Shiva and Krsna

[Guest guest]

Hi please forgive if i am worng,

 

i want to put some words of my own, regarding gods

usually people miss judge this topic as god and ranking their power (it shows their materialistic understanding)

 

Actually great people in the past have sub divided the one and only lord (shapeless super form) to concentrate based on each phase of life

 

Bramha (creator :shrushtikaraka)

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Its the starting point of life, creating anything needs intelligence or knowledge so bramhas knowledge (godess Sarwathi) as wife. he is suprme in this state

 

Vishnu (preserver: Sthithikaraka)

 

The supreme in preserving and controller of existence (the main means of birth and death), one will not consider much bout starting ending ,we all care and strive for living, so he is the one jaganataka suthradhari (director of life play)

so to lead all kinds pleasures one in life need "SRI" Money ,beauty, food...which is nothing form of lashmi, so Narayana lord vishnu has his power as his concert (he is supreme in this state.

 

Maheswara Lord Siva (Distuctor :layakaraka)

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He is the one for distruction and ultimate truth that ones existance must come to an end, for distruction one needs power, he has mother shakthi as his wife and his better half

he is the supreme in this state

 

But one should know that all these three forms are means of life they all are one, we need to know that we are in the state of sthithi our supreme lord is Narayana, vasudeva Srinvasa, because he is sarvantharyami means the one who is spread everywhere ,i will tell how,

 

Bramha is vishnu himself, he was born from his nabi (naval)

Matha shakthi is his sister (he has no father mother so who how can he have sister) because she herself is his female form, Ganesh "Suklam bharadaram vishnum", Ganesh is reincarnation of lord vishnu when the great mother skathi wanted a son she asked her brother to be her son, Lord accepted and born as Ganesh, Hari-Hara both are one where they medidate on each other

 

SO AS OUR KARMA ONE SHOULD THINK ABOUT IMPORTANCE OF LIFE ,WE ARE IN THE STATE OF STHITHI SO "SAY HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE" to lead us towards ultimate truth of life and may the LORD take us in the right direct (into him)

 

Thanks

[Yogkriya]

Om Namah Bhagawate Vasudevaya!

 

Infact, this satvic and tamasic purana categories have been heard in gaudiya sampradaya only. I never heard of this anywhere else. For example, what exactly makes the Shiva Mahapurana a tamasic purana?? Because Shiva is considered as tamasic by some ill-informed people? Because he is the destroyer of the Universe? But then he is the sustainer and creator too. He himself says this to Rama and Rama confirms it. And Krishna and Rama are both Vishnu avatars. Yes Vishnu had ten avataras and Krishna was the one in Dwapar Yuga. Of course he is the Bhagwan period. Wouldn't want to argue on that.

So, If the aim of human life is to attain only the satvic guna, then why did Ved Vyas waste his time writing the tamasic puranas? Of course one can argue that no this was for people of lower understanding. But that is not so. These puranas and Upanishads contain the knowledge of the highest order and are the Vedas and by no means a chandal or lower tamasic person can understand it. So this categorization is mostly biased and frequently used as a lame excuse for a particular sampradaya to boost the scriptures in line with their own pholosophy. In fact the worship of Lord Shiva has been considered the vedic norm. And Lord Krishna and Rama have fulfiled that norm too. Whether it is Rama or Ravana, Krishna or Arjuna, Janak or Dasharatha, Vashishtha or Vishwamitra, Kunti or gandhari, all worshiped Lord Sadashiva. The references and quotations can be thousands. But where is the realization is the question. A guru may quote any number of books, but if he has no realization, then he is not a guru but just a 'panda', pathi / kathakar or an academician. Today thousands of these pandas in Mathura and Kashi can speak elaborately quoting sanskrit verses from books. But have they attained the Lord's darshan or have a siddhi is another issue. It is all theory. This is not the vedic mantra or yog practice. This practice is the result of bhakti kaal of last 700 or so years.

 

As to who should be worshiped, I would say worshipping Shiva or Krishna can never be wrong. It is a matter of individual intimacy and attachment that also happens due to past birth attachment to a particular form of the divine. Not all people have equal level. Some devotees may find it hard to practice pranayama and yogic and mantra sadhna as was done in the Vedic times. Other may find just beating symbols as a waste of time. It depends. But both Lord Shiva and Krishna can liberate a sadhaka from the cycle of rebirth and death. It all depends what is one's level. And finally though it may depend on the mercy of the Lord, a sadhaka / devotee still has to earn that mercy. No Guru would come and chant your rounds for you. You will have to do it. No matter how many books one reads. And just having emotions alone is not enough either.

 

Om Namah Shivaya.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

SHiva Purana can be easliy understood and taken to by people in Tamasic modes.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Well so can Bhagwat purana! And Shiv Purana is satvic too. So is Shiv Samhita. And no Shiva Samhita and Shiva Geeta are not to be easily understood by people in tamasic mode at all.

[Guest guest]

SB 5.17.16: In Ilāvṛta-varṣa, Lord Śiva is always encircled by ten billion maidservants of goddess Durgā, who minister to him. The quadruple expansion of the Supreme Lord is composed of Vāsudeva, Pradyumna, Aniruddha and Sańkarṣaṇa. Sańkarṣaṇa, the fourth expansion, is certainly transcendental, but because his activities of destruction in the material world are in the mode of ignorance, He is known as tāmasī, the Lord's form in the mode of ignorance. Lord Śiva knows that Sańkarṣaṇa is the original cause of his own existence, and thus he always meditates upon Him in trance by chanting the following mantra.

[Guest guest]

SB 5.17.17: The most powerful Lord Siva says: O Supreme Personality of Godhead, I offer my respectful obeisances unto You in Your expansion as Lord Sankarsana. You are the reservoir of all transcendental qualities. Although You are unlimited, You remain unmanifest to the nondevotees.

[Guest guest]

SB 5.17.22-23: From that Supreme Personality of Godhead appears Lord Brahmā, whose body is made from the total material energy, the reservoir of intelligence predominated by the passionate mode of material nature. From Lord Brahma, I myself am born as a representation of false ego known as Rudra. By my own power I create all the other demigods, the five elements and the senses. Therefore, I worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is greater than any of us and under whose control are situated all the demigods, material elements and senses, and even Lord Brahma and I myself, like birds bound by a rope. Only by the Lord's grace can we create, maintain and annihilate the material world. Therefore I offer my respectful obeisances unto the Supreme Being

[Guest guest]

SB 5.17.16: In Ilavrta-varsa, Lord Siva is always encircled by ten billion maidservants of goddess Durga who minister to him. The quadruple expansion of the Supreme Lord is composed of Vasudeva, Pradumya, Annirudha and Sankarsana . Sankarsana, the fourth expansion, is certainly transcendental, but because his activities of destruction in the material world are in the mode of ignorance, He is known as tamasi, the Lord's form in the mode of ignorance. Lord Siva knows that Sankarsana is the original cause of his own existence, and thus he always meditates upon Him in trance by chanting the following mantra.

[Guest guest]

So says Krishna to Lord Shiva after Shiva is pleased with his devotion to him!

So also says Ramachandra to Lord Shiva after seeing his universal form - the Virrat Roop. Rama accepts the supreme personality of Godhead as lord SadaShiva. So whom shall I believe more? Rama or Prabhupada. I made my choice to to follow Rama! You have made yours!

[Guest guest]

So Shiva is in teh mode of ignorance? So who is enlightened then?? lol

So Shiva has to chant a mantra? What mantra?? This is really interesting!!

And I suppose it has to be the Hare Krishna mantra!! Was it given by Shri Chaitanya to Lord Shiva? Can you show where it is written that Shiva chants Hare Krishna mantra? lol! Maybe now BBT can add up that line in the next revised edition of SB !

All these explanations are just one sided and in line with gaudiya vaishnavism. They are not the ultimate truth!! Two importantant points are to be noted:

1. Shiva is in the mode of ignorance and is tamasic - this is completely untrue abnd false propaganda aggreessively propagated by ISKCON and other sects of 500 years old Gaudiya Vaishnavism. This is not a complete Vedic truth.

The gaudiya vaishnavs are ok as long as they are propagating their theories on Krishna of sakhya and manjari bhaav or bheda-bhed dvaita, but when it comes to Shiva they are no authority so why talk? This is not acceptable!

 

2. In every avatara that MahaVishnu took to protect and save, he worshiped Lord Shiva and that includes Ram and Krishna avatara. This is well documented and very elaborate. If you have to know the real nature of Lord Shiva then you will have to take shelter under a guru from a bonafide Shaiv sampradaya and not a gaudiya Guru. Just like to understand KC you have to get the preaching from a bonafide Vaishnava, you go to a bonafide Shaiva. And who can be the greatest Shaiv than Krishna himself. To practice the difficult Pashupata Yoga and austerities to please Lord Shiva, one has to become completely devoted to Lord Sadashiva and Krishna did that!! I am not talking about any Sampradayik politics, but I am talking about Krishna himself. This is what Krishna tells to Yudhisthira and Pitamah Bhishma!!! How can you just not accept Krishna's own words because it is not inline with your liking?

After giving the BG to the world and after going through all the battle of mahabharata, Krishna tells yudhishthira of the glory of Lord Shiva and his brilliance. He does not say "he is in the mode of ignorance"!! That is vaishnava aparadha!! Krishna elaborately recites the Shiva Sehestranama and tells how he did pashupata yoga to wirship Lord Sadashiva for six months living on nothing but pure air, standing on one leg!!

Later on in teh Mahabharata, Shiva and Parvati appear before him and grant him several boons, one that of never ending fame and beauty and others. You can be happy believeing that Shiva chants your hare krishna mantra!! What mantra He chants, the one who is the creator of all mantras!! He doesnt need to chant any mantras. He just thinks and the universes submerge into him and emerge from him. He just blinks an eyelid and several thousands of years of Brahma pass. Again all this glory is confirmed by Lord Ramachandra and Krishna himself. The "cause of all causes" the base of the universe, the Adi Dev, MahaDev - Lor of all Lords! One without a birth or death! Read the Shiv maha purana, Shiva Gita and Shiva samhita and the Mahabharata Anushasana Parva to know little more on Lord Shiva and his glory!! And not just the theories of Sankarshana! and that he took birth from Brahma. Brahma himself prays to Shiva saying that "you are lord of the Universe". The thing is that your devotion to Krishna's form bounds you to him. This is very good. So why don't you keep praying to Krishna? Why come to Shiva gathering useless purports to show that he is under or over?? I understand that God positioning and politics is an important part of your spiritual policy. But can't you downplay it more? Because this invokes a similar reaction from other sampradayas and as a result it deepens the rift between the common spiritual brotherhood between people!

[Guest guest]

Lord Ramachandra says to Shiva that "you are the controller of all the three gunas of material and spiritual nature. The trident (trishul) carried by Lord Shiva symbolises his total control over all the three gunas satva, Rajas and tamasa. Yet he is above all these gunas! His transcedental nature is above all these gunas and is not affected by them. Though he annihilates the world to later creat it again, he does it using the tamasic energy, but then he again creates it with the satvic energy!! He is not affected by them. He controls them. This is an important point that is twisted to - "He is in the mode of ignorance, since he destroys the world." This is not true. And is again and again confirmed in the words of Lord Rama and Lord Shiva himself!! This also gets confirmed by Krishna himself again in the Dvapar Yuga!! Shiva is easily pleased by his devotees and protects them always. That is pure satvik guna!

[Guest guest]

Pankaj wrote:

"Shiva and Krsna are same in the sense they always think of one another, but this is reffering to Sada-siva"

 

Agreed! Good!!

Krishna and Shiva or Rama and Shiva or Vishnu and Shiva always think about each other. That is why the Hare Krishnas think that Shiva is devoted to Krishna and the Shaivs think that Krishna is devoted to Shiva! Both are true, but only half true on individual level as they want to stress only their side of the story and reject the other side! Where as both Hari and Shiva love each other so dearly. We have to accept this fact as this love has been revealed to the world through many yugas where Hari has worshiped Shiva as Rama as Krishna. This is true. So HInduism or as it was earlier called Sanatana Dharma, is very large hearted and liberal and not closed one line philosophy. It takes both Shiva and Krishna together, never belitteling the other. It is a liberal system that accomodates a wide variety of beliefs, and the beliefs are based on the vedic culture. HIndus are full of love for Krishna and for Shiva. That's why the same Hindu would go and worship in a Shiva temple and in a Krishna temple.

 

[haridas]

See, this is what happens when there is no direction from Guru, Sadhu and sastra. People tend to make things as they go along which is quite common but sad.

 

If you read the sastra carefully and with a Bonofide guru then you will know that the same person who wrote the shiva purana is that same person who wrote the Amala Purana aka the Srimad Bhagavatam. The Srimad Bhagavatam is the essence of all the Puranas. Now that person ofcourse is Vyasadev who is none other then krsna. Now are you saying that Vyasadevs philosophy is messed up? That just means that you are biased and have no knowledge of sastra.

Vyasa dev wrote all the sastras but was still unsatisfied(this is to show that without krsna you have nothing) and then his guru Narada Muni instructed him to write the spotless purana which is the ripened fruit of vedic knowledege.

Now this is Vyasadev(krsna) who is presenting you with this "messed up philosophy" so why not ask Vyasadev why he is confusing us. Surely to Vaisnavas he is saying something else and to Shaivaites he is saying something else. I guess he is along with you while you are typing and telling you that what these "iskconites" are saying is bogus right?

So please reply, I want to know what else Vyasadev is telling you that he isnt telling the rest of us

[swapcute_in]

what is in the name?why differentiating things?

pray and chant that gives u peace n happiness........

[Guest guest]

Hari das,

 

First of all, I do have a Guru who is very much bonafide. Knows the four Vedas and 108 Upanishads by heart and is a complete Guru. It is a different thing that all gurus and scriptures outside of the Iskcon lable automatically become non-bonafide within the Iskcon mindset.

I do have a Guru who is very much bonafide. It is a different thing that all gurus and scriptures outside of the Iskcon lable automatically may become non-bonafide within the Iskcon mindset.

 

"Now that person of course is Vyasadev who is none other then krsna. Now are you saying that Vyasadevs philosophy is messed up? That just means that you are biased and have no knowledge of sastra."

 

- Okay. Why don't you recognize and accept what Vyasa Deva aka Krisna wrote?

I don't say his philosophy is messed up, but this is what you imply by not accepting his other works. Your explanation is simple - all other works are in the "mode of ignorance" but you failed to say why?

Do you consider Shiv Gita as a scripture which is in the mode of ignorance?

If yes why?

If your so called 'amala purana' addresses Lord Sadashiva as a mere DemiGod than I do not accept it. Or is it SPP's purports that make him one?

And yes, you can attain liberation or reach God without reading the Bhagwatam.

Also, why did SPP had to retranslate SB and BG again?

 

As far as your comment - "what these Iskconites are saying is bogus",

- I can clarify my position on this.

All the information propagated by you guys as far as Krisna is concerned is right, but what you say about Shiva is not. SPP says Shiva is 'demi-God'. This is not true. Rama accepts and Krsna accepts Shiva as the God, so I would put Krsna's and Rama's authority over SPP's. You can do otherwise.

 

 

 

See, this is what happens when there is no direction from Guru, Sadhu and sastra. People tend to make things as they go along which is quite common but sad.

 

If you read the sastra carefully and with a Bonofide guru then you will know that the same person who wrote the shiva purana is that same person who wrote the Amala Purana aka the Srimad Bhagavatam. The Srimad Bhagavatam is the essence of all the Puranas. Now that person ofcourse is Vyasadev who is none other then krsna. Now are you saying that Vyasadevs philosophy is messed up? That just means that you are biased and have no knowledge of sastra.

Vyasa dev wrote all the sastras but was still unsatisfied(this is to show that without krsna you have nothing) and then his guru Narada Muni instructed him to write the spotless purana which is the ripened fruit of vedic knowledege.

Now this is Vyasadev(krsna) who is presenting you with this "messed up philosophy" so why not ask Vyasadev why he is confusing us. Surely to Vaisnavas he is saying something else and to Shaivaites he is saying something else. I guess he is along with you while you are typing and telling you that what these "iskconites" are saying is bogus right?

So please reply, I want to know what else Vyasadev is telling you that he isnt telling the rest of us

[Guest guest]

 

Hare Krishna and dandavats

 

In addition to the categorization of puraanas as sattvic/rajasic/tamasic in Padma puraana and that the conclusions of sattvic puraanas should be considered correct, it also mentions four sampradayas as authentic all of which are vaishnava. There was a nice post sometime back, which showed the contradiction in the tamasic puraanas as to who killed Lord Nrsimha, which showed that their conclusions should not be accepted as authority (especially when sattvic puraanas state a contrary position) but are meant for persons with predominantly tamasic nature.

 

That is nonsense. Why were these rajasic and tamasic purans written by Vyaasdev if they hold no authority. Are you intentionally trying to offend people?

[Guest guest]

 

Hare Krishna and dandavats

 

"I was taught that the trinity (Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh) do have different roles but are equal. Please clarify especially as I do not understand why Lord Shiva is being stated as being a demigod!"

I agree. I regard them all as equal and this works fine within my belief.

 

 

Where did you get this teaching from -- partial truth is most dangerous. The trinity are similiar *only* when we consider them as guna-avataars (i.e. saatvic, rajasic and tamasic) of Krishna, but if you consider the svarup (or true nature) of them then Kshirodakshayi-Vishnu is an expansion of Krishna, Shiva is between jiva-tattva and vishnu-tattva and Brahma is mostly jiva. Regarding the nature of Lord Shiva the following is stated in Brahma-Samhita "I adore the Primaeval Lord Govinda, Who transforms Himself as Sambhu for performing the work of destruction, just as milk is transformed into curd which is neither the same as, nor different from, milk". Lord Shiva is compared to yogurt which is milk transformed, but yogurt cannot transform to milk. Lord Brahma and Lord Shiva are demi-gods meaning they are subserviant to the Supreme Lord but the concept of some that all dieties (e.g. Durga, Ganesh ...) are on the same level i.e. that of Supreme Lord, is only an imagination and finds no support in Vedic texts.

I thought Shiva and Bhrama's greatness is talked about in various Puranas? Why does it matter anyway that some regard Shiva as supreme? Why does it get your end up?

[Guest guest]

 

Well so can Bhagwat purana! And Shiv Purana is satvic too. So is Shiv Samhita. And no Shiva Samhita and Shiva Geeta are not to be easily understood by people in tamasic mode at all.

You biggotted idiot. You have no respect for devotees of Shiva.

[Guest guest]

That is nonsense. Why were these rajasic and tamasic purans written by Vyaasdev if they hold no authority. Are you intentionally trying to offend people?

 

 

See the above statement proves no vedic conclusion. It is mere biased opinion based on a desire to be correct. These were written by vyasadev as to show the different natures of people. Before he wrote the Srimad Bhagavatam he had written all the other vedas but he was still unsatisfied because this is to show that without krsna we can never be satisfied.

[Guest guest]

LOL !!

What do you mean by "no respect for Shiva devotees", you abusing fellow??

Of course Shiva Purana and Shiva Gita nad Shiva Samhita are satvik Purans!!

Where is the scope for no respect here??? Explain your abusive behavior!!

 

 

You biggotted idiot. You have no respect for devotees of Shiva.

[riih.qarojamahoamaan]

 

Hare Krishna,

I have the same problem - I feel torn between worshipping Lord Shiva and Lord Krishna. I am currently watching the Shiv puran and you are rite, it does lead one to believe that Shiva is supreme to whom even Lord Vishnu bows down to. I would like to have this clarified too as my heart is with Krsna but am confused over whether I should be worshipping Shiva if he is the supreme one.

I suggest you just experiment. Worship Ziwa, then Qr,sna, and see the results. I give you a Ziwa mantra to experiment: Ooom hriim padma nandiizwara hum. And Qr,sna's mantra: Ooom gowinda daamodara maadhawa. Bloody hell, why are people torn between deities? In the saawitrii mantra all deities are worshipped. Then why not worship only this:

OOOM VUR VY!WA: SYwA!: ) TA!T SAWITY!R WA!RE,NIjAM) <O:p</O:p

VA!RGO DEWA!SJA DhIIMAHI) DhI!JO JO! NA: PRAKODA!JAAT))

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

I am currently watching the Shiv puran and you are rite, it does lead one to believe that Shiva is supreme to whom even Lord Vishnu bows down to.

Base your bhakti on what the scriptures say, not on what the Shiva Purana T.V. serial tells you. There is nothing wrong with having devotion to Shiva, but base it on something solid.

[agraman]

It is really strange that there is unnecessary conflict who is superior whether Shiva or Krsna.In fact both are the same just like the both sides of the same coin.There is no difference between them.In Vishnu Sahasranamam in bhalasruthy one can see Shiva praising Rama as the omkara swaroopi.In Ramayana Rama worships Shiva after killing Ravana.So both of them are not against each other but compementing each other.It is only in our own ignorance and by hearing misleading lectures that we differenciate between the two.Whether one worships Shiva or Krsna it makes no difference but a steadfast devotee of either of them can see Shiva in Krsna and Krsna in Shiva

if he sticks to a particular God and never wavering whether this or that.The real impact is they are called Shankara-Narayana.One must strive to understand this thru experience and practice without having doubts in mind.One can worship Krsna as Shiva and vice versa.No harm.If the devotion is sincere he can get realisation of his ishta devata in that form.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

I think the greater danger isn't who you worship, but why you worship. If someone is worshipping Shiva for material gain, then he is a fool. But if someone is worshipping Shiva to be purified of kama (lust), krodha (anger), and lobha (greed), then Shiva will guide him in the right direction and give him all blessings.

[Guest guest]

 

If someone is worshipping Shiva for material gain, then he is a fool.

Do you mean that it is wrong to ask of material gain from any deity?