Free will?

[I_love_krishna_]

Mahak from another post here said :

 

"Understand that even ones advancement in Krsna Consciousness is not the property of the devotee. Krsna controls the senses, if we think we control our senses, we will fall, this is false reninciation."

 

So, if we are never in the control of our senses, then where is free will? How can we fall into ignorance when we cannot control our senses in the first place.

 

So, As I post this post from my computer, Is it being controlled by krishna , then am I asking this question because krishna made me to ask?

 

So, are we like robots basically being controlled by an entity whom we don't know as the controller all along?

Is this the cause of our suffering? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

So, is free will just imaginary? please help /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Govindaram]

Hare Krishna

 

Lord Krsna is the controller of the senses, they belong to Him,

 

When our Mind is controlled, the sense are dovetailed in the service of Krsna,

 

Thats what I know on the subject /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

<font color="red"> HARE </font color> <font color="orange"> KRISHNA </font color> <font color="red"> HARE </font color> <font color="orange"> KRISHNA KRISHNA KRISHNA </font color> <font color="red"> HARE HARE

</font color> <font color="red"> HARE </font color> <font color="blue">RAMA </font color> <font color="red"> HARE </font color> <font color="blue"> RAMA RAMA RAMA </font color> <font color="red"> HARE HARE </font color>

 

 

[M_Mehdi]

a wise man once said... the pure determinists claim that everything about the creatures... their movements and their moments of rest... their thoughts and their words... their behaviour and their destinies, whether for good or for evil... for their advantage or for their misfortune... depends totally on the divine Will or some blind fate... for them the individual human being has no in determining his or her destiny....

 

the proponents of radical free will on the other hand... make everything depend entrirely on each creature's own will and explain evberything on that light.... they say that God created human beings and then gave them reason and the power to choose freely in such a way that the divine Will no longer plays any role in their destiny....

 

The advocates of the middle position say that each person is repnisible for their own action to the extent that God has endowed human beings with the will to choose and the power and freedom to act... to distinguish between good and evil... in order to gain what is beneficial and avoid what is harmful... but as soon as events go beyond the realm of what is within human control... each person's destiny is in Gods hands... For example.. if someone has taken the trouble to build a very solid house that is then destroyed by an earthquake... that earthquake is then goes beyond the domain of that individuals own power... but if someone is living in a dilapidated old house and fails to do any repairs... so that the roof falls in... then that person ... 'is' responisble for the accident that happens to them....

 

we have limited free will...

 

peace...

 

[Govindaram]

Hare Krishna

 

Thats really good, what you wrote M_Mehdi..

 

God put us here because we desired to enjoy apart from Him,

so if we use our free will givin to us we can go back,

 

I think this:

 

We are presently serving our own Minds, doing this, that & the other, so when God takes control of your Mind (when you let Him, fully!), then we are in our rightful position, then he can direct you, but you still keep your own individuality (personal fav food-mine's pizza).

 

I'd like to know more about the above if somebody can provide some info...Haribol!

[yasodanandana]

prabhupada says that in this material world we have the same freedom of a leashed dog (is it english language or i have something wrong in my brain?......

 

master + lead + dog, not a big moving freedom, but a very little one)

 

the free will starts when we choose to serve krsna (=no limits) instead of maya (=limits)

 

see how much freedom from material limits had prabhupada.. an old single man (from a material point of view), with few rupies, no house and supporters.. but unlimited faith in guru and gauranga....

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

we have limited free will...

 

peace...

 

 

I have to say I am very very impressed by your comments.

 

Free will(to wish for anything) is there for human beings, but we do not get whatever we wish. The Giver of results of the works is GOD, as said in Bhagavad Gita.

 

Free Will, ie the freedom to to wish for anything, and what we actually gain should not be confused.

[Guest guest]

we the souls are separete from supersoul or krishna.

krishna's one energy is prakriti

(mayAdhyksheNa prakriti sUyat sachrAcharam..)

 

krishna loves us all and has give us free will.

 

becaue of our body however,

we are heavily influenced by maya - the modes of nature.

and our senses and mind, intelligience and ego are not perfect for going to god.

 

krishna in gita says us how to overcome maya.

(mAmeva ye prapadyanta

mAyAmetAm taranti te)

 

we have free will to choose krishna's this advice.

if we do not, then we suffer in material world.

 

we can freely choose to be really stupid and not listen to krishna.

 

Now the other view point:

many say they have freedom, but actually they aave not.

 

at home one many times one follows his wife, parent, or even children. at job one follows the boss.

other times one may follow a guru.

on the road one follows the street lights.

 

so this sense of freedom is an illusion - maya.

 

in US many think they own their home.

most time the reality is that the lender is the owner,

and one is slave to the house - keeping it in good condition.

 

so, the real question is to whom one should submit- surrender? the options availabe are:

 

- any ordinary human or a qualified guru

- any ordinary book or bhagavad gita

- any idea that comes is mind after eating meat and wine,

or what is said in gita, reading it after living sin-free and in satvic mood.

 

that is all free will.

 

jai sri krishna!

yes, i am madhva.

 

[xxvvii]

What does free will suggest? The disaccord between an owner & a slave. If the slave does as the owner's command, the slave maybe disobeys his own will. Conversely, he maybe disobeys the owner's will if he does as his free will. Therefore striving for more freedom would not shorten the distance between 2 sides. Freedom is the means than the goal. Only through trial & error with the free will, you can reach true freedom - the accord neither free nor non-free.

[I_love_krishna_]

The presence of free will should mean that the freedom is achieved.

 

Prabhu, freedom is like the river, free will is the water. The freedom consists of free will. When I say free will , I say free will from the side of the slave, not the master.

 

Because, the master(krishna) always has free will. It is the slave, who wants free will to reach the master.

 

It is a granted fact that the free will is there for the master, but I guess it does not really exist for me, because it depends on how much of my life is controlled by the superior being.

 

If i do everything for the superior being and nothing to myself then I guess there is no free will. Now i see that that could be actually a good thing /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

but the thing that pains me is that the slave has no free will at all. If the statements made by Mahak prabhu are valid, then that would mean that my advancement into KC only depends on Krishna's mercy and not my own decisions.

 

So, if I decide to serve krishna , I may not be able to , because it only depends on krishna and if krishna does not need me there is no point in him calling me... that was the whole exact thing that made it confusing.

 

That is, if there is no free will on how to serve krishna, then it is really a depressing situation to be in.

 

 

[Guest guest]

From Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

Saranagati Bhajan

 

 

 

 

(4) tumi sarbeswareswara brajendra-kumara!

tomara icchaya biswe srjana samhara

 

taba iccha-mato brahma karena srjana

taba iccha-mato visnu karena palana

 

taba iccha-mate siba karena samhara

taba iccha-mate maya srje karagara

 

taba iccha-mate jiber janama-marana

samriddhi-nipate duhkha sukha-samghatana

 

miche maya-baddha jiba asa-pase fire

taba iccha bina kichu korite na pare

 

tumi to’ rakhaka ar palaka amara

tomara carana bina asa nahi ara

 

nija-bala-cesta-prati bharasa chariya

tomara icchay achi nirghara koriya

 

bhakativinoda ati dina akincana

tomara icchay ta’ra jibana marana

 

Translation

 

O youthful son of the King of Vraja,

You are Lord of all.

Creation and destruction take place in the universe according to Your will.

 

According to Your will Lord Brahma creates,

and in accordance with Your will

Lord Visnu maintains.

 

Lord Siva destroys in similar obedience to You,

and by Your wish

maya constructs the prison house of this world.

 

By Your will the living beings take birth and die,

and by Your will

they meet with prosperity and ruin,

happiness and sorrow.

 

The tiny soul bound up by maya

vainly struggles in the fetters of worldly desire.

Without Your sanction he is unable to do anything.

 

You are my protector and maintainer

Without Your lotus feet

there is no hope for me.

 

No longer confident

of my own strength and endeavor,

I depend solely on Your will.

 

Bhaktivinoda is most poor,

and his pride has been leveled.

Now he lives or dies,

as You wish.

 

-------------------------------

Pure unalloyed surrender at the lotus feet of Sri Krishna

is the only way to realize that we in fact

have the tiniest free will :

to accept Krishna's direct will

or Maya's will

(which indirectly is also Krishna's will)