The antisemitism issue

[Jagat]

I have no objection to devotees taking a stand on issues like the one you describe. However, as a whole, the movement has to express the problem as a moral and ethical one and not as an ethnic or political one.

 

It is NOT a religious issue at all. Therefore it is entirely peripheral to our concern as a religious movement.

[Guest guest]

Jagat,

I just read your article on VNN, then I saw this statement above that you wrote to them regarding the "intro" they put at the start of your article.

 

Personally, I am very pleased to see you voicing disapproval of the racist, bigoted views of the loony crew.

 

I am tired of internet chat and contention, and I certainly wouldn't bother arguing with anyone at VNN. But in my humble opinion it is good to take the time to denounce racists.

 

VNN is the biggest sham on the internet, not the most popular Vaishnava web site. I have had some experiences with the Krparama (is he still running vnn? -- but actually, I don't care!!!) and from my experiences I know that the preposterous VNN claim to be "unbiased" is just a hoax. Look at the many, many articles criticizing Tamal Krishna Maharaj and ISKCON on VNN, but did they ever publish any of Narasingha Maharaj's several articles about Narayana Maharaja and his "novel" teachings?

 

I also feel that devotees need to move beyond the flat-earth view of Krishna consciousness.. as Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur taught us to do Sri Krishna Samhita. But as Bhaktivinode Thakur says in that book, the beginners are numerous and the beginners prefer dogma to revelation and an inspired vison of God.

 

I myself am from a family of Hitler lovers. The old folks spoke German at home and they thought Hitler was good because "he made the trains run on time". But as Srila Sridhar Maharaj said, "he (Hitler) was too much a hater of the Jews".

 

-- Muralidhar

 

 

 

 

[Jagat]

I appreciate your comments. The trouble with remaining silent is that small vocal minorities appear to dominate.

 

I don't think VNN has the self-knowledge to recognize their own biases.

 

Haribol, Jagat

[Guest guest]

yeah that is the standard version of jewish/illuminati

control.

 

funny how that theory originates with the catholic church,

specifically the Abbe Barruel at the end of the 18th century, see my earlier posts.

 

this kind of propaganda has continued ever since.

 

the standard lie is the "freemasonry is a luciferian

or Babylonian satanic worshipping cult of kabbalists"

 

hogwash.

 

there is no one dogma in freemasonry, they originally incorporated

a number of esoteric philosophies that were floating around europe at the time of freemasonry's conception,

and also newer philosophies have been incorporated since then.

 

they are rosicrucianism/hermeticism,kabbalism,gnostic

christianity,theosophy,and newer theories articulated

by Sitchin of an alien invasion (he translates

sumerian mythology as being the true account of

alien invasion and take over,genetic manipulation,

and breeding of human racial stocks for a race

or bloodline of alien/human hybrids with superior

ruling abilities,the t.v. show "the X-files"

was based on his theories.)

 

the various philosophies incorporated into freemasonry

are not an official dogma, there is no official dogma,

various people put forth and believe various versions

of the above belief systems ,they are all present

in some form or another in freemasonry DEPENDING

ON WHO YOU ASK.

 

there is no official dogma, you can find rosicrucian

 

http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:wgQIPE_9M60J:www.disorganization.com/danbala/Library/Rosicrucians.html+www.disorganization.com/danbala/+Library/Rosicrucians.html&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

 

beliefs of the "great white brotherhood/illuminati"

from the court of pharoah Akhnaton and Hermes Trismegistus,and their belief of the ascension

of the soul to godhood(joseph smith founder

of mormonism incorporated this into the

evolution of his dogma along with other

freemason ideologies)

 

http://www.gnosis.org/ahp.htm

 

http://www.gnosis.org/jskabb1.htm

 

 

any ways, people like Pike and their ideaology

of luciferian dogma is coming from these sources,

they are not devil worship, they are more closely

related to the mystic yoga system designed for gaining

immortality and mystic powers, in fact it has been

shown that India is the original source of these

esoteric dogmas in europe.

 

the idea of calling these beliefs "satanism" is based

on what the Catholic church calls any mystic path

that attempts to gain power over nature,to them

that is "satanism" ,it's not about devil worship

but the attempt to gain power over God's natural order,

therefore they call all mystic paths that promise

power or mystic abilites "satanism", and in turn

those who have been castigated as such have taken

the term as a badge of honor, although they do not

worship satan, simply engage in the attempt for mystic

powers.

 

As i posted allready , the fallacy of jewish domination

and Kabbalistic devil worshippers can be shown

to be a creation of the Catholic church, while Kabbalism

is incorporated into the freemason beliefs, it is hardly

a "satanic" belief system, in fact there are different

types of Kabbalism, basicaly they exist as a metaphoric

interpretaion of older Jewish beliefs from the torah

or talmud, all of these various philosophies

may be considered strange or even harmful ,but that depends on your point of view.

 

is the belief that a person who was tortured to death

on a cross ,then revived ,then because of that

all those who "accept" him are saved and go to paradise,

and all who do not are damned for eternity, any

less bizarre then the esoteric found within

freemasonry ?

 

the various speculators and "experts" like Icke,

or mullins have fallen into the trap set by

the Catholic church, the freemasons to them

were originally started back in ancient

sumeria or babylon(they base this belief

on rosicrucian dogma,which was originally

made up of various gnostic beleif systems

including Mandeism,manichesim,bogomilism,

etc, basicaly they are offshoots of Zoroastrianism,

which postulates two gods, a good one and a bad one,

but the good one is passive, and the bad one creates

the material world and dominates it,which has it's

roots in a bastardization of more ancient vedic

ideas of Devas,Asuras,Maya,ect.)and has been geneologicaly

kept within a bloodline of secret conspirators,

luciferians, devil worshippers,a babylonian cult

of evil oppressors who have been secretly

behind all religions, all dynasties,and all

migrations of peoples into europe,india,the americas,

etc, that this group or bloodline is jewish,

not jewish in belief but the real original

babylonian jews etc etc etc.

 

all gibberish propaganda started by the Catholic church

as a scare tactic to hinder the growth and popularity

of freemasonry among not only royalty,nobility,

and merchant class's ,but also the priesthood.

 

freemason as a conspiracy to subvert government control

to their own ends began in the late 17th and early 16th

century, they incorporated the various esoteric

philosophies i've mentioned into their

organization to give it a seemingly ancient

past in order to be seen as an authentic

ancient order to attract and convince people

that the various rosicrucian/hermetic histories

were real, and they were it's torch bearers,

to this they included anglo israelism,and the

teaching that jesus had children and lived(according

to who you ask either in Britain and spawned

king Arthur, or Mary magadalane moved to france,

Marseilles is named after her because

that is where she and jesus' son moved to and

continued their dynasty)and royalty today is descended

from Jesus.

 

all this was an attempt to create a system of control

that i have allready spoken of.

 

 

 

[Kulapavana]

whoever "they" may really be I hardly care Shivaji prabhu. to me they are just another bunch of power hungry asuras. Hare Krishna!

[Guest guest]

for someone who hardly cares you seem to have a

lot to say about them,all wrong though, the idea of

Rothschild and other Jewish Bankers being in control

was a catholic creation, while Rothschiold and others

were involved with Freemasonry they were not in control,

Rothschild got his start as the servant of the Royal

houses,who were freemasons, his ascendency had to do with

his competence as a banker and economic adviser,

his family was never in control, another big Jewish Family

was the Sassoons, Sasson dock in Bombay was built

by the Sassons, they were iraqi Jews who moved to India

and became through hard work and connections in the

middle east the dominant Merchant house in Asia,

they moved to England and Became close friends of the Royal Family,again they were not in charge of any conspiracy, they were brought into the fold because

they were successful businessmen,the best in Asia,

that is the case with all of the "jewish" freemasons,

they serve the organization, they don't rule over it,

Kabbalism isn't the main esoteric dogma in Freemasonry,

rosicrucianism/Hermeticsm is propbably the most influential philosophy.

 

http://smithpp0.tripod.com/psp/id6.html

 

timeline Hermetic rosicrucianism

[Kulapavana]

Prabhu, the real issue, which you seem to be carefully avoiding, is whether such shadowy organizations have good or malicious intentions. I might be reading it wrong, but you seem to portray them as a bunch of good guys out to help the world while they can enjoy their privacy. I however think their main dogma is not esoteric at all, it is greed and desire to control, typical desires of the asuras.

[yasodanandana]

i hope there's not a jewish forum where they are speaking of hare krsna with this ridicule approximation

 

i.e... harekrsna = pedophiles

 

(it is not specifically directed to you prabhu)

[Kulapavana]

As an organization, or community, we must actively fight all evils (such as child abuse) in our society and not sweep them under the carpet. Many times in the past I was ashamed of our leaders trying to cover up such "internal" problems and responding only when forced to do so from the outside. I publicly spoke against this kind of shameful behaviour many times, often getting in trouble as the result, and while I was not alone, many devotees chose to remain silent. I'm glad things are better now.

 

I hope you understand my point, as it applies to everybody.

[yasodanandana]

yes.. of course... but i am only saying that as an "aspiring" madyam adhikari , i do not like generalizations (all the blondes do this, all the jews do that, all the blacks .. the americans.. the indians.. the karmis etc.)

[Kulapavana]

I do not generalize. Several of my posts on this thread make a clear point about that. The issue is that we should not blame others for our situation, because for the most part we get what we deserve. Most of the time when people criticize us they have a good reason. We should at least carefully examine such criticism to make sure we are indeed blameless. Labelling all those who dare to criticise us as envious demons, anti-semites, etc. is not only blind but also detrimental to our spiritual progress.

 

I really hope this is my last post on this thread... ;-)

[Guest guest]

i disagree that isn't the "real issue", this thread

is about the perception and dissmenation of theories

about jewish led world control by conspiracies,

not the "good or bad" aspects of these conspiraces.

 

for my thoughts on that go to the

world review section and see my threads - freemasonry and darwinism,

kkk/masons in washington, controlled america and many othe posts.

[Guest guest]

September 29, 2003

 

Abusing 'Anti-Semitism'

 

by Ran HaCohen

 

The eve of the Jewish New Year is an excellent occasion for what Jewish tradition calls Kheshbon Nefesh, or soul-searching on so-called "anti-semitism", which has now become the single most important element of Jewish identity. Jews may believe in God or not, eat pork or not, live in Israel or not, but they are all united by their unlimited belief in anti-semitism.

 

When a Palestinian kills innocent Israeli civilians, it's anti-semitism. When Palestinians attack soldiers of Israel's occupation army in their own village, it's anti-semitism. When the UN General Assembly votes 133 to 4 condemning Israel's decision to murder the elected Palestinian leader, it means that except for the US, Micronesia and Marshal Islands, all other countries on the globe are anti-semitic. Even when a pregnant Palestinian woman is stopped at an Israeli check-point and gives birth in open field, the only lesson to be learnt is that Ha'aretz journalist Gideon Levy – who reported two such cases in the past two weeks, one in which the baby died – is an anti-semite.

 

Anti-semitism is an all-encompassing explanation. Anything unpleasant to anti-Palestinian ears is just anotherance of anti-semitism. Jewish consciousness focused on anti-semitism has taken the shape of anti-semitic conspiracy theories, like that of The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion: whereas the anti-semitic classic relates every calamity to Jewish conspiracy, Jews relate to anti-semitic conspiracy every criticism of Israel. As we shall see, this is not the only similarity between anti-Palestinianism and anti-semitism.

 

It is high time to say it out loud: in the entire course of Jewish history, since the Babylonian Exile in the 6rd century BC, there has never been an era blessed with less anti-semitism than ours. There has never been a better time for Jews to live in than our own.

 

Up to just two generations ago, anti-semitism was a legitimate political and cultural attitude in most of the world's leading powers. Anti-semitism was something you could express openly, even be proud of. Disliking Jews was as natural then as detesting cockroaches is today. Nowadays, anti-semitism is a taboo and a criminal offence in every developed country on earth. Even truly anti-semitic groups deny their anti-semitic character, knowing it is politically unacceptable. Unlike earlier centuries, where anti-semitism stood in direct proportion to the number of Jews in the pertinent country and thus constituted a real threat to them, the countries where anti-semitism is still thrivingtoday – mostly poor Muslim countries – are virtually empty of Jews, so that the actual danger to Jews there is minimal; representatives of Muslim communities in the West have to give up their anti-semitism as a precondition for entering the political system.

 

Just a few generations ago – the Holocaust aside for now – Jews were treated as second-class citizens in all major Jewish concentrations. They were denied civic and religious rights almost universally. There were limits on access of Jews to universities and many professions, to public service and to any position of power; sometimes even marrying and making children was dependent on quotas and licences. Such institutionalised discrimination and oppression is not only totally extinct today: it is utterly unimaginable. With one revealing exception (Israel, where non-orthodox religious Jews are discriminated against), Jews enjoy full religious freedom wherever they are. They have full citizenship wherever they live, with full political, civic and human rights like every other citizen. This may sound trivial, but it was not so just a few generations ago and throughout the entire first and second millennia. Repressive regimes have either collapsed, or their Jewish population has left them.

 

Nowadays, an orthodox Jew can run for the most powerful office on earth, the president of the United States (I personally hope he doesn't win). A Jew can be the mayor of Amsterdam in "anti-semitic" Holland, a minister in "anti-semitic" Britain, a leading intellectual in "anti-semitic" France, a president of "anti-semitic" Switzerland, editor-in-chief of a major daily in "anti-semitic" Denmark, or an industrial tycoon in "anti-semitic" Russia. None of this was imaginable a century ago. Jews have free and unlimited access to every institution in every country they live in; Ironically, a converted Jew is even mentioned as a possible successor to the Holy See. At the same time, "anti-semitic" Germany (home to the world's fastest-growing Jewish community) gives Israel three military submarines for free, "anti-semitic" France has proliferated to Israel the nuclear technology for its weapons of mass destruction, and "anti-semitic" Europe has welcomed Israel as a single non-European country to everything from football and basketball leagues to the Eurovision Song Contest, and has granted Israeli universities a special status for scientific fund-raising.

 

The Holocaust has been the greatest catastrophe in Jewish history and among the greatest crimes in human history – but the very fact that these words sound so obvious is a great victory on anti-semitism. The term genocide, coined by a Jewish survivor of the Holocaust (R. Lemkin) and modelled on the genocide of the Jews, has found its way to international legislation and been affirmed as a crime by almost all the countries on earth, including eventually (with a shamefully long delay) the US. The Holocaust has (justly!) become the prototype of genocide, a synonym for Crime against Humanity. There were several other genocides in the 20th century – enough to mention the Armenian genocide by Turks (which preceded and inspired the Holocaust) or the Tutsi genocide by Hutu in Rwanda (which was even more "efficient" than the Holocaust). However, while other genocides are still struggling even to be acknowledged, the Holocaust is the only genocide which is considered unquestionable to the extent that its denial is in some countries a criminal offence. No other genocide even comes close to the 250 memorial museums and research institutes dedicated to the Holocaust around the world, and no other genocide survivors have been financially compensated like the persecuted Jews. In such a world, whoever cries "anti-semitism" twice a day has an extremely heavy burden of proof to shoulder.

 

The State of Israel has always been cynically exploiting allegations of anti-semitism, condemning purported and cooperating with actual anti-semites at will. Last week, to quote just a minor example, when the world was outraged by Italy's monarch Berlusconi's claim that his fascist predecessor Mussolini "had not killed anybody but just sent people to holidays in exile" – which comes fairly close to Holocaust denial – the only official Israeli reaction was that of an unnamed spokesman for the 2nd Minister in the Ministry of Finance, who mumbled that "If the words have been said (!), one can not agree with them, since History speaks for itself" (Ha'aretz 14.9, p.12 bottom). The reason for this ear-deafening outcry is simple: Berlusconi, like most right-wing extremists, has taken a decisive pro-Israel stand in Europe. So let him even deny the Holocaust if he likes, Israel will show understanding. After all, Israel was a closest ally of the most racist regime in the post-WWII era, South Africa's Apartheid: moral considerations have never played any role whatsoever in Israel's politics and diplomacy.

 

On a state level, some may excuse it as Realpolitik. The institutionalised pro-Israel lobby has compromised its integrity to such an extent, that I won't be surprised if, say, the Anti-Defamation League, which cries anti-semitic wolf on a daily basis, now hails the fascist apologist Berlusconi as a distinguished statesman; Actually, precisely this world-record of hypocricy has taken place this very week. Much more disturbing is the intensive resorting to "anti-semitism" claims by Jewish individuals and institutions who do try to maintain a look of integrity.Such claims take many creative forms: for example, some Jews have a morally repulsive pastime of looking for worst cases of oppression – Russian atrocities in Chechnya (whose veterans, by the way, join the Israeli army), Chinese in Tibet – which supposedly "prove" that the media focus on Israel is anti-semitically motivated. As if it were not outrageous enough to be on the shortlist of evil-doers, as if only the gold medal in this satanic competition, but not bronze or silver, is worthy of protest. And I wonder how many of those arm-chair pro-Israel Tibet specialists ever bothered to actually do something to free Tibet, except for exploiting its suffering to distract from Israel's atrocities.

 

The abuse of alleged anti-semitism is morally despicable. It took hundreds of years and millions of victims to turn anti-semitism – a specific case of racism which led historically to genocide – into a taboo. People abusing this taboo in order to support Israel's racist and genocidal policy towards the Palestinians do nothing less than desecrate the memory of those Jewish victims, whose death, from a humanistic perspective, is meaningful only inasmuch as it serves as an eternal warning to the human kind against all kinds of discrimination, racism, and genocide.

 

Moreover, portraying the victimisers as victims – a standard characteristic of anti-Palestinian propaganda – is precisely what anti-semitism has always done: in blood-libels which portrayed defenceless Jewish victims as victimisers of Christians children, or in the ultimate accusation of Christ killing, which abused the persecution of early Christians to legitimate the persecution of Jews once the balance of power changed. Thus, evoking Jewish victims of the past to defend Jewish victimisers of the present –remember that Israel has one of the mightiest armies on earth – is a moral fault on a par with, and embarrassingly similar to, anti-semitism itself.

 

Happy New Year 5764.

 

–Ran HaCohen

[Jagat]

This is an excellent article. It does not excuse real anti-Semitism when it arises, as it did in the VNN articles. There was much that was neutral in those articles, but the overall intent was clear--it was arguing that a Jewish conspiracy exists, whose object is to dominate and control the world.

 

What "control and dominate" the world actually means, I don't know. It is such a meaningless statement that it virtually screams "paranoia"! The articles both concluded with brief reference to Vaishnava "world domination" (prithivite ache jata nagaradi grama and all that), indicating that Vaishnavism is a competitor with Judaism for this nebulous object.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Vaishnava world domination? How could that be when politicians are so highly denigrated in Vaishnava thought?

Prabhupada said many times that devotees have no ambition for political position. Seeking political office is a material ambition and Vaishnavas have no desire to hold political office.

 

I think Prabhupada's vision was more along the line of self-sufficient varnashram farms that will survive the breakdown of the world order due to wars, famine and drought.

 

Self-preservation through varnashram, as an example to lead the world towards a golden-age of modern man, is a better analysis of Vaishnava perspective than is world domination.

 

There is no militant element of Vaishnavism. If Vaishnavism has any element of world domination in it's philosophy, it is by the power of beauty and bliss and not through controlling the money or the weapons the demons are seeking.

[Guruvani]

Anyone who has read the Bible knows that the Jews acquired their land they call their homeland by the genocide of the indigenous peoples. Of course this is all justified because some voice from the sky (god) told them to take the land and kill everything that breathed including children, women, animals etc.

 

Israel came to be through the genocide of the indigenous tribes. The creation of the nation of Israel by the U.N. after WW11 is an endorsement of that genocide and the promotion of Biblical authority. Therefore the U.N. has become an instrument of the Biblical religion and a clear violation of the intended purpose of the U.N.

 

 

[Guest guest]

the bible is mostly myth not history,

it was created as propaganda,

 

scholars believe the canaanites and hebrews

were the same people,

 

http://dannyreviews.com/h/Bible_History.html

 

[Guest guest]

The Canaanites

 

The inhabitants of Palestine during the first two millenia BCE are today collectively known as the Canaanites. The name has ancient roots. For instance, the Tell el-Amarna letters written by Syrian and Palestinian governors to Egyptian Pharaohs the lands and peoples of Palestine were referred to as Kinahhi, Kinahni, and Kinahna; and earlier still in Egyptian inscriptions, in the form Ka-n-'-na. The Semitic root from which it derives is probably kana, which means "low" both in the sense of lowlands and in the sense of "humble, dispicable, or subjected". It is probably the latter, perjorative, sense that the Egyptians applied the word to the small settlements and towns of the region. The lands of the Canaanites had little intrinsic value to their Egyptian overlords, but the traderoutes between Egypt and the civilizations of the Hittites and Syrians passed through them, so the Egyptians maintained guerrisons at various sites along the road that passed through Canaan.

 

In later days, some of the Canaanites played a major role in trade by sea throughout the Mediterranean and are remembered by us today as the Phoenecians, the same people who are credited with having spread the use of the Semitic alphabetic system of writing to many other lands.

 

The Mystery of the Hebrews

 

Just where the Biblical Hebrews came from and how they fit into the landscape of Canaan has long been a perplexing question to scholars who are interested in the area. Archaeology has done little toward documenting the existence or origins of the Hebrews or of corroborating the biblical version of their rise to prominence within the mountainous regions of Palestine. Part of the difficulty in finding the relevant archaeological data is that the Hebrews and Canaanites had little that distinguished them from each other in their material culture. They built homes that used the same floor plans. Their wells were dug in the same way. Their pottery does not differ in definitive ways. So it is unclear in the archaeological record of a site when Canaanite habitation gave way to Hebrew occupation.

 

Similarly, the study of ancient documents has revealed little about biblical history at the time of the preMonarchy Hebrew people. For instance, Egyptian records do not document the existence of biblical events such as the Exodus or wars of conquest by the Hebrews in Canaan. Such silence about events on as grand a scale as those reported in the Hebrew scriptures would be surprising if the biblical account is accurate. This has led most contemporary scholars to view the biblical version of events as retrospective glorification of the roots of the Monarchy, as legend rather than history. What data is available from outside the Hebrew Bible remains sparse enough that a consensus does not yet exist about the best secular reconstruction of the process that culminated in the Hebrew Monarchy. Nevertheless, some things can be said today that were not known even a few decades ago.

 

First, we know now that during the 18th Dynasty through Third Intermediate Period of Egyptian history, the lands south of what came to be known as Judah, the mountainous wastelands around Midian, Moab, and the mountains of Se`ir (Edom), were the central homeland of pastoral-nomadic nomads whom the Egyptians called the Shasu (Redford, 1992, Pp. 257-280). They were cattle-herders who wandered on foot in yearly cycles in search for forage between their home-base lands east of the Arabah and areas as distant as northern Syria and Egypt. We also know from the lists from Soleb and Amarah that the Shasu were associated with the worship of a storm god called Yhw, a short form of the Hebrew name of the God of Moses, in the late fifteenth century BCE. By the end of the thirteenth century BCE, the Shasu had begun to adopt a sedentary village way of life in the Judaean hill country that was patterned after that of the Canaanite settlements of the coastal lowlands

 

for more on this

http://www.bibleinterp.com/commentary/Finkelstein_Silberman022001.htm