault

 

[Bhaktavasya]

I would like to comment on the list of what the author of the article considers compassion which is actually cultural differences and ignorant assumptions.

 

1. opening a door for the guest.

In small towns where the doors are not locked (particularly in Canada and not the US because of the population and crime rate)often friends and relatives knock once then walk right in; "Hi, it's so and so" and the younger kids will most often rush to hug and embrace the relative or close friend of the parents. In America the knock could be a serial killer or salesperson so the parents will be the ones to see who is there and open or keep the door closed depending on who it is.

 

2. Refreshments are usually served by the adults as kids in the west often are in school or involved in after-school activities and it is not unheard of that the older children, if at home, will be asked to 'help set the table' or lend a hand in serving the guests.

 

3. Pot-lucks are popular in the West as usually both parents work. Western kids who are old enough do indeed help out with cooking though in both cultures it is still primarily the woman who is the main cook and clean-up person although it varies with relatives, guests and kids often helping out in that area if it's a big meal and not just tea and cookies.

 

3. Sitting and talking with guests and relatives:

In the West the move has been to not force kids to sit and pretend to be interested in hearing what EVERY guest or relative has to say. The way it usually spontaneously works is that the closer the relationship to the child that the visitor has, the more natural the conversation due to inquiry on the part of the grandmother, aunt, uncle, long-time good friend of the parent.

The guest could be a someone the child has met twice, from Mom's writing group, dropping by to give her some very important advise on 'story-booking' here manuscript. They'd hardly want a bunch of or even one kid hanging around 'politely' trying to get in on the discussion.

 

In East, tradition would have it that the sons and husbands would be all sitting in the same room as the author Mother, giving critique on 'what is the problem' with her novel and 'here's what to do' even from the 13 year old son. The West, for all it's flaws, at least has the Mom free enough to say "Everybody clear out; Reesa and I have important things we need to talk about...surely you have homework to do!" The even more liberated woman has her own office, den, to compose and receive guests for private conversations.

 

4. "The children will give up their beds and bedroom for the guest."

 

That statement is so uninformed to indicate that the author may have had a personal experience where he visited a Western household and expected to be given a bedroom, being 'representative' of the East, and had to sleep on the couch.

 

Speaking of which, the West either has extra bedrooms, 'guest' pull-out couches in the living-room (which most 'guests' in the West dont mind at all, grateful for even) with the always special exceptions for aging parents (who traditionally insist on taking the couch)and then it's the parents who give up their bedrooms, not the kids.

 

5. (In the East)"they will give up their clothes for the guest's children."

The author does sound as if he has just arrived in the West as a (invited?) guest at a home where he noticed everyone had too much and he perhaps needed a change of clothes and clothing for his children. I'm not trying to sound mean here, but maybe all he should've done was asked for some clothing? In the West it would be considered an insult to offer someone your clothing without being asked for charity, unless you were very close friends or relatives and you knew the person would appreciate it as a gift of love and not charity.

 

I just realized I'm 'debating' with a ghost because the author of the article is unnamed, unsourced, and unlikely to appreciate my perspective on East vs West culture and his definition of Compassion.

 

*********************

 

I read this thread through early this morning and when I got to the part about the 'parents' who were

SP disicples (not just guests visiting) being "'dysfunctional' 50% to blame for 'what happened to their children', they should've got jobs" and I actually put my hand to my cheek, it's the old 'slap in the face' again (but 'we parents' must be getting used to it).

No doubt some karma involved, our kids got a lot worse.

 

Maybe we shouldn't have read that first BTG.

Maybe it was Maya and not God who brought us to the temple.

Maybe we should have found jobs or stayed in school,

chanted at home and came to the Sunday feasts (unless you lived hundreds of miles as did many devotees).

Maybe we should've sent our kids to what SP called 'the slaughter-house schools', but that wouldn't be 'fully surrendering to the desire of our guru that they be educated in the gurukula.

Maybe, maybe, maybe. But we didn't. And we did, stay, as cooks, pujaris, cleaners, pot-washers and book distributors. The (cruel?) joke was on us. "Hari! 'He who takes everything away!' Bring it on!"

"Be thou happy by this Sacrifice (for the Age, the sankirtan movement)for it's performance will bestow upon you all desirable things" (Like a spiritual life and one for our kids, peace on earth, mass kirtans, ....we were such fools!)

Krishna must take some of the 'responsibility' too.

 

Maybe, and quite possibly, He has plans afoot for the movie production of "What Really Happened". As Priitaa said "You really had to be there." To know the story, that is.