Surrendering unto Srila Prabhupada?

[Govindaram]

Hare Krishna

 

What does this exactly mean?, Abiding by his instruction?

 

[theist]

Just ask yourself what alternative definitions are out there.

[Govindaram]

Hare Krishna

 

I just got what you said,

 

Should I start another thread on ritvik, fake Guru's etc.. /images/graemlins/mad.gif......

 

I read that Krsna doesn't like fake Guru's being worshiped, so He sends the Guru and his Disciple's to hell.

 

Srila Prabhupada never authorised anyone in Iskon to become Archaya's themselves, only on His behalf, besides me personally I can't trust any Guru's except Srila Prabhupada for Now, and I think I'll be this way to my dying day (Then maybe I'll meet him /images/graemlins/grin.gif)...

 

Getting initiation by the rivik way is all formality, you have to surrender to Srila Prabhupada at his lotus feet (and except his as your superior, just as Arjuna did to Lord Krsna), follow his instructions, and go back to Krsna.

 

You don't have to join Iskon or any movement, just worship Srila Prabhupada's instructions coming down from the disiplic succession from Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, and thats it!!

 

 

Ps I had a dream about His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada...I was in his company and he was talking with me, but I was looking at his lotus feet, and I had a feeling that I wanted to bow down before him, but I could't.

 

 

 

 

-------

<font color="red"> nitai-gauranga, nitai-gauranga </font color>

<font color="red"> jayasacinandana, gaura-hari </font color>

 

<font color="blue"> All glories to Lord Nityananda and Lord Caitanya!

</font color> <font color="blue"> the son of Saci-devi, who is Krsna Himself in golden hue.

</font color>

 

 

 

[I_love_krishna_]

"I read that Krsna doesn't like fake Guru's being worshiped, so He sends the Guru and his Disciple's to hell."

 

It is the Guru who was offending krishna by being "Fake" , the Disciple was not worshipping the Guru, he was worshipping what he thought was the Guru... then why does krishna send his disciple to hell?

 

Let me clarify my question with an example : Lets say I have a Guru X, but he is not really a guru but a fake one.

 

However, I worship him because Guru X is in my view the very materialized form of krishna. Then why would he send me to hell?

 

All I did was worship the materialized form of krishna in my mind, thus making the worship valid.

 

How is it so that if Guru goes to hell , I too go to hell?

 

 

 

[Govindaram]

How is it so that if Guru goes to hell, I too go to hell?

 

 

It is the Gurus responsibility to be truthful and not present him-self as Bona-Fide if he is not, if he does so then he is misleading not only the innocent public but defying Krsna, Krsna likes His pure bona-fide devotee being worshipped, but when a charlatan(s) is being worshipped then it is not a very good situation, the disciples of such Guru's are being fooled, and if this realisation does not come to them, then they will go to hell...

 

Also I think it should be noted that, this is a warning to people who accept fake-Guru's, and don't use their intelligence to search out a Bona-Fide one, instead they are themselves are after 'maybe' personal sense gratification and do not have a genuine desire to serve Krsna...

 

 

[Guest guest]

A lecture given in Bhubaneswar, India on September 28, 1995

 

by Srila Gour Govinda Swami

 

 

 

If you are very greedy, very eager to have sadhu-sanga, sanga, the association of grantha-bhagavata and bhakta-bhagavata, first of all you have to give up duhsanga or asat-sanga. What is association? One may say that to come in close proximity to a person is association. But that is not the fact. Association takes place in the mind, in the heart. As long as there are desires for material enjoyment, desires for liberation, desires for mystic perfections, and other desires in your heart, then you are doing asat-sanga. Even though you may come and sit here, and even though you may be staying in the temple, if all these thoughts and desires are in your mind, you are doing asat-sanga, duhsanga. You are not doing real sadhu-sanga.

 

If your heart is not crying how to have the real association of grantha-bhagavata and bhakta-bhagavata, then you cannot get their association. Even if you don't go anywhere, if you just sit in one place, still you will have duhsanga. The example is Saubhari Muni. He entered into the water of the Yamuna and stayed there for thousands of years, but still he had duhsanga. In our minds there are hundreds and thousands of desires giving duhsanga to us. Is your stupid mind thinking about Krishna? Is your stupid mind thinking about the instructions of sadhu-guru-vaisnava? Is your stupid mind thinking about the instructions of Mahaprabhu and His dear devotees? If the stupid mind is not thinking these things, then you are doing duhsanga, asat-sanga. You are not doing sadhu-sanga at all. Externally or apparently you are staying in the temple but you are really doing asat-sanga.

 

We should think about it: Are these thoughts pleasing to Krishna? Are these thoughts pleasing to guru and Gauranga? Krishna gave His most confidential instruction, man-mana bhava - "Only think of Me" [bg. 18.65]. Sriman Mahaprabhu gave the same instruction:

 

ki sayane ki bhojane, kiba jagarane aharnisa cinta krsna, balaha vadane

 

Whether asleep, awake, or eating your meals, think only of Lord Krishna day and night. With your mouths speak only of Him. [Cb. madhya 28.28]

 

Day and night, twenty-four hours, cinta-krsna, balaha vadane - think of Krishna and utter His name - in all conditions, whether sleeping, waking, or even when taking food. This is Mahaprabhu's instruction. So we should analyze what we are thinking about. Srila Kaviraj Goswami describes what is duhsanga:

 

'duhsanga' kahiye--'kaitava', 'atma-vancana' krsna, krsna-bhakti vinu anya kamana

 

Cheating oneself and cheating others is called kaitava. Associating with those who cheat in this way is called duhsanga, bad association. Those who desire things other than Krishna's service are also called duhsanga, bad association . [Cc. madhya 24.99]

 

Duhsanga means desiring things other than Krishna and krsna-bhakti. That is atma-vancana, cheating yourself, not cheating anyone else. If we don't think of the happiness and pleasure of Krishna, if we don't think of krsna-bhakti, if we think of something else and try to fulfill that desire, then even though we may be staying in the temple it is duhsanga. With this frame of mind or heart one cannot have the association of bhakta-bhagavata or grantha-bhagavata and one cannot render service unto guru, bhakta-bhagavata, or grantha-bhagavata.

 

Guru-.-padma is very heavy, not light. Guru means heavy. He is gambhira-vastu - very grave. We cannot approach him. We cannot go to him. If we are fortunate and we can go, then it is to be understood that there will be no more material attachment, no more material world. Thereby we will enter into Vaikuntha. There will be no more dense darkness in our hearts, no more of these other thoughts in our minds, no more contamination. There will be no more duplicity, crookedness, and desire for name, fame, and prestige.

 

We should think deeply about it. We should make a self-inquiry: "Have we reached guru-.-padma? Have we entered into his heart? Is he really merciful towards us? Is he really giving his darsana to us?" If he gives his darsana then there will be no more duhsanga! We are only pretending that we have done atma-nivedana, that we have surrendered. But we have not really surrendered. We have only been pretending, pretending, pretending for so many years, and also for so many years to come in the future. As long as we continue to act artificially we cannot approach guru, sadhu or vaisnava. We cannot get their mercy at all and therefore we cannot see their real form.

 

We will be cheated. We will get all external things.

[yasodanandana]

"Srila Prabhupada never authorised anyone in Iskon to become Archaya's themselves"

 

ask to these RITVISKONs people if Srila Gaura Govinda Maharaja was a bona fide authorized acharya or not..

[Govindaram]

Hare Krishna

 

ask to these RITVISKONs people if Srila Gaura Govinda Maharaja was a bona fide authorized acharya or not..

 

Well, you know what the answer would be..(he wasn't authorised)..although it seems Srila Gaura Govinda Maharaja was a devotee from his very birth, but I still say it's hard to trust anybody except Srila Prabhupada, maybe when I die I'll have a question & answer session with Yamarajji (devotee of Krsna) and ask him about Ritvik /images/graemlins/grin.gif That'll be fun!

[theist]

Prabhupada clearly wanted his disciples to become qualified as guru in the highest sense. Nothing could be more clear. So we should expect that some of them will and we should be open to that.

 

Why do we assume that Prabhupada and Supersoul can no longer instruct their disciple to now start accepting disciples?

 

We look for a tape or letter or some other externally manifested documentation for their authorization.

 

Where is that sort of authorization from Bhaktisiddhanta in regards to Srila Prabhupada?

 

By trusting so much in external sense perception we set ourselves up to be cheated.

 

That instruction will come to them via the heart and our recognition of that event will come in the same manner.

 

Being cheated doesn't just mean accepting a guru who is cheating us through false pretense. It also means assuming someone genuine is a cheater and therefore not hearing from him and missing his siksa.

 

Our only hope is that Supersoul will rightly direct us.

 

That should be our prayer.

[Govindaram]

Hare Krishna

 

Theist:

So we should expect that <font color="red"> some </font color> of them will and we should be open to that.

 

Yes, some of them NOT all..I don't know I think fake-gurus go to a hell which is of the worse kind. What gives them the right to mislead people.

 

 

[livingentity]

but I keep coming back to this thread and start to post this and then back out but here goes....

 

Well, you know what the answer would be..(he wasn't authorised)..

 

 

How do you know this?

 

[livingentity]

Instructions of Srila Prabhupada

Srila Prabhupada told him, “You will take me to Orissa.” Orissa is the Holy place where Lord Caitanya performed His most confidential pastimes. Also, Bhubaneswar is the gateway to Sri Jagannatha Puri. Under Srila Prabhupada's order, Srila Gour Govinda Swami single-handedly underwent extreme hardships to begin the creation of a magnificent temple. In February, 1977, the year of Srila Prabhupada's physical disappearance pastime, at his own insistence, Srila Prabhupada refused to stay in a government guesthouse and spent 17 days in the mud hut personally built for him by Srila Gour Govinda Swami. By the order of Srila Prabhupada, his intimate private instructions to Sri Gour Govinda Swami during those 17 days were kept confidential. No tape recordings were permitted. In perfect humility Srila Gour Govinda Swami disclosed to Srila Prabhupada that he desired to be the tail (follower) but <font color="red">Srila Prabhupada ordered him to be the head (leader).</font color>

 

[Govindaram]

Hare Krishna

 

LE

How do you know this?

 

Thats exactly it I don't know, and I don't think anybody else does either, you have to think though in the day when Srila Prabhupada was accepting disciples, how many people must have REJECTED him, as a fake-guru??....

 

Me:

Well, you know what the answer would be..(he wasn't authorised)..

 

I am talking from the point of view of Ritviks followers.

 

 

[livingentity]

 

am talking from the point of view of Ritviks followers.

 

 

My misunderstanding was that this was your opinion. Now this is cleared up. Thanks. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[theist]

Yes but fake does not mean anyone less realized or powerful than Srila Prabhupada. Really to claim you can take someone back to Godhead when you yourself are not there is a misrepresentation.

 

But to feel enough committment to someone to agree to help them advance through their life struggles and back towards Godhead can also be a genuine act of love.

 

I'll try to come up with a crude example. It will have faults but just try to get the drift and ignore the faults.

 

A person is calling for help and drowning in a body of water.

 

Most people on the shore either can't swim or aren't strong enough swimmers to personally save that person. So they can't enter the water.

 

One of them however pretends that he is and swims out to the drowning person and the person clings to him. But he doesn't really have the strength to get them both back to shore. He played the role of a hero for a while, and many had faith that he would save the person, he enjoyed the attention, but then the sham was exposed when they both drowned.

 

Another person with about the same inadequate swimming ability, that is enough to swim out but not back with another person decides to try. But this person, understanding his weakness, had connected a rope to a log on shore and swam out with the rope, and upon reaching the person had him grab the line. He then helped that tired person to safety by helping him stay attached to the safety line.

 

Neither the first or second person to swim out was in and of themselves fully up to the task, but the distressed person was actually saved by the efforts of the second whereas the first only inspired some temporary hope and faith until they both drowned.

 

We should not neglect the instructions of the second swimmer even though we may see he is too tired to swim us in himself. He never claimed he could, but he did bring the saving line to you and got you connected with it. Plus he stayed with you and helped you further pull yourself in until you reached shore.

 

We have to see if the one who has apparently come to help us are themselves connected with the lifeline. And if they are,grab on.

 

I believe Prabhupada would like all his disciples to come up at least to the position of the second swimmer, or Madhyam-adhikari.

 

Many will. I have that little faith in Sri Caitanya's mission.

 

If not then at least we can point to the second swimmer with the rope.

 

[Govindaram]

Hare Krishna

 

Very Crude example indeed, but I get the general meaning..

 

Theist

had connected a rope to a log on shore

 

Maybe it should be that the rope is being held?

 

i.e by Srila Prabhupada, if he is pleased he shall gladly hold on to the rope, if not then both the devotees will drown,

 

is Srila Prabhupada pleased that his devotees are trying to become something they are not?

 

[theist]

The rope is the parampara, it is being held by Krsna.

[theist]

The rope is the parampara and it is being held by Krsna

 

 

is Srila Prabhupada pleased that his devotees are trying to become something they are not?

 

 

I am not sure how you mean that exactly. Do I think he is unhappy by their trying to become guru? If so, then it depends on what you mean by guru. One becomes guru by becoming disciple. Surely that would please him.

 

Obviously playing guru for honor etc. would not please him.

 

Srila Prabhupada was always surrendored to pleasing Bhaktisiddhanta. Perfect disciple, that is what made him guru.

 

They are not separate. In relation to his guru he was disciple. In relation to his disciples he is guru. In both cases he remains humble servant.

 

Humble servant before God is what the soul is. That is not surrendered when Krsna orders one to sit on the Vyasasana. Now if someone on their on whim decides to crawl up on the big seat then of course that person is a nonsense, a disturbance that's all.

 

The question is how do blind people like you and me tell the difference? We are covered by darkness so they look the same.

 

 

 

 

[Govindaram]

Hare Krishna

 

The question is how do blind people like you and me tell the difference?

 

I feel we should look at the qualities of the Guru in question and see, how he acts, not just his speech, but his mannerism with people etc, but not test in a arrogant, fighting spirit way, but humbly just watch, but at the end of the day only Sri Radha-Krsna can direct you to a Bona-Fide Spiritual Master, but still because of our imperfections we should see that who we are worshiping is worthy, theres nothing wrong in testing Guru Maharaja!

 

We are covered by darkness so they look the same.

 

I must admit, (maybe I am partial being a Hindu, but I doubt it!), but devotees become Maha-Bhagavata if they are BORN in India..namly Vraj, Mayapur etc, the evidence is there for all to see, but I can't quite get my head around it yet /images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

 

 

 

[theist]

Hare Krishna

 

>>I feel we should look at the qualities of the Guru in question and see, how he acts, not just his speech, but his mannerism with people etc, but not test in a arrogant, fighting spirit way, but humbly just watch, but at the end of the day only Sri Radha-Krsna can direct you to a Bona-Fide Spiritual Master, but still because of our imperfections we should see that who we are worshiping is worthy, theres nothing wrong in testing Guru Maharaja!<<

 

No go ahead and test. But the senses you are testing with are imperfect. And how will you test for genuine motive? A good cheater may even tell you to test and pray first, knowing that that will convince many that they don't have to in this case.

 

And how do you divorce that testing from Supersoul?

 

Yes, at the end of the day Krsna must tell you.

 

>>I must admit, (maybe I am partial being a Hindu, but I doubt it!), but devotees become Maha-Bhagavata if they are BORN in India..namly Vraj, Mayapur etc, the evidence is there for all to see, but I can't quite get my head around it yet <<

 

Oh, born in India is the test of someone who can become a maha-bhagavat. Pure silliness.

 

 

 

[Govindaram]

Hare Krsna

 

But the senses you are testing with are imperfect.

 

Yes, but Sastra isn't you can cross-refference, Yes?

 

And how will you test for genuine motive?

A good cheater may even tell you to test and pray first, knowing that that will convince many that they don't have to in this case.

 

Yes, you are right a cheater would do that, a guru is not desperate to except disciples, the disciple should be desperate for Guru, the aspiring disciple should be very vigilant, and should JUST chant Hare-Krsna nicly, and look around and not be influenced by 'other' bhaktas, we are all individuals, we're not sheep, so we have a responsibility to ourselves..

[yasodanandana]

"Well, you know what the answer would be..(he wasn't authorised)..although it seems Srila Gaura Govinda Maharaja was a devotee from his very birth"

 

so you gave the rigth answer

 

gaura govinda maharaja was a devotee... devotee means disciple and master... master means diska and siksa

 

"maybe when I die I'll have a question & answer session with Yamarajji (devotee of Krsna) and ask him about Ritvik That'll be fun!"

 

he will explain that he has got a spiritual master....

[yasodanandana]

"I believe Prabhupada would like all his disciples to come up at least to the position of the second swimmer, or Madhyam-adhikari."

 

sure!! but from there also uttama!!

 

if we think that srila prabhupada cannot make pure devotees legitimated to be acharyas, we are thinking that he is teaching a wrong path and that he, not being realized, cannot teach complete realization

 

krsna consciousness is meant for going to the most higher (uttama) level, to godhead.... we have to be preoccupied to do this, not to be happy to find a mid-size guru, and we have not to be happy if in a religious organization we do not recognise pure devotees

 

my realization.. to please prabhupada...:

 

1)iskcon is plenty of pure devotees (as other gaudya sangas)

2)one has first to find a pure vaishnava devotee, then we will see if he has stamped "iskcon" on te passport

 

(these are my thoughts on the subject, not oppositions to your message)

:-)

[theist]

 

"I believe Prabhupada would like all his disciples to come up at least to the position of the second swimmer, or Madhyam-adhikari."

 

sure!! but from there also uttama!!

 

 

"at least"

 

Doesn't the Uttama drop down to Madhyam to preach?

[yasodanandana]

"Doesn't the Uttama drop down to Madhyam to preach?"

 

no... uttama does not became madyama, he only takes the behaviour of a madyama

 

uttama thinks that there are not differences, everything and everyone is serving krishna... but he, if krsna or guru order to him to be a master he has to teach the concepts of good and bad.. advanced and neophite.. virtue and sin.. devotee and demon... proper behaviour (achara) and wrong behaviour

 

but, if we study the biographies of srila prabhupada it is very easy to see the detachement and the humbleness of the uttama bhakta

 

there are many cases of srila prabhupada chastizing disciples and, after a few minutes, excusing with them: "i am sorry, it is my duty, i am not qualified, i am doing it (sarasvate deve,, gauravani pracharine) ordered by guru and gauranga"

 

--

 

of course i am not telling that we can learn something only from uttama baktas....