love, dating and arranged marriages

[Haridham]

Hare krsna everyone. This is Haridham

 

I am just curious, what do the vedas state about love marriages and dating in comparison to arranged marriages.

 

From what I understand is that arranged marriage is a recent thing, meaning only a few thousand years old.

 

We always hear of people falling in love in the vedas and such.

 

So whats the exact story.

 

Harekrsna

Haridham

[yasodanandana]

the system is that marriage is arranged by pure brahmins and astrologers .. a young boy and a young girl , if they do it by ourselves, will meet considering only sexual attraction, making the marriage a gamble or (99.999 %) a failure

 

the system was extremely well implemented in vedic and ancient times, but now it is very difficult to find competent, pure and devotee people who can do these arrangements well... in the experience of the movement in italy, the marriages arranged by temple authorities are 99.99999% a big and sad failure.. the good couples are usually the ones who were married or fiancee before joining the movement

 

IMHO.. there's no need (or not much need) at this stage of the diffusion of the krsna consciousness in the world, to recommend and introduce so heavy changes in the behaviour of the practitioneers or sympathizers..

 

let us stick and develope well on the basics.. HARE KRISHNA and regulative p.

 

(because if we start to implement the vedic marriage, we have also to speak of very early age, especially for the bride, possibility to marry an adolescent girl to an old man, virginity (in the superstrict vedic sense), pregnancy at 11-12-13 yrs, polygamy and so on...... very difficult!!)

[Haridham]

are you sure about all of this.

 

It sounds crazy to me.

 

I mean like i said i have heard that people fell in love during vedic times.

 

At 11 or 12 and such is quite freaky and woudnt do that to my daughter.

 

ANyways

Haridham

[Haridham]

and i mean even today when even arranged marriages are sorted out the bride and groom are doing it because of sexual attraction and not neccerily because of the vedic custom.

 

I mean if you ask them why are they getting married or what is the purpose of marriage they dont know.

 

I mean they think its a free ticket to sex.

 

So now its all messed up

[Guest guest]

You would understand this arranged marriage if you are in a typical Indian situation. Even now in India other than metropolitan cities the percentage of arranged marraiges are very high (95%) in cities it could be 90%. The marriages are performed by pundits who studied vedas in sanskrit in respective oriental schools. Irrespective of their percentage of devotion to Lord, marriages are still performed only in traditional way following most of the vedic rituals. Of course the age for getting married has considerably changed and girls are married only after they cross 18 and men mostly only after 22 and between 25 to 30 and some go even beyond dependig on their family conditions. IN vedic times and even upto 19th century, girls were married much before they attain puberty and mostly matched with their age groups only, but their sexual union will take place only after the boy crosses 16 or 18 and when the girl is physically prepared. Its a wrong assumption that all young girls were married to older men. In few very poverty ridden families, where the parents have huge debts out of their debts, they were instances of compulsion to get their daughters married to a rich middle aged man who lost his wife or as a second wife etc etc and this is not common only in India in those times.

Primarily girls were not allowed to see men even if some visitors come to family for the reason I beleive good number of men are basically pigs and some of them dont control letching at other men's wife also.

But this does not mean that women were not allowed to develop themselves. There are many good number of women scholars right from ancient times. Most of the Guru's pathnis (in other words Rishi pathni's) are scholars.

Coming to the success of marriages especially when arranged, it is still high in India when compared to any other country. Even if the couples get into misunderstandings the parents interfere and try to solve the problem amicably. But if the parents themslves create problem then nowadays, the couples leave the parents and try to live separately to maintain a decent relationship on either side. Otherwise many families are still joint family and they still follow the customs and traditions in both brahmins and non-brahmins families.

[Guest guest]

And also India has the highest number of Non divorced Couples

[Guest guest]

I dont know if you have comment it in a sarcastic way or its just a sentence mentioning that India has large number of non-divorced couples.

Well. Marriage and living together basically involves giving up the self ego and adjust to each other irrespective of the smooth and hard situations two people face in their life time. Man and women are not basically mentally compatible most of the time and the emotions and its percentages vary largely. While it is always easy to break a relationship when a confrontation comes for little things or for big things, working out the confrontation and finding the solution giving up the self ego is more valuable than just breaking the relationship. Indians both men and women have large amount of tolerance and the value of relationship is more there than in US (I can talk about US since I live here for few years). No couple are 100% compatible with each other even in highly successful marriages whether they are westerners or Indians. But in US I find that cheating is more, since their exposure to sex is more out of which more marriages break. I found very hard to digest the fact that women dont mind leaving their man if he faces financial crisis, while in India howmuch ever confrontation arise out of financial crisis, women dont leave their man, rather they work and support the family, sometimes even support the whole husband's family during crisis, which the husband compensates by helping her family when they face a crisis. This is very common in India in many families. Morality is high there since religion is part and parcel of everyday life there and people have a fear of getting punished by God for cheating which has become alsmost like a tradition. Another reason for less percentage of divorce is they value the life of children and their future. So even if the husband and wife fight heavily, for children sake they give up their ego and start focussing on the family building. Once the young age is gone, a sort of understanding comes among them, out of which they never pay attention for the angry times and fight on one side and love on other side. Basically, the family values among Indians are very high and this is the reason the divorce rate is less. Westerners may say that they are tolerating each other, and its of no use, but marriage and relationship by itself is tolerance giving up the ego and thats the success of marriage. There is nothing to make fun of.

[Guest guest]

Moreover, 99 percent of Indian women dont drink and smoke (of any kind) and in fact they are considered non women habits. The one who smoke and drinks are basically in show business industries and in financially well to do circles. These habits are considered immoral for women there unlike I see in US.

[Haridham]

Well you are right, and the above mentioned points i tend to kinda agree with but...a lot of women i have noticed and a lot reasons why arranged marriages do last is because the women are full of fear of leaving their husbands because society and family will reject her.

 

I mean i know someone who was beaten by her husband who was a drunk but didnt want to take a divorce because she was told it was her fault and such.

 

Even in many places in India the reason arranged marriages work is because of the fear factor involved.

 

I say that from experiance.

 

Also I asked a question regarding the fact that in many instances there are love marriage arrangement in the vedas. What do the vedas state about love marriages.

 

I know in the west the divorce rate is high but so are many places in india. Even the poor regions.

 

And ofcourse even when a marriage is arranged now adays its soley because of sex factor and to get the parents off the kids backs.

 

Again most of these pepple, weather in india or north america dont know why they are getting married or whats the purpose of their marriage is.

 

In the Srimad Bagavatam it is stated( i am paraphrasing) that one should not become a husband, wife, teacher, guru, father, mother or worshipable demigod unless he understands and can liberate his dependants

 

Please reply.

 

hare krsna

Haridham

[Guest guest]

I am against beating the wife and in very rare events wife beating the husbands. Both are basically not acceptable as there is no mutual respect. Having spent about 30 years in India, I have personally seen that women getting beaten up by drunkard husbands especially among the low class slum people, and inspite of that, she still loves him which is amazing and it is not just out of fear of society or for the sake of food and shelter. While fear factor is certainly there for the society, many women there are much better than women here including some of the Indian girls born and brought up in US.

For your question of "many people dont know why they get married"..see we cannot expect everyone in this world to have spiritual elevation to the extent of realising the purpose of birth and get elevated. Honestly the gradation in attaining spirituality varies even in the most religious society. While more than 95% of the people have beliefs in God in India, the amount of their belief and their devotion towards Supreme in performing the rituals vary drastically. Again women folks are more sincere in this matter there than men in following the traditions, which is another reason that hinduism is still having a strong value there after so much of invasions by christians and muslims. COming to family values, irrespective of religion and community, the values and the behavioural aspects are almost the same among all men and women and they dont cheat primarily and I would call this as Indian culture rather than calling it as hindu culture. Although the languages and tradition vary among states, there is something common among all the Indians which is the inborn culture or morals. Still an individual who has really realised the Supreme should not discriminate those people just because they are not his equal in spirituality, and if he discriminate them, that means he has not elevated himself actually, but only think and talk about elevation with ego in hidden corner of his mind without his knowledge.

For your question on love marriages and dating, I have not read vedas in detail and my knowledge is based on only listening to my father and other sanskrit scholars when they talk as I am fortunate to be born in a brahmin family with strong traditional values. From the puranas, it is apparent that

[Haridham]

I think what your saying is very admirable. Yes vedic culture is awseme, however many unscrupulas men are taking advantage of them. You are right when you say that girls born here and in india are vastly different. I frankly think that anyone born in India is very fortunate.

 

 

I am not trying to say that I am more elevated then anyone. Although I think I might have a massive ego because I think I more fortunate then most people.

 

The reason I talked about love and dating is that in many instances in the mahabarat and other scriptures it talks about people falling in love with each other etc, etc. So thats what I am talking about.

 

ALso I think that if two people have krsna in the centre and love each other, be it may be material they should get married and keep krsna in the centre.

 

If two devotees love each other and keep krsna and guru shastra sadhu in the centre it should be ok.

 

Yes I know even amongst devotees there is divorce but this is Kali yuga.

[bhavini]

"Still an individual who has really realised the Supreme should not discriminate those people just because they are not his equal in spirituality, and if he discriminate them, that means he has not elevated himself actually, but only think and talk about elevation with ego in hidden corner of his mind without his knowledge."

 

 

 

I don't discriminate against atheists or less spiritual people but would you lot feel more comfortable with someone on the same level spiritually as yourself when it comes to marriage? I don't mean to look down on those different to yourself but for the sake of compatibility and don't we owe it to ourselves to find some who shares the same beliefs as us and who loves God as much as us. Hope I've explained myself clearly.

 

I just wanna know if I'm wrong to think like this because if I am to get married then I want it to be the right decision because I don't believe in divorce.

 

[Guest guest]

I did not mean about mismatching of mental compatibilty and selecting your partner. I meant discrimination in connnection with Haridam's sentence on "many people dont know what for they are marrying". I meant to say that we cannot expect everyone to have higher level of spiritual elevation for them to realise what for they should marry and how should they live. In that case if everyone lives at the same spiritual level, this will not be kali yuga, it will be like Dharma yuga or like heaven. thats what I meant. Everyone has their own level of spiritual thinking. A 10 year old may have a level, a 50 year old may be differnt. Still not all 50 year old are spiritually elevated and not all 10 year old are under spiritual. There are many old people who behaves immatured. Spirituality is entirely dependent on individual's choice and experience. So one should not discriminate anyone based on their level of understanding the Supreme and look down upon anyone. I did not mean this in connection with marriage. Obviously its difficult to marry someone who does not beleive and normally howmuh ever we may keep quiet out of humility, they will ridicule us by taking advantage of us. I faced this problem with some friends who does not beleive in God Himself just because they happen to study medicine thinking that they themselves are God. Later in course of time, when they observed my humble nature, and strong faith in Supreme they started feeling guilty for illtreating me and now they are fine. But in marriage one cannot take this risk as two people have to live together from day one. I can explain this with myself as an example. I being unmarried would not go in for a girl who does not beleive in God. It does not matter,whether she beleives in Lakshmi or Krisna or Shiva or Parvathi or any deity, but there should be some faith in atleast one form of the Supreme and only then I will be comfortable. But at the same time, I will not force her that she has to necessarily read Gita and accept only Krishna as the main God and if I do that, then Krishna Himself will not forgive me and it will also show that I have not understood Him properly since He is there in all Deities. Its the faith that counts for spirituality and development and as long as one has the faith, then automatically that individual will have moral fear and have their own regulations.

The love marriages of the vedic period cannot be compared to the present day love marriages. In those days, Rama and Sita had love marriage, but they were not dating and having sex before marriage like most of the people i see in US. In India, even in love marriages, the boy and girl go together for outing before marriage but the chances they have sex with each other is only in very very small percentage where the guy mostly try to use the girl by giving emotional threat that he would leave her. Mostly, the girls they dont permit the guy and they maintain their self respect. This is one of the reason for the success of marriages there. Once yo have the taste of sex before marriage and break with the relationship and go for another person, sex becomes like having food in restaurant and thats the main reason people dont respect each other giving values to human relationship. In vedic period to my knowledge from purnaas and stories of the ancient period, premarital sex was not allowed even if it was love marriage. In my opinion too, love is something to do with the mind and should not originate from body. Attraction is the first point, but dont give way to lust and body desires to take over. Rather, understanding the person develops into love and this love will never break howmuch ever they confront each other.

there are many small stories of confrontation between Radhe and Krishna, where radhe always accuses krisna and be waiting to fight with Him for small small reasons. But those were not fights, and Krishna knows that she does it out of love. Their love is beyond physical attraction. In prenet day also it is quite possible for two people to have mental attraction which would sustain their relationship and this attraction comes only by understanding and not by start having sex within one month of time they started dating each other. One who does not control himself/herself before marriage, they loose their respect in the mind of the other. Where there is real love in mind, the individual will not compel the other person for sex, but would rather wait for the right time. The person who says that he or she would leave because he or she is not getting enough sex, then certainly there is no love in that relationship. This the essence mentioned in our puranic stories.

[Guest guest]

Thanks that's cleared a few things up but I still have a few questions. I just wanna know your opinions on what I should do. I'm so confused. I've kinda accepted the fact that I will either have to remain unmarried or just get married to guy who either smokes, drinks, eats meat etc. I was born into a family that did all of this and when I decided to change they thought it was abnormal and basically all the indians around where I live are all like that. I've talked to my parents about this and they said you're gonna have to accept the fact that you're gonna have to cook meat for your future husband and keep alcohol in the house etc. Should I have to put up with this for my husband even though it's against what I believe and against the wishes of the Supreme Lord. I'd just be back to square one if I did all that and my priority in this life is to make a huge step towards Krishna. I can't just let it go like other people say.

What is someone in my position supposed to do?

Are there others who feel the same as me cos at the moment I feel like the only one.

[Guest guest]

There is no need for you to accept someone who eats meat, smokes and drink alcohol. You can find someone of your nature and its not a problem. I can give you suggestions and since this forum is not meant for personal discussions If you dont mind you may write to my email address mazdaa_25@

I can certainly help you out in this and you can trust me as a friend since I am also from India and an ardent devotee of Shree Krishna.

[Haridham]

You dont need to be confused. There are many young men out there who dont smoke, drink etc etc etc. Just depend on krsna and search for someone your own nature. You are right, its better to not get married then to marry someone with qualities you dont agree with.

 

There are many boys in the hare krsna movement who dont somke drink etc etc. They are very wonderful and krsna gives them good qualities of proper husband.

 

Me for instance, I married someone who wasnt in iskcon but i told her from the beggining what my lifestyle was. She said until I met you i met most men who smoked, drunk etc etc etc.

 

She said she didnt even know much about krsna consciousness but she loves me because we have krsna in the centre.

[Haridham]

Guest I agree with you about not everyone understanding the purpose of marriage etc.

 

I think we are in a mutual understanding.

 

 

Correct me if I am wrong

 

hare krsna

[Myra]

LETTER FROM GOD ABOUT WOMEN :

 

When I created the heavens and the earth, I spoke them into being.

 

When I created man, I formed him and breathed life into his nostrils. But you, woman, I fashioned after I breathed the breath of life into man because your nostrils are too delicate.

 

I allowed a deep sleep to come over him so I could patiently and perfectly fashion you. Man was put to sleep so that he could not interfere with the creativity.

 

From one bone, I fashioned you. I chose the bone that protects man’s life.

 

I chose the rib, which protects his heart and lungs and supports him, as you are meant to do. Around this one bone, I shaped you.......

 

I modeled you. I created you perfectly and beautifully. Your characteristics are as the rib, strong yet delicate and fragile.

 

You provide protection for the most delicate organ in man, his heart. His heart is the center of his being; his lungs hold the breath of life. The ribcage will allow itself to be broken before it will allow damage to the heart.

 

Support man as the rib cage supports the body.

 

You were not taken from his feet, to be under him, nor were you taken from his head, to above him. You were taken from his side, to stand beside him and be held close to his side.

 

You are my perfect angel.....You are my beautiful little girl.

 

You have grown to be a splendid woman of excellence, and my eyes fill when I see the virtues in your heart.

 

Your eyes......don’t change them. Your lips, how lovely when they part in prayer.

 

Your nose, so perfect in form. Your hands so gentle to touch.

 

I’ve caressed your face in your deepest sleep.

 

I’ve held your heart close to mine.

 

Of all that lives and breathes, you are most like me.

 

Adam walked with me in the cool of the day, yet he was lonely. He could not see me or touch me. He could only feel me.

 

So everything I wanted Adam to share and experience with me, I fashioned in you; my holiness, my strength, my purity, my love, my protection and support.

 

You are special because you are an extension of me. Man represents my image, woman my emotions. Together, you represent the totality of God.

 

So man......treat woman well.Love her, respect her,for she is fragile. In hurting her, you hurt me. What you do to her, you do to me. In crushing her, you only damage your own heart, the heart of your Father, and the heart of her Father.

 

Woman, support man. In humility, show him the power of emotion I have given you. In gentle quietness, show our strength. In love, show him that you are the rib that protects his inner self.

 

Did you not know that WOMAN is special in God’s eyes?

 

HAVE A GOOD DAY!

[Guest guest]

is possible to express the same concepts without speculate on god ?

[Myra]

 

 

This writing was shared to me by one of my friends and since the thoughts are nice, this ought to be shared to others too. I just copied the whole thing, to make the writings intact.

 

From a presentation Literature point of view, I think the writer just want to make his/her reader feel the so called "intimacy" of the character(s) to the readers. It is just a technique so that the story will be entertaining and a memoir.

 

mmmmmm yeah, that's what I understand...

 

[bhavini]

"I think you I can certainly help you out in this and you can trust me as a friend since I am also from India and an ardent devotee of Shree Krishna."

 

I'm sorry but I think you've misunderstood me. I live in England actually. In Leicester where I live there are many indians.

Also what did you mean by suggestions? Btw I'm only 19 and I'm just thinking about my future.

[Guest guest]

If you are just 19, then why you are in hurry of searching someone and get worried if you would find someone who worship Krishna or not. Yo have pleanty of time. Keep praying to Krishna and He will send you the right person. I have not misunderstood. I could understand from your sentences that you must be either in some land other than India. I would suggest not to compromise on your expectations especially on vegetarianism and drinking and smoking. Keep going to temples regularly which ever is accecible nearer to you. You may come across someone who is good. Howmuch every someone may suggest, this is something predestined in my opinion and hence the only suggestion is keep praying to Krishna that He should give you some one whho is your right match. Sincere prayers are always answered if you have the purity of mind.

[Haridham]

Go to the hare krsna temple in England.

 

Bhaktivedanta Manor. Dont expect the regular crowd to be like the devotee crowd.

 

Marry a devotee and it will be ok.

 

Hare krsna

Haridham

[Myra]

This is kinda long but is worth reading. Sorry, I’ve been a frustrated writer ever since /images/graemlins/smile.gif, it really shows wherever I wrote a letter or a mere report..

 

Hare Krishna!

 

A more important question is - how do you catch the RIGHT one? Simple: You take only the bus that's headed the RIGHT DIRECTION.

 

First we must allow our Krishna to do the picking. And second, the decision for a mate must be made on a spiritual and intellectual basis before it's made on an emotional one.

 

What about love? Well..I'll tell you why. "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? (Jer 17:9). The heart is willful and is driven by its own agenda. It does not consider things rationally and intelligently - it just loves to love!

 

Therefore you have to point it in the right directions: "Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life" (Proverbs 4:23). Whenever you meet a man, you need to get clearance from God, check out his attributes, and then allow your heart to engage.

 

I would suggest you go out for a date. BUT REMEMBER.... Dating exists not for mating; it exists for collecting data. I believe that the scripture's design would be friendship, courtship and then marriage.

 

So what are the facts you need to gather? Check out of the following. I have found a good book that I summarize for you.

 

1. Check out the fabric. Is the person mate material? Does this man have an intimate relationship with Krishna? Does he care what God thinks about his behavior? Is he accountable to God as well as another co-laborer in the faith?

 

Accountability is an important factor. It is imperative to maintaining a committed relationship. Is this man a member of the same family or community of God?

 

Scripture is clear on this (sorry if I took verses from the bible, I am not well versed with Geeta, but I am starting /images/graemlins/smile.gif ): "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers.

For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?" (2 Cor 6:14).

 

You need to have common interest and values and agree on the essentials of living day to day. You have a similar spiritual walk.

 

Remember, women fall in love and get married. Men decide to get married and then look for a wife. Note the difference in order. So if a guy says he's not looking for anything serious, take his words seriously. If he's not going your direction, get off the bus & wait for the right one.

 

2. Does this man want you? Is he pursuing you? The man who is right for you will pursue you and God's hand in the relationship will be clear. No guessing, no fleeces, no dead ends. Scripture says: "He who finds a wife finds what is good and receives favor from the Lord" (Prov 18:22).

 

Note - who finds whom? THE MAN FINDS THE WIFE. From the beginning of time, God has transported men & women across the world in order to put them together. At the RIGHT TIME, He will bring that man on the scene and he will find you.

 

Please take note, the right man at the wrong time can be just as awful as the wrong man at any time. So trust God's timing in this. He is the ultimate matchmaker. You're still young, you have so much time to wait for God's gift.

first. And they should lead the relationship.

 

3. The man in your life should not desire to move into your house, only into your heart. A man who prepares for your future has made his intentions clear. A man who is husband material has the means to take care of a wife. He is a responsible human being who understands he needs to have something to offer. In short, a man should have the means to be a suitable lover for you.

 

4. Check out his relationship with his mother. How does he treat her? This is your preview of how he will treat you. There are lots of men who, because of a negative relationship with their mothers, really don't like women, yet say they do. Unresolved issues between mother and son continue between husband and wife.

 

5. Remember that a man's family reveals the cloth from which he's cut. Take note and decide whether you want your future with the man in your life to look like

his present family situation.

 

6. Does this man have a vision for his life? Is he running with. Is your guy guided by sense of destiny and purpose, or does he just allow life to happen around him?

 

A man who is not certain of his mission can be a most miserable person - and you'll be miserable too if you know where YOU want to go in life. A man who has vision is

not intimidated by a woman whose mission statement is clear. He will be your best ally, cheerleader and assistant because he wants you both to make it! A man who cannot be supportive of your achievements because he is floundering in a sea of uncertainty over his own life is not a healthy partner to have and to hold forever. Creating dependencies or feelings of obligation is not the way to get the best out of your man. Somewhere along the way, he will resent you and flee from the smothering burden of obligation he associates you with. You want a man who is firmly anchored in his identity with Krishna.

 

Remember, we are looking for a man who will be a guru and leader of his home. His first instinct should be to want to cover you, redeem you, and provide for you. Your job is to decide if this is the man God has ordained for you to complement.

 

This is why knowing your purpose is so important. Make sure your hearts beat for mutual causes. If the man you meet makes you feel that you need to completely reinvent yourself, something is wrong. This is where I ask you to consider the relationship in terms of cost. Is this relationship expensive spiritually, emotional or physically? Does your longing for a mate make you willing to forfeit who you are in the process? Or does he see you as the gift that you are?

 

The man in your life should consider you a rare find, a priceless jewel-because of you he is getting ready to get blessed big-time! Any relationship that causes you to feel unworthy, unlovely, unacceptable, undesirable or that you have to work for love, is too expensive!

 

God has called the man to cover, protect and provide not only materially for a woman, but emotionally and spiritually as well. You should be richer in mind, body and spirit for your union with the man of your dreams. The man in your life should make rich deposits into your heart and spirit, not withdrawals.

 

A man's relationship with God is crucial here. His love for himself will only be as strong as his love for God. This is not something that you can impart. You cannot be his savior or teacher. That is out of spiritual order.

 

In his rightful place as your personal Guru, he should be leading you to a richer relationship with Krshna. If he is causing you to compromise your faith and destabilize

your walk, if he is leading you into sexual sin or causing you to be distracted from your commitment to God, the relationship is too expensive. Offending the Lover of your soul, who promises you eternal love, is too high a fare to pay for a ride that has a limited run.

 

If you and your man can't soar in the Spirit, when the force of your love for another is tested by the pull or gravity of the world, your union will not be able to survive.

 

So you decide. How much is your life worth? How much is your love worth? Do you think you are mature enough to understand these things?

Throughout ages, men were willing to pay the cost for the hand that they desired. The truth of the matter is, everyone knows that anything worth having, costs for there is no such thing as free lunch.

 

Lastly, always pray to God and commit your heart for His safekeeping.

 

God Bless!

[bhavini]

Thank you Myra. I understand now what I should do. I'll just keep praying and leave the results to Krishna.