Jagat Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Dear members and readers of this forum, Two threads dealing with this subject have already been locked. I do not wish to cause trouble, but I find this issue is an important one. You may read my article on Vaishnava antisemitism. Some of you no doubt support antisemite views. That is unfortunate. Those who are clear, not only of the sinister nature of such propaganda but of its irrelevance to Krishna consciousness, absolutely must make their viewpoint known to VNN. VNN can be reached at the following addresses VNN can be reached at the following addresses editorial03@vnn.org news03@vnn.org cp03@vnn.org pr03@vnn.org publish03@vnn.org notpublish03@vnn.org This is not an issue of free speech, but of relevance. It is not the business of a Vaishnava website to discuss the merits or demerits of the Jewish people, any more than it is to discuss the merits or demerits of American Iraqi policy or the Tchetchen issue in Russia. Therefore the suggestion that one write an article to rebut Srivatsa's is not appropriate. The ideas of antisemitism have a long and rather disgusting history. Vaishnavas should not be associated with them. If you value the reputation of Lord Chaitanya's movement--which places love of God at the forefront--then take a stand against this nefarious tendency to blacken a single race, people or religion. I cannot overemphasize how important this is. Some of you may not care if Vaishnavism is associated with hate and racism. I do. Your servant, Jagadananda Das. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 I think your accusations of hatred and racism are extreme and offensive. Anti-semitism should not immediatly be equated with such extreme conditions. Anti-semitism can also be a much more benign rejection of the authenticity of Judaism. Being anti-semite does not immediatly make someone a Hitler or a Nazi. Krishna himself in Bhagavad-gita has directed humanity to abandon all varieties of religion and to surrender unto him. Many great Vaishnava acharyas have likened these man-made religions to cheating processes. Judaism is considered to be a man-made religion but the Vaishnava philosophy declares that "dharmam tu sakshat bhagavat pranitam" - religion can only be given by the Supreme Lord. Vaishnavism rejects all man-made religions as just so many cheating processes. To say that Judaism is a cheating process is not hatred or racism - it is just the facts according to acharyas. To immediatly jump to calling Vaishnavism as hatred and racism because it rejects cheating, man-made religions is quite unfair. Judaism rejects all other religions. So if we use this standard of judgement then we would have to say that the Jews are also hateful racists. Judaism is not about brotherhood and fraternity with all people of all faiths - it is about monolithic monopoly on religion. Christianity rejects all other religions. Islam rejects all other religions. Why should Vaishnavism be singled out and labled as hate and racism because it rejects the cheating processes of man-made religions? Anti-semitism should not immediatly be equated with holocaust advocacy. It does mean that incinerators should be built and mass disposal of Jews should be undertaken. Anti-semitism can be a benign rejection of Judaism as a cheating religion. To say that Judaism is a cheating religion is in accord with the teachings of Lord Krishna and the acharyas. If Judaism can reject other religions then why should other religions not have the equal right to reject Judaism. The attempt to make anti-semitism into a monstrous creed of Jewish genocide is just a scare tactic that the Jews use to deter the exposing of their man-made religion as just so much cheating. Everyone should the right to say what they believe without being labled as hateful racists. The Jews however want to censor all their critics by claiming "anti-semitic holocaust" is coming! The Jews are in no situation in the modern world to be vicitmized by a Nazi dictator in a mass genocide. It is about time now that the Jews are held up to the same criticism and scrutiny as every other religion of the world without this scare-tactic of screaming "holocaust", holocaust"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 to judge with cathegories (hebrews, indians, blondes, fat, tall....) is a typical kanista adhikari (=materialist pseudo spiritualist) behaviour.. if i have to be "anti-something" i have to be "anti-me" or against my attachement to the material world you have not to be anti judaism... you have only to help hebrews or whoever to add harekrishna to their beliefs.. this is your and mine only duty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 I think your pipe-dream that Jews would ever add Krishna into their religion is quite the fantasy. Krishna did not say to concoct some religion by adding Krishna to a man-made religion. Krishna said :"abandon all these cheating processes" and surrender to ME! Your idea of manufacturing some freak religion of adding Hare Krishna to the bizarre faith of the Jews is quite the speculation. It has no authority and no validity. You are praching compromise and concoction. Krishna made no such compromise - he said "give it all up and surreneder". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagat Posted September 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 First of all "antisemitism" is a word used to refer to a specific set of ideas, which have been adequately expressed in Srivatsa's article. I have been in contact with another gentleman, evidently an associate of Srivatsa, who rehashes the same ideas. You can look at the source of their arguments, Des Griffin, and find out what he thinks. This right-wing Christian, anti-socialist, anti-liberal paranoiac is a clever antisemite, who does not fit the image of a frothing, rabid Jew hater. Of course not, successful propagandists are usually smarter than that. That does not make it something that it is not. The root is still paranoia, bigotry and hate. Its only destination is prejudice, exclusion and conflict. Srivatsa's article has nothing to do with denying the authenticity of Judaism. If it is against Jewish bigotry, then it should be equally against bigotry of any kind. Inciting people to fear and loathe Jews because of what some narrow-minded Talmud scholars said is not "benign." We have enough to worry about in Hinduism, from which we callously pretend to separate ourselves ("If Hindus are wrong that does not reflect on us, because we are not Hindu.") We have enough to worry about in our own history, which I need not repeat. Don't think that Vaishnavas are free from the potential to be bigots. We have seen fanaticism in our movement. We have seen devotees fighting pitched battles in Calcutta. Devotees are human beings with the potential for all the lower tendencies that are present in humans everywhere. No fanciful philosophy is protection against a very real world. Faced with social stresses, devotees are as capable of misusing their religion for political ends as Christians, Muslims or Jews. In other words, Vaishnavism also can become a cheating process. Those who use it for any purpose other than to achieve love for Krishna are cheating. This is what the Bhagavatam is saying. Not that anyone who wears tilaka and carries a mala is automatically protected from contamination. This article by Srivatsa is in fact an example of the misuse of Krishna consciousness. He adds one verse from Chaitanya Charitamrita--prithivite ache joto nagaradi grama. What for? To show that we Vaishnavas will conquer the world. And so, the Jews, Christians and Muslims are the enemies we must defeat. It is easy to point out the faults in others. It is less easy to see their virtues. Have Jews no virtues? Have Christians no virtues? Muslims? A true devotee focuses on those good qualities and asks how he can learn from them. History is a hard teacher. Believe me, the last century has been one heck of a tough one for all religions. Christians especially have had to ask themselves where their fanaticisms have led. We should learn from their experience rather than repeating it. As soon as I hear the expression "Zionist bankers plotting to take over the world," I know that we are NOT talking about your so-called "benign antisemitism," but the real thing--the one that did lead to the Holocaust. My reaction is not excessive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 "...Jews however want to censor all their critics by claiming "anti-semitic holocaust" is coming!" I very much agree with that assesment. Vaishnavas should treat all people equally, and that means no discrimination and also no preferential status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 "abandon all these cheating processes" and surrender to ME!" or better "abandone the concept of material religion and surrender to me" so abandon the concept of material religion wars and surrender to krsna mahamantra.. i am not advocating a concoction or a mixing, i have a little faith in the self-capacity of the mahamantra to adjust the things when he spreads himself if we do not give the main importance to the mahamantra or we do not believe that he will spread in every town or village, it is a very unfortunate thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagat Posted September 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 "...Jews however want to censor all their critics by claiming "anti-semitic holocaust" is coming!" Certainly, those who are discriminated against have a tendency to shout discrimination, often unwarrantedly. Jews, Blacks, Hare Krishnas, Hindus, Muslims--all do this. I am not saying that no one should speak out against wrong doing wherever they see it. Nor am I defending manipulatively using accusations of discrimination to one's own advantage, nor denying that some Jews may have done so in the past. What I am saying is that if we have a specific complaint about Jews in relation to Krishna consciousness, i.e., Israel passes a law banning the chanting of Hare Krishna, for instance, or a Jewish organization like the B'nai B'rith condemns Iskcon for idol worship, then we can enter into debate with that specific individual or society. But that is not what is going on here. Srivatsa and others are repeating traditional antisemitic slogans about Zionist bankers, world domination and so on. These are exactly the sorts of things that the Nazis repeated ad nauseam, until it became commonly accepted truth. We all know where that led. Apparently some of you haven't got enough historical sensitivity to be able to discriminate between these different kinds of discourse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagat Posted September 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 The most disagreeable thing about so-called Vaishnavas is their smug superior attitude. "Our religion is transcendental.We are above the bodily conception.Judaism, Christianity and Islam are man-made religions. Only our religion comes directly from God.These are all cheating religions, only ours is truly pure." You are such foolish kanistha adhikaris. A religion is only as pure as its practitioners. Anyone can claim anything they like. Show me!! "Our race is true and pure. Therefore we can kill the others." "Our religion is true and pure. Therefore we can ..." See where this is going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahak Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Smug superiority is the good description. The factionalism of Srila Prabhupada's disciples explain that understanding of the idea to give up all religions in favor of surrender to Krsna is just not evident. Before one comments on other religions or those who serve the Supreme Lord according to culture, they must come to a platform to be free of such ideas that they are better than everyone else, otherwise, all they have is hypocracy. That said, The definition of Semite is "a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs, as well as descendants of these peoples". "Anti-Semitic" is a term describing opposition to not only the Hebrews, but Iraqis as well, as they are descendents of the Akkadians. There is no greater anti-Semitic-ism going on in the world today than the murders of the people of Iraq by the United States. I personally do not care to hear cries of anti-semiticism. It may have been a problem with the aryan wannabes of the third reich 70 years ago, but it cannot be applied to the mideast crisis in any manner, because semites are at war with each other. But I think what Jagat is mentioning here is valid. I remember when the nazi mentality entered the krsna movement, and it was a mis-application from start to finish. HOLOCAUST, it is not just the Jews, but they keep the misery alive because of their attachment to their race. But holocaust was also performed on gypsies, ethiopians, cambodians, russians, armenians, against all by many types of demoniac controllers. Holocaust has lost its meaning for me as well, because it never ends. Some may say "never again", but the fact remains that it never stopped. Ramblin a bit, just wanted folks to know what is meant by the word Semite, before Yassir gets tagged with such a moniker. haribol, ys, mahaksadasa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagat Posted September 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 I want to keep issues a bit separate. I am observing that certain people are using the Israel/Palestine issue to further antisemitic objectives. I am personally vigorously opposed to Israeli policy, especially that of settlement in the occupied territories, but also the kinds of economic squeezing through manipulation of water resources, as well as the building of walls that are obviously meant to further reduce Palestinian well-being. I detest suicide bombing, but I honestly feel these are the expression of desperation that has reached extremes. People who have no reason to live commit suicide. People who have been reduced to hopelessness by hate turn to suicide bombing. There is evidently a faction of the Israeli body politic that really desires to annihilate the Palestinian people. This is perhaps not spoken of openly, but it seems to run through that country's policies. This has been there since well before the existence of an independent Israeli state. Like neo-Naziism, it is something that few would openly admit to, but it is the only way that we can understand the relentless squeezing out of the Palestinians. Again, the pro-Israeli lobby in Washington is very strong and influential. It not only supports Israel, but also actions like those in Iraq because they feel that these strengthen the Israeli position. I think these actions are wrong because they only increase resentment. On the other hand, Islam is a tough nut to crack. The presence of fundamentalism is stronger in Islam than any other major world religion. Islamic fundamentalists have an instinctive aversion to living in a state where they are a minority, especially in those places, like India, where they were once rulers. This implacability has resulted in Islam being involved in most of the major conflict situations in the world today. Musharaff recently recognized this, but his speech seemed to have a whiff of victimhood about it. Are Muslims themselves not to blame in part for their lot? Nevertheless, he was right to say that Muslims grievances must be dealt with in a satisfactory manner in order that world peace be found. Obviously dealing with Muslim grievances does not mean everyone converts to Islam. Where other religions are minorities in Islamic states, they are not treated well (Christians, Hindus, Bahais, Ahmaddiyas and Ismailis in Pakistan, Buddhists and Hindus in Bangla Desh, Christians and animists in Sudan, to give just a few examples). In view of this, it is hard for me to give all the blame for the Palestinian situation to the Israelis. A Sudanese friend of mine (son of the Sudanese ambassador to Washington, actually) once said to me that the West had exported its Jewish problem to the Middle East. This was a funny way of saying it, but it was true. What Jew wanted to live in Europe after WWII? They were given a part of Palestine because of the overwhelming demand, but how was it possible for them to be accomodated without severely inconveniencing the people who had occupied that land for centuries? The Europeans were happy to be rid of the Jews. Now they can comfortably be liberally against antisemitism, while also railing against Israel. But in fact, European-born antisemitism is alive and kicking in the Muslim world. Books like the "Edicts of the Elders of Zion," the infamous propaganda forgery of the Czarist period, are alive and well and selling briskly in Arabic translation. If Jews have become successful in America, it is due to their talent and intelligence, as well as their strong sense of identity community spirit, and buttressed by a this-worldly philosophy that sees God's grace in the fullness of life in this world. Those who see Judaism as a creation of men have a subtlety of vision approaching that of cows and donkeys. More Jewish ideas are ingrained in all of us, even after conversion to Krishna consciousness, than we would care to admit--ideas that have been vehicled to us through Christianity. Start with monotheism, for example. Devotees of Krishna are more monotheistic than good old Hindu polytheists. I am personally in favor of a more Hindu approach, but Iskcon devotees would probably call me a Mayavadi. But I am starting to wander... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagat Posted September 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Dear Mahax, You said, "But they keep the misery alive because of their attachment to their race." Can any of us honestly say that we are not attached to some aspects of identity, like race? Look at the way Americans reacted to 9-11. "America under attack!" If I said, "You can live, but give up your Krishna consciousness." What would you do? Would that be the right thing to do? Would you be ready "to keep the misery alive" if you were oppressed and marginalized because of your attachment to Krishna consciousness? You happen to live in a country where there is religious freedom, even though social stigmas make it difficult to adopt a socially obscure, somewhat unusual religion like Krishna consciousness. You haven't really been put to the test. In fact, millions of Jews did convert to Christianity in order to save their asses. Didn't save all their asses when Hitler came along. 1/16 Jewish blood was enough to get you fried. What becoming a devotee of Krishna meant, in terms of cultural identity, is something that has not been fully fathomed by most of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Jagat prabhu, I respect your position and reasoning, and agree with many points you are making. I have met several "devotees" who have strong neo-nazi and anti-semitic inclinations arising out of personal ignorance and immaturity. Such people are certainly a blemish on our community. Still, such sentiments are not entirely irrational. Look around you. You do seem to notice some of the problems related to very negative actions of certain Jewish people in Israel and other countries. Immature and ignorant people will tend to stretch blame to all Jews, and blame them for all kinds of problems...guilty by association... that is a very common approach today: oversimplification, and our community of devotees is guilty of it in many, many ways... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Ah Jagat Babu! Devotees of Krishna are more monotheistic than good old Hindu polytheists Both the mono and poly are unsaturated, see? When one is actually saturated with divine then both the mono and poly are gone, no? I mean whoever heard of mono or poly saturated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 my conception of "saturated" is: saturated by the love for a "mono" personality of godhead with "poly(=infinite)" manifestations but god is one, not many.. and surely not me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 but god is one, not many.. and surely not me Not you? Are you really so sure Prabhu? /images/graemlins/wink.gif One and different. Mind boggling mystery. Absolutely acintya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 i do not know to be god, to be the controller of the nature, the universes and also your controller and god is supremely intelligent and enlightened (=buddha).. he does not forget to be god i am not krsna, i want to remain separated and embrass him, have some of his rasagullas, chapati, cheese... playing some ball etc.... all impossible if i discover that i am him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_love_krishna_ Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Not just by : "have some of his rasagullas, chapati, cheese... playing some ball etc.... all impossible if i discover that i am him " But also by making him eat what you cook for him! /images/graemlins/smile.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 "But also by making him eat what you cook for him! " sorry, but it is not my rasa, in the spiritual world i need only a big eternal holiday (maybe i can give a little contribute for the expences) /images/graemlins/smile.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagat Posted September 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Hi Shashi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 not that kind of oneness where you forget the separation and lose all sense of duality. Rather both at once. Anyway this is a detour off the topic. Racism has no place in the transcendental conception although in the world we are forced to deal with all these sorts of things. Very tricky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagat Posted September 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Dear Staff, Dandavat pranams. I think you should consider publishing Jagat's letter to the editor of Chakra, http://www.chakra.org/discussions/letters.html to balance Srivatsa's textbook antisemitic conclusions about Zionism. What his two recent articles do for spreading the mission of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu escapes me. I am personally reluctant to post on VNN if a neutral editorial policy means giving voice to the philosophy of the John Birch Society rather than that of Raya Ramananda and Srila Rupa Gosvami. I kept silent while the homosexual war raged on your front page, and won't respond to the Urmila Chronicles, either. I wrote a short article about guru tattva in response to Urmila's "nomination," but at this point am reluctant to send it to you for posting. Publishing Jagat's letter will give VNN more credibility. Otherwise you may find that organizations like the Jewish Defense League will flag VNN as anti-semitic and might even come after you in court. How will such a categorization (being labled anti-semitic) relfect on Srila Narayana Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Ballabh Tirtha Maharaja and the other Gaudiya preachers whose sweet and wonderful Hari-katha also appear on the VNN pages? Your servant, Puru das, das anudas <center>Please visit «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤» ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ The Bhaktivedanta Memorial Library http://www.bvml.org «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»</center> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagat Posted September 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Dear VNN staff, I was directed to an article written by Srivatsa Dasa entitled 'Repetition of History' by my friend Jagadananda Dasa. I am appalled that you would publish such an obviously racist article on your web site. I find it disgusting to say the least to have the good name of Sriman Mahaprabhu associated with such hate and racial slander. I suggest that you rethink your editorial policy. I also highly recommend that you remove the offensive article from your web site and issue a formal apology distancing yourselves from such ideas. Your concerned servant, Audarya-lila dasa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Haribol, jagat. I agree with your points, the jews are not responsible for the troubles of the middle east. However, like i mentioned, there is anti-semitic activity going on in the world, the worst kind of ethnic cleansing going on, and some in the Israel Government must be held responsible. Can one honestly, knowing the definition of semite, say that the butchery going on in the name of Israel, in violation of UN charter and resolutions, is not anti-semitic? But I do understand the context of this thread, and I do agree that the nazis and bigots have a field day at the expense of the jew. But I sepoarate secular zionism from the jewish race and religion, and I am not alone in this assessmentr. Many scholars of the jewish faith have also decried zionism as apostacy and foerign to judaic theology. Zionism is as foreign to judaism as manifest destiny is to christianity. Yet Christians push manifest destiny to this day, and many jews cry anti-semeticism if they hear zxionism criticized. Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Well said Mahak prabhu. Serious asuras hide in the zionist camp. They have brainwashed Jews all over the world to be their protectors. I'm surprised even otherwise mature devotees fall for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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