The Passion of Christ

[theist]

I have no idea. shiva has in the past tried to convince me that Christ is a myth by quoting the works of some atheistic "priest" scholar. Not anyone I care to listen to offering discourse on God.lol

 

You will find similar things being said on the fringes of the Hare Krsna movement. Prabhupada lives in the heart of the Hare Krsna movement. The heart is the goal.

 

We are all on the fringes of Krsna Consciousness and must be careful who we hear from. We must continually pray that the Lord in the heart(the Holy Spirit) guide us and not just anyone who has been around for awhile.

 

"Wise as serpents and harmless as doves", right?

[Myra]

 

I will surely remember your advice theist. God bless you! Don't worry, I know that the Holy Spirit enveloped my heart as I constantly praying His continuous guidance for me and my love ones.

 

And at this moment I will say a simple prayer for the Lord to speak from the silence of your heart, whoever you are...

 

God Bless always!

Myra

 

 

[theist]

Thanks Myra /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Sometimes at home I like to chant

 

Jaya Jaya Yoshua Jaya Jaya Krsna

[Guest guest]

 

 

gimme a break doc, first most christians believe

the Jesus is God,incarnate.

 

secondly i dont think they are evil, just ignorant,

emotional, and uneducated.

 

If you want to believe something to be true because

a lot of people say it is, go ahead, it doesn't bother me in the least, but don't put me in the same category as the

haters, i dont hate christians, or christianity, all things

that exist ,exist due to God , including Christianity,

the self realized soul sees God in all things,

but can also discriminate between God in truth and God's

work, All religions come from God as does everything

else,this doesn't mean all things are equal, worshiping

David Koresh as God's prophet or Muhammed or

Jim Jones or Joseph Smith or Jesus is not the same .

 

They teach different things, different quality of knowledge,even though all things come from God,all

people speak Gods will, the person who can discern

God's Absolute truth from gods inspiration through

others speaking their own thoughts , this person

is recieving God's mercy.

 

all things are God and come from God, all things are ONE,

but they are not the same.

 

Telling someone "Jesus saves,have faith in Jesus",

is no different then saying "have faith in Muhammed"

or whomever, it is all based on faith.

 

Vedic knowledge is based on experience,self realization,

knowing the truth through direct experience of the truth,

it is not the same as "faith", Faith is mental and emotional,self realization is based on direct communion

with God.

 

So you can have faith in the bible or the koran or

whatever, if you want Absolute truth , knowledge

of the highest reality, eternal absolute factual

knowledge as opposed to speculations and emotional

ideals(regardless of intent or beauty) , then

In fact the message of the Gita and Krishna are unique,

unadultered absolute truth ,free from human error,

human emotional tinkering, and human intent for

mind control, eternal absolute knowledge.

 

then again if you want to believe that "jesus saves",

maybe that is what God believs you need ,..

for now.

[Myra]

 

If "most christians believe the Jesus is God,incarnate" let them be, it's none of your busines. Don't let your brain believe that God will think same as you because of the reason that they don't have the beliefs like yours. God will not de-merit or merit these christians based on your faith but based on the measure of faith He has been given to them.

 

"secondly i dont think they are evil, just ignorant,

emotional, and uneducated."

 

--- And you think you are the opposite? Then, you are boastful, feeling superior, you are a false devotee...

 

Faith means believing the unbelievable. If you claim yourself as self-realized but you don't have the faith, pity on you, you have a false realization. And you can't force anyone to believe what you are believing right now...If you feel you are self realized well, good for you.

 

Yes, I have faith in the Bible and in the Gita for each teaches the right way to reach God. I think it's better if you will forward me those links and I will really give time to read them than wasting your effort attaching those nuissance links written by doomed/atheist souls. These irrelevant links you posted only bring inauspicious to my day and my work. Apologies.

 

God Bless you!

Myra

[Kulapavana]

it is a waste of time trying to wake up someone who only pretends to be asleep. most people will only hear what they WANT to hear.

Associate with devotees who have understanding of your position and can help you in moving up, closer to Krishna. while Shiva has some good points, his approach to this issue is obviously very narrow and not very helpful to people like yourself. we are all different and need to appreciate and tolerate our differences. do not be discouraged. there are all kinds of devotees of Krishna out there, just like there are all kinds of Christians.

[Guest guest]

If "most christians believe the Jesus is God,incarnate" let them be, it's none of your busines. Don't let your brain believe that God will think same as you because of the reason that they don't have the beliefs like yours. God will not de-merit or merit these christians based on your faith but based on the measure of faith He has been given to them.

well, i'm making it my business, sister.

 

Mahaprabhu a has asked us to wake up the ignorant

sleeping souls who are like alive while sleeping,

suffering in their ignorance,with relief at hand.

 

Most Christians see hinduism as evil and demonic,

and all those who do not "accept" jesus as going to

eternal damnation, they work feverishly to force their

mistaken concepts and unenlightened attitudes on the rest of the world, the world suffers for this.

 

People like the leaders of the christian right wing

including the Vatican,and the fundmentalists

go out of their way to destroy and harass and get Mahaprabhus movement shut down, put in jail,made illegal,

and more.

 

they lie,cheat, copmmit acts of vandalism,violence

and propaganda all to destroy Mahaprabhus mission,

and install their demonic fascist control

over the world in the name of Judeo-christian values.

 

what are those values ?

 

Fascism, intolerance,oppression, and narrow mindedness.

 

their style is that of the Nazis, Book burning,political

Machinations to take away the rights they enjoy from

those who reject their little bigoted world view,

disguised in the rhetoric of saintlyness and holiness.

 

if you think that most christians are like you, open minded

and charitable with others believing differently,

think again, the mass of Christians are in fact

working to destroy us, We are Satans helpers

in their eyes.

[Kulapavana]

Shivaji: what you wrote about Christians applies to a large segment of people who call themselves that, especially here in US. I'm just not sure that such "in your face" preaching is very useful for people like Myra who has both interest in our tradition and sentiment for the good side of Christianity. She sees Christianity more and more in light of the Veda and can separate the good and bad on her own. Even Vaishnavas have their controversies and it is not very useful to concentrate on the negatives. Beating down on other people's sentiments rarely produces good results in preaching.

[Myra]

 

Dear Kulapavana Prabhu,

 

Correct me if I am wrong but I guess you misunderstood me. Did you open the URL attachments of Shiva? I bet you didn't becasue if you did you will understand me. Those attachments were written by unknown atheists that I also considered as lost souls. Why should I give time reading them? When instead somthing that will help me strenghten my faith with Krishna and Jesus it will make my mind wonder of disbelief? They are waste of Shiva's time and my time if I will read and contemplate on it, I would rather read, hear, understand and appreciate God's past times and of Jesus.

 

Furthermore, I am not sure if Shiva has a good point, maybe he does but expressing it in a wrong way. Sorry to say, his feedback is very dogmatic and sectarian for me.

 

Shiva, hope you understand that not all Christians are ignorant and uneducated and not all Krishna followers are self realized and pure devotees. We are all doing our best to be worthy of Krishna's abode and be a friend of Jesus.

 

Forgive me if I may sound stubborn, just want to make a point here in behalf of those good, straight and pious Christians. Please don't judge us based on what other "false" christians have done, but through the eyes of Krishna in you.

 

Hare Krishna!

Myra

[trupti]

i think mel gibson is an idiot

[Kulapavana]

Dear Myra prabhu:

I do understand your position and I also reject statements of atheists regarding any religious tradition. But Shiva is correct, in my oppinion, in some of his criticism re Christianity, which in current and past practice is far more dogmatic and narrow minded than Vedic approach. In my previous post to you I was refering to the point that people usually simply CHOOSE the way they think based on their desires, not logic or arguments. Therefore it is often useless to merely argue about something when there is no good will to even look at the arguments in an objective way. Such "preaching" is therefore worthless.

[Kulapavana]

Synopsis: 'The Passion' set for Ash Wednesday release

Source: World Net Daily

Published: October 22, 2003 Author:

 

 

Mel Gibson has signed a deal with Newmarket to handle U.S. distribution for his controversial movie about the death of Jesus, now newly titled "The Passion of Christ."

 

Gibson's Icon Productions will retain all rights to "The Passion" while Newmarket will distribute the film for a cut of the gross, according to the entertainment magazine Variety.

 

Gibson sources told WorldNetDaily Icon is planning a release timed with Ash Wednesday, which next year falls on Feb. 25. Earlier reports had Gibson considering a release tied to Easter, which falls on April 11.

 

Icon is distributing "Passion" itself in the UK and Australia, where it already has its own distributing operations, according to Variety.

 

Gibson has so far invested $25 million on the film. With dialogue in Latin and Aramaic, the movie will be subtitled. Original plans called for no subtitles.

 

[Guest guest]

the refuge of those who seek to hide knowledge,whether it be book burning,or as in this case "shooting the messenger"

by attempting to disuade people from others opinions by

trying to discredit the person ,instead of the opinion,

is the hallmark of the fanatic.

 

The fanatic has no use for reason or discourse, his motive

is the installation of his view as absolute and all others

that refute that vision, as being the work of idiots or

people without qualification of any sort.

 

this is the sure road to self delusion and loss of

opportunity for the advancement of knowledge,

when the Nicean council installed the official

version of Christianity that had Christ portrayed

as God, all the other versions of Christianity

(there were many)were deemed heretical and outlawed.

 

Anyone who preached the heretic version was guilty

of heresy and in big trouble, the repository of ancient knowledge,the magnificent library at Alexandria

was burned to the ground ,all copies of christian writings

that were not in line with the nicean creed were searched out and destroyed, there were in fact hundreds of gospels,all of them outlawed as heresy.

 

The advanced culture of europe was thrown into the dark ages because of the burning of books all across the empire,

libraries were lost,knowledge of the ancient world,the greeks,the romans,etc, was lost,(later due to arab copies

a smalll amount became available),knowledge of advanced

mathematics was lost,the ancient art of medicine was lost,

architecture also, not until a thousand years later

would europe recover and once again build great

buildings.

 

Millions of people were slaughtered,the cathars,the jews,

the pagans, anyone who "posed a threat" to the

new theology of king/pope as god on earth,representing

Jesus, was an enemy of the state and a sure death

by torture was their fate.

 

All of this in the name of God,and Jesus.

 

This attitude of condemning those who disagree with

a religious philosophy ,as being worthless and

demonic has been the historical reality of

the last two milleniums.

 

If the ideals expressed by Jesus ,whatever they are,

are so enlightening and auspicious, why has his so

called following acting in such an unenlightened

un christ like way ?

 

You condemn those who try and bring knowledge of the past into the open, all in the name of perserving what ?

 

The glorious heritage of Christianity ?

 

Try these links for actual Christian preachers and scholars

and priests who have woken up to the truth.

 

knowledge is not the enemy

[theist]

 

The fanatic has no use for reason or discourse, his motive

is the installation of his view as absolute and all others

that refute that vision, as being the work of idiots or

people without qualification of any sort.

 

 

Yeah, so maybe you will get off Myra's back and stick to the topic a bit?

 

[Myra]

"Be wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove"

 

First of all I am thanking the Lord Jesus and theist for this very good quote which is full of wisdom. Thanks for sharing theist....

 

Shiva, this time your effort has been paid up. I visited the site you gave me. I read some links but SORRY!!! find them UNSCRAPULOUSLY INTERESTING. However, I checked the background of the authors though.

 

ACHARYA S.

 

Who is she? Well, upon doing some random research I found that she is not a scholar.

 

The Christ Conspiracy by Acharya S is published by "Adventures Unlimited," (1999) not exactly Harper and Row, or Yale University Press, but at least they know where to buy ink. Do you have this book Shiva? If you have and when you are done, you can buy the ones listed in the back on time travel and Atlantis. It is written by one who piles on the professed credentials like they would disappear if not referred to in a hurry: "...archaeologist, historian, mythologist, and linguist." Did they forget con artist, amateur logician, angry and irrational person? We didn't. Achy S is all of these things; The Christ Conspiracy is a tedious, boring compiliation of some of the silliest arguments, some of the broadest and vaguest generalizations, drawn from some of the most outdated and unreliable sources, that I have yet seen composed.

 

Achy S didn't begin her Christ-myth career with this book: She's had a page on the Web for quite some time, and has been peddling her myth-theory on it. Let's summarize by noting that Achy holds the banner for the thesis that Christ as a human never existed, but goes down the fork of the road that even G. A. Wells abandoned some time ago: That Christ as a figure was derived from pagan mythologies. I would begin here by recommending to the reader Glenn Miller's work in progress on Copycat Myths. Beyond that, I will take some time to refute some ideas in detail (especially in a new series on pagan comparisons). Between numerous essays, much of what Achy has to say has already been asked and answered on this page, and beyond that lies a world of Biblical scholarship that leaves her and her outdated and irrelevant sources (like the works of G. A. Wells, Barbara Walker's Women's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets, and Lloyd M. Graham's Deceptions and Myths of the Bible) groaning in the dust. Readers of this book have told that Achy gets a lot of respect from certain quarters, and I can believe it: Just look at reviews of her book on Amazon.com!!!!! What this shows, of course, is that critical thinking ability has sunk to a new low... Poor Acharya S.

 

ROBERT M. PRICE

 

And who is this Robert M. Price???? I have done you a favor again. I researched on this guy and I think most of you will change your mind. He is also the Author of not only the "Christ a Fiction" but also the "Deconstructing Jesus". And I want to share a splendid review of his book by Earl Doherty. Institute for Higher Critical Studies

JHC 7/1 (Spring 2000), 126-140. Please refer to URL http://www.depts.drew.edu/jhc/doherty_price.html

 

"Post-Deconstruction

 

Price offers a splendid summing up of what this vast deconstruction of the Christian Jesus has led to, and I'll quote the final two paragraphs of his last chapter, The Historicized Jesus? [p. 260-61]:

 

Traditionally, Christ-Myth theorists have argued that one finds a purely mythic conception of Jesus in the epistles and that the life of Jesus the historical teacher and healer as we read it in the gospels is a later historicization. This may indeed be so, but it is important to recognize the obvious: The gospel story of Jesus is itself apparently mythic from first to last. In the gospels the degree of historicization is actually quite minimal, mainly consisting of the addition of the layer derived from contemporary messiahs and prophets, as outlined above. One does not need to repair to the epistles to find a mythic Jesus. The gospel story itself is already pure legend. What can we say of a supposed historical figure whose life story conforms virtually in every detail to the Mythic Hero Archetype, with nothing, no "secular" or mundane information, left over? As Dundes is careful to point out, it doesn't prove there was no historical Jesus, for it is not implausible that a genuine, historical individual might become so lionized, even so deified, that his life and career would be completely assimilated to the Mythic Hero Archetype. But if that happened, we could no longer be sure there had ever been a real person at the root of the whole thing. The stained glass would have become just too thick to peer through.

Alexander the Great, Caesar Augustus, Cyrus, King Arthur, and others have nearly suffered this fate. What keeps historians from dismissing them as mere myths, like Paul Bunyan, is that there is some residue. We know at least a bit of mundane information about them, perhaps quite a bit, that does not form part of any legend cycle. Or they are so intricately woven into the history of the time that it is impossible to make sense of that history without them. But is this the case with Jesus? I fear it is not. The apparent links with Roman and Herodian figures is too loose, too doubtful for reasons I have already tried to explain. Thus it seems to me that Jesus must be categorized with other legendary founder figures including the Buddha, Krishna, and Lao-tzu. There may have been a real figure there, but there is simply no longer any way of being sure."

 

DEAR READERS PLEASE TAKE NOTE OF THE LAST TWO SENTENCES AND I QUOTE:

 

"Thus it seems to me that Jesus must be categorized with other legendary founder figures including the Buddha, Krishna, and Lao-tzu. There may have been a real figure there, but there is simply no longer any way of being sure."

 

He is indeed an atheist. Krishna is a legend? And Buddha? and Lao-tzu? and he wanted to deconstruct Jesus? Well, if you believe with this ROBERT M. PRICE, it's like exchanging Srila Prabhupada with these rascals.

 

Shiva, do you have a TRUE Paramatma in you? Please for God's sake, "BE WISE AS A SERPENT..." And you continue to attach these URLS from the Unbelievers? Chant Hare Krishna instead!

 

With prayers,

Myra

 

P.s. Don't want to continue researching with the rest of the writers in the link, I am sure they all have the same feathers.

[theist]

You have done shiva ( and us all) a great service by doing some investigative work. This world is indeed filled with people of all sorts of imaginative opinions to back up their atheistic views. They often cloak themselves as "scholars" to add legitemacy to their speculations in order to gain some idolization from people in general and to sell more books.

 

Simply cheaters who devotees would be wise to avoid. Time is short and each birth too valuable to waste in our journies Homeward.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

I find your response very telling, all you do is try and defame the author, which is of course only one of many authors at that link,many of which are in fact ex christian

preachers.

 

then you present a passage that gives no specific argument

using reason or data, simply more of the same perjorative

type of argument.

 

 

Did they forget con artist, amateur logician, angry and irrational person?

 

 

The Christ Conspiracy is a tedious, boring compiliation of some of the silliest arguments, some of the broadest and vaguest generalizations, drawn from some of the most outdated and unreliable sources, that I have yet seen composed

 

 

 

He is indeed an atheist. Krishna is a legend? And Buddha? and Lao-tzu? and he wanted to deconstruct Jesus? Well, if you believe with this ROBERT M. PRICE, it's like exchanging Srila Prabhupada with these rascals.

 

 

 

so basically that is the extent of your argument, debate by defamation.

 

Hey but what did i expect, If you cannot refute the actual data,all you have left is assasination of character.

 

Why am i not suprised to see theist praising that kind of

debating style ?

[theist]

Trying to bring the thread back on line a bit. Concerning the Passion of Christ film, I am presently not inclined to see the film because of its reported realism. Although I think that very graphic realism will have a profound affect in showing many to what degree lovers of God are willing to go to in obeying the Lord.

 

In a similar way I couldn't watch a film depicting the graphic caning of Hari das Thakur through 22 market places.

 

It may be that that I just couldn't face that degree of having to face my own unwillingness to sacrifice and undergo the most minimal personal austerity to please Krsna.

 

But I also don't like to see those crucifixes of Christ hanging on the cross.

[Guest guest]

Mel gibson is a catholic,presenting catholic propaganda,

they do not see Jesus as a lover of God,they see Jesus

As God.

 

His suffering is not what you try and portray it as ,

in the film the view is that Jesus is suffering the sins

of Adam,taking the original sin of mankind on his head,

by doing so all future people are saved from that original sin.

 

in other words before that time,heaven was empty,

since that time heaven is still empty, why ?

 

until the second coming of jesus all who have died are

in some kind of limbo, when jesus comes again

they will rise up ,their dust will reanimate,they will

have new bodies and live here on earth with jesus forever,

the "new jerusalem".

 

those who do not "accept" jesus are eliminated from existence.

 

this is what christianity is teaching, while a small

amount of "christians" have different beliefs then this,

this is the belief of the mass of christians,catholics,protestants and eastern orthodoxy.

 

You may find some kind of holiness in that teaching,

but it really is just ,submit or else.

 

Not about love,it's about a threat.

[theist]

start a thread on all the problems you see in what certain Christians teach and respect this one for what topic it has been established for?

[Guest guest]

this is the topic, the topic started out as a

promotion of Mel Gibsons film, then it became an attack

on "the jews" as being behind the criticism

of the movie.

 

then it became about the authenticity of the claims

of Mel,the claim of accurate history.

 

Then when data was provided to show the claim was not

supportable by anything other then faith in

todays bible and the visions of nuns, the response was

to attack the credibility of the source of the data.

 

when that was pointed out as a fascist technique used

to keep people in ignorance and fearfull of

of knowledge as being "blasphemy", then again

more perjorative accusatory posts against not

the ideas,but the character of the persons

giving the ideas, then there was a hip hip hurray

for our side from a certain vaisnava,and then a

complaint that the topic had strayd when in fact it had not,al thathad happened is that the exposed underhanded

technique of suppresion and name calling was

shown for what it was.

 

then the complaint of topic changing to hide that.

[Kulapavana]

hopefully this quote will bring this thread back on the subject.... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

"Even the leaders of Israel My Glory, a fanatically pro-Zionist, supposedly Christian ministry, have made note of the bizarre views of the Jews as found in their own book of laws and traditions, the Jewish Talmud. The organization's magazine (Dec./Jan. 1995/1996) published a revealing article detailing many of the hate-filled Talmudic beliefs of the Rabbis and their Zionist followers.

 

These beliefs include the teaching that Jesus was born a bastard and his mother, Mary, was a harlot (Mishna Yebamoth 4,13); that Jesus practiced black arts of magic (Sanhedrin 1076), and that Jesus is now suffering eternal punishment in a boiling vat of filthy excrement (Mishna Sanhedrin X, 2). These references come from the English translation of the Talmud known as The Soncino Talmud.

 

Indeed, the hate-filled, anti-Christian movie, The Last Temptation of Christ, produced by Universal Studios and its Chairman, the Jew, Lewis Wasserman, was an accurate, if disgusting, reflection of what the Jews' most holy book, the Talmud, teaches. And yet the Rabbis and leaders of the Jewish-led Simon Wiesenthal Center, The ADL, and the Southern Poverty Law Center have the audacity to blast and criticize Mel Gibson's upcoming movie merely because it recounts the gospel truth about the trial and death of Jesus."

 

Texe Marrs

[Guest guest]

many christians have spoken out against the movie, here .

 

the fact is that the crucifiction of jesus has been the inspiration for millions of tortures,deaths,oppresion,

bigotry, etc, for a long time.

 

The story itself was written and changed as christianity

became more popular with romans and less so with the jewish population.

 

the story originaly has the death of jesus at the hands

of the romans, as christianity became more roman, that was changed and the new villians of the story were the jews.

 

Just as Mary Magdalane was changed from an ordinary

(some say wealthy,the gnostic gosples say Mary

was the chief disciple of jesus and was also his

lover or wife,leading the disiciples after jesus

was gone) women into a prostitute,this was done

by the church and is now universally accepted as a historic fact.

 

so when Mel makes a movie with its lure as it's "authentic historical" take on jesus,and the jews are protrayed

as the villians, of course this is going to cause

a backlash.

 

The jews have been tortured for two thousand years

as the scapegoats and villians of the jesus story,

this was done on purpose at first to remove obstacles

from the roman authorities by placing blame on jews instead of romans, also to placate romans who they wished to convert, and then as policy of the official roman church

to propagandize against the jews as heretics,god killers,

etc, because they would not accept the roman church as absolute authority coming from God.

 

so in short, this re telling of the traditional propaganda

that was created in the first place for one reason,

to villify the jews, is now being recast as proper and historically accurate, and those jews who are against

it as being the villians in this story as well.

 

just shows to go ya.

[Guest guest]

 

The destructing critics (like the one here) of "The Passion of Christ" film worth no reply.

[Guest guest]

there are scholars who have studied this and here is some of their opinions,

 

good site, and also cultural mythology