Shiva and Krsna

[sumedh]

Haribol

 

Well, i do not like to play these games where you change the context to somewhere else. The original context was from Mahabharata which is already answered in the scripture as quoted before.

 

As for your quotes from Sri Rudram, it is to be noted that in the tenth anuvaka the sage asks Rudra to pray to the Deity who resides in the cave of heart (who is Lord Nrsimha as given in Nrsimha-tapaniya-upanishad). Then Rg-Veda 7.40.5 says that Rudra gets his Rudratva from Sri Hari, birth of Rudra in numerous sruti statements, that Sri Hari is the inner controller of all etc.

 

btw in reply to your statement

 

Oh yes. You do not understand Self. Instead of interpreting based on puranic concepts embedded in thoughts have an open mind. Shiva is the Self of all, including Vishu.

 

one can say:

 

Oh yes. You do not understand Brahman. Instead of interpreting based on your own concepts embedded in thoughts have an open mind. Vishnu is the Paramatma in all, including Shiva.

 

so its best to avoid making them.

[atanu]

 

Haribol

 

Well, i do not like to play these games where you change the context to somewhere else. The original context was from Mahabharata which is already answered in the scripture as quoted before.

 

As for your quotes from Sri Rudram, it is to be noted that in the tenth anuvaka the sage asks Rudra to pray to the Deity who resides in the cave of heart (who is Lord Nrsimha as given in Nrsimha-tapaniya-upanishad). Then Rg-Veda 7.40.5 says that Rudra gets his Rudratva from Sri Hari, birth of Rudra in numerous sruti statements, that Sri Hari is the inner controller of all etc.

 

btw in reply to your statement

 

one can say:

 

so its best to avoid making them.

 

 

Rudram and RV verses are translated as per your wish and the translations are wrong since the following verses already clarify who is in the Hridaya of all:

 

From Yajur Veda

Namo hridayyaya cha niveshpya ya cha

Salutations to Him who is in hridayyaya and in the grace.

 

Namo vah kirikebhyo devanam hrudayou bhyo

Salutations to you who showers grace and who dwell in the hearts of the Gods.

 

 

 

Rudra is the Hridaya and He resides there like lion.

 

 

 

Sama Veda XIX Soma Pavamana

 

1. Father of holy hymns, Soma flows onward, the father of the earth, father of heaven.Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the father who begat Indra and Vishnu.

Param Atma has no progenitor. I am sorry.

 

 

Sama Veda XI Indra

 

------3. Vishnu in the lofty ruling power, Varuna, Mitra sing thy praise:

In thee the Maruts' company have great delight.

[Yogkriya]

Yes this is the Yajur Veda verse.

So right!!!

I used to wonder why they hardly quote the Vedas like Yajur, Sama and Rig?!

And why they had to retranslate most of the scriptures they use!

The answer is clear.

 

 

 

Rudram and RV verses are translated as per your wish and the translations are wrong since the following verses already clarify who is in the Hridaya of all:

 

From Yajur Veda

Namo hridayyaya cha niveshpya ya cha

Salutations to Him who is in hridayyaya and in the grace.

 

Namo vah kirikebhyo devanam hrudayou bhyo

Salutations to you who showers grace and who dwell in the hearts of the Gods.

 

 

 

Rudra is the Hridaya and He resides there like lion.

 

 

 

Sama Veda XIX Soma Pavamana

 

1. Father of holy hymns, Soma flows onward, the father of the earth, father of heaven.Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the father who begat Indra and Vishnu.

Param Atma has no progenitor. I am sorry.

 

 

Sama Veda XI Indra

 

------3. Vishnu in the lofty ruling power, Varuna, Mitra sing thy praise:

In thee the Maruts' company have great delight.

[Avinash]

 

Vishnu in the lofty ruling power, Varuna, Mitra sing thy praise:

In thee the Maruts' company have great delight.[/quote]

 

This verse is in the glorification of Indra. So, should we believe that Indra is greater than Visnu?

[Yogesh from za]

Remember when Indra Devta became puffed up when people of Vraj Dham were worshiping him?

 

The glorification and prays he got was not meant for him But directed to Lord of All Sacrifices Vishnu.

 

He forgot and became puffed up with EGO thinking himself Bhagawan ( Supreme ).

 

So what did Lord Krsna do to teach Him a Lesson? If you don't know read Krsna lila

 

Lord Shiva is not an ordinary personality but He is also not on the supreme platform of Bhagwan but that does not take away any glories of Maha_Dev. He is the Greatest Vaishnava. Har Har MAHA_DEV!!!!!

 

Please correct me if I am wrong but did Lord Shiva not take on the form of BijrangBali (Hanuman) just so that he can get a chance to Serve the Lord in Ram Lila

 

And anyway if Lord Krsna becomes a servant of Lord Shiva it is because as Lord Krsna says he becomes enslaved and bound by their LOVE for Him that he lovingly Serves his servants. Just Look At The Glories of Bhagawan that he becomes a servant of his servants. As in the case of the Pandavas.

 

Lord Shiva is not like Indra that he would cause such Apraadh. That is why Indra is called Devta and Lord Shiva is Maha-Dev. Lord Shiva is One who is constantly meditating on the Lotus Feet of His most Dear LOrd and hates getting disturbed by Cunning fellows Demons looking for Wishes/Boons to be fullfilled Like Ravana. Therefore just to get rid of them he gives in to their demands (Bhole_naath!!) just so that he can go back to meditating on his Most Worshipable Lord.

 

Just Look at Ravana he wanted to enjoy Laxmi without her dear most Lord and he Ravana was a great servant of Mahadev.

Just look at what happened to him.

 

The Glories of Maha-Dev is that he constantly Glorifies and Seeks opportunities to be near his most beloved object of worship.

So we should Glorify Maha-Dev (Har Har Maha_Dev !!!) and learn to be the servants of the servants of Lord Hari the most beloved object of worship and sacrifice.

 

Hare Krsna

 

Jay Nitai Gaura-Hari

 

Jay Sirla Prabhupada (another great servant of the Lord who sits at his masters feet)

[atanu]

 

Remember when Indra Devta became puffed up when people of Vraj Dham were worshiping him?

 

The glorification and prays he got was not meant for him But directed to Lord of All Sacrifices Vishnu.

 

He forgot and became puffed up with EGO thinking himself Bhagawan ( Supreme ).

 

So what did Lord Krsna do to teach Him a Lesson? If you don't know read Krsna lila

 

Lord Shiva is not an ordinary personality but He is also not on the supreme platform of Bhagwan but that does not take away any glories of Maha_Dev. He is the Greatest Vaishnava. Har Har MAHA_DEV!!!!!

 

Please correct me if I am wrong but did Lord Shiva not take on the form of BijrangBali (Hanuman) just so that he can get a chance to Serve the Lord in Ram Lila

 

And anyway if Lord Krsna becomes a servant of Lord Shiva it is because as Lord Krsna says he becomes enslaved and bound by their LOVE for Him that he lovingly Serves his servants. Just Look At The Glories of Bhagawan that he becomes a servant of his servants. As in the case of the Pandavas.

 

Lord Shiva is not like Indra that he would cause such Apraadh. That is why Indra is called Devta and Lord Shiva is Maha-Dev. Lord Shiva is One who is constantly meditating on the Lotus Feet of His most Dear LOrd and hates getting disturbed by Cunning fellows Demons looking for Wishes/Boons to be fullfilled Like Ravana. Therefore just to get rid of them he gives in to their demands (Bhole_naath!!) just so that he can go back to meditating on his Most Worshipable Lord.

 

Just Look at Ravana he wanted to enjoy Laxmi without her dear most Lord and he Ravana was a great servant of Mahadev.

Just look at what happened to him.

 

The Glories of Maha-Dev is that he constantly Glorifies and Seeks opportunities to be near his most beloved object of worship.

So we should Glorify Maha-Dev (Har Har Maha_Dev !!!) and learn to be the servants of the servants of Lord Hari the most beloved object of worship and sacrifice.

 

Hare Krsna

 

Jay Nitai Gaura-Hari

 

Jay Sirla Prabhupada (another great servant of the Lord who sits at his masters feet)

 

 

 

Nice stories.

 

One who does not know Lord Krishna as unborn Mahesvara in reality, does not know.

 

 

Om Namah Shivayya

[Yogkriya]

Story time over?

Excuse me but "Shiva will not make such an aparadha etc..." seem childish statements! There are no definitions of "aparadha" for the Lord of all the Universes! the Lord who showed all the ten avataras of Vishnu including Krishna avatara and his lila of killing Kamsa in his Universal form to Rama more than a yuga before the appearance of Krishna himself, doesn't need to meditate on an object to achieve something or doesn't need to go by the ten aparadha definitions of Rupa Goswami!!

 

1. Who decided Lord Shiva's "platform"?? No one I have heard or known of!

2. "If Lord Krishna becomes Lord Shiva's servant" - upto here is correct. But then "it is because he says" is taken from another place to give the mood you want. Why Krishna worshipped Shiva is told by Krishna himself in the Mahabharata - Anushasana Parva!!! That is the correct answer. Krishna serves his servants and devotees at many occassions - Arjuna's case is a major one. Yes here he says that he gets bound by their love. He gets bound by the love of the Gopis as well and of course, of Radha.

But Krishna ellaborately explains why he worshipped Shiva.

And why Krishna became the greatest Shiva Bhakta - the greated Shaiva!!!

 

Om Namah Shivaya!!

 

 

Remember when Indra Devta became puffed up when people of Vraj Dham were worshiping him?

 

The glorification and prays he got was not meant for him But directed to Lord of All Sacrifices Vishnu.

 

He forgot and became puffed up with EGO thinking himself Bhagawan ( Supreme ).

 

So what did Lord Krsna do to teach Him a Lesson? If you don't know read Krsna lila

 

Lord Shiva is not an ordinary personality but He is also not on the supreme platform of Bhagwan but that does not take away any glories of Maha_Dev. He is the Greatest Vaishnava. Har Har MAHA_DEV!!!!!

 

Please correct me if I am wrong but did Lord Shiva not take on the form of BijrangBali (Hanuman) just so that he can get a chance to Serve the Lord in Ram Lila

 

And anyway if Lord Krsna becomes a servant of Lord Shiva it is because as Lord Krsna says he becomes enslaved and bound by their LOVE for Him that he lovingly Serves his servants. Just Look At The Glories of Bhagawan that he becomes a servant of his servants. As in the case of the Pandavas.

 

Lord Shiva is not like Indra that he would cause such Apraadh. That is why Indra is called Devta and Lord Shiva is Maha-Dev. Lord Shiva is One who is constantly meditating on the Lotus Feet of His most Dear LOrd and hates getting disturbed by Cunning fellows Demons looking for Wishes/Boons to be fullfilled Like Ravana. Therefore just to get rid of them he gives in to their demands (Bhole_naath!!) just so that he can go back to meditating on his Most Worshipable Lord.

 

Just Look at Ravana he wanted to enjoy Laxmi without her dear most Lord and he Ravana was a great servant of Mahadev.

Just look at what happened to him.

 

The Glories of Maha-Dev is that he constantly Glorifies and Seeks opportunities to be near his most beloved object of worship.

So we should Glorify Maha-Dev (Har Har Maha_Dev !!!) and learn to be the servants of the servants of Lord Hari the most beloved object of worship and sacrifice.

 

Hare Krsna

 

Jay Nitai Gaura-Hari

 

Jay Sirla Prabhupada (another great servant of the Lord who sits at his masters feet)

[Yogesh from za]

What do you mean by stories??? are you referring to Bhagwans pastimes or lila as some fairytales???? Then I would regard that as a Blasphemy.

 

Yes I may sound childish in comparison to your Greatness in knowladge of the diffrerent Vedas. So I will not argue with Such GREAT PERSONS as yourselves who are very knowladgable in the different Vedas but to say that with my limited intelligence I surrender my self to the GURU who comes in the Bonafide Displic succession with direct link to the supreme Lord Hari, Lord Krsna, Lord Chaitanya.

 

 

That guru who belongs to the Gaudiya Linage. That Guru who undertook so much hardship in his old age experiancing 2 heart attacks, one who and came to America with almost nothing but on the strength of his Gurudev's orders and total faith in Lord Krsna to teach the world about the glories of Mahaprabhu and Lord Krsna. To me his words weigh a great deal more than any dry "intelligent" phlosophical speculations.

 

As I have said before Yes I may have limited intelligence compared to you, so let me not waste it in trying to argue with such Knowladgable persons as yourselves and I will follow the knowladge that The Dear Most Servant of Lord Krsna has given me.

 

So all I can say is Yes Very Good Worship Lord Shiva that he may give you even more intelligence to understand Him even better.

 

Jay Shri Krsna

 

All Glories to the Vaishnav servants of the servants of the Lord

 

JAy Sirla Prabhupada

[Yogesh from za]

Sorry no post

[atanu]

 

What do you mean by stories??? are you referring to Bhagwans pastimes or lila as some fairytales???? Then I would regard that as a Blasphemy.

 

 

STORIES ARE WHAT YOU ARE POSTING WITHOUT KNOWING THE LEELA FULLY. SHIVA RUDRA IS BHAGAWAN, AS SHOWN BELOW FROM VEDA. TRYING TO FIND APARADHA HERE IS MAHAPAPA.

 

Shri Rudram 1.10

pramuJNcha dhanvanastvamubhayorArtniyorjyAm.h |

yAshcha te hasta ishhavaH parA tA bhagavo vapa ||

(Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1; Rik 10)

bhagavo - O Bhagavan

O Bhagavan (God) Rudra! You are endowed with great lordship and worship (by others). Untie the bow string from the two ends of Your bow. Abandon the arrows in Your hand.

 

 

Lord Krishna is truly that. The way you know Lord Krishna is ignorance. First fully understand what Krishna says or show evidence of your claims from Vedas Samhitas.

 

 

Svet. Up

6.7 tamiishvaraaNaaM paramaM maheshvara.n

ta.n devataanaaM parama.n cha daivatam.h .

patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad.h\-

vidaama devaM bhuvaneshamiiDyam.h .. 7..

6.7 WE WILL KNOW THIS MIGHTIEST ONE WHO IS FAR ABOVE ALL THE MIGHTY – THIS <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comSUMMIT</st1:City> OF THE GODS AND THEIR GODHEAD, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, WHO TOWERETH HIGH ABOVE ALL <st1:place w:st=" /><st1:City w:st="on">SUMMIT</st1:City> AND GREATNESSES. LET US LEARN OF GOD FOR HE IS THIS UNIVERSES' MASTER AND ALL SHALL ADORE HIM.

Shruti ParamaM parastaad is reserved for Bhagawan Shivah, one beyond comparison. Only very immature can say that Bhagwan is superior to this and that.

 

 

Om

[Yogesh from za]

do you follow. For me to accept what you are saying you must give me the Lineage of the Guru parampara from where this knowladge is handed down. Who is the current Guru that has given this knowladge, who is that Guru's teachers or previous saintly personality who can verify their teachings on the Vedic shastra you are talking about???

 

In order for me to accept what you are saying as Authentic You have to go through this Test : GURU - Sadhu & Shastra

 

If you can give me refrence to the Guru parampara or lineage (by this I mean currently still in existance ) from where this knowladge has been handed down UN_ADULTARATED then I can better understand what you are saying and be able to follow it Logically.

 

If you are just quoting Verses from "Vedic Shastra" written by some scholar or setimentalist person who has no (current) linage to back what he is saying then how shure are you about its Authenticity. Then sorry I cannot accept what you are saying or quoting.

 

Jay Sirla Prabhupada (Dear most servant of the servant of Lord Hari)

 

Hare Krsna

[destroyer]

 

 

 

Svet. Up

 

6.7 tamiishvaraaNaaM paramaM maheshvara.n

ta.n devataanaaM parama.n cha daivatam.h .

patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad.h\-

vidaama devaM bhuvaneshamiiDyam.h .. 7..

 

6.7 WE WILL KNOW THIS MIGHTIEST ONE WHO IS FAR ABOVE ALL THE MIGHTY – THIS SUMMIT AND GREATNESSES. LET US LEARN OF GOD FOR HE IS THIS UNIVERSES' MASTER AND ALL SHALL ADORE HIM.

 

Shruti ParamaM parastaad is reserved for Bhagawan Shivah, one beyond comparison. Only very immature can say that Bhagwan is superior to this and that.

 

 

Om

 

LOL..

 

Then what is the meaning of following Shruthis:

 

" Ekohavai NArAyaNAseeth na Brahma nEsaanah.." (Mahopanishad)

"NarayaNAth Brahma jAyathE , nArAyaNAth rusro jAyathE" (Narayanopanishad)

 

the above verse you given from Svetasvatara upanishad tells about NArAyaNa only , as he all names mention only Narayana (see Bhallaveya shruthi). And vedas never contradict .

 

Don't say your personal belief as truth of Vedas's .

[Yogesh from za]

and Analyse from Svet Upanishad 6.7 Because you have just pasted a verse and not given a word for word Analysis from Sanskrit to English.

 

Tamishi - Tamas means ignorance or mode of Darkness

Varnam paranaam - paying homage/obeisance

Maheshvaram - Lord Shiva Lord Of Mahesh Dham

 

 

And any way please Authenticate what you are quoting as above post mentions

 

Haribol!!!

 

Jay Sirla Prabhupada

[destroyer]

Please explain us your openions first :

 

What is your openion on Lord Shiva (Uma pathi) ?

 

Do you believe he is the Brahman ?

 

do you agree that there are Brahman and jeevas ?

[atanu]

 

and Analyse from Svet Upanishad 6.7 Because you have just pasted a verse and not given a word for word Analysis from Sanskrit to English.

 

Tamishi - Tamas means ignorance or mode of Darkness

Varnam paranaam - paying homage/obeisance

Maheshvaram - Lord Shiva Lord Of Mahesh Dham

 

 

And any way please Authenticate what you are quoting as above post mentions

 

Haribol!!!

 

Jay Sirla Prabhupada

 

 

The word is tamiishvaraaNaaM -- the Lord of consciousness, the shushupti.

 

 

And you people who think Tamasha is dark are ignorant. Tamasha is full of light not known to senses.

 

The following lines in the nR^isimha-tApanIya Upanishad :

 

eSha dehAnte tamasaH paramaM dhAma prApnuyAt.h | yatra virajo nR^isimho bhAsate tatra upAsate | tasadR^ishA munayaH

 

 

 

The shushupti is Lord Pragnya -- Sarvesvara. The Turiya is the Self.

[atanu]

 

Please explain us your openions first :

 

What is your openion on Lord Shiva (Uma pathi) ?

 

Do you believe he is the Brahman ?

 

do you agree that there are Brahman and jeevas ?

 

 

Namaskar,

 

I see you have assumed the name of Lord Shiva. Well.

 

 

Mandukya Upanishad

 

7. The Fourth is thought of as that which is not conscious of the internal world, nor conscious of the external world, nor conscious of both the worlds, nor dense with consciousness, nor simple consciousness, nor unconsciousness, which is unseen, actionless, incomprehensible, uninferable, unthinkable, indescribable, whose proof consists in the identity of the Self (in all states), in which all phenomena come to a cessation, and which is unchanging shivoadvaitam. That is the Self; that is to be known.

 

 

Narayana is known to feel lonely. Can this be true of the Turiya Self? Infact Narayana and Rudra are very well defined as below:

 

Mahanarayana Upanishad

 

dvaavi.nsho.anuvaakaH .

 

namo hiraNyabaahave hiraNyavarNaaya hiraNyaruupaaya hiraNyapataye.ambikaapataya umaapataye pashupataye namo namaH .. 1..

 

trayovi.nsho.anuvaakaH .

R^ita{\m+} satyaM paraM brahma purushha .n kR^ishhNapi~Ngalam.h .uurdhvareta.n viruupaaksha.n vishvaruupaaya vai namo namaH .. 1..

 

chaturvi.nsho.anuvaakaH .

sarvo vai rudrastasmai rudraaya namo astu . purushho vai rudraH sanmaho namo namaH .vishvaM bhuutaM bhuvana.n chitraM bahudhaa jaata.n jaayamaana.n cha yat.h . sarvo hyeshha rudrastasmai rudraaya namo astu .. 1..

 

 

 

trayodasho.anuvaakaH .

 

sahasrashiirshha.n deva.n vishvaaksha.n vishvashambhuvam.h .

vishva.n naaraayaNa.n devamaksharaM paramaM prabhum.h .. 1..

vishvataH parama.n nitya.n vishva.n naaraayaNa{\m+} harim.h . vishvamevedaM purushhastadvishvamupajiivati .. 2..

pati.n vishvasyaatmeshvara{\m+} shaashvata{\m+} shivamachyutam.h .naaraayaNaM mahaaj~neya.n vishvaatmaanaM paraayaNam.h .. 3..

naaraayaNaH paraM brahma tattva .n naaraayaNaH paraH .

 

 

End of citation

 

Advaitins see no difference between param brahma tattwa Narayana and param brahma Purusha ambikaapataya umaapataye pashupataye Ritam satyaM paraM brahma viruupaaksha vishvaruupaaya Lord Shiva, who is here AHAM -- a manifestation of of shivoadvaitam Self.

 

 

Param Brahma tattva can only constitute Param Brahma and Param Brahma tattva can only be present in Param Brahma Purusha. With a apriori view that Narayana is different from Shiva and who is different from Vishnu, you will never be able to reconcile many Veda samhita verses. The truth is one shivoadvaita OM, which can be viewed as AUM (in three states), but the states are not the real beings. The Self is ONE and always real. It cannnot be cut. It is One but appears as if divided in bodies. It is known as param purusha, param brahman or mahesvara. All terms mean the same indescribable nameless Self.

 

 

 

OM

[atanu]

Svet. Up,

 

4.18 yadaa.atamastaanna divaa na raatriH

na sannachaasachchhiva eva kevalaH .

tadaxara.n tat.h saviturvareNyaM

praGYaa cha tasmaat.h prasR^itaa puraaNii .. 18

 

4.18. When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva (the blessed) alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient praGYaa proceeded thence.

 

6.7 tamiishvaraaNaaM paramaM maheshvara.n

ta.n devataanaaM parama.n cha daivatam.h .

patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad.h\-

vidaama devaM bhuvaneshamiiDyam.h .. 7..

 

 

6.7 WE WILL KNOW THIS MIGHTIEST ONE WHO IS FAR ABOVE ALL THE MIGHTY – THIS SUMMIT OF THE GODS AND THEIR GODHEAD, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, WHO TOWERETH HIGH ABOVE ALL SUMMIT AND GREATNESSES. LET US LEARN OF GOD FOR HE IS THIS UNIVERSES' MASTER AND ALL SHALL ADORE HIM.

[Guest guest]

no idea! but all gods are one

[Yogesh from za]

darkness and Jyoti means light. And you still have not Given proof of the Authtification of all the verses you have pasted here!!!!

 

Govindam Adhi Purusha tam aham Bhajami!!!!!!

 

From Brham samhita

 

Govinda is the primeval Lord to whom I pray!!!! A Pray by Lord Brahma the first Guru

 

ALL Glories to

 

Sirla Prabhupada (Dear most servant of the servant....of Lord Hari)

 

Hari Bol!!!

[Yogkriya]

Umm...

Govindam Adim Purusham..

But Shiva is the Adi Deva! And the Maha Deva!

If Brahma says that to Hari he also prays to Shiva as the top most deity in the universe to be worshipped. Why don't you quote that too? Brahma worshipped Shiva too! Quote that too! Krishna recognizes Shiva as The God to be worshipped and that if one gets the lotus feet of Mahadev, there is nothing that he needs anymore in all the universes.

Besides, why would you recognize Brahma Samhita as authentic if you you don't recognize samhitas like Shiv Samhita for example? Why such partiality?

Why is Prabhupada the dearmost servant of Hari? What happened to other devotees all through the bhakti kaal? What happened to Mira Bai, Goswami Tulsidas, Kabir, Tukaram and teh list of "enlightened saints" goes on..! Let's accept some non-bengalis too! ;-) There have been saints outside bengal too.

 

 

 

darkness and Jyoti means light. And you still have not Given proof of the Authtification of all the verses you have pasted here!!!!

 

Govindam Adhi Purusha tam aham Bhajami!!!!!!

 

From Brham samhita

 

Govinda is the primeval Lord to whom I pray!!!! A Pray by Lord Brahma the first Guru

 

ALL Glories to

 

Sirla Prabhupada (Dear most servant of the servant....of Lord Hari)

 

Hari Bol!!!

[Yogkriya]

Dear devotee,

 

Each time a question is address that is not answerable, you get offended and resort to escape tactics as - "blasphemy", "Vaishnava Aparadha" etc..

 

Sampradaism is good since it conveys a certain line philosophy completely through a disciplic succession, but then you have to rise above it to remove the barriers that sampradayas keep you from accepting or recognizing any other schools of thoughts. This is a main reason of inter-sampradayik quarrels that creat nothing but a breeding ground for "aparadhas" / offenses to and for all.

 

Again, it is good to glorify your Guru, sampradaya, but when you get too fanatic about it, you may start putting down others. In order to be more defensive about your own line of philosophy you may end up becoming more and more offensive to others.

 

Now answers and comments to your message:

 

What I mean by stories is that most of this is about telling and listening to stories and reading out books that are followed fanatically. Stories in line with your thought are hailed with much fanfare, but the ones that are not, are put down, ignored.

 

Progress in yoga is based on practical 'anubhuti'. And if you haven't got any results from your sadhna, then you can't preach, at least in verious forms of yoga / tantra and other Vedic sadhnas because your knowledge is incomplete. Did Arjuna read and translate a lot of books or did book distribution? umm.. I believe the Vedic sadhnas in those days were different from now. And if we don't follow Vedic ways of Sadhnas, then how Vedic are we... is the question. One may read, but unless he gets an experience and anubhuti from his practice, the progress is not fully ripe. Simply being emotional is not enough to progress spiritually. Too much emotions can lead to heart attacks and kidney failures. I can be all emotional and jump out the window, but Hari is not going to appear before me.

 

If you are to be considered a successful businessman, the sign is your business should run well and reap benefits, goodwill and expand. But if I simply read ten volumes of books on macro economics and business and claim that I know all about business and am indeed a successful businessman, then that is not a very valid statement. What do you think?

 

If you really surrender yourself to your Guru (as you've stated), then this is very commendable. Everything starts with the SadGuru (if he really is one), as he is the representative of the Lord. You haven't seen the Lord, but have seen the Guru.

 

As far as the Bona-Fide disciplic succession is concerned, then I appreciate the Gaudiya lineage. But when you say Lord Krishna-Lord Chaitanya etc. and say that it is an unbroken line - Brahma-Madhava-Chaitanya Sampradaya, then it raises eyebrows! You mentioned Krishna- then Chaitanya. Officially it comes from Brahma!! Is this lineage unbroken? Hardly. It is broken from Madhavacharya. If Madhavacharya is considered the Senior Guru in the succession, senior than Sri Chaitanya, but the Gaudiyas do not agree with Madhava's philosophy at many points and do not accept it, then the lineage IS broken! The lineage is essentially 500 years old Chaitanya Gaudiya Sampradaya. This philosophy is further altered and modified, even more after Jiva Goswami...

During this course several of the origianl Vedic sadhnas philosophies are altered too.

And new scriptures written or purported to match the new way of thinking. It is further divided into different smaller sects and maths who base themselves on the same philosophy, but many political and policy differences. The movement goes down are Chaitanya, but again gain momentum with efforts of BhaktiVinod Thakur a former deputy megistrate with the then British Government. Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati's disciples further establish their own maths and are still divided on various issues within themselves. As far as I know, Iskcon does not warmly interacts with the Gaudiyas either. And within Iskcon, there are much differences with using Hindu catch words to attract Hindu population funds in countries. There are people for and against this in Iskcon.

So the disciplic succession you are talking about is there, but original philosophies are altered and adulterated.

On example from the Bhagwatam: Sorry I can't remember that exact place I read this, but your scholars can recognize this. The Lord says that he does not appear to the bhakta in the mode of sheer emotions, not in the state of sleep, being awake, half sleep, unconscious etc.. That he is revealed only in the state of a deep trance. This is clearly stated in the Bhagwatam and I read the Prabhupada translated version. BUT, then I further read his purport which sums up that it is vital to eat Prasadam offered to God and chant and sing and this is it!

Now we know that the trance talked about originally is the state of Nirvikalpa Samadhi! ... no comments.

 

Most of the commentaries do not match however, original Vedic ways of 'sadhnas' and philosophy. But it is in line with bhakti tradition.

 

Finally, not to go into intricate details of where things go different, I will say that simple hearted earnest bhakti is fair. BUT this does not give you an authority to put everyone else down.

You talk about Yog (Yoga). This means union. Union of the self with Super consciousness. You cannot know Superconsciousness merely by playing bells and symbals and shouting out loud, but there is a chance to know the self. Unless you know one of the two, where is the possibility of Yoga?

It is a very high and not easy process. But Sri Chaitanya gave a simple process of chanting the Hare Krishna (Krsna) Mantra for people who are not capable of undergoing Vedic way of sadhnas that are much higher in order. This is the same Chaitanya (born Visvambhar Mishra) who was initiated into Gopal Mantra by advait Guru and later initiated into sanyas by another advaita Guru.

This simple process of singing dancing and chanting brings devotional joy, love and compassion.

There are no other moods that it is supposed to bring.

And these moods are reflected towards the Lord Hari as well as other devotees AND non-devotees. Remember most devotees preaching and reading out to others that the Lord is in the heart of every living being and a devotee sees them alike! But when it comes down to fighting, defending "my sampradaya, my Guru, my organization etc" this mood is lost! Completely. We start resorting to "Blasphemy" etc words. We need extreme words to pin down our so called 'oponent' who is no longer another jiva created and sustained by Shri Hari and we get down to offending the Lord who also resides in his heart!

 

A former friend (JMD) of mine who is a direct American disciple of Srila Prabhupada started putting me down saying "Hindu-Shmindu hodge podge" I tried to explain him, but useless. He knew i worship Lord Shiva!! And he was childish enough to say that Lord Shiva is "NOT GOD" and this is "nonsense" and that if I did not accept everything that comes from Iskcon and Prabhupada only and bow down to all devotees, then I will be blasphemied and get very bad reaction etc.

I do not accept this kind of radical behavior and extremism! This sounds no better than a muslim "Fatwa" blasphemi !

 

And yes you are right, Shiva (or Hari) can really be understood by his own mercy only! And the mercy of Shri Guru! I indeed pray to the Lord of all Lords to give me such mercy. And wish he does the same for you, if you are earnest.

 

Om Namah Shivaya!!

 

 

 

 

What do you mean by stories??? are you referring to Bhagwans pastimes or lila as some fairytales???? Then I would regard that as a Blasphemy.

 

Yes I may sound childish in comparison to your Greatness in knowladge of the diffrerent Vedas. So I will not argue with Such GREAT PERSONS as yourselves who are very knowladgable in the different Vedas but to say that with my limited intelligence I surrender my self to the GURU who comes in the Bonafide Displic succession with direct link to the supreme Lord Hari, Lord Krsna, Lord Chaitanya.

 

 

That guru who belongs to the Gaudiya Linage. That Guru who undertook so much hardship in his old age experiancing 2 heart attacks, one who and came to America with almost nothing but on the strength of his Gurudev's orders and total faith in Lord Krsna to teach the world about the glories of Mahaprabhu and Lord Krsna. To me his words weigh a great deal more than any dry "intelligent" phlosophical speculations.

 

As I have said before Yes I may have limited intelligence compared to you, so let me not waste it in trying to argue with such Knowladgable persons as yourselves and I will follow the knowladge that The Dear Most Servant of Lord Krsna has given me.

 

So all I can say is Yes Very Good Worship Lord Shiva that he may give you even more intelligence to understand Him even better.

 

Jay Shri Krsna

 

All Glories to the Vaishnav servants of the servants of the Lord

 

JAy Sirla Prabhupada

[atanu]

 

-----not Given proof of the Authtification of all the verses you have pasted here!!!!

 

Govindam Adhi Purusha tam aham Bhajami!!!!!!

 

From Brham samhita

 

Hari Bol!!!

 

Sorry, I cannot authenticate an upanishad.

 

Brahma Samhita is not an Upanishad. Then Purusha has origin in Self -- Atma--- though they are not two beings. It is ONE ATMA who is ONE PURUSHA.

[atanu]

 

From Brham samhita

 

Govinda is the primeval Lord to whom I pray!!!! A Pray by Lord Brahma the first Guru

 

ALL Glories to

 

Sirla Prabhupada (Dear most servant of the servant....of Lord Hari)

 

Hari Bol!!!

 

 

Consider these Vedic verses also please.

 

Sama Veda XIX Soma Pavamana

1. Father of holy hymns, Soma flows onward, the father of the earth, father of heaven.Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the father who begat Indra and Vishnu.

 

Param Atma has no progenitor. I am sorry.

 

 

 

 

 

[sumedh]

Haribol

 

 

Rudram and RV verses are translated as per your wish and the translations are wrong since the following verses already clarify who is in the Hridaya of all:

 

From Yajur Veda

Namo hridayyaya cha niveshpya ya cha

Salutations to Him who is in hridayyaya and in the grace.

 

Namo vah kirikebhyo devanam hrudayou bhyo

Salutations to you who showers grace and who dwell in the hearts of the Gods.

 

 

 

Rudra is the Hridaya and He resides there like lion.

 

 

 

The tenth anuvaka "Stuhi shrutam garta sadam yuvanam mrugannabhima mupahat numugram, mruda jaritre rudra satvano anyante asmanniva pantu senaha": the previous verses (as also subsequent verses) address Rudra, and thus here the speaker asks Rudra to praise one who is "seated in the heart", "terrible like a lion" etc. Then Nrsimha-tapani upanishad clarifies that "ugram" above refers to Lord Nrsimha.

 

 

 

Sama Veda XIX Soma Pavamana

 

1. Father of holy hymns, Soma flows onward, the father of the earth, father of heaven.Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the father who begat Indra and Vishnu.

Param Atma has no progenitor. I am sorry.

 

 

 

You should be sorry for presenting an incorrect translation by which you will have us believe that Vishnu is created by Soma contradicting quotations you provided from Mahanarayana upanishad, Nrismha tapani and host of other srutis (in addition to contradicting yourself). Shatapata Brahmana and other srutis say that yajna is also referred to as Vishnu, and so the above verse is actually referring to yajna. The Shatpatha Brahmana, Mahopanishad and host of other srutis talk about the birth of Rudra from the antaryami of Brahma i.e. Lord Narayana.

 

 

Then Rg-Veda 7.40.5:

 

"asya devasya mILhuSo vayA viSNoreSasya prabhRthe havirbhiH | vide hi rudro rudriyaM mahitvaM yAsiSTaM vartirashvinAvirAvat"

With offerings I propitiate the branches of this swift-moving God, the bounteous Visnu. Hence Rudra gained his Rudra-strength: O Asvins, ye sought the house that hath celestial viands.

 

makes it clear that Rudra attains his powers from Lord Vishnu.

[Yogkriya]

Since when did you start quoting Rig Veda? Or commenting on Sama Veda?

Prabhupada has restricted you from reading any other literature that does not bear his purport and translation.

You do not find any literature authentic unless Prabhupada translated.

So you are defying your own Parampara Guru by quoting any other literature / scripture that is not SP translated! lol Stick to one standard!

 

 

Haribol

 

 

The tenth anuvaka "Stuhi shrutam garta sadam yuvanam mrugannabhima mupahat numugram, mruda jaritre rudra satvano anyante asmanniva pantu senaha": the previous verses (as also subsequent verses) address Rudra, and thus here the speaker asks Rudra to praise one who is "seated in the heart", "terrible like a lion" etc. Then Nrsimha-tapani upanishad clarifies that "ugram" above refers to Lord Nrsimha.

 

 

 

You should be sorry for presenting an incorrect translation by which you will have us believe that Vishnu is created by Soma contradicting quotations you provided from Mahanarayana upanishad, Nrismha tapani and host of other srutis (in addition to contradicting yourself). Shatapata Brahmana and other srutis say that yajna is also referred to as Vishnu, and so the above verse is actually referring to yajna. The Shatpatha Brahmana, Mahopanishad and host of other srutis talk about the birth of Rudra from the antaryami of Brahma i.e. Lord Narayana.

 

 

Then Rg-Veda 7.40.5:

 

"asya devasya mILhuSo vayA viSNoreSasya prabhRthe havirbhiH | vide hi rudro rudriyaM mahitvaM yAsiSTaM vartirashvinAvirAvat"

With offerings I propitiate the branches of this swift-moving God, the bounteous Visnu. Hence Rudra gained his Rudra-strength: O Asvins, ye sought the house that hath celestial viands.

 

makes it clear that Rudra attains his powers from Lord Vishnu.