Shiva and Krsna

[Guest guest]

 

Prabhu don't know who you are but I could tell you I was in exact same situation. Its like my mind was going in all directions. After a long time I realized {bit hard to put into words for me without expressing myself} anyway..

 

When I thought Shiva was Supreme I had this kind of hatred for Krishna in my mind. I could feel it coming into my brain. Kind of not liking Vaishnava's. This was after a devotee came to my house from Rudra Sampradaya, he gave me some beads to chant {not diskya}. I realized that people are attracted to Shiva not because of His Supremacy but because of his kindness. So the devotee who came to my house killed this misconception which was going to come into my brain in the future I am sure. Plus I had benefit of eating his Maha-Maha-prasadam. This I do believe brought me to my Diksya Gurudeva. So you see I needed the blessings of a devotee of Lord Shiva. Lord Shiva is very kind.

 

Lord Shiva I now believe holds special position. Unfortunality people misunderstand His power for Supremacy. He is dear devotee of Krishna. Serve Lord Shiva to serve Krishna, thats best way.

 

I am a convert of Shavism. I believe Shiva to be the lord of all things.

 

I know there are many here who disagree and that is fine. The important thing is we are all trying to get to the divine by being spiritual. The divine is manifested in many ways and names. As long as we try to follow the way then names and trivialities cease to be important.

 

We should stop with the trivialities of who is wrong and who is right.

[Apep]

 

I am a convert of Shavism. I believe Shiva to be the lord of all things.

I know there are many here who disagree and that is fine. The important thing is we are all trying to get to the divine by being spiritual. The divine is manifested in many ways and names. As long as we try to follow the way then names and trivialities cease to be important.

We should stop with the trivialities of who is wrong and who is right.

That was me who said that. Why my computer kicks me out and makes me a guest is beyond me.

[Apep]

 

Everyone should understand the fact at there is only one God. He neither has a form nor has a name. It is because human's limited capacity, he gives names and forms and various other attributies to worships them. Our greatest foolishness is so many of us see God as a super-HUMAN because we don't know what real GOD is. We keep making our own images, giving them names, etc and amuse ourselves. The best thing that we can do it pray to whichever god we like and not make any judgements on who is greater than whom. There is no end to it. In doing so, we are trying to satisfy only or petty selves and not the real SELF.

Indeed that is the purest form of wisdom.

[Apep]

 

Om Namah Bhagawate Vasudevaya!

Infact, this satvic and tamasic purana categories have been heard in gaudiya sampradaya only. I never heard of this anywhere else. For example, what exactly makes the Shiva Mahapurana a tamasic purana?? Because Shiva is considered as tamasic by some ill-informed people? Because he is the destroyer of the Universe? But then he is the sustainer and creator too. He himself says this to Rama and Rama confirms it. And Krishna and Rama are both Vishnu avatars. Yes Vishnu had ten avataras and Krishna was the one in Dwapar Yuga. Of course he is the Bhagwan period. Wouldn't want to argue on that.

So, If the aim of human life is to attain only the satvic guna, then why did Ved Vyas waste his time writing the tamasic puranas? Of course one can argue that no this was for people of lower understanding. But that is not so. These puranas and Upanishads contain the knowledge of the highest order and are the Vedas and by no means a chandal or lower tamasic person can understand it. So this categorization is mostly biased and frequently used as a lame excuse for a particular sampradaya to boost the scriptures in line with their own pholosophy. In fact the worship of Lord Shiva has been considered the vedic norm. And Lord Krishna and Rama have fulfiled that norm too. Whether it is Rama or Ravana, Krishna or Arjuna, Janak or Dasharatha, Vashishtha or Vishwamitra, Kunti or gandhari, all worshiped Lord Sadashiva. The references and quotations can be thousands. But where is the realization is the question. A guru may quote any number of books, but if he has no realization, then he is not a guru but just a 'panda', pathi / kathakar or an academician. Today thousands of these pandas in Mathura and Kashi can speak elaborately quoting sanskrit verses from books. But have they attained the Lord's darshan or have a siddhi is another issue. It is all theory. This is not the vedic mantra or yog practice. This practice is the result of bhakti kaal of last 700 or so years.

As to who should be worshiped, I would say worshipping Shiva or Krishna can never be wrong. It is a matter of individual intimacy and attachment that also happens due to past birth attachment to a particular form of the divine. Not all people have equal level. Some devotees may find it hard to practice pranayama and yogic and mantra sadhna as was done in the Vedic times. Other may find just beating symbols as a waste of time. It depends. But both Lord Shiva and Krishna can liberate a sadhaka from the cycle of rebirth and death. It all depends what is one's level. And finally though it may depend on the mercy of the Lord, a sadhaka / devotee still has to earn that mercy. No Guru would come and chant your rounds for you. You will have to do it. No matter how many books one reads. And just having emotions alone is not enough either.

Om Namah Shivaya.

Am I right to say that the true teaching lies in prayer and devotion to Gods and not always in the writings?

I have always put more emphasis on prayer,devotion, and meditation.

[Apep]

 

Base your bhakti on what the scriptures say, not on what the Shiva Purana T.V. serial tells you. There is nothing wrong with having devotion to Shiva, but base it on something solid.

What is more solid then trying to obtain peace with divinity? Who cares about trivialities of names?

[Yogkriya]

Om Namah shivay!!

 

Yes, in principle, that is the whole idea. Rest is technical. But in essence, this is important.

Some sects have the agenda to put other names down to perch themselves higher etc. So we have to vociforate. Hindus don't care who you pray to. Krishna or Shiva. As long as you are moving towards divinity, peace and realizing your higher self. Or as long as you are in devotional progression towards your divine deity / divinity / realization. But Yes divine names of the lord liberate - when meditated upon with devotion, faith, concentration and understanding. And trivialities of names are not a reason for argument really.

 

Om Samb Sadaashivaay namah!!

 

 

 

What is more solid then trying to obtain peace with divinity? Who cares about trivialities of names?

[Yogkriya]

I would say, base your bhakti on bhakti of the Lord and not even scriptures.

Kabir never read out from books to people, nor did Christ said open page number so and so, canto number so and so and repeat..!

But on the other hand, if you see carefully, tv serials are made after researching the scriptures. All the stories are taken from the scriptures and not concocted a new. The Mahabharat serial making had the directors and script writers researching and consulting geetas, and mahabharats and organizations involved in their research including Iskcon. So was the ramayana serial researched on Goswami Tulsidas's RamCharitmanas and Valmiki Ramayana. And they have to give it in the credits on screen. All researchers have to quote their source of information.

 

Yes you are very right - there is nothing wrong with having devotion to Lord Shiva!! And Shiva is the base for everything. What can be a more solid base than that?

 

Namaamee Shameeshaan Nirvaanroopam,

Vibhun vyaapkam brahm veydaswaroopam.

Nijam-nirgunam Nirvikalpam Nireeham,

Chidaakaashamaakaasanvaasham bhajeham II

 

Om Samb Sadaashivaay namah!!

 

 

Base your bhakti on what the scriptures say, not on what the Shiva Purana T.V. serial tells you. There is nothing wrong with having devotion to Shiva, but base it on something solid.

[Yogkriya]

Yes. Very Commendable!

 

This spirit of togetherness is important and we must realize the essence of the teachings and not fight over mine and yours. This is also well reflected in Hinduism.

 

Like someone once said: The problem is not with Shiva and Rama, but with the monekeys of Rama and ghosts of Shiva!!

- in other words, problem is with the followers who fight and not the Lords themselves!!

 

See how the Orthodox Russian Christians do not accept the western Catholics. But both seem to follow the same Christ who was neither Russian nor Italian!! What an irony!! Two brothers of the same father hate each other!!

 

Om Namah Shivaya!!!

 

 

 

Pankaj wrote:

"Shiva and Krsna are same in the sense they always think of one another, but this is reffering to Sada-siva"

 

Guest wrote:

 

Agreed! Good!!

Krishna and Shiva or Rama and Shiva or Vishnu and Shiva always think about each other. That is why the Hare Krishnas think that Shiva is devoted to Krishna and the Shaivs think that Krishna is devoted to Shiva! Both are true, but only half true on individual level as they want to stress only their side of the story and reject the other side! Where as both Hari and Shiva love each other so dearly. We have to accept this fact as this love has been revealed to the world through many yugas where Hari has worshiped Shiva as Rama as Krishna. This is true. So Hinduism or as it was earlier called Sanatana Dharma, is very large hearted and liberal and not closed one line philosophy. It takes both Shiva and Krishna together, never belitteling the other. It is a liberal system that accomodates a wide variety of beliefs, and the beliefs are based on the vedic culture. HIndus are full of love for Krishna and for Shiva. That's why the same Hindu would go and worship in a Shiva temple and in a Krishna temple.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

But on the other hand, if you see carefully, tv serials are made after researching the scriptures. All the stories are taken from the scriptures and not concocted a new.

There are plenty of made up things in all of the religious TV serials, including the Mahabharata. The level of research done by a TV producer to finish a 90 episode serial in one year isn't sufficient, especially considering sants and sadhus have spent their whole lives studying scripture and yet some still make mistakes.

 

Overall the religious TV serials are better than the regular television people watch, but sometimes mixed up information is worse than no information.

[Apep]

 

Om Namah shivay!!

Yes, in principle, that is the whole idea. Rest is technical. But in essence, this is important.

Some sects have the agenda to put other names down to perch themselves higher etc. So we have to vociforate. Hindus don't care who you pray to. Krishna or Shiva. As long as you are moving towards divinity, peace and realizing your higher self. Or as long as you are in devotional progression towards your divine deity / divinity / realization. But Yes divine names of the lord liberate - when meditated upon with devotion, faith, concentration and understanding. And trivialities of names are not a reason for argument really.

Om Samb Sadaashivaay namah!!

Om Namah Shivay.

I agree with you we must all come up with this conclusion.

[Guest guest]

Without Guru, Sadhu, Sastra we can never understand sincerely what the vedas truly mean. Ofcourse after this reply, the ones who are so attached will still rebuttle but when we have imperfect senses we cannot digest what doesnt justify our ignorance.

 

Lets see the puranic view.

 

SB 12.13.1: Suta Gosvami said: Unto that personality whom Brahma, Varuṇa, Indra, Rudra and the Maruts praise by chanting transcendental hymns and reciting the Vedas with all their corollaries, pada-kramas and Upaniṣads, to whom the chanters of the Sama Veda always sing, whom the perfected yogīs see within their minds after fixing themselves in trance and absorbing themselves within Him, and whose limit can never be found by any demigod or demon — unto that Supreme Personality of Godhead I offer my humble obeisances.

 

SB 12.13.3: Now please hear a summation of the verse length of each of the Puraṇas. Then hear of the prime subject and purpose of this Bhagavata Puraṇa, the proper method of giving it as a gift, the glories of such gift-giving, and finally the glories of hearing and chanting this literature.

 

SB 12.13.11-12: From beginning to end, the Srimad-Bhagavatam is full of narrations that encourage renunciation of material life, as well as nectarean accounts of Lord Hari's transcendental pastimes, which give ecstasy to the saintly devotees and demigods. This Bhagavatam is the essence of all Vedanta philosophy because its subject matter is the Absolute Truth, which, while nondifferent from the spirit soul, is the ultimate reality, one without a second. The goal of this literature is exclusive devotional service unto that Supreme Truth.

 

SB 12.13.14: All other Puranic scriptures shine forth in the assembly of saintly devotees only as long as that great ocean of nectar, Srimad-Bhagavatam, is not heard

 

SB 12.13.15: Srimad-Bhagavatam is declared to be the ESSENCE of all Vedanta philosophy. One who has felt satisfaction from its nectarean mellow will never be attracted to any other LITERATURE!

 

 

Now, Lord Siva's Position. Jai Siva Shambu!

 

SB 12.13.16: Just as the Ganga is the greatest of all rivers, Lord Acyuta the supreme among deities and Lord Sambhu [siva] the greatest of Vaisnavas, so Srimad-Bhagavatam is the greatest of all Puraṇas

 

SB 12.13.18: Srimad-Bhagavatam is the spotless Puraṇa. It is most dear to the Vaisnavas because it describes the pure and supreme knowledge of the paramahamsas. This Bhagavatam reveals the means for becoming free from all material work, together with the processes of transcendental knowledge, renunciation and devotion. Anyone who seriously tries to understand Srimad-Bhagavatam, who properly hears and chants it with devotion, becomes completely liberated.

 

So, there is the conclusion of the vedas. I hope this is informative.

 

There is more to come later

[Yogkriya]

Yes. But the Vedas is not all about Bhagwatam.

 

Anyone who properly hears and chants Shiv Geeta with devotion, becomes completely liberated too. Would you disagree??

 

It's all a matter of personal sadhna level, devotion and grace from SadGuru and the Lord.

 

You talked a lot about Vedas, but you didn't quote from a single Veda!!!

 

Yoga trains the faculties of the mind and body and detaches the senses from mundane activities to the next level of Dhyan leading to Dharana and even Samadhi!!

 

Shiva is the greatest Vaishnava and Krishna is the greatest Shaiva! This needs to be understood.

 

Namah Shivaya!!

[Apep]

The Gods exist without the books of men. Men can see the Gods and their acts everyday if they look hard enough without reading a word.

 

And a man can feel the divine through his heart without even knowing a guru.

 

The first time I felt the divinity it was by myself secluded in nature with a gentle breeze of wind upon my face.

 

The words of wisdom of the vedas and gitas are great. They are the great teachings of us all. We should revere them.

 

We must remember though that the power of the Gods by themselves is more wiser.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Anyone who properly hears and chants Shiv Geeta with devotion, becomes completely liberated too. Would you disagree??

Yes, I would disagree as the Shiva Gita is not even a commonly accepted scripture among any traditional Vedanta school. The Bhagavad Gita on the other hand is universally acknowledge as infallible, on par with shruti, by all schools of Vedantic thought.

 

There is also a Ganesha Gita, where all 700 verse of the Gita have been taken and the words "sri bhagavan uvaca" have been replaced with "sri ganeshovaca". There is no limit to the number of manufactured scriptures in Hinduism. Thus one relies on parampara, sampradaya and traditional lineages to identify the authenticity of a sciptural text.

[Apep]

 

Yes, I would disagree as the Shiva Gita is not even a commonly accepted scripture among any traditional Vedanta school. The Bhagavad Gita on the other hand is universally acknowledge as infallible, on par with shruti, by all schools of Vedantic thought.

There is also a Ganesha Gita, where all 700 verse of the Gita have been taken and the words "sri bhagavan uvaca" have been replaced with "sri ganeshovaca". There is no limit to the number of manufactured scriptures in Hinduism. Thus one relies on parampara, sampradaya and traditional lineages to identify the authenticity of a sciptural text.

Why is the Shiva Gita not accepted?

[Guest guest]

If you can read Chaintanya Charitamrta by Srila prabhupada, you will get clear point. There is explained very well that Krsna is supreme. All of them are Krsna devote, Krsna is devote of love. when you chant and serve krsna, you will be free from material desires, he will not ask to bag Vardan, he knows what to give, to go back to Krsna.

[Guest guest]

Really??

 

 

 

 

[vrajavasi]

Radhe Krishna,

The name of lord shiva is clearly mentioned in Yajur Veda. In the middle of Shri Rudram you would find the verse "Nama Shivayacha".

Shri Veda Vyasa only compiled and divided the vedas for the purpose of proper implementation of the same in performance of yagyas. Every major yagya is performed with scholar from all the three vedas each one of them having separate roles in the performance of yagyas.

about a 100 shakas (Branches) of yajur veda only one is available now. of about 1000 shakas of sama veda only 3 is availablel now. about a 100 and odd shakas of rig veda only 1 is available now.

Veda vyasa did not compose the vedas but compiled them.

A clear study of vedas would reveal that not only shiva,

but Shiva, Vishnu, Ganesha, Surya, Shakthi all of them find repetitive references in vedas.

Regarding puranas - in Every purana, (puranas written as per purana lakshanas all of which should be available in every purana - one among them is shrishti varnana - how the universe and living beings are created) - there are details about the creation

All the puranas composed by veda vyasa who is an incarnation of lord vishnu.

It is said that

"Vyasaya vishnu roopaya vyasa rupaya vishnave"

From the puranas composed by Veda Vyasa - depending upon the purana one takes for interpretation - one can comfortably argue that Shiva or Vishnu or Ganesha or Surya or Shakthi or Even Skanda has created the world and all the deities including those other than the main deity of the purana.

In shiva purana it is shiva who has created everything including lord vishnu

In Vishnu Purana it is lord vishnu who has created eveerything including lord shiva

likewse it goes.

So who created whom is rather a matter of interpretation and depends upon the tool of interpretation.

Radhe Krishna

[kushal]

let me tell you a short story.once in a boat three men were going where that i do not know but all the three were hindus.suddenly a heavy storm came and the boat started sinking. the first hindu said om namah shivaye and jumped into the water lord shiva came and rescued him. the second one chanted om namo bhagvate vasudevaye with firm faith and lord krsna came and rescued him.the third one said om namah shivaye after two min he again said om namo bhagvate vasudevaye but nobody came there for help.he then said om ganeshaye namah ..... but he died.After going to heaven or whatever you may call it he asked god why didn't you came for help. god said though i have a huge wardrope but it takes time to change clothes you should have chanted only one mantra .....

therefore shiva and krsna are one and only one and we should worship one and only one of them.

for further details you should read the 12th chapter BHAKTI yog of the BHAGVAD GITA that why one should worship a personal god.

[Shivam]

 

Hare Krishna,

I have the same problem - I feel torn between worshipping Lord Shiva and Lord Krishna. I am currently watching the Shiv puran and you are rite, it does lead one to believe that Shiva is supreme to whom even Lord Vishnu bows down to. I would like to have this clarified too as my heart is with Krsna but am confused over whether I should be worshipping Shiva if he is the supreme one.

I too have this problem. From a young age I was always a Shiv Devotee and a Krishna Devotee. But I know that Visnu as well has a special spot in his multi-universal heart for his greatest Devotee Lord Sadasiva. Other devotees instructed me to pray to Shiv for Visnu-bhakti through the Hare Krsna maha-mantra.

Hare Krsna

[vrajavasi]

Radhe Krishna,

 

There need not be any confusion. You should be steadfastly worship one god. This does not at all mean u have disrespect for another. If u worship a god - it means a very deep thing. U should recite holy granthas. do nama kirthan. do japa. engage in satsanga. if u engage in this systematic way, u would find ur concentration completely submerged in the worship of only one god. Be it shiva or vishnu. to worship one god and maintaining ekagratha in worship would only give u fruits of worshiip. then teleserials. i am sorry these are highly commercialised and does not give proper purport of any purana. rather than wasting ur time in viewing teleserials, read holy granthas. if u engage in krishna bhakthi, read Shrimad Bhagavatham, Bhagavath Geetha. If u r a ramabhaktha, read Valmiki Ramayana. But for one thing, maintain ekagratha. Worshiip one god and with dedication. All else are devathas. U need not indulge in nindha of other devathas. whenever u happen to go to a temple of other devatha, pray that u get bhakthi of ur god.

 

Radhe Krishna

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Worship of Krishna includes worship of His devotees. You cannot worship Krishna without worshipping and respecting His devotees.

[vincimax]

Shiva, Vishnu,Brahma,Christ or Allah and all their manifestations are just interpretations of the ONE and the INFINITE whom we refer to as God. There is no need to feel torn between our devotion to Shiva and Vishnu. Whatever path of devotion you choose you shall meet GOD on your day of judgement. It is best to see God in our surroundings and in our deeds. So do no great things only small things with great care.

[vrajavasi]

Radhe Krishna,

 

Hi, shivam and JN das, i belong to smartha sampradaya, where we do panchayatana puja. But in spite of it, Sagunopasana devatha is one and only one for the purpose reaping the fruits of bhakthi. In devatha upasana, Ekagra bhakthi is very much required to completely surrender urself at the feet of god u worship. Although puja is offered to all the five deities viz., Shiva, Vishnu, Ganesha, Surya and Durga, when it comes to upasana, we steadfastly surrender ourselves to the one God who is the upasya devatha. Plus the upasana marga also differs depending upon the upasya devatha. For example, those who engage in shaktha upasana are very much invloved in manthra sadhana and go in the route of ashtanga yoga. This is the most difficult path which requires very dedicated efforts. Even a small slip would give immense harm. Mispronounciation of manthras are not left lightly. In Upasana of Shiva and Vishnu Bhakthi is the upasana marga. Again, only from a smartha platform one does shiva bhakthi with bhakthi as the upasana marga. In all other Shiva upasana margas, again the content is manthra saadhana and yogabhyasa which are very carefully followed and are very difficult in this kali yuga.

In vishnu upasana, the path is very simple and is totally bhakthi based. Innumerable bhakthas cutting across so many sampradayas have worshipped Lord Rama, Lord Krishna and his other incarnations through bhakthi marga (Although there are also examples of great saints who have attained lord vishnu through yogabhyasa and manthra saadhana). Here lord takes care of every soul who even once wish to reach the lotus feet of God. Mispronounciation of God's name in nama japa is not frowned upon by Lord Vishnu. When valmiki did his rama nama japa as "Mara Mara", god lovingly took it as "Rama Rama". Such is the simplicity in vaishnava bhakthi upasana.

Furhter, in Shrimad Bhagavatha, it is explained that a person who reads the grantha in a fashion

"Yasmin prathishlokam Abadhyavatyapi"

meaning even if a soul recites Shrimad Bhagavatha, by reading even every shloka with mispronounciation lord krishna lovingly accepts the efforts of his devotee and bless him with exalted krishna bhakthi.

The same with rama bhakthi.

But in nutshell "Ekagra Bhakthi" is very much very much very much needed which ever god u worship.

 

Radhe Krishna

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Thank you for that reply. It is a very good post showing the perspective of the smarta sampradaya.