M_Mehdi Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 Hare Krishna, "Lord Krishna is the Supreme Truth, the supreme cause and sustaining force of everything, both material and spiritual. Advanced souls surrender unto Him in devotion, whereas impious souls divert their minds to other objects of worship" i see the truth in the above quote... La Ilaha Illa Allah (there is no God, but God)... which simply states the same as above quote... would i be correct if i say that the devotees of Krishna believe in one God? peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 It is correct to say that the devotees of Krsna believe in one God and many gods (note lowercase 'g'). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 Absolutely yes. But we believe that this one GOD manifests in this material universe through forms(may be human or angelic or any form of his creation or forms not found in this creation) called avataras(means descent). All his descents or avataras do not possess material bodies like us human beings, although apparently Lord Krishna appears to have one. GOD's body is pure consciousness, bliss and knowledge. More than that we believe GOD is not someone sitting aloof in some throne in some heaven. He is all pervading(omnipresent), immutable, omniscient and omnipotent. Also HE has the most beautiful form. HE is the seat of all things beautiful and HOLY and HE is totally unaffected and FREE of all impurities. According to Upanishads, it is because of omnipresence of GOD that all things(living and non living) continue to exist, move, living things think, breathe, talk, feel or whatever. So GOD is called omnipotent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 yes. we believe that God is One in three aspects: bhagavan paramatma brahman Bhagavan, the Person, is the source of paramatma and brahman the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the one where all the personal features are at their maximum level of sat, cit , ananda, is Bhagavan Sri Krsna.. Isvarah (Lord) Paramah (Supreme) Krsna (is krsna) sat (full of eternity) cit (consciousness) ananda (bliss) vigraha (personal form) one personal god with infinite manifestations . . . . "La Ilaha Illa Allah (there is no God, but God)" there's some "negative" ways to define god, saying what god is not, from the material point of wiew for example Nirguna means that God has no qualities we say with more precision that God has not material qualities but He is full of spiritual ones (Guna Grahi) maybe the above description of Allah means that God is not a material concept... god exist, but this existence does not fall in the realm of matter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_love_krishna_ Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 KC people /Basic Hinduism... believes in one God. but then you might ask, who are all these other gods? The answer would be : Krishna can be worshipped in any form, because all forms are his. However, the worship has to have devotion. The basic point of worship is love toward God, which after gaining, there is no need of worship through the "disciplinary" means. Anyway, Krishna is the only master of this and many other universes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 " Krishna can be worshipped in any form, because all forms are his. However, the worship has to have devotion" the form of my computer or the shape of my car is not krsna the (demi)gods are part of the entourage of The Supreme Personality of Godhead, they are not God the manifestations of The Supreme Lord are described in details in the Vedic Scriptures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_love_krishna_ Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 "the form of my computer or the shape of my car is not krsna" Yes they are krishna. Krishna is the most highest thing among everything, the middle, and the most lowest. Just like he is the beginning, the middle and the end. Krishna is everything. He is everywhere and he is the one who controls everything. He did make laws like the law of Karma, but He is the one who exempts you from that law. He is in my computer, my words and in me... Just like he is in your computer, in your words and in you. He is in your best thoughts and he is in your worst thoughts... There he is! For more information, please read Bhagavath Gita and Bhagavatham. To see Krishna in everything is not bad, it is actually an act of bliss. /images/graemlins/smile.gif I salute to the Krishna who resides in you! /images/graemlins/grin.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 are non-different than the angels of Jewish, Christian ,and Muslim scriptures! THEY ALL answer to the One True God! i.e. Krsna...Allah...Yahweh!! Haribol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Mehdi Posted August 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 hare Krishna, thank you for the knowledge... allot of it seems to come down to semantics... part of the human condition... a code for us to figure out... at the same time... (speaking for myself) ... i find that one can end up have an attachment to words as one would to the material world... -------- i do understand the words of I_love_krishna however... that all is within the creation of God... aswell as within us... Quote by I_love_krishna: "To see Krishna in everything is not bad, it is actually an act of bliss. " i agree... this rules out duality... and starts the path into the One... ---------- Avinash , if i were to spell in the grammer of my original post... (and please know there is no disrespect at all in the following) 'there is no god but God... ' then would this statement be false in your view? instead of (what i originally posted) 'there is no God but God' again... please no disrespect to your views do i intend.. just a question of semantics that i'm wondering.... ------------------- yasoda nandana dasa, thank you for your knowledge... your answer of: Quote from yasoda nadana dasa: "yes. we believe that God is One in three aspects:" reminds me of trinity within the Christian faith... is it the same kind of view? -------------------------- and the post from Guest... thank you... this also makes sense.. that "THEY ALL answer to the One True God!" -------------- is it again semantics that create a division in unity? or is the division between all humans of faith in the One True Reality due to more than just semantics? ie. the nafs, ie. ego? peace be on you all... muhammad /images/graemlins/smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Mehdi Posted August 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2003 i see no one wanted to continue this conversation... i hope i did not say anything to offend anyone... and if i did please let me know so i do not do it again... my questions are sincere... and please know my intent here to learn... it is what i've learned so far... that brings me to these questions... peace /images/graemlins/smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2003 Report Share Posted August 18, 2003 If you find these gods by history you will NEVER find historical Krishna or Rama (The recent Excavation in ayothia was a greater failure!) but you will find Jesus, Mohammad but if you carefully examine the scriptures it was written clearly in bible than how god created the world and how a man became a sinner and what god did to cleanse the sinned man. Also the bible never supports the concept “Reincornation” which is most deceptive and encourages people to sin. All the teachings, which support reincorantion, were from evil. It tells the people that you can do what ever you want if you failed in this birth you will get another chance but bible warns Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. Moreover there was no God or Goddess who died for the sin of man, As you know we all sinners and need to be cleansed by the blood of holy to became sinless "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)" John 14:6 "Jesus said unto him, I am the Way, the Truth and the Life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." Romans 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord - Jesus Christ shall be saved." "Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned (Romans 5:12)" "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.(Romans 6:23) " "You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin (1 John 3:5)" It also warns the false God and Prophets Matthew 7:15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves" Basically there is no such religion called 'Hinduism', When Persians invaded India they named people who are all living south of the river "Sindhu' as 'Hindu' this concept was accepted by formar Kanchi Sankarachari (So the word Hindu is not a religion). Moreover Hinduism as a worship of created (Objects) than the creator (like worshipping fire, water, sun, moon. stars) . When an ancient man suffered by flood or,fire they were frightened and thought it would be stopped if they do some rituals and sacrifices to them that is where they started worshipping Fire, Water(These are all depicted as Gods in Hinduism) and created Idols for each, Satan Used these man made idols to cheat people. To be more clear all the ancient gods are created by man like this, The firts civilization was started in the beds of river Nile (NOT Sindhu) so the culture of Egyptian and Greeks are older than Hindus but today everybody accept the Greek & Egyptian gods as a myth so it applicable for Hindus too. Hope this helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted August 18, 2003 Report Share Posted August 18, 2003 You certainly did not offend anyone Muhammad. Sometimes there are so many new threads that others just a day old get pushed down or onto a past page and not seen. Also I wanted to say that this site contains a wide mix. There are Christians Muslims Hindus Buddhists all posting here, as well as Hare Krsna's. So don't think any one answer represents the whole board. As for me I am a part of the Hare Krsna laity. My Krsna conscious practice also includes worship of Christ. But what I have found in the basic Hare Krsna texts is much more advanced then what was in the Bible, so my study is focused on those works. I feel no contradiction. Their scriptures are very specific mono-theisism but with an understanding of oneness simultaneously intertwined. Very complete. They are a distinct group from polytheistic god worshippers that most people associate with the word Hinduism. Krsna consciousness appears to include the best from all the religious systems and yet much more. Be relaxed, settle in, and investigate this along with us. Hare Krsna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_love_krishna_ Posted August 18, 2003 Report Share Posted August 18, 2003 Firstof all, before making a statement about the existence of Rama and Krishna, please prove that history that we see today in our books is unaltered and it was as it is. If you can prove that, then I will completely agree with you and support your arguement that Rama and Krishna do not exist and the whole basis of hinduism which are the vedas are written after the birth of christ and mohammed. I will also help you find the very verses that talk about Christ and Mohammed (There should be verses because they were so popular and these were written after them right?) from the vedas. The truth is we can't prove it ever. The history as we see it today is not the whole truth. One simple example would be there are many men in History who have done alot of great things, but what about great women? You might argue that most of the women were subject to the patriarchial society in which most of them did not even have the right to have a proper education. I might agree with you on that, but still there were great women in the ancient as well as modern history of our world. No one in our history books talks about the great queen of the celtic tribes who fought the battle of londignum(Roman London) and basically won control. Why? because the history is altered by many people. The ancient history we see it today is not the truth, most of it is just propaganda. We even see the altered modern history in our own past. The so called bad guys in the movies concerned with Manifest destiny are always Native Americans. I have many more obvious examples of altered history. Anyway, the point I am trying to make here is that the history that we see today is not completely true, because it has been altered by many scholars. One main reason why they would alter history would be for three Gs- (Gold , God , Glory). So, to take the history as the ultimate reference in religious studies would be ridiculous. The evidence of Christ or Mohammed in history is as mysterious as the evidence of Rama or Krishna's existence in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2003 Report Share Posted August 18, 2003 ------------------- yasoda nandana dasa, thank you for your knowledge... your answer of: Quote from yasoda nadana dasa: "yes. we believe that God is One in three aspects:" reminds me of trinity within the Christian faith... is it the same kind of view? -------------------------- our spiritual master Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada interpretes the christian trinity in this way: father is God, krsna.... Son is his representative, the spiritual master, in that case jesus..... Holy Spirit god in the energetic, undifferentiated form it is a good and saint concept but it correspond only partially to the bhagavan, paramatma, brahman that i have mentioned bhagavan is god in his personal form , person means form, name, qualities, activities, world, entourage... if we say that god is allah, the "greatest" or krsna the "attractive" we are speaking of a person... of course not an ordinary one paramatma is an aspect of god who is following each creature in his journey in this material world... in christianity there is a similar concept with the "guardian angel", a representative of god who silently stay as a witness of our behaviour . But it is possible to re-link with him, the angel, or paramatma, to start to receive instructions for our spiritual welfare.. A nice parallelism with the SON concept is that we consider the spiritual master as a representative of the paramatma brahman is the energetic, undifferentiated aspect of god... it is not so difficult to understand that all the nature, the universe are pervaded of the god's energy and law.. all is done by the same component, the spirit, that we perceive sometime as matter due to our illusion every religion speaks of this omnipervadent aspect of the absolute truth, many religion say that this is the most prominent, like buddhism for example we, in sanatana dharma / krsna consciousness say that brahman is the effulgence of the body of krsna.. i.e. a product of the personal aspect and it is very easy to explain: i can enter in your house and know you by your impersonal / energetic aspect, i can observe the furniture, the books, the records, the pictures at the wall and have a vague idea, by this energy you have spent in decorating the house, of who are you... but if you arrive personally, i see you, you speak to me, we exchange questions and answers, we do something together, there's no doubt that this is the most important and complete aspect and the source of the "impersonal" one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted August 18, 2003 Report Share Posted August 18, 2003 i am the responsible of this mad answer!!! :-) hare krishna to everyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raguraman Posted August 19, 2003 Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 Hare Krishna, thank you for the knowledge... allot of it seems to come down to semantics... part of the human condition... a code for us to figure out... at the same time... (speaking for myself) ... i find that one can end up have an attachment to words as one would to the material world... Dear Sir, We do not see many mature people like you from other religions post here. Please often come to this site here. I am really very interested to hear Islamic concepts of God also. As for the words and getting attached to it, there is always fixation of some kind. Sometimes we do not even recognize it. I know only words and not the BEING(GOD). I am not even qualified to speak on this arena. That is why we have something called YOGA, a technique or procedure to know GOD just as you know your father or mother etc. If you are interested you should contact qualified people immersed in such things. -------- i do understand the words of I_love_krishna however... that all is within the creation of God... aswell as within us... This is what Isavasya Upanishad tells exactly. May GOD bring people like you here instead of hit and run religious missionaries. The Isavasya Upanisad http://www.dvaita.org/sources/shruti/translation.html tadejati tannaijati taddure tadvantike | tadantarasya sarvasya tadu sarvasya bahyatah 5 tad = tasmat = from him; ejati = bibheti = tremble (in awe or stupefaction); tat = He, Himself; na = (does) not; dure = far off; tadu = tadeva = He alone; antike = near, close by; antah = within, inside of; asya = of this; sarvasya = of all; bahyatah = outside of. He causes all to tremble or quake in fear of Him, but He Himself fears none (for being independent); He is very far off (He exists even at infinite distances), and He is also very close by (because He is omnipresent); He is within everyone and everything, and also outside everyone and everything (His presence is all-pervasive). It has been said that Hari is all-pervasive, the controller of all, and all-powerful. Now, the use of knowing this is clarified -- yastu sarvani bhutanyatmanyevanupasyati | sarvabhutesu catmanam tato na vijugupsate 6 yah = (he) who; tu = but, indeed; sarvani = all; bhutani = beings, creatures, objects, atmani = in the Supreme Being; eva = only; anupasyati = excellently beholds, clearly understands; sarva bhutesu = in all beings; ca = and; atmanam = the Lord, the Ruler of the innermost self; tatah = thus, therefore, by reason of; na = (does) not; vijugupsate = wish to hide or seek concealment. One who sees all animate and inanimate nature in the Supreme (for He exists outside them and is their support), and also sees the Supreme in all of them (for He exists in them, and is their controller from within), by this reason, he becomes free of fear and does not ever need to seek concealment. One who perceives Sri Hari as being the sole independent entity and the motivator of all, has no fear of anyone, since he knows that all power belongs to the Lord only, not to any other. Verse 5 has already expressed the idea that the Supreme is omnipresent; the repetition of the same notion here is for the purpose of explaining the significance of such omnipresence (why it is important to understand it). The same notion is further clarified -- yasminsarvani bhutanyatmaivabhudvijanatah | tatra ko mohah kah soka ekatvamanupasyatah 7 yasmin = in whom; sarvani = all; bhutani = beings [exist], the word tisthanti being implied here; atma = the Supreme Being; eva = only; abhut = present, exists within; vijanatah = who understands this very well (the prefix vi signifying visesena, ``specially'' is added to janatah, ``who knows,'' the purport being that the Lord is understood as special as compared with the individual, or that He is very well understood); tatra = in that person; kah = what; mohah = delusion; sokah = sorrow; ekatvam = identity (of the Lord existing in any one being and Him existing in all others); anupasyatah = perceives well. For one who clearly understands that all beings exist in the Supreme, and that He exists within all of them (as their controller), and who thus sees the unity of the Lord as existing (without change) everywhere, what could possibly cause delusion, or sorrow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Mehdi Posted August 20, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 Hare Krishna, thank you all for taking the time to converse... theist /images/graemlins/smile.gif thank you for your kind words... you said: --------- Quote from theist: "My Krsna conscious practice also includes worship of Christ. " --------- what do you mean by worship? or is this part semantics... or the simple recognition of Jesus(pboh) as a master (spritual teacher)? yasoda nandana dasa, thank you, i have a better understanding of the concept not only Krishna consienceness also of what the Christians try to convery with the trinty ... the post by Raguraman is very significant to me... all the Raguraman says is about the One God... Raguraman, thank you for your kind words... may peace be on you... i see the truth in your post... if i can be of help to answer any questions you have about Islam i will be more than glad to share with you what i've learned so far in my journey /images/graemlins/smile.gif ... thank you all... and may peace be on you... you have help me understand that the devotees of Krishna consienceness are believers in one God... the same as Muslims.... Jews, Christians, and countless other sects and schools of sprituality... Hare Krishna muhammad /images/graemlins/smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govindaram Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 Hare Krishna by M Mehdi: You have help me understand that the devotees of Krishna Consciousness are believers in one God. You are right, all glories to you prabhuji! /images/graemlins/grin.gif Now pass this message on to anyone who says otherwise! ------- <font color="red"> nitai-gauranga, nitai-gauranga </font color> <font color="red"> jayasacinandana, gaura-hari </font color> <font color="blue"> All glories to Lord Nityananda and Lord Caitanya! </font color> <font color="blue"> the son of Saci-devi, who is Krsna Himself in golden hue. </font color> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 M: >>what do you mean by worship? or is this part semantics... or the simple recognition of Jesus(pboh) as a master (spritual teacher)?<< Yes I recognise him as that but with me it is more personal. I pray to Christ for mercy. I chant his name with Krsna's. Jaya Jaya Yoshua, Jaya Jaya Krsna. Jaya means like 'all glories to'. I worship the loving relationship between Christ and Krsna. I have found that the Krsna consciousness that is written about in Swami Prabhupada's books is far wider than most devotees will admit too. Or they may say something as a tool just to further get you into Krsna consciousness, expecting at some point that you will drop your attachment to, in my case, Christ. Or they expect some Hindu's who become devotees to give up worshiping Lord Shiva. But this is not what Swami Prabhupada taught. It is not about changing religious affiliation but rather about changing our consciousness to one where we recognize God's presence 24 hrs. a day in our lives here and now. And loving Him with all our heart, mind and soul. His books contain just incredible and vast knowledge of God that I could find in the Bible. So while still accepting the truth that is in the Bible(not all of it qualifies)I have chosen to learn more. My continued growth is in line with Lord Jesus's desire for me. So there is no conflict. Although Christians don't accept it and many if not most devotees think my attachment is just some sentiment from the past, I don't care for their opinions and try to move on towards God in the way that is best suited for me. Hare Krsna Muhammad (I like the sound of that /images/graemlins/smile.gif ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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