Can initiated brahmanas (SBSSP) perform marriage ceremonies for non-devotees?

[Guest guest]

This is probably a strange question, but I have to ask.

 

I've noticed there are some strong devotees, some of whom initiated by Srila Prabhupad, who perform marriage ceremonies for devotees. I've also noticed that some temples are providing these services for non-devotees. Are there any guidelines for doing such a thing? I am very curious, thanks.

[Guest guest]

i'm not 100% sure.. but i remember froma harisaury's "srila prabhupada's diary" that prabhupada was not against that iskcon brahmins celebrate not devotees marriages... but in separate halls and not before deities

 

or

 

it is not possible to marry before iskcon deities without following 4 regulative principles

 

yasoda-nandana-dasa

[Priitaa]

If the 'temple' is proving them marriages, how can they be 'nondeovtees?' This would be my question. A nondevotee would have no interest in a Vedic wedding. Maybe you could clarify?

[Priitaa]

 

i'm not 100% sure.. but i remember froma harisaury's "srila prabhupada's diary" that prabhupada was not against that iskcon brahmins celebrate not devotees marriages... but in separate halls and not before deities

 

 

Original marriages in the beginning of the movement took place in front of the Deities, and even later on. Prabhupada was not against marriage in front of Deities, but since there was a high failure rate in marriages, therefore first to perfom a ceremony not in front of Deities, tho maybe later one could do that if there was ample evidence the marriage was working. What I find more disturbing is that the temples would give marriage ceremony to Hindus in front of Deities and not to their own congregation! This was for $$$. If we could have paid, they would have done it for us to. I wonder if this changed?

 

 

it is not possible to marry before iskcon deities without following 4 regulative principles

 

 

My next, sad, concern is that many new devotees and some gurukuli's (who took initiation) do not accept, or some do not know, tho others have not been informed, that you are NOT suppose to have sex after marriage except to have a baby. Then once there is pregnancy, celibacy. One (adult) kid told me about this newly married young couple who were 'going at it,' and when I mentioned no sex, they thought I was nuts, and replied they are married! While this is not illicit sex, it still binds one to the material world and is not what Prabhupada wanted for those who choose to take initiation.

 

Though I must add, many are not being informed that there should not be sex after marriage. Prabhupada said sex for procreation, not recreation. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

But not to limit it to the youth. Most householders fall down regularly and hide it, even have made it part of their lifestyle rather than at least trying to fight the urge, or to sleep separate or other ways to provice facility to make it easier for celibacy. Even some temple devotees with big reputation as staunch, are doing like this. Not everyone of course, but in the early days devotees had such a taste for Krishna consciousness and WANTED to be celibate. Even if there was fall down it was not something made acceptable. Now it seems things have changed. But if we water down the process we need to accept we have watered down the results too.

[Guest guest]

What I didn't like is that even though my husband is initiated and I am not (but I follow the regs), we still weren't allowed to be married with the deities present. The stricter ISKCON temples will only allow the deities to be present if both bride and groom are initiated. I think they usually cite the marriage failure rate. But I always thought that was dumb since the divorce rate among initiated devotees isn't necessarily lower than the uninitiated.

 

However, temples with Gaura Nitai or Panca Tattva deities will often let the deities be present, even for the uninitiated. Guess I just got married at the wrong temple.

[yasodanandana]

i appreciate your answer... the 3rd principle subject is very delicate and difficult..

 

surely i have not to criticize who, as a human being, has difficulties to follow exactly

 

but one should admit that he's not doing well and chant harekrishna to ask the help of god, without concocting new interpretations of the words of the spiritual master

 

or... it is a disciple-master affair

 

or.. with all these problems with pedophilia, guru falling (for sex) and so on in our movement (excuse me, but even if i am disciple of srila puri maharaja, i consider myself part of iskcon and prabhupada follower), it is a problem not so easy to resolve

 

basically, who is chaste and renounced, has not to preach too much, he has to show with his devotion and happiness how it is good and valuable to follow the rules and regulations

 

in my humble opinion

[yasodanandana]

"A nondevotee would have no interest in a Vedic wedding....."

 

in all religions there are people who perform ceremonies or sacraments wihout having a real or a big interest in spirituality

 

i have seen thousands of catholic marriages in cathedrals of people who will not come back in a church for the rest of the life

[Guest guest]

Haribol prabhu,

 

Thank you for your comments. I have some points to add.

 

"A nondevotee would have no interest in a Vedic wedding....."

 

in all religions there are people who perform ceremonies or sacraments wihout having a real or a big interest in spirituality

 

 

One does not need to have big interst to be considered a devotee. I remember one story where Prabhupada had been preaching to this 'karmi' woman who wore red lipstick, regular clothes (probably regular length skirts, etc), modern hair-do and looked nothing like a devotee. Yet, Prabhupada said she was a devotee simply beause she said Krishna is the Supreme Persnality of Godhead.

 

i have seen thousands of catholic marriages in cathedrals of people who will not come back in a church for the rest of the life

 

 

They are still devotees. Maybe they worship at home, maybe they are weak in their spiritual life, but they are remain devotees.

 

I mention all this because when I first joined the movement, many who lived in the temple did not give recognition to the countless devotees who did not, but lived at home and were like FOLK members (tho we did not have FOLK to offer them a recognized connection at the time). They would not say these people who came to Sunday Feasts, etc., were devotees, but they were.

 

YS,

Prtha dd

[Guest guest]

 

i appreciate your answer... the 3rd principle subject is very delicate and difficult..

 

surely i have not to criticize who, as a human being, has difficulties to follow exactly

 

but one should admit that he's not doing well and chant harekrishna to ask the help of god, without concocting new interpretations of the words of the spiritual master

 

or... it is a disciple-master affair

 

or.. with all these problems with pedophilia, guru falling (for sex) and so on in our movement (excuse me, but even if i am disciple of srila puri maharaja, i consider myself part of iskcon and prabhupada follower), it is a problem not so easy to resolve

 

 

Haribol Yasodanandana,

 

Thank you for your kind reply and points. I hope you dont mind if I post more, as I just posted one to you, but am just having fun. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

And boy, there is so much I could say about this topic, but will try to keep it as simple as possible.

 

I agree, there is no criticism for those who are human but falling down. It is those who are human and making it acceptable, not trying to overcome it, and in some cases, justifying it as no big deal or ok, this is what I am talking about. This watering down of the process to make ourselves advanced without being advanced is cheating. But those who admit, and preach the truth, they are far better then those who play a game with it.

 

While it is a guru-disciple affair, it still remains a fact that Prabhupada very clearly and specifically did not want "initiated" disciples to engage in sex. So, there is nothing that needs to be asked any guru, as most are just trying to find some angle around it if they do that. Better to just be honest IMHO.

 

Now the problem of pedophilia, I have studied this, and it is a misunderstanding that children become molested by men who can't have sex with a woman. Maybe once in a rare case that happens, but really, only a sick man would act on such a thing. No matter how lusty he gets, a sane man will not use a child in this way. No. Only a pedophile would. They were all ready pedophiles, you see. It is an illness, and not the result of celibacy. Even the catholics are making this mistake, thinking the priests are molesting children because they have taken vows of celibacy. Again, while a few may, most priests who indulge in this pedophile activity were all ready pedophiles. Getting married won't stop them. They will just have sex with their wife and with children TOO! This is a fact. Anyone doubts, just do some research before making argument. I've done some research on it in the past.

 

Although if we want to take it from that point of view just for a moment, that in ISKCON there is pedophila because the men can't keep their vows and want sex, then they should not have taken initiation. Everyone wants initiation, but then they want to change their mind and say they can't follow. We need to remember, the guru takes our karma on his head, so whlie it can be acceptable to be honest about it being difficult, but to make it ok is wrong.

 

basically, who is chaste and renounced, has not to preach too much, he has to show with his devotion and happiness how it is good and valuable to follow the rules and regulations

 

 

I dont exaclty understand what you are trying to say here, but Prabhupada started a preaching movement, tho granted, if one is weak they cannot preach. First we have to save ourselves. But that can go on forever ha so at some point even tho we are not pure devotees, we must preach, as that too is a way to get purified. One problem is, I dont think they can show with their deovtion and happiness how it is good and valuable to follow the rules and regulations, because in most cases, when there is sexual agitation, the way to avoid its increase is to get active! Move, work, run, chop wood and carry water. /images/graemlins/smile.gif So preaching is active.

 

Forgive me, but I really dont think its delicate or difficult to figure out this topic. Maybe its delicate in the sense that we should not put anyone down who admits to their weakness or spread gossip, but Prabhupada's instructions are clear. Understanding it is simple for the simple, and difficult for the difficult. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

I surely agree that "one should admit that he's not doing well and chant harekrishna to ask the help of god, without concocting new interpretations of the words of the spiritual master." Thats it exaclty. And it is by chanting the Holy Names of "Hare Krishna" that purifies us of this nonsense, as long as its not merely mechanical, tho even that will birng some effects. But with heart and sincere endeavor, the effects are of large magnitude! We are so fortunate.

 

Thanks for listening.

 

YS,

Prtha dd

[Guest guest]

[qoute]What I didn't like is that even though my husband is initiated and I am not (but I follow the regs), we still weren't allowed to be married with the deities present.

 

 

[yasodanandana]

"One does not need to have big interst to be considered a devotee. I remember one story where Prabhupada had been preaching to this 'karmi' woman who wore red lipstick, regular clothes (probably regular length skirts, etc), modern hair-do and looked nothing like a devotee. Yet, Prabhupada said she was a devotee simply beause she said Krishna is the Supreme Persnality of Godhead. "

-i completely agree with you.. i do not identify a devote by his external features (saree or skirt..).... i understand also the meaning of the prabhupada lila

the word "devotee" can be used in many authentic ways, and all of them are right.. my acception, in this discussion is: "who practice harekrsna mantra on daily basis and have a form of appartenence to gaudya vaishnava sampradaya"

-------

"------

i have seen thousands of catholic marriages in cathedrals of people who will not come back in a church for the rest of the life

------

They are still devotees. Maybe they worship at home, maybe they are weak in their spiritual life, but they are remain devotees. "

 

- putting this in a gaudya vaishnava environment... the important thing to say is that ONLY THE CHANTING OF THE HOLY NAME has NO STRICT RULES and REGULATION.. everyone can chant , principles or not principles, he can be a killer, a terrorist, an aparadhi, one who chants as a joke or so..

But in pancharatrika (cerimonies, temple customs and deity worships) there are very strict rules and regulation,, so chant is free for everyone, evoking sri vishnu in the fire of the yajna and promitting something is not for unfit people

 

----------------

"I mention all this because when I first joined the movement, many who lived in the temple did not give recognition to the countless devotees who did not, but lived at home and were like FOLK members (tho we did not have FOLK to offer them a recognized connection at the time). They would not say these people who came to Sunday Feasts, etc., were devotees, but they were. "

-you are very right, srila prabhupada in his grihasta life, too were not considered a true devotee, but a guest, a friend of krsna by some "temple devotees".. let us say that the qualities, skills, dedication, devotion and so on, are to be recognized not by external considerations.. selection is not a bad thing, we are sometimes reacting to it only because in the past some one did it with fanatical and sectarian purposes

 

..

 

 

hare krishna mataji prabhu... keep on writing, i read your messages with interest

[yasodanandana]

"So, there is nothing that needs to be asked any guru"

- mmh.. i was not saying it to find some angles... i am very sure and i know directly some iskcon devotees who have obtained initiation saying to the (iskcon)spiritual master at what "degree" they can follow the 3rd principle and bearing in mind that the perfection has to be achieved, .... later

it is not watering, it is honesty.. the guru, if authentic and bona fide, has the power to accept it or not (and i appreciate much both guru and these disciples my close friends and great devotees)

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

"They were all ready pedophiles, you see. It is an illness, and not the result of celibacy."

-of course

 

i agree with all your evaluations on the pedophilia theme.. but it is not my point.. my point is simply that we have too many sex problems in our movement, a lot if we consider that "chastity" is to be the average condition among us.. so i am only saying: let us consider very carefully this problems and let us not debate them in a cheap way

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

------

"basically, who is chaste and renounced, has not to preach too much, he has to show with his devotion and happiness how it is good and valuable to follow the rules and regulations

------

I dont exaclty understand what you are trying to say here, but Prabhupada started a preaching movement"

 

-simply i am saying that if we have to be acharyas... or preachers with the example more than with words... this is especially to be followed on this subject where the hypocrisy is often very big

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

"One problem is, I dont think they can show with their deovtion and happiness how it is good and valuable to follow the rules and regulations, because in most cases, when there is sexual agitation, the way to avoid its increase is to get active! Move, work, run, chop wood and carry water. So preaching is active. "

- it is possible to be active in ignorance, passion and goodness.. so, activity, in itself, is not a sign of chastity or, the opposite... repression.

So i do not use this cathegory to judge who is chaste, or simply happy or also who is a preacher.

I am also frightened by people who hopes to repress tha sexual urge by iperactivity... the only way to be better persons is to chant hare krishna without offences, who is not fit for now to be chaste, it is better if he do not try to be it with mechanical and material systems, included trying to forget the problem trying to be ever moving, working, carrying etc.. sooner or later he will explode, with surely bad consequences for himself and the others

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

"Forgive me, but I really dont think its delicate or difficult to figure out this topic. Maybe its delicate in the sense that we should not put anyone down who admits to their weakness or spread gossip, but Prabhupada's instructions are clear. "

- it is delicate because it is the main problem of this movement on world basis, the goal is simple but to achieve it is not so.. for now , generally speaking and being honest, in our movement: "have sex only between husband and wife", or, "do not divorce" are almost a myth... what to say of "have sex only for begetting krsna conscious children"?????

 

Or maybe an instruction like that will be "realistic" for us only when the era of chaitanya mahaprabhu, the satya yuga inside kali yuga, will be more advanced?

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

 

[Guest guest]

Haribol Yasodananda prabhu,

 

Well, I'm still online, tho still not logged in. :-) Anyway, I have tme at the moment to answer, so here I am.

 

ME: "So, there is nothing that needs to be asked any guru"

 

YOU: - mmh.. i was not saying it to find some angles... i am very sure and i know directly some iskcon devotees who have obtained initiation saying to the (iskcon)spiritual master at what "degree" they can follow the 3rd principle and bearing in mind that the perfection has to be achieved, .... later it is not watering, it is honesty.. the guru, if authentic and bona fide, has the power to accept it or not (and i appreciate much both guru and these disciples my close friends and great devotees)"

 

Oh, I never meant it to sounds as if I thought you were trying to find some angle. I never thought that. But that others may try to do like that.

 

As far as asking what 'degree' it can be followed, there is no acceptable 'degree' a guru can authorize. Prabhupada never said to follow this regulative principle but only to a degree. I do agree tho, that this is what many do, but to do it in honesty with the goal of not falling down is acceptable, whereas we can't get it authorized by guru but must accept its karma on our own head as much as possible. (Tho he will take on much of it, which is what concerns me as well.)

 

YOU: "i agree with all your evaluations on the pedophilia theme.. but it is not my point.. my point is simply that we have too many sex problems in our movement, a lot if we consider that "chastity" is to be the normality among us.. so i am only saying, let us consider very carefully this problems and let us not debate them in a cheap way"

 

Not sure what you mean by debating it in a cheap way. If I am doing that, please point it out.

 

However, glad to hear you agree that pedophlies are not acting out becuase they can't get a woman, but because they always had this disease. I did my homework. :-)

 

But that we have so many sex problems in our movement has more to do with a lack of potency going on. In the old days, everyone was so into Krishna C that it was not hard to follow properly. There was something there. A deovtee once told me she asked Prabhupada if some of the very first devotees had experienced some Krishna Prema and he said yes! When we develop love of God, lust becomes disgusting. Not saying we should artifically think like this. No, cuz otherwise this is false renuncation and attraction and repulsion are the same thing really.

 

ME: "I dont exaclty understand what you are trying to say here, but Prabhupada started a preaching movement"

 

YOU: " -simply i am saying that if we have to be acharyas... or preachers with the example more than with words... this is especially to be followed on this subject where the hypocrisy is often very big"

 

Oh yes, hypocrisy is a big problem, without a doubt.

 

ME: "One problem is, I dont think they can show with their deovtion and happiness how it is good and valuable to follow the rules and regulations, because in most cases, when there is sexual agitation, the way to avoid its increase is to get active! Move, work, run, chop wood and carry water. So preaching is active. "

 

YOU: "- mmmh.. active is possible to be in ignorance, passion and goodness.. so, activity, in itself, is not a sign of chastity or repression. So i do not use this cathegory to judge who is chaste, or simply happy or also a preacher."

 

I am not saying to 'only' be active, but to 'aslo' be active. Activity has been proven to get the mind off sex, and lets face it, it all starts in the mind. ha So one can go out and preach or do temple service or chant (if they walk while chanting), etc., and by combining the two, it helps reduce sex deisre. This is not artificial repression, its more factual, like taking an aspirin gets rid of a headache.

 

YOU: "I am also frightened by who hopes to repress tha sexual urge by iperactivity... the only way to get better persons is to chant hare krishna without offences, who is not fit to be chaste, better not to try to be it with strange and material systems.. sooner or later he will explode, with surely bad consequences for him and the others (harer nama... there's no other way in this age of kali...)"

 

I agree there should not be repression, and Prabhupada himself says this is not a process of repression. I have read him say like that. The idea of it being repression, or possibly the way we think we are suppose to handle it (via repression) comes from us, and has absolutely nothing to do with real Krishna consciousness.

 

ME: "Forgive me, but I really dont think its delicate or difficult to figure out this topic. Maybe its delicate in the sense that we should not put anyone down who admits to their weakness or spread gossip, but Prabhupada's instructions are clear. "

 

YOU: " - it is delicate because it is the main problem of this movement on world basis, the goal is simple but to achieve it is not so

 

Well yes, but really, is not not more often rascals then the sincere who are causing the main problems? And by sincere I do not mean they dont fall down. Matter of fact, I rather have the associaiton of someone who is having sex regularly than someone who is so-called celibate but really meditating on it nightly, treating women and children, and humble brahmana's, with cruelty, passing it off as 'staunch.' Whereas in truth this is repression, but coupled with huge false ego. So give me the weak householder who is honestly stronger than the fanatical artificially staunch brahmacari /grhasta who has little sense control but is doing it thru the fake process of repression, hatred, false ego and so on, and have developed little taste for love of God, chanting, following properly does not inspire them very much. Honesty would be what actually helps such persons advance, not all this false renunciation.

 

Clear as mud, right? :-)

 

YS,

Prtha dd

[yasodanandana]

"As far as asking what 'degree' it can be followed, there is no acceptable 'degree' a guru can authorize"

-but a guru cannot kill or reject a disciple... : "if you can sincerely do like that.. do that and pray krsna to be soon at the required level"

 

"However, glad to hear you agree that pedophlies are not acting out becuase they can't get a woman, but because they always had this disease. I did my homework. :-)"

-the mistake was not that some "devotees" became pedophiles, the problem was that at the times the only way to be accepted as devotees was to live in the temple, and the authorities were very glad to accept everyone without discrimination to increase manpower (i am not discussing the intentions!!)

 

"But that we have so many sex problems in our movement has more to do with a lack of potency going on. "

-yes... krsna consciousness is superior to lust

 

" In the old days, everyone was so into Krishna C that it was not hard to follow properly"

- partially, we ever had many people coming and going in any time

 

"So one can go out and preach or do temple service or chant (if they walk while chanting), etc., and by combining the two, it helps reduce sex deisre. This is not artificial repression, its more factual, like taking an aspirin gets rid of a headache."

-yes it is ok... but you surely know how subtle can be the difference between hyperactivity to forget the problems or intense devotional service

 

" (if they walk while chanting)"

- nahh.. walk while chant to be tired and forget the sex?..... sure? (maybe i do not understand the language)

 

so... basically i agree with you.. only the "guru" subject remains

 

sorry for my basic english.. believe me if i say that i appear to be "arsh" and not kind because i do not know so many ways to say the same thing

[Priitaa]

Haribol Yasodanandana prabhu,

 

Oh, I think your English is fine. I grew up with a grandmother who spoke broken Italian, and what you type is easier to understand than what she spoke! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

ME:"As far as asking what 'degree' it can be followed, there is no acceptable 'degree' a guru can authorize"

 

YOU: -but a guru cannot kill or reject a disciple... : "if you can sincerely do like that.. do that and pray krsna to be soon at the required level"

 

Yes, but once the disciple takes initiation it is their responsibility to keep their promises. The guru is not rejecting the disciple by mainting a high standard. It is not that I mean to kick the diciple away, no. Simply that a guru must give only first class standard and keep giving it. If the disciple is haivng difficulty, the problem is theirs. (And usually a lack of feeling very Krisna C.) Though godbrothers or godsisters can give the type of advice you are suggesting above.

 

ME: "However, glad to hear you agree that pedophlies are not acting out becuase they can't get a woman, but because they always had this disease. I did my homework. :-)"

 

YOU: -the mistake was not that some "devotees" became pedophiles, the problem was that at the times the only way to be accepted as devotees was to live in the temple, and the authorities were very glad to accept everyone without discrimination to increase manpower (i am not discussing the intentions!!)"

 

True, they did not discriminate. There was something sweet to the concept of saving all souls and anyone could move in. But that does not mean it couldn't have been done a better way. Some investigation at least into those who would work with children, or even women, or even simple brahmacari's, should have been a requirement from the authorities.

 

ME: " In the old days, everyone was so into Krishna C that it was not hard to follow properly"

 

YOU: - partially, we ever had many people coming and going in any time

 

Not sure what you mean here, if the word 'ever' was suppose to be 'never,' that would not be the case. People were nearly breaking down our doors to join in the 70s. Or maybe you mean it hasn't happened since?

 

ME: "So one can go out and preach or do temple service or chant (if they walk while chanting), etc., and by combining the two, it helps reduce sex deisre. This is not artificial repression, its more factual, like taking an aspirin gets rid of a headache."

 

YOU: -yes it is ok... but you surely know how subtle can be the difference between hyperactivity to forget the problems or intense devotional service"

 

Hyperactivity may be there, but if it is, it always was. If people have issues they use hyperactivity to avoid dealing with, they are therefore in denial and giving them a resting place or something sattvic to do will not change that. I know because I've seen it over the years. Those who want to stay that way when the rest were changing, stayed that way even in the midst of change. There in denial and will stay in denial until they make a mental change.

 

But a preson doesn't become hyper from doing something thats medically a fact or biologically helpful. For example, I read of this one man who had extreme pain all the time. The doctors refused to give him anything for it because it required a strong drug. So the man was left nearly crippled. Finally he went to another country and got some morphine. He took it and it did not get him high, it only made him normal. He could finally walk around, drive, move, etc., but never was intoxicated. Why? Because when one is in *need* of something, the body/mind uses it beneficially. But when one is abusing the drug, or taking advanatage of anything, or maybe doing it too much, than it can't help and thats when intoxication sets in. The body does not need it, it *wants* it.

 

Hmmmm Makes me realize, however, this could also apply to maintaining a desire for sex, that too could make one hyper.

 

ME:" (if they walk while chanting)"

 

YOU: - nahh.. walk while chant to be tired and forget the sex?..... sure? (maybe i do not understand the language)"

 

Devotees always walk while chanting. Its not some unusual suggestion. ha And tired is not hyper. To forget about sex is good. To forget is not repression either. Better to tire oneself out than to fall into maya. I remember in the ashrama it was said we should be so tired by the end of the day (from doing so much devotional service) that we will fall asleep the minute our head hits the pillow.

 

YOU: so... basically i agree with you.. only the "guru" subject remains

 

Well, now you may also disagree with me on tiring one self out or trying to forget sex desire, in order to 'help' gain sense control. ha And its not that I mean this is the only method to employ, just not to throw a workable mehtod out the window. Its a fact that it works. Matter of fact, often getting active also works for controlling anger. What is anger? Its a lot of energy pent up in the mind and body. When we can find a peaceful way to release it, very often the anger is let go in a postive way and we no longer have it. So we chop wood, carry water. (Go on book distribution, etc.) The same for sex desire; this is not about artifical renunciaiton, repressoin, hyperactivity, etc. Just a method that has been known amongst devotees to work when coupled with something spiritual.

 

YOU: sorry for my basic english.. believe me if i say that i appear to be "arsh" and not kind because i do not know so many ways to say the same thing"

 

Actually, I find it rather refreshing.

[yasodanandana]

"Though godbrothers or godsisters can give the type of advice you are suggesting above. "

-also guru can.. why not? guru is for learning and to have advices

 

"There was something sweet to the concept of saving all souls and anyone could move in."

-yes.. but like we learn in bhagavad gita, one has to be saved accepting him as a brahmachary, one as a grihasta, one as vanaprasta, one as sannyasi..... basically arjuna was believing that if he would go to the temple or the hermitage, he became a better devotee,,, krishna said nooo!!

 

 

" People were nearly breaking down our doors to join in the 70s"

-sure.. but people thanks to the policy "join=temple". were blooping out also at these times.... tapasya has also the meaning of coherence in the time... one who is renunciated only for some years is more a disturb than a advantage

 

"To forget about sex is good. To forget is not repression either"

- to forget is not good... good is to find a better taste (krishna) and to prefere it with consciousness

 

"Better to tire oneself out than to fall into maya."

-yes.. but the problem is that when energy returns.. also maya returns

 

"What is anger?"

-anger is that i am angry because i am not krsna conscious and i believe that i am god and all the sense's objects are mine, it is obviously not possible, i am frustrated and i get angry

 

"Just a method that has been known amongst devotees to work when coupled with something spiritual. "

-i like it more if you say: spirit is the main thing, to be chaste is essential to live a spiritual life, if one is sufficiently "spiritual" and avoids gross and subtle "temptations"... everything works well

 

tapasya, is not to be coupled with love for krsna, tapasya is basically a result of how much we practice hare krsna and how much we have developed the taste for his love

 

"Actually, I find it rather refreshing. "

-you are very kind and devotee... homages also from Purnima D.Dasi.. my wife!!

[Priitaa]

"Though godbrothers or godsisters can give the type of advice you are suggesting above. "

 

-also guru can.. why not? guru is for learning and to have advices

--

Guru may admit you are having trouble, but he can not give that advice. That is the quality of guru, he must always give first class instruction. Actually, I have never once seen Prabhupada give that type of advice or instruction, so I am basing my belief and understanding on his actions toward his disciples. However, we can learn from siksa guru aslo, which is sometimes each other. :-)

 

-------

"There was something sweet to the concept of saving all souls and anyone could move in."

 

-yes.. but like we learn in bhagavad gita, one has to be saved accepting him as a brahmachary, one as a grihasta, one as vanaprasta, one as sannyasi..... basically arjuna was believing that if he would go to the temple or the hermitage, he became a better devotee,,, krishna said nooo!!

 

--

I wasn't saying that because we let so many move in, that we did it the right way. No. One had to be trained up, and even then we spoke like that. But I dont believe temple devotees are better devotee ha, not me! It is an excellent place to start tho, to get trained up, to gain in strength so we can take it with us into our grhasta homes.

 

Back to investigating those who move in: To check them out further, and in some cases, or in cases where men worked with children or women, or were to be given an authorativie position in the temple, a background check should have been done. Also in some cases, tho not sure how to do it, to check out their minds, deisres (pedophiles tend to wiggle themselves into positions over children for example), and so on. Not that people shouldn't move in by the hundreds, but that we should stop doing it wrong and develop a system to do it in a workable manner.

 

--------

 

" People were nearly breaking down our doors to join in the 70s"

 

-sure.. but people thanks to the policy "join=temple". were blooping out also at these times....

 

--

 

Well, I just explained above how its not the policy of people moving in that was wrong, but us, or the way we handled it. Anyhow here's some other points.

 

You see, it was Prabhupada who wanted so many people to join the temple. That was our mood because it was his. Now, he didn't want dangerous or crazy people to join, no. (Although they could live at home and attend the temple.) But pious people so they could be trained and advance to the level of a good devotee. Prabhupada was always happy when someone joined.

 

As far as blooping is concerned, most of them didn't really bloop. That would mean giivng up Krishna, and most I spoke with at that time who so-call blooped, just couldn't handle temple life. They were still devoees. Sure, some broke the principles at first, but eventually most calmed down and got married, lived a sane life. Matter of fact, some of them are now doing better than some who were not considered to have blooped. The reason is that at least they were, and are, honest, so they are able to maintain. And I wish to add that not all who left broke principles. So that we open our doors to so many who may later *bloop* is fine with me, because it just means they are practicing at home in most cases, and would not have been able to do that had they not joined (for most anyway).

 

And what about those who did not continue to practice Krishna consciousness? At least they started on their spiritual journey, they have made some advancement and will pick up in their next life where they left off in this one.

 

--------

 

tapasya has also the meaning of coherence in the time... one who is renunciated only for some years is more a disturb than a advantage

 

hahaha So true! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

----------

 

"To forget about sex is good. To forget is not repression either"

 

- to forget is not good... good is to find a better taste (krishna) and to prefere it with consciousness

 

--

There are different types of forgetting. I am not speaking about denial or repression (which is what I suspect you keep thinking I am speaking of), no, but to get it out of the mind, to think of something else, to take energy away from it by engaging the mind, and body, in some other activity.

 

Sure, its more first class to get a taste for Krishna & prefer meditating on Him, but tell that to someone in the middle of sexual desires! ha Realistically, they can't stop or alter their consciousness at that moment with higher thoughts. So what I'm suggesting here are steps, thats all. To take the needed steps to get the mind/body under control. Otherwise it reminds me of the times when I was sick in the temple ashrama with the flu and was told "We don't go to doctors. We just depend on Krishna." Of course you know we do go to doctors, but back then that was the misunderstanding. Therefore I am speaking here of taking steps to help get a handle over sex desire, steps specific addressing the need of the physical and mental malady, when I speak of getting active or forgetting (not denial, etc). Then add Krishna.

 

------------

 

"Better to tire oneself out than to fall into maya."

-yes.. but the problem is that when energy returns.. also maya returns

 

--

Who said it wont return? hehe Until we become pure devotees, it will return repeatedly. This is why it is nice to have a combination of methods to help us stay on top of it. The most efficient method is to live in an ashrama! Now I am not saying it is necessary benefic in other areas, but when it comes to celibacy, when living with other celibate persons, that makes it 100 times easier!

 

---------------

"What is anger?"

 

-anger is that i am angry because i am not krsna conscious and i believe that i am god and all the sense's objects are mine, it is obviously not possible, i am frustrated and i get angry

 

--

I wasn't asking this as a question to be answered. But OK, while it is those things you mentioned, it is still made up of physical and mental energy that needs a source of release.

 

----------

 

"Just a method that has been known amongst devotees to work when coupled with something spiritual. "

 

-i like it more if you say: spirit is the main thing, to be chaste is essential to live a spiritual life, if one is sufficiently "spiritual" and avoids gross and subtle "temptations"... everything works well

 

--

Thanks. And yes, that would be a solution, to avoid tempations. They come at all angles tho, and sneak in.

 

-------------

 

tapasya, is not to be coupled with love for krsna,

 

--

 

I have never read that in shastra. Following the 4 regs IS tapasya, getting up at 4 a.m. for Mongala IS tapasya, and lets face it, even chanting 16 rounds daily is tapasya since most of us don't have a full taste for chanting. ("How many rounds you have left prabhu?" we would ask. ha) Going on on Sankirtana is tapasya, and so many other things. But it is the type of tapasya --- Oh, Maybe thats what you mean, as these types of tapasay increase love of Krishna.

 

---------

"Actually, I find it rather refreshing. "

 

-you are very kind and devotee... homages also from Purnima D.Dasi.. my wife!!

 

--

Purnima, what a lovely name! /images/graemlins/smile.gif Thank you.

 

(P.S., I am a grandma. Two years now. Its still new and exciting to me. Another generation of devotees! Hurray!)

[yasodanandana]

"Guru may admit you are having trouble, but he can not give that advice"

-i do not think so, if guru sees difficulties he can pretend a little less.. interaction, this is in the guru's principle. Otherwise what is the meaning of a personal, living guru? If there's no judgement on personal basis what is the need of guru? in many occasions srila prabhupada was changing his instructions to not make devotees disobey to him and make aparadha: "ok.. if you really cannot do this... do that, but do something for krsna!"

 

"However, we can learn from siksa guru"

-siksa in our philosophy is like diksa.. janme janme prabhu sei. If we speak of advices given by friends, this is not siksa guru, it is very nice and useful but it is (technically speaking) friendship.. and guru is also my best friend, i can tell my difficulties to him. However i know for sure that in IskCon there's some nice gurus who are asking a little less about the 3rd principle, on personal basis... and for me it is not a bad thing

 

"background check should have been done."

-of course.. but in our philosophy there's no need to go to the temple to be devotees, if we (i was also living in the temple) had said it clearly, there was no need to fill the temple with unfit people

 

" it was Prabhupada who wanted so many people to join the temple"

-reading many biographies, and also considering the example of srila prabhupada, grihasta and worker until 55 years(?), i think that this is overestimated, prabhupada was very happy of "external" devotees and he was promoting varnashrama from the beginning (many times prabhupada was speaking of the outside job of grihastas as "devotional service")

 

"As far as blooping is concerned, most of them didn't really bloop"

-of course i was speaking of leaving the temple... for many devotees it is and it was a real advancements even if they broke some regulation

 

"So that we open our doors to so many who may later *bloop* is fine with me"

- no , it is not so good, devotees and masters have to give the advice on what is the safest social position to chant hare krishna and practice for all life.... to be out of the temple, frustrated, with many jouvenile desires unfulfilled, with no more faith in chastity and renunciation, with the need to find a job at 35, 40, 45, coming back to friends and relatives who will think that hare krishna is a delusion, a fashion limited in time, a thing impossible to practice for all the life .. it is not so fine.......... or what is the use of guru and devotee's association if we cannot give these advices? i repeat it, the bagavad gita is about a guru (krsna) who is preaching to a disciple (arjuna) telling him that there's no need to be a monk to surrender.. it is enough continue our life and job and to change the idea of who is the real and proper enjoyer (not us.. but krsna)

 

some one very special and real renunciated will choose to live in the temple.. and we outsiders will respect them as masters and saints

 

"And what about those who did not continue to practice Krishna consciousness?"

-it is a big disgrace... maybe they are no more practicing because they believe that it is not possible to chant hare krishna without living in the temple or following regulations

 

"There are different types of forgetting"

-maybe now we agree.. the key word is "natural", of course even a saint has not to go in a pornography shop.. so harekrishna chanting, prasadam, devotee association, and to avoid at least gross temptations

 

"The most efficient method is to live in an ashrama!"

-if one is fit... if one is not fit (and 3 classes of humans are not fit, and the majority of the religious practitioneers are not fit) it is worst than hell, for them and people in general... bhagavad gita says that the most dangerous thing in this world is not aids, leper, sars, ebola, terrorism.. but "mitya acharya", false renunciates... because they destroy in the people any faith in chastity and religion

 

"Oh, Maybe thats what you mean, as these types of tapasay increase love of Krishna. "

-oh yes.. i was saying that tapsya is not the goal, or that tapasya is good if it increases love and attachment to the holy name

 

"Purnima, what a lovely name! Thank you. "

- it is a joking nickname given by krsna to radharani.... "radha.. you are so fat that your face seems like a full moon!!!"

 

"(P.S., I am a grandma. Two years now. Its still new and exciting to me. Another generation of devotees! Hurray!)"

-please offer to these nice devotees my most humble obeisances!!!!!

/images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/wink.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

CIAO .. hare krishna!!!

 

(in ancient venetian= SC(h)IAVO(=slave) TUO(your).. or "I am your servant"

 

[Guest guest]

Haribol, I'm not signed in again so just know this is Prtha, the stubborn one ha who just wants to make various points, which you can next make yours of course. lol

 

"Guru may admit you are having trouble, but he can not give that advice"

 

-i do not think so, if guru sees difficulties he can pretend a little less.. interaction, this is in the guru's principle. Otherwise what is the meaning of a personal, living guru? If there's no judgement on personal basis what is the need of guru? in many occasions srila prabhupada was changing his instructions to not make devotees disobey to him and make aparadha: "ok.. if you really cannot do this... do that, but do something for krsna!"

 

ME: The point is, we can look to a various angles of it and present them as good arguments, but I have never seen Prabhuapda lower the standards with the 4 regulative principles. Never. So we can debate until the cows come home, but its not about my opinion, or yours, or the guy next door, :-)but Prabhuapda's instructions compounded with his example of what he did with his disciples.

 

--

 

"However, we can learn from siksa guru"

 

-siksa in our philosophy is like diksa.. janme janme prabhu sei. If we speak of advices given by friends, this is not siksa guru, it is very nice and useful but it is (technically speaking) friendship.. and guru is also my best friend, i can tell my difficulties to him. However i know for sure that in IskCon there's some nice gurus who are asking a little less about the 3rd principle, on personal basis... and for me it is not a bad thing"

 

ME: First, you dont want to get into the ISKCON topic with me. ha So lets leave that out. Now, of course all devotees are receiving their knowledge from Diksa, but they all have their own perspective, own realizations, own way of putting things. This is why Prabhupada had us preach to the public, or give class on his purports. We could present perspectives to the people on our level or similar. (Not that he couldn't, just that this seems to be a more specific service for us.)

 

---

 

"background check should have been done."

 

-of course.. but in our philosophy there's no need to go to the temple to be devotees, if we (i was also living in the temple) had said it clearly, there was no need to fill the temple with unfit people

 

ME: True. He also wanted us to make them fit. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

----

 

" it was Prabhupada who wanted so many people to join the temple"

 

-reading many biographies, and also considering the example of srila prabhupada, grihasta and worker until 55 years(?), i think that this is overestimated, prabhupada was very happy of "external" devotees and he was promoting varnashrama from the beginning (many times prabhupada was speaking of the outside job of grihastas as "devotional service")

 

ME: Ummm read all you want, I was there. And it's not overestmimated, tho maybe misunderstood. Prabhupada had no interest in external deovtees nor the job market. Just cuz he spoke on VAD (Varnashrama dharma) doesn't mean it was his mission, but more to try to save those who didn't want to follow properly. Matter of fact, he specifically said it would be impossible for us to do in this age.

 

But why you put quotes around Prabhupada speaking of job as devotinal service? It appears you disagree? If the pure devotee says its devotional service, then its devotinal service. Who are we to question a ray of Vishnu. If nothing else, than it is devotional service due to his mercy.

 

And I myself am not speaking of external deovtees. Factually speaking, at that time no one could get away with very much externalism. That came later, or maybe over time our nonsense manifested and we did not use the opportunity to purifiy ourselves. But thats a different topic. Prabhupada wanted many to join, but not to do so externally or put on a show. If anything, there is more externalism now.

 

Prabhupada's promotion of Varnashrama (VAD) was secondary to his promotion of transcendental Krishna consciousness. I mention this because, while some are interested in VAD sanely, I have run into too many who want to, for exapmle, smoke weed cuz its ok in VAD, or practice polygamy cuz thats even good in VAD, have sex with wife or break 4 regs cuz its ok if your in VAD, or there are so many other things, some even criminal (not all, but I can give long list if needed ha, but rather not). My personal focus has alwyas been Krishna on the highest level. I did not even join this movement out of an interest in VAD, and am thankful I had never heard of it, and that the movement was not based on it, cuz I would have never joined. I didn't need to learn how to be a garbage man for example (sudra) or how that functions, or how to be a school teacher, and so on. I all ready got that in childhood. I came to the movement for something higher, which is transcendental Krishna consciousness. (Am awaiting your rebuttle. ha)

 

---

 

"As far as blooping is concerned, most of them didn't really bloop"

 

-of course i was speaking of leaving the temple... for many devotees it is and it was a real advancements even if they broke some regulation

 

ME: Yes.

 

---

 

"So that we open our doors to so many who may later *bloop* is fine with me"

 

- no , it is not so good, devotees and masters have to give the advice on what is the safest social position to chant hare krishna and practice for all life.... to be out of the temple, frustrated, with many jouvenile desires unfulfilled, with no more faith in chastity and renunciation, with the need to find a job at 35, 40, 45, coming back to friends and relatives who will think that hare krishna is a delusion, a fashion limited in time, a thing impossible to practice for all the life .. it is not so fine.......... or what is the use of guru and devotee's association if we cannot give these advices? i repeat it, the bagavad gita is about a guru (krsna) who is preaching to a disciple (arjuna) telling him that there's no need to be a monk to surrender.. it is enough continue our life and job and to change the idea of who is the real and proper enjoyer (not us.. but krsna)

 

ME: I dont think you are understanding what I mean when I saw it is good. No one wants them to do like that. We can preach to them or give advice, as you say above, & of course we did. Please dont think we didnt. But we can not force them to listen. Once they have come to this point, there is nothing we can do but feel happy they made advancement in this life.

 

---

 

"some one very special and real renunciated will choose to live in the temple.. and we outsiders will respect them as masters and saints"

 

ME: No problem there.

 

---

 

"And what about those who did not continue to practice Krishna consciousness?"

 

-it is a big disgrace... maybe they are no more practicing because they believe that it is not possible to chant hare krishna without living in the temple or following regulations

 

ME: WOW Disgrace, you call it. Well, its nice you have so much energy to put into each and every person who moves into a temple. Its not my job to judge them. I have to feel happy for those who tried, even if they can't make it. For them its advancement. Its always advancement, not disgrace. We pick up where we left off, so in their next life as Bhagavad-gita exmplains, they will take birth in situations that foster a continuance of their Krishna consciousness.

 

I don't think they find it impossible to chant Hare Krishna wihtout living in the temple. I've seen and/or heard about many who chant at home. Tho may find it difficult to follow the 4 regs. In time, however, the regs become easier as everyone gets life consequences when they dont follow them. Four kids later and repeated loss of jobs due to smoking weed, a divorce, child support payments of end up in legal trouble, etc., will get a person back on the track to the 4 regs real quick! :-)

---

 

"There are different types of forgetting"

 

-maybe now we agree.. the key word is "natural", of course even a saint has not to go in a pornography shop.. so harekrishna chanting, prasadam, devotee association, and to avoid at least gross temptations

 

ME: WOW We agree! Thats great. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Lets leave it at that. ha

 

----

 

"The most efficient method is to live in an ashrama!"

 

-if one is fit... if one is not fit (and 3 classes of humans are not fit, and the majority of the religious practitioneers are not fit) it is worst than hell, for them and people in general... bhagavad gita says that the most dangerous thing in this world is not aids, leper, sars, ebola, terrorism.. but "mitya acharya", false renunciates... because they destroy in the people any faith in chastity and religion

 

ME: Seems you have changed the topic a little and are back to how many, or who, should moved into the temple in the old days, and you appear to believe only certain folks should be alowed to like this? Prabhuapda wanted everyone to move in who had the slightest desire to move in. Then they were suppose to get trained up and come up to first class level. I think this is the point that keeps getting missed. They are suppose to be trained up, and trained up to a first class level. Always. (By the way, I agree false renunciants are a royal pain, but that too, is lack of, or incorrect training.)

 

---

 

"Oh, Maybe thats what you mean, as these types of tapasay increase love of Krishna. "

 

-oh yes.. i was saying that tapsya is not the goal, or that tapasya is good if it increases love and attachment to the holy name

 

ME: Then here, we agree.

 

----

 

"Purnima, what a lovely name! Thank you. "

 

- it is a joking nickname given by krsna to radharani.... "radha.. you are so fat that your face seems like a full moon!!!"

 

ME: Oh my goodness! Fat? :-) I thought it had something to do with Lord Caitanya.

 

"(P.S., I am a grandma. Two years now. Its still new and exciting to me. Another generation of devotees! Hurray!)"

 

-please offer to these nice devotees my most humble obeisances!!!!!

 

ME: Thank you. :-)

 

------

 

ME: Am awaiting general, over all rebuttle. ha

 

YS,

Prtha dd

[yasodanandana]

"I have never seen Prabhuapda lower the standards with the 4 regulative principles. "

-of course prabhupada has preached in a coherent way in all his mission, but for example, he has not rejected fallen (for sex) disciples and sannyasis,i think that it is lowering the standard for mercy (on personal basis)

 

"We could present perspectives to the people on our level or similar."

-yes it is nice and obvious.. i was saying that it is more "disclose the heart with friends" than "learn from a guru" siksa or diksa

 

"read all you want, I was there"

-if you was there my perception of the subject it is obviously changing .....

 

"Prabhupada had no interest in external deovtees..... but more to try to save those who didn't want to follow properly"

- i respect you, but bhagavad gita goes in another direction.. and also the prabhupada's siddhanta as we can read in the books.. of course in my opinion

 

"But why you put quotes around Prabhupada speaking of job as devotinal service? It appears you disagree? "

- no no.. sorry for my language but i am agree for logic and doctrinal reasons and, of course, because the jagat guru says it

 

"Prabhupada's promotion of Varnashrama (VAD) was secondary to his promotion of transcendental Krishna consciousness. "

- i do not see how can we promote transcendental krnsa consciousness without promoting varnashrama..... krsna did it for arjuna .. "go on with your job and do it for me"

 

" Please dont think we didnt. But we can not force them to listen"

-yes.. i was also in the temple in the 80'..... i was not brought in the temple in chains , and if it was at least a partial error, it was not all authorities fault... it was mainly on my resposability

 

"WOW Disgrace, you call it. Well, its nice you have so much energy to put into each and every person who moves into a temple. Its not my job to judge them. I have to feel happy for those who tried, even if they can't make it."

-of course ultimately.. if one chants harekrsna even one time.. he's saved, i feel only sorry for a lot of people who, better advised, could have remained "in contact " lifelong, maybe at a slower pace, but not completely disappeared

 

"you appear to believe only certain folks should be alowed to like this"

- no, i do not think that only mad people was allowed... but i do think that many were not fit.. otherwise why we have empty temples now?

 

"I agree false renunciants are a royal pain, but that too, is lack of, or incorrect training."

-yes... but also that the majority simply is not fit for the temple..

 

ok.... i hope to have been more understandable now!!! HAREKRSNA mataji prabhu..

 

and.....

 

please give me your blessings to forever chant harekrishna and associate with the devotees.. and excuse me if i was offensive