Problem with 4 Principles

[Govindaram]

Hare Krishna

 

I have been living by the 4 regulative priciples strictly for about a week now (please no lol's), and I am finding that my mind is rebelling against me more, than before!

 

This is a very serious matter for me so....

 

Could I please have some advice from Bhakta's/Matas, on this matter, any tips, experiences, what to look for?

 

Thanks....Haribol!

[Guest guest]

we have no other medicine.... chant hare krsna

 

(principle number 3?)

[Govindaram]

Hare Krishna

 

I have no Diksa guru, so that is my main problem, but in the mean time, I would like to become little qualified, I hope Bhakta/Mata's can help, if not then I'll just do what I'm doing. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[I_love_krishna_]

The mind does rebel alot , but it is important for us to not to give in to the desires and cravings of the mind which do not abide by the four principals.

 

When I started following the four principals, I had my mind rebel the most for like a month, but I did not give in. The desire vanished when it could not hold on to me.

 

 

 

[Govindaram]

Hare Krishna

 

I am finding the extent of my impurity, when I live by the 4 principles, it's like oh just forget it, but you have to live by them otherwise, you can't make progress.

[I_love_krishna_]

Yes , it is not possible to transcend this material existence with out following the four regalative principles, but if we fail to follow them, we go into depression.

[theist]

Welcome to the struggle. We are helpless. We only have the strength of the Holy Name to protect us and strengthen us.

 

Don't think an intiation ceremony will put an end to the struggle. We need to get a strong taste for the Holy Name.

 

Why don't we beg Lord Caitanya for a real taste of nectar? I am too proud, stubborn and faithless. So I must struggle and fight with the mind.

 

We have heard the story of the disciple who asked the master what he must do to become enlightened. the master takes him to the river and pushes him down and holding his head under water. Finnaly letting him up the disciple comes up gasping for for air.

 

The master tells the disciple that when he wants the truth as much as he wanted his next breath he will get enlightenment.

 

That is the minimum desire we must cultivate. That is where mostof us are. Trying to get a desire to desire...

 

Actually Krsna bhakti is far more valuable then our next breath. But we aren't convinced. We think there is life without love for Krsna. This is our mistake. To love krsna IS life.

 

Existing without Krsna bhakti is like zombie life. We materialist are the living dead.

 

We must rise up from this dead condition and regain life. In other words we must be resurrected.

[Govindaram]

Hare Krishna

 

By Theist

Why don't we beg Lord Caitanya for a real taste of nectar?

 

I seem to find it easier to ask/beg Sri Radha for help, because she is after all the supreme mother (jai)

 

I find asking Lord Nityananda for help easy as well, but Lord Caitanya I'm a little wary of because of that incident with that devotee who was looking lustfuly at a women, and Mahaprabhu banished him, I don't know that preys on my mind a lot. I guess I don't know or cannot realise the mercy of Lord Caitanya yet, but I would like to ask, how should we look upon Lord Caitanya & His 4 Associates, like when you say Prem Sa Kaho Sri Krishna etc..how do you look upon Mahaprabhu, could someone please elaborate (as in no one word answers like oh just chant Hare-Krishna, please leave that to Utama-Adikari devotees like Srila Prabhupada, if u know what I mean, I mean I know to just chant Hare-Krishna, but without HELP from Lord Caitanya/Lord Nityananda, theres no hope.

 

 

 

 

-------

<font color="red"> nitai-gauranga, nitai-gauranga </font color>

<font color="red"> jayasacinandana, gaura-hari </font color>

 

<font color="blue"> All glories to Lord Nityananda and Lord Caitanya!

</font color> <font color="blue"> the son of Saci-devi, who is Krsna Himself in golden hue.

</font color>

 

 

[theist]

Yes beg from Radha or/and Nityananda. But we must become beggars for the name. We must develop intense one pointed desire. Patient determination seems to be a valuable key.

 

You are not Junior Haridas. You are not in the renounced order.

 

But there is the example of the animals in the Jarakhanda forest that danced and chanted under the inspiration of Lord Caitanya. There is also the example of Sivanada Sena's dog to give us inspiration and hope. We shouldn't try to approach the Lord on the strength of our qualifications. Our fallen nature is the only qualification that most of us can claim.

 

But then who but the guilty have a need to seek mercy?

[I_love_krishna_]

We have heard the story of the disciple who asked the master what he must do to become enlightened. the master takes him to the river and pushes him down and holding his head under water. Finnaly letting him up the disciple comes up gasping for for air.

 

The master tells the disciple that when he wants the truth as much as he wanted his next breath he will get enlightenment.

===========================================================

 

Can I put this as my signature, your words make me happy /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[theist]

you can use the words as you like. I didn't invent it, only paraphrased a bit. It has been around in slightly different forms for a long long time.

[yasodanandana]

"Hare Krishna

I have no Diksa guru, so that is my main problem"

 

you are very sincere... my humble advice is to pray krsna and to keep ears and eyes open looking for a spiritual master..

 

obviously is most important to avoid to break the principles who are about the life of others and violence... so do not eat meat, fish and eggs

 

and it is to consider that intoxicants are very bad for the mental and phisical health

 

but if you search and find a pure vaishnava guru he will give you the indication of the EXACT path to go back to godhead

 

maybe it is a paradox, but the emphasis is on "following...", not on the principles

 

chant hare krishna and do not be sad, i read all your messages... in my opinion you are a sincere soul and a devotee

[Govindaram]

Hare Krishna

 

By Yashodanandana

In my opinion you are a sincere soul and a devotee

 

You are very humble to say that /images/graemlins/smile.gif

In my own opinion I am a complete fool.

 

Anyway, my ears/eyes are always open for signs, I hope when I get them I can read them well.

I_L_K you are right about getting depressed (sort of) at first, I have found that, although Krishna <font color="red"> made me </font color> give-up the dreaded cigarettes and alcohol, thanks my Lord.. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[mahak]

Rules and regs, ya say. Some talk about prabhupada being a lawgiver.

 

Nonsense. He had requirements for accepting formally one who wished initiation, and these are called the four regulative principles. Rupa Goswami also lists hundreds of things that forcible regulate a neophyte in the sadhanna bhakti, and these things are not minimised here.

 

However, Rupa Goswami also states that all the rules and laws are for one purpose, and one law replaced (both sides of the coin are mentioned as well). Always remember and never forget Krsna.

 

So, like Srila Prabhupada personally encouraged me when I admitted my inability to follow way back when, lamenting ability to keep the covenant between guru and disciple is a way of remembering Krsna, and is devotional service in its own way. It is not vanity that causes one to lament, unless temple life and expulsion because laws are broken is the motive.

 

Pick it up, do better starting now, and understand that even ones advancement in Krsna Consciousness is not the property of the devotee. Krsna controls the senses, if we think we control our senses, we will fall, this is false reninciation.

 

Hope ya get my drift, im being chased away from this computer, so hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Govindaram]

Hare Krishna

 

Yes, you know even Kamsa thought of Krishna, ok he was not in the mode of Bhakti, but still, we have to find a way where we can think of Krishna all the time, also that story about the Govardana Robber is inspiring as well, also associating with Vaisnava's is non-different to Krishna, so if you think of Srila Prabhupada/or your spiritual master, then it is the same as thinking of Krishna, this is something which I tend to forget (a lot).

 

 

[gHari]

Over and over.

 

Devotees in crazy environments have to be strong like volcanoes. That is our MadMax, scraping barnacles off the nuclear subs' bellies surrounded by heehaw redneck fire-eating mothers.

 

Put Krsna in charge of your recovery. He's been known to perform miracles. Even that little sparrow saved its eggs from the ocean in Bhagavad-gita 6.24:<blockquote><center><font color="red">sa nizcayena yoktavyo

yogo 'nirviNNa-cetasA

saGkalpa-prabhavAn kAmAMs

tyaktvA sarvAn azeSataH

manasaivendriya-grAmaM

viniyamya samantataH

</center>

saH--that; nizcayena--with firm determination; yoktavyaH--must be practiced; yogaH--yoga system; anirviNNa-cetasA--without deviation; saGkalpa--mental speculations; prabhavAn--born of; kAmAn--material desires; tyaktvA--giving up; sarvAn--all; azeSataH--completely; manasA--by the mind; eva--certainly; indriya-grAmam--the full set of senses; viniyamya--regulating; samantataH--from all sides.

</font>

One should engage oneself in the practice of yoga with determination and faith and not be deviated from the path. One should abandon, without exception, all material desires born of mental speculation and thus control all the senses on all sides by the mind.

 

PURPORT

The yoga practitioner should be determined and should patiently prosecute the practice without deviation. One should be sure of success at the end and pursue this course with great perseverance, not becoming discouraged if there is any delay in the attainment of success. Success is sure for the rigid practitioner. Regarding bhakti-yoga, RUpa GosvAmI says:

<center><font color="red">

utsAhAn nizcayAd dhairyAt

tat-tat-karma-pravartanAt

saGga-tyAgAt sato vRtteH

SaDbhir bhaktiH prasidhyati

</center></font>

"One can execute the process of bhakti-yoga successfully with full-hearted enthusiasm, perseverance, and determination, by following the prescribed duties in the association of devotees and by engaging completely in activities of goodness." (UpadezAmRta 3)

 

As for determination, one should follow the example of the sparrow who lost her eggs in the waves of the ocean. A sparrow laid her eggs on the shore of the ocean, but the big ocean carried away the eggs on its waves. The sparrow became very upset and asked the ocean to return her eggs. The ocean did not even consider her appeal. So the sparrow decided to dry up the ocean. She began to pick out the water in her small beak, and everyone laughed at her for her impossible determination. The news of her activity spread, and at last GaruDa, the gigantic bird carrier of Lord ViSNu, heard it. He became compassionate toward his small sister bird, and so he came to see the sparrow. GaruDa was very pleased by the determination of the small sparrow, and he promised to help. Thus GaruDa at once asked the ocean to return her eggs lest he himself take up the work of the sparrow. The ocean was frightened at this, and returned the eggs. Thus the sparrow became happy by the grace of GaruDa.

 

Similarly, the practice of yoga, especially bhakti-yoga in KRSNa consciousness, may appear to be a very difficult job. But if anyone follows the principles with great determination, the Lord will surely help, for God helps those who help themselves.

</blockquote>

gHari

[Guest guest]

 

 

Hare Krishna,

 

I think the following excerpt by Srila Prabhupada is very nice as it explains maya's business :

 

If one takes to Krsna consciousness, in the beginning there will be many disturbances caused by Maya;, the material energy of illusion. Maya will test us to see how firmly we are fixed in Krsna consciousness. Because she is also an agent of Krsna, she does not allow anyone the freedom to disturb Krsna. Therefore she tests very rigidly to see whether we have taken to Krsna consciousness to disturb Krsna or are actually serious. That is Maya's business. So in the beginning there will be tests by Maya and we shall feel so many disturbances while making progress in Krsna consciousness. But if we follow the rules and regulations and chant regularly as prescribed, then we shall remain steady. If we neglect these principles, Maya will capture us immediately. Maya is always ready. We are in the ocean, and at any moment we may be disturbed. Therefore one who is not disturbed at all is called paramahamasa.

 

---- Teachings of Queen Kunti, Ch.3 page 8

[Govindaram]

Hare Krishna

 

I just read that again, it makes great sense,

 

Maya is in Lord Krishna's service, so why should't she be picky!

 

Make's me want to try more for Krishna's mercy.. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Guest guest]

it is not the problem with the principles, but with us individuals who follow it.

 

bhakti is easy and not easy.

some will power may be required.

 

there is a bhajan line that translates to this:

 

"the path to hari is for the brabves, not for cowards.

first you wage your head, and then chant hari's name."

 

jai sri krishna!

 

 

 

[mahak]

Haribol, never is bhakti easy, yet it is very simple. This is not semantics, this is reality.

 

Lets take the four regulative principles, frinstance. Some may think that all they do is smoke dope, so surmise that 75% of the standard is followed, a passing grade in any professors class. Wrong, if one has made the commitment to guru, and is bound by the reciporocal contract of the guru disciple relationship in a formal sense, then 99% is failure, not unlike the quality control program with nuclear submarines. In fact, there is only ONE law given at the time of initiation, that one follow the principles and chant the prescribed number of rounds.

 

That said, failure and success in anything one does is offered in a spirit of love to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga. Failure is not the deal, nor is success. Many have become overly puffed up because they follow the four regs and chant the 16, but they have no progress, the whole thing has become quite mechanical. Whereas, some who by misfortune have overwhelming odds against them by past habits that cannot be broken have great Krsna Consciousness because they truely REGRET their imperfection and in full surrender, know for certain that they are lower than the straw in the street.

 

This is not unlike a teaching of Lord Jesus Christ (I reserve the right to utilize his glorious nectar of instruction despite my seeming harshness against christianity on another topic). He cites the pharasee who gives gold coins profusely at the temple in front of everyone, and the comparison of devotion of the old lady who privately drops one penny in the box. Jesus says the rich man gives nothing because the gold he gives is a minimal fraction of what he has, whereas the old lady's penny is all she has, her devotion is great while the pharasee just wants selfish recognition as a holy man.

 

Those who struggle with the principles have the struggle itself as pure devotional service, the ones who have no problems with such may not have the blessings in equal proportion, despite their apparent purity.

 

It is never easy, but it is simple. Krsna does not care for leaves, fruit, grains, water or anything else one has to offer, he is self sufficient. But the Love one gives Him, He becomes the servant of one possessing such love, this is the simple bhakti yoga, no matter what form it may take.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

PS I am informed that the Dharma Mela may soon be on line again, with a new and improved Harekrsna.com. Ill go there, but Ill stay here as well, for JNdas runs a great show.

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

Why can't we get rid of those anarthas

(unwanted things in the heart)

so that we get love of God?

 

If they are indeed unwanted,

not needed and superflous:

why do we hold on to them as dear as life instead of just dumping them into the trash bin?

 

Instead we store these nasty little anarthas

in the most valuable place possible

-- in our heart and minds.

 

No use just giving up only the external

or gross anartha like sex desire

but all the while keeping alive the subtle desire

for material distinction and admiration.

How infinitely more difficult it is to give up this insidious viral disease called pratishta.

 

 

------gopaldas

[Guest guest]

 

 

Nice point Prabhu.

 

Quote:

------------------

 

In fact, there is only ONE law given at the time of initiation, that one follow the principles and chant the prescribed number of rounds

 

------------------

 

 

INITIATION LECTURE

 

Suppose if you have committed some wrong thing within our jurisdiction and you come to me, “Swamiji, I have committed this.” So I say, “All right. Don’t do it again. Excused.” Now, second day you come again. You say, “I have committed this.” All right. Second day I can also excuse. The third day also, I can excuse, but fourth day I’ll not excuse. Don’t make it official business. Just like you go to the church every week and confess your sinful activities before Lord Jesus Christ or his representative, surely your sinful activities are squared up. But does it mean that every week, the whole week you shall commit sinful activities, and at the end of the week you shall go and confess? Does it look very well? You are not ashamed that “Every week I commit these sinful activities, and on the seventh day I confess”? This process should not be adopted,

 

God’s name, God’s remembrance actually squares up all of our sinful activities. That’s a fact. But how it is that we shall go on committing sinful activities and square it up by chanting Hare Krsna or by confessing? No. This is a particular point one should carefully note. Jagai-Madhai were the greatest sinful men during Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s time. When they surrendered to Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu with confession, “My Lord, we have committed so many sinful activities. Please save us,” Caitanya Mahaprabhu said “Yes, I will accept you and I’ll save you, provided you promise that no more you shall commit such sinful activities.” So they agreed. Then Caitanya Mahaprabhu accepted them and they became great devotee and their life was successful. The same process is here also. This initiation means that everyone should remember that whatever sinful activities one might have done in his past life, that account is now closed. Debit and credit closed. Now, from this day, no more sinful activities. What are those sinful activities? That is simple. We have mentioned. You should take it note. No illicit sex life. Beyond marriage, there is no sex life. No intoxication. Even drinking tea, coffee, they are also intoxication—cigarette smoking. No intoxication. No meat-eating. Simple. Only Krsna prasadam. If you remain in the temple you will get Krsna prasadam, and if not, outside you prepare your chapatti, dahl, offer to Krsna and take. Don’t take anything except Krsna prasada. The third... And no gambling or unnecessary sporting. People are wasting time. So many sportings they have invented—sporting balls, this ball, that ball. You see? Human life is very short. We do not know when we shall die. Before that, we must prepare ourselves for the next life. Next life means directly going back to Krsna, highest perfection.

 

Krsna consciousness means we are preparing living entities for directly going back to the Krsna planet, the highest perfection. So this is the opportunity. You have got a human form of life. Now you have got our association. You have got all the information from the Bhagavad-gita. Utilize all these facilities and go directly to Krsna. Initiation means the beginning of that perfection.

 

(Lecture by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Dec. 19,1968)

 

Srila Prabhupada, you have performed the greatest miracle. It is not that you are just healing the sick or giving bread to the hungry. No, by your association alone, you are changing our very hearts. Just as Narada Muni once turned the coarse, sinful hunter, Mrgrari, into a great Vaisnava, so you have picked up thieves, drug addicts, and worse and made them flower-like, bright faced, dancing devotees of Krsna. We pray to your unlimited compassionate nature that you will ask Lord Krsna to accept us as surrendered souls and protect us from Maya's dangerous clutches. (Vyasa Puja Book 1973, p.131)

 

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Rupa Goswami Prabhupada

 

 

 

O my Lord, there is no limit to the unwanted

orders of lusty desires.

Although I have

rendered these desires so much service,

they

have not shown any mercy to me.

I have not

been ashamed to serve them,

nor have I even

desired to give them up.

However, O my Lord,

O master of the Yadu dynasty,

recently my

intelligence has been awakened,

and now I

am giving them up. Due to transcendental

intelligence,

I now refuse to obey the

unwanted orders of these desires,

and I now

come to You to surrender myself at Your

fearless lotus feet.

Kindly engage me in Your

personal service and save me.

 

— Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 3.2.35,

quoted in Cc. madhya 22.16.

[moorthi]

I think the following routine would help you steady

your mind.

 

1) Do achamana and make your mind an body pure(bathing or if that's not possible, washing your hands, feet and face)

 

2) Do japa of the holy Gayatri mantra 108 times with intense feeling for the wellbeing of the whole world and a seeking for divine knowledge.

[Govindaram]

Hare Krishna

 

I used to chant the Gayatri Mantra when I was younger, but stopped for some reason, I don't have sacred thread, so I can't chant, I have chanted Hanuman Chalisa since I was young, and prayed to Lord Rama and Krishna..

 

I have to say though ever since I have been praying more, over about 5 years, 2 years Hare-Krishna, I have become more weak, not so happy, before I was working in a Casino about 8 months and was happy etc, so becoming Krishna devotee is not easy AT ALL, many hardships but once you chant Hare-Krishna, u can't stop, like that pringles crisps advert on TV (LOL) ...

 

Once you chant Hare-Krishna u just can't Stop!

 

Ps In no way am I saying I am a Vaisnava, but I aspire to be, Radhe Radhe.