Demonic natures also part of Krishna???

[tovishal2001]

I read in Bhagvadgita (asitis.com) that all human are part or an atom of Krishna,supreme Godhead of world or we can say a small part of God exists inside every creature.

Krishna created this material world.So there is nothing else in this world than Krishna and his parts(creatures,human,also his material creation including earth and other planet systems).

So i have 2 questions now. Please answer them with patience /images/graemlins/smile.gif thanks.

1.If God created this world and all creatured including human and also according to bhagvadgita human are part/parcell of himself then,

why he punishes his own parts(human) when they turn demonic/bad ????...

2. If there is nothing else than Krishna(assuming due to his wish/desire this material world exists) in this world then a simple question arises....why Krishna created it?????? (ok...this is hardest question i guess...)

Thanks...

[I_love_krishna_]

Q: If God created this world and all creatured including human and also according to bhagvadgita human are part/parcell of himself then,

why he punishes his own parts(human) when they turn demonic/bad ????...

 

Answer: he is like fire, fire gives you light, but it can also burn you. In the same way, we can be in the spiritual world, where krishna gives us light. Or, we can chose to be the in the material world, where krishna's energy hurts us.

 

We are not human/animal/any creatures, we are pure spirit souls which are like small sparks of the big fire called krishna.

 

Q: If there is nothing else than Krishna(assuming due to his wish/desire this material world exists) in this world then a simple question arises....why Krishna created it?????? (ok...this is hardest question i guess...)

 

Answer: He created it because we wanted to be like him, we did not want our place in the spiritual world, so we left him. Then he created this material world for us to live in and be like him, so that we slowly realize that we cannot be him and thus return back to him.

 

[tovishal2001]

sorry but where it is said or written???

 

"He created it because we wanted to be like him, we did not want our place in the spiritual world, so we left him. Then he created this material world for us to live in and be like him, so that we slowly realize that we cannot be him and thus return back to him. "

[I_love_krishna_]

It is taken from Gita, but is also in bhagavatham (I think), I am not entirely sure, but I read it on the KC website /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

 

 

Here is the source of my answer to your question:

http://www.krishna.com/gita/main/topics/Jiva/index.htm

Who am I? The face I see every morning in the mirror? The eyes that scrutinize it? The heartbeats within my chest? Or the thoughts that race through my brain while I am wondering about all this?

 

According to the ancient Vedic scriptures, I am none of these things. I am an eternal soul -- a jiva -- stuck within a city of nine gates (two eyes, two ears, two nostrils, the mouth, rectum and genital).

 

"When the upper point of a hair is divided into one hundred parts and again each of such parts is further divided into one hundred parts, each such part is the measurement of the dimension of the spirit soul." This amazing statement from the Svetasvatara Upanishad explains why scientists have not been able to see the soul through their microscopes. Atomic in size, the soul nonetheless is so powerful that it animates the entire body with consciousness. It is situated within the heart, and when it leaves the body, the red corpuscles that carry the oxygen from the lungs can no longer gather energy from the soul. As a result, the activity of the blood, generating fusion, ceases; the heart stops beating; and the entire body disintegrates.

 

What happens to the soul then?

 

"For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time," the Bhagavad-gita explains. "He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain" (Bg. 2.20). "As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from childhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered by such a change" (Bg. 2.13). "As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, the soul similarly accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones" (Bg. 2.22).

 

"Whatever state of being . . ."

 

What's the point?

 

The atomic soul (jiva) is part and parcel of the supreme whole, equal to God in quality. Both are eternal, full of bliss and knowledge, but they are not quantitatively equal. Whether embodied or in its pure spiritual state, the jiva remains atomic in size, just as the sunshine molecules remain atomic particles of sunshine. The sunshine is simultaneously one with and different from the sun globe: it is one in quality in terms of heat and light, but not in quantity. Similarly, the jiva always remains a part of the supreme whole.

 

Throughout the Vedas, the supreme whole is known as Krsna. Being the supreme energetic source of everything, Krsna has innumerable energies, which are categorized in three main divisions: internal, external, and marginal. The internal or superior energy manifests the spiritual variegatedness of the kingdom of God; the external or inferior energy manifests the cosmic creation; and the marginal energy comprises the countless particles of consciousness known as jivas.

 

Just as the limbs of the body are meant to serve the whole body, the jivas are meant to serve the Supreme Being. But their infinitesimal size makes them prone to become influenced by the Lord's external energy. Under such influence, some jivas choose to misidentify themselves as independent enjoyers. In other words, they become God's competitors. Although it is an impossible dream, Krsna, "who has been fulfilling everyone's desire since time immemorial" (Isopanisad, 8), fulfills their desire by creating this world of matter. This material world is a perverted reflection of the spiritual world. Here the rebellious jivas are free to enact fantasies in one of 8,400,000 types of bodies created by the external, illusory energy.

 

When the jivas enter the material energy, they are subjected to past, present and future. Under time's influence, and overpowered by fear, they suffer greatly. The only remedy is to resume service to the Lord. The jivas, however, cannot reach this conclusion by their own efforts, because they have forgotten their real identity as spirit souls. They consider themselves products of the material energy.

 

As the supreme father of all jivas, Krsna is most kind and compassionate. Therefore He personally comes to speak Bhagavad-gétä, and He sends His confidential servants to act as spiritual masters. As the Supersoul within everyone's heart, He gives us a conscience, with which we can accept the Vedas and a spiritual master.

 

Through the study of Bhagavad-gétä, the jiva comes to understand his true position as Krsna's servant. Then, under the direction of the expert spiritual master, he engages his senses, mind and intelligence in the service of Krsna. Such practice gradually raises us to the platform of transcendental loving service unto the Lord and culminates in the attainment of a blissful, intimate relationship with Krsna -- the perfection of life.

[anadi]

Demonic is a material feature

rising from the contact with the illusory energy of the Lord.

 

Sri Krishna does not come in direct contact with the illusory feature of His para Sakti.

 

Sri Krishna is always in pure, transcendental goodness, Suddha satva and pure bliss as His own transcendental realm and His associates,

in all three categories (caya viuha, nitya siddha, sadhana siddha).

 

As a sadhana siddha to come in the spiritual world means that the real object of love

(The all Attractive one - Sri Krishna) has revealed Himself into one’s heart,

by those missing two inches that were needed to tie Damodhara,

one’s sadhana, and the mercy of Krishna.

 

Suddha-sattva-viSeZAtmA prema-sUryAMsu-sAmyabhAk

rucibhis-citta-mAsRNya-kRd asau bhAva ucyate

 

When in the heart

the pure goodness Suddha-sattva and

the pure love – hladini Shakti whose Presiding transcendental Deity is Radha

come together,

the rays of the sun of prema (pure love) - prema-sUryAMsu is manifested sAmyabhAk

and a mellow of tastes – rucibhis are melting completely– mAsRNya the heart – citta …

( Bhakti-rasAmRta-sindhu, 1.3.1)

 

Even one who attained bhava is beyond the modes of material nature,

and has no other wish than to attain the deities of his mantra.

 

In the spiritual world there is no influence of the external illusory potency (maha) maya,

namely there is no influence of the goodness, passion and ignorance of this world.

How can any associate of Krishna be influenced by envy, when there is no envy

(no material modes of nature) in the spiritual world?,

 

No acarya wrote such a thing!

[I_love_krishna_]

Oh wow, Thank you for clearing that up. So, the better explanation is we were illusioned by his maya /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Thank you again prabhu.

[tovishal2001]

"Atomic in size, the soul nonetheless is so powerful that it animates the entire body with consciousness. It is situated within the heart, and when it leaves the body, the red corpuscles that carry the oxygen from the lungs can no longer gather energy from the soul. As a result, the activity of the blood, generating fusion, ceases; the heart stops beating; and the entire body disintegrates. "

I have 2 questions now.

1.IS it soul who thinks when it is in body and not the brain?

2.When soul leaves body can it think?...(i mean when i will die...can i see ..surely i won't have eyes after leaving body!!!...so how souls behave when not in body?

And soul has any senses when it is not in body?

OR

in one line i would ask soul has his own identity(thinking,sensing) ?

thanks. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[I_love_krishna_]

All I know is that I am consciousness, I am not sure if you can think, see and smell with out a body in this material world.

 

But in the spiritual world, I think you can see, smell think, etc in the spiritual world with out a body. But to serve, you need some type of a body , even if it is a body of a piece of grass that krishna walks on. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

 

 

[tovishal2001]

Your answer was satisfactory to me ...thanks /images/graemlins/smile.gif...I liked your grass-example /images/graemlins/smile.gif

But i got one more question.

If soul is part and parcel of Shri Krishna(supreme personality of Godhead) then how it can think different than GOD? or how a soul can have wishes(in spiritual world)???

 

Because as u said Krishna sent us here in material world because we wanted tobe like him....so how we(as part and parcel of Shri Krishna) can have wishes in spiritual world and think different than GOD???

 

"He created it because we wanted to be like him, we did not want our place in the spiritual world, so we left him. Then he created this material world for us to live in and be like him, so that we slowly realize that we cannot be him and thus return back to him. "

 

thanks /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[yasodanandana]

"so how we(as part and parcel of Shri Krishna) can have wishes in spiritual world and think different than GOD???"

 

because vaikunta is the realm of the variety.. we as conditioned soul identify variety with rebellion and we do not imagine how one can be trascendentally faithful and free at the same time

 

or

 

radha and the gopis are not slaves, they are the supreme freedom personified

 

 

[Gauracandra]

There is an ancient Christian philosophy, considered heretical, called manicheanism. It basicallys sets up the world on a stage of a cosmic battle between good and evil. Even religions not of Christian origin, that have this concept, are often called Manichean. It tries to set up God, and a counterbalance to God who is trying to win this great battle. The counterbalance is material and evil, while God is spiritual and good. I suppose in Vaisnavism we have something similar and disimilar. We don't really have a personality that is the competitor to God. However, in the story of the churning of the milk ocean, the battle between the devas and asuras might be considered Manichean. Just something that came to mind.

[Guest guest]

'The atomic soul (jiva) is part and parcel of the supreme whole, equal to God in quality. Both are eternal, full of bliss and knowledge, but they are not quantitatively equal. Whether embodied or in its pure spiritual state, the jiva remains atomic in size, just as the sunshine molecules remain atomic particles of sunshine. The sunshine is simultaneously one with and different from the sun globe: it is one in quality in terms of heat and light, but not in quantity. Similarly, the jiva always remains a part of the supreme whole. '

So God is the sunshine and we are the individual molecules (or protons or whatever) . But this means that God also encompasses us, as you have written. However according to you, the individual jivas themselves are not God. (sorry if I am being confusing here, this is what I understand from the Hare Krishna philosophy: God is all the jivas and more, but a jiva is not quantiatively equal to God)

HOWEVER by doing this you are drawing a line between the jiva and God, which is a bit weird (to me). It is like a drop of water in the ocean : it still is a drop of water in quantity and the ocean encompasses it but how can you say a drop of water in the ocean is separate from it? it 'seems' to be seaparate from it because the drop of water does not realise hey i am basically water and this quantitative thing is not really relevant because after all there is only water here and what I am in essence is the same as the ocean, and that IS realisation.

I read in this forum that 'Krishna does not have a begining: yet he was the first' which is very beautiful but to me a more correct sentence would be 'Krishna does not have a begining, he was always there'. Just like the Lord says in the Gita ' At no point of time did I not exist'. If he always existed whatever there is including you and me has to be him. Please note I am not saying 'has to be a part of him separate from him' I am saying everything has to be Him, because only He(She/It) exists.

This is I think the main dispute between advaitya and hare krishna... would be interesting to disscuss this ?

respect and regards

Amol

 

[I_love_krishna_]

Prabhu, you can discuss it with me, but I would end the conversation by saying you are half right.

 

Krishna is everything that we see around us here, he pervades everything= vishnu . however, when you say we are him , then that would be wrong. The preposterousness in this type of thinking is easy to see with an example.

 

When we compare ourself to the supreme and if we consider ourself to be a water molecule then,He would be the entire creation. How can you say that a single water molecule is the entire creation itself?

 

that would be wrong. If you want to say He is you, then you are absolutely right, but you are not Him. We are the individualized consciousness and he is the all encompassing consciousness, there is a great difference.

 

So, please do not delude yourself into thinking that you are him, that would be just make another pit of self aggrandizement for you to fall into.

[transient]

Dear Guest,

 

Here is a response to your post.

 

The example of the sunrays as jivas to the sun globe as God (or sunshine molecules to the sunshine) and a drop of water to the ocean as analogies to the relationship between jivas and God are not perfect examples as these are material objects. A drop of water merges into the ocean as the sunshine particles to the sun globe AND THEY LOSES THEIR INDIVIDUALITY. On the other hand, the jivas and God are all enternally individuals and DOES NOT LOSE THEIR INDIVIDUALITY AT ANY TIME. When the jiva attains perfection and goes back to Vaikuntha, he retains his own individuality and continues his loving relationship with God. This is the Vaishnava perspective.

 

Therefore the individual jiva will not ever become God (the Supreme Soul). However because the jiva has the same quality (spiritual) as with God, he can be considered as god in that sense only -- same quality with God. But not the all powerful Supreme Personality of Godhead, the Supreme Soul, Krishna. We have all the tendencies as God's but these are all infinitesimal compared with God's. This our problem, realising our godly tendencies, we aim for the ultimate. This is an illusion; thinking that we can become God.

 

Successful impersonalists who had achieved merging into the brahmajoyti, the white light coming from the spiritual world, thinks that what they had achieved is the highest reality and they think they had become God by merging into this great ocean of light. But why is it that they cannot remain there forever? Why is it that they come down again into this material world and spread the "good news" that we too can become God? It is because the eternally individual jiva cannot remain inactive forever. He needs activities, he needs relationships. This is a very strong evidence that we're all unique individuals. Impersonalists may think that these individualities are all dreams and illusions and they may be correct. Because surely, they are only dreaming... and they are all in illusion...

[Guest guest]

thank you for your posts, I would like to comment on both the replies to my post here.

firstly to i_love_krishna

I agree with you that if we like a single molecule of water and the ocean is God, then in that relationship saying that we are God would be preposterous. But that relationship is not a valid one BECAUSE there is nothing to distingush that molecule of water from rest of the ocean. the ocean is the collective molecules of water (God) and the jiva is a single moecule thinking it is different when infact it has the same essence. I think it is how u look at it. we can never be Krishna becuase we live and think in a relative world where everyhting is related to each other, Krishna or God is in his absolute world where there is only krishna, if we(where 'we' is a part of the relative worl) riase our conciousness to the absolute plane of Krishna conciousness then only Krishna IS .. so at that point i wont like to say we become krishna, i would say we realise we were krishna all along.

secondly to transient,

you have said merging into god will mean losing ur individuality, but the way advaita sees it (according to my limited understanding) is that God is jivas and more. So the jivas merging into God wont lose their indivduality, they will instead GAIN the conciousness of od which includes them and everything else.

its like a person blind in one eye (jiva), who gets the other eye sight back (merging).. would u say he has lost the eyesight of the first eye. is his experience of seeing in anyway diminished now tht he can see with two eye? NO it is only ENHANCED.

also i would like to add before i finish that I have used the word (merging)while comparing the gaining of eyesight in the other eye, but what i feel is the jivas are ALREADY merged. they realise it when they attain krishna conciousness... its like Krishna realising hes Krishna while all arround him Krishna observes and exists. .bit weird yea!