Natural disciplic succession

Kulapavana · September 17, 2003

I have found a nice statement in an older thread (forgive me Babhru for dragging it out... ;-)

Stonehearted: "There has beena misconception that Srila Prabhupada appointed 11 disciples as successor spiritual masters. The history shows that this is not what he did; he was formalizing what has previously been informal arrangements for chanting on beads and selecting disciples' names, and adding to that the responsibility for deciding who was fit for initiation, for the remainder fo his stay with us. This was to accommdate his declining health. This became understood as an appointment of successors, something he decried throughout his preaching as a cause for the breakup of his guru's institution, Sri Gaudiya Math.

This misunderstanding and the problems/abuses it spawned have generated a reaction in the form of an assertion that Srila Prabhupada named these folks as the first ritviks to initiate new disciples as his disciples within ISKCON for as long as the institution existed. This idea (popularly referred to as "ritvikphilosophy") is as mistaken as the first.

If you read all of Srila Prabhupada's books and lisen to all of his lectures, the only conclusion you can reasonably draw is that he intended to train his disciples to become fit to serve as spiritual masters after his disappearance. I have many old, dear friends in the ritvik camp. I understand and am very sympathetic with the concerns that move them to advocate this idea. No one has yet made the case, though, that this is what Srila Prabhupada intended--at least to my satisfaction."

I had come to the same conclusion in the early 80's and still support this wiew. That is exactly how our parampara worked for many centuries.

Govindaram · September 17, 2003

Ritvik! Ritvik! Ritvik!

Another thread 'about ?' another headache.

Kulapavana · September 17, 2003

While controversial, it is an important issue. In our tradition all proper gurus represent the sampradaya. Our tradition did not start, and will not end, with Srila Prabhupada.

Kulapavana · September 18, 2003

Alpa-medhasa:..."in traditional (ideal) Vedic society, one who is trained up as a brahmin, and retains that qualification, can become a guru. The brahmins are the spiritual masters of society. In our pancharaatra tradition, we allow individuals to become brahmins even if they are not born as seminal brahmins. But in any case, the point is that as long as the individual is trained up as a brahmin, has studied the scriptures, and has at least sad-aachaara level of behavior, then he can become a spiritual master. Of course, as far as we are concerned, the brahmin should also be a devotee of Lord Krishna, and one who knows our Gaudiya Vaishnava conclusions as Srila Prabhupada taught them."

Most of the problems in our devotee society can be traced to abandoning or disregarding the Vedic standards.

Kulapavana · September 18, 2003

More on the acceptance between a guru and disciple:

Acceptance is, by definition of our tradition, a process where BOTH guru and disciple accept each other in order to complete the link to the parampara. That is the shastric proces. Do not contaminate our tradition with such un-Vedic concepts as "no need for a living guru to agree to accept you into parampara".

Each acharya in our sampradaya MUST be viewed in the context of our tradition. That is part of our check and balance system, preventing overzealous disciples from taking words of their guru and inventing their own tradition

You have to consider what is the rule first. Vedas allow all kinds of exceptions to the general rules provided that there is a very good reason for it. Guru/disciple relationship is both instructional and mystical (and that includes personal sentiment, often carried from birth to birth) but the rule is clearly that of physical acceptance on BOTH sides.

Govindaram · September 18, 2003

When you have problems in life

then having a 'living Guru' can be nice

even essential in certain circumstances

I say this with personal experience.

It depends all on the person,

but Krishna within your

heart helps too.

Ps.I have no diksa guru yet.

Kulapavana · September 18, 2003

"...but Krishna within your heart helps too.."

Most certainly... many times in my devotional life I followed that voice and was never disappointed. After all, this is the voice that led me to Krishna Consciousness in the first place :-)