The Passion of Christ

[Guest guest]

more contradictions in the gospels

 

will "the passion" crucify the jews ?

[Myra]

Answer to the Critics of Mel Gibson's Movie, The Passion of Christ

 

by Betty Miller

 

 

Though The Passion of Christ, will not be released until Spring of 2004, it is interesting to see the controversy that this movie has already generated. Opponents are declaring the movie could incite hatred against the Jews, because the movie portrays Jews as having a part in killing Jesus. In a time when anti-Semitism is on the rise in some parts of the world, we can understand why a Jewish person may be concerned. Though anti-Semitic slurs such as "Christ killer" have been used to incite persecution against the Jews for centuries, these were done by ignorant people who were deceived. Today the Christian church has recognized this terrible evil committed by our ancestors. We grieve over the atrocities that have been done to Jews in the name of Christ. Such actions do not bear the character of Jesus Christ, who was Himself a Jew. We certainly never want to see such things happen again; and in fact there are more Christians today supporting Jewish causes than at any other time in history.

 

Regardless of the how the facts have been twisted in the past to incite racism and persecution against the Jews, the fact does remain that Jews--along with the Romans--were indeed involved in the death of Christ. However, true Christians do not blame the Jews, but rather know that it was all of mankind's sin that sent Him to the cross.

 

Matthew 27:22-26:

22 Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.

23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.

24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

26 Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.

 

In fact, the Gospels also bear record that some of the Jews were friends of Jesus -- they loved Him. Not all wanted to kill Him. It was a rich Jewish man (Joseph of Aramethea) who provided his own tomb for Jesus after He died. In every people group, there are good people and evil people. The Jews are no different than anyone else in this regard, and their own history as recorded in the Bible proves this to be true. The Old Testament scriptures record the success and failures of their heroes and their villains without sugar-coating the truth. In the same way the New testament writers (who were for the most part also Jewish) also did not sugar coat the truth when it came to their own people.

 

This message of the cross is hated by the devil as it brings life to those who accept Jesus as their Savior. The Passion of Christ is a movie that depicts the last 12 hours in the life of Jesus which took place in Jerusalem, the home of the Jews. Therefore, the Jewish people were highly involved in this story historically. If the setting was another country, the nationality of those people would be a part of the record. In this story, it is the Jews. However, they are not the only people involved. As we mentioned earlier, the Roman rulers and soldiers were also a part of the story too.

 

So Who Killed Jesus Christ?

 

Actually, the Bible tells us that all of us are responsible for Jesus' death on the cross, as He willingly went there for the sins of all mankind. Everyone of us had a part in His suffering and agony. He died so that we can all live eternally if we repent of our sins and accept what He did for us and surrender our lives to Him. All may be saved, no matter what nationality, religion, race, or background we may come from. Once any of us come to know Him, we immediately want to tell others that He is the true Messiah and Savior of the world.

 

We thank God for Mel Gibson and all Christians who are in the spotlight for sharing the gospel message. We must all pray for him and for the success of this movie so that it will cause many people (Jew and Gentile alike) to take a fresh look at Jesus Christ and put their faith in Him.

 

1 Corinthians 1:18-24 (Amplified Bible):

 

"For the story and message of the cross is sheer absurdity and folly to those who are perishing and on their way to perdition, but to us who are being saved it is the [manifestation of] the power of God. For it is written, I will baffle and render useless and destroy the learning of the learned and the philosophy of the philosophers and the cleverness of the clever and the discernment of the discerning; I will frustrate and nullify [them] and bring [them] to nothing.

 

Where is the wise man (the philosopher)? Where is the scribe (the scholar)? Where is the investigator (the logician, the debater) of this present time and age? Has not God shown up the nonsense and the folly of this world's wisdom?

 

For when the world with all its earthly wisdom failed to perceive and recognize and know God by means of its own philosophy, God in His wisdom was pleased through the foolishness of preaching [salvation, procured by Christ and to be had through Him], to save those who believed (who clung to and trusted in and relied on Him).

 

For while Jews [demandingly] ask for signs and miracles and Greeks pursue philosophy and wisdom, We preach Christ (the Messiah) crucified, [preaching which] to the Jews is a scandal and an offensive stumbling block [that springs a snare or trap], and to the Gentiles it is absurd and utterly unphilosophical nonsense.

 

But to those who are called, whether Jew or Greek (Gentile), Christ [is] the Power of God and the Wisdom of God."

 

The bottom line to this controversy is that this is not an issue of anti-Semitism, but rather an issue of belief. The Jewish faith believes only in the Old Testament of the Bible, while the Christian faith believes in both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. Historically the Jewish people had a part in sending Jesus to the cross; however, the true Christian knows that all are guilty of sending Him there by our sins. The good news is that Jesus went there willingly to pay the price for our sins. He was buried and then rose on the third day and lives forevermore and all who put their trust in Him will also have eternal life. Mel Gibson and all who are true Christians can never deny this truth.

 

 

[Guest guest]

people who use the gospels as being factual history,

as she does, "it is a fact jews were part of the

death of jesus", need to study the history of the gospels.

 

they will find a convoluted history to say the least,

to accept the gospels as accurate portrayals

without any study of how they came about,

or prejudiced accounts ,what value can your opinion

have when it states the gospels are accurate ?

 

When you take into account that there were hundreds

of gospels,almost all rejected as not being in line

with the council of niceas vision of what would become

official "history' and dogma,then also take into account

that the gospels both accepted ones and rejected ones

differ on the story of Jesus, then with these thoughts

how can one seriously state that "jews were in fact involved

in the death of Jesus" ?

 

What is the source of this info ?

what is it's credibility ?

why was that version of Jesus's life

accepted and the mass of others

deemed heresy ?

 

all in all it is a very problematic position

to give accurate historical credence

to something with little to no

value in terms of scholarship,

especially when that very version of

"history" can be shown to have been

used for the express purpose to vilify

and condemn jews throughout history,

at the same time gaining support from

the romans and other anti jewish peoples.

 

[theist]

Shiva will never understand that we don't accept his sources as well as he doesn't accept ours.

 

That freedom we all have.

 

What do your so-called scholars have to offer in terms of proof for the Varaha Avatar shiva?

 

 

[Myra]

 

Shiva,

 

Theist is right. I can see that we will never compromise because both parties don't believe each other's sources. But you know something? I wanna thank you because the more you post "deconstructing" views about Lord Jesus, the more I see His glory, the more I feel closer to Him, the more I crave to read about Him, the more I see that He is soooo true, the more I learn about Him, the more I know Him and the more I love Him.

 

Hope you will find time to study more about Bible and who knows? You might bump into one of it's scriptures that would change your views/life forever.

 

Jesus Christ said:

 

"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him." John 10:37-39

[Guest guest]

no theist is wrong, theist doesn't do his homework,

and apparently neither do you.

 

The history of christianity is available to us,

the first hand accounts of it's development

in the first few centuries can be studied,

not so with the vedic religious history,

those events happened long ago and there is no

non biased source to study,only religious history

that wants to preach the message.

 

the vedic histories cannot be studied historicaly

speaking, they can be studied from other points of view,

whereas the history of the development of christian dogma and the bible is in fact available for study.

 

Of course if you do not study them,then claim that the history they show is wrong,then what is the point

of arguing your point, your argument is not based

on research of these topics,simply you are denying

the history as wrong,without showing how,where,when and who made the mistake,or even what the mistake is,you simply

negate,and call that appropriate.

 

that is fine if you want to believe in the gospels

as true,if you want to find out about the truth of the gospels,then that is also possible,it's up to you.

[Kulapavana]

Source: Forward

Published: November 14, 2003 Author: NACHA CATTAN

 

A leading critic of Mel Gibson's controversial film about the death of Jesus has resigned from his post at the Anti-Defamation League.

 

Eugene Korn, the ADL's director of interfaith affairs, told the Forward that his resignation last week represented a "mutual decision" resulting from his need for "a more reflective and contemplative environment." Korn's departure has some Jewish communal observers suggesting that a more diplomatic approach is needed in dealing with Gibson's upcoming film, "The Passion of Christ."

 

Though the organization's strong rebuke of Gibson and his film was hailed by officials at several Jewish organizations, it has been criticized as counterproductive by an increasing number of communal experts.

 

"We have to ask questions in the Jewish community about the approach taken to this film," said Elan Steinberg, the senior adviser to the World Jewish Congress. "Have we really examined the question of whether bringing greater publicity to the film, broad charges of antisemitism and perhaps disenchanting those who are our allies in many struggles should be done in such a cavalier way?"

 

Some sources familiar with the situation say that Korn was uncomfortable with the aggressive style of the ADL's longtime national director, Abraham Foxman, on several interfaith issues, including the Gibson movie. Korn, who has been at the ADL for less than two years, declined to comment on the dynamic between himself and the group's charismatic leader, though he acknowledged a "difference in style" between himself and the ADL. He did, however, insist that he agreed with the organization's handling of "The Passion.Personally I think the strategy is correct," Korn said. "I was one of the leaders of the strategy."

 

The ADL did not return calls seeking comment.

 

Some critics argued that the ADL strategy might be backfiring. "I'm not sure if we're not playing into [Gibson's] hands," said Gilbert Rosenthal, director of the National Council of Synagogues, a partnership run by the Reform and Conservative movements dedicated to interfaith dialogue. "He said he's got millions of dollars in free publicity. I'd like to see statements from the Christian community on this."

 

At the Reform movement's biennial convention in Minneapolis last week, Hebrew Union College professor Rabbi Michael Cook warned that the Jewish community needed to abandon the strategy of loudly criticizing the movie or risk embarrassment when it hits theaters. According to Cook, who served on an interfaith panel of scholars co-convened by the ADL that drafted a critical assessment of a screenplay for the movie, Gibson is in the process of altering the film, and it will be less offensive than many have been predicting. Instead of acknowledging the degree to which he responded to his Jewish critics, Cook said, Gibson will point a derisive finger, asking what all the shouting was about.

 

These are just the latest statements from a growing list of critics who claim that defense organizations, including the ADL, are mistakenly attempting to discredit and strong-arm Gibson. Other critics include Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein, president and founder of the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews; Michael Medved, a conservative film critic and Orthodox Jew; and Rabbi Daniel Lapin, president of Toward Tradition, a conservative group dedicated to forging better relations between Jews and Christians.

 

The ADL, and to a lesser extent the Simon Wiesenthal Center, have been at the forefront of the battle against Gibson's film, which they say blames Jews for the death of Jesus and could stoke antisemitism. Gibson belongs to an ultra-traditionalist Catholic splinter sect that rejects Second Vatican Council reforms.

 

The ADL stirred controversy earlier this year when it co-convened a panel of Jewish and Catholic scholars to review an initial screenplay of the film and provide feedback to Gibson. Gibson charged that the script reviewed had been obtained illegally. Korn later attended a screening of a rough cut of the film, due out this spring, after which the ADL concluded that "The Passion" depicts Jews as responsible for Jesus' death.

 

Some experts in Catholic-Jewish relations defended the ADL. "I think it's important to confront these issues and alert the community," said Seymour Reich, an ADL lay leader and past chairman of the International Jewish Committee for Inter-religious Consultations.

 

Communal leaders praised Korn for his levelheaded and analytical approach to interfaith dialogue and lamented his absence at a crucial time for Catholic-Jewish relations.

 

"He had his own entree to the Vatican," Reich said. "He could call up and speak directly to Cardinal [Walter] Kasper," the top Vatican liaison to the Jewish community.

 

Reich said that he believed that Korn convinced Kasper to issue a statement saying that two church officials who praised the film were not speaking for the Vatican.

 

Israel Singer, chairman of the World Jewish Congress, said that Korn is "a scholar in a field where there's a paucity of scholars."

 

Korn's recently appointed counterpart at the American Jewish Committee, David Elcott, said: "Not having Gene, somebody of his caliber in that position, is not just a loss for the Jewish community, but for those who want to see religion and religious values working in a positive and constructive way. He has many contacts and our voice will not be as strong."

 

Korn said he plans to consult with other Jewish organizations on inter-religious affairs, including local Jewish community relations councils.

[Guest guest]

 

funny, if you make a movie about jews killing

god,then call that the truth that needs to be told,

you can be applauded by many,and those who

see it is as a self serving egotism or dangerous

myth inciting irrational blind hatred

of the "god killers' will be casitgated

as irrational,haters,and egotists.

 

but if on the other hand you make a movie

about a u.s. president whose mythological

exploits can be read by anyone,his

institutionalization of the greed system

led by the u.s in the the corporate takeover of the world,

 

well that just won't be allowed.

 

if jesus voted for clinton,the movie would be

banned.

 

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Kulapavana]

Yes, the US has become a playground (battleground?) of special interest groups. Greed is running rampant all over the place, as de facto vaishyas rule. Primitive religions are used to manipulate people for material gain by pseudo-brahmanas sold out to asuric vaishyas, and pseudo-kshatriyas make sure the system cant be broken. In short: Kali-yuga in full swing /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Kulapavana]

Source: BP News (Baptist Press)

Published: December 3, 2003

 

Mel Gibson gives Billy Graham special screening of 'Passion'

 

CHARLOTTE, N.C. (BP)--Billy Graham watched a special showing of Mel Gibson's "The Passion of Christ" and spoke with the Hollywood star about the decade-long spiritual journey that led to the film, according to a news release from the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association.

 

"I have often wondered what it must have been like to be a bystander during those last hours before Jesus' death," Graham said in the late-November release. "After watching The Passion of Christ, I feel as if I have actually been there.

 

"I was moved to tears. I doubt if there has ever been a more graphic and moving presentation of Jesus' death and resurrection, which Christians believe are the most important events in human history," he said.

 

Gibson traveled to Graham's home in Charlotte, N.C., both before and after Graham watched the film. During both visits, Graham became convinced of Gibson's deep sincerity and his desire that the movie be used to bring a new emphasis on the events of 2,000 years ago and their relevance today, the news release said.

 

Graham addressed some criticisms that Gibson's film encourages anti-Semitism.

 

"The film is faithful to the Bible's teaching that we are all responsible for Jesus' death, because we have all sinned," Graham said. "It is our sins that caused His death, not any particular group."

 

The release said Graham also was impressed by the deep sincerity and commitment of Jim Caviezel, who plays Jesus in the film, and his wife, Kerri. The two joined Gibson in speaking with Graham.

 

The Passion of Christ is set to open in theaters nationwide Feb. 25, which is Ash Wednesday and the beginning of the time when various branches of Christianity traditionally reflect on Jesus' sacrifice. Graham said he believes the timing will add to the spiritual impact the film may have on mainstream audiences.

 

"No one who views this film's compelling imagery will ever be the same," Graham said.

 

[Guest guest]

This may be an old thread, but I'd still like to add something. First of all, it is very annoying to watch people compare bible/jesus with Gita/Krishna. In all probablity, Jesus is a myth invented by so-called St. Paul to spread Christianity. The guy was intelligent, he understood human psychology perfectly. Unless and until you introduce an inspirational character, any religion you start cannot succeed, people won't accept it. Paul knew this truth, so introduced the myth of Jesus, the loving carpenter and son of God. Naturally, people started enrolling (lmao) for Christianity because most humans are like sheep. They love to follow some leader or other, EVEN IF IT IS ONLY A MYTH. It gives them satisfaction, and with miracles adn stuff, it only swelled the membership. This is the secret of Christian success. Invent myths and miracles, cheat adn bribe ppl to convert, and if they refuse, just kill them. Sooooo loving and caring, I am sure God will be proud.

 

Second, people here seem to think SP taught Jesus' sayings. I know he did, and it is unfortunate but you're gonna have to understand one IMPORTANT fact. At that time in the west, there wasn't much receptivity. People were content to be materialistic, go to church once a week and get it over with. So to attract indiffernt people to this path, he had NO CHOICE but to appeal to them via Jesus or whoever. But I am sure he knew in his heart of hearts that Jesus was just a myth, and even if he were real, he wasn't worthy of adoration any more than Moahmeed or Moses. Everything Jesus SUPPOSEDLY said was in the vedic philosophy such as karma etc. He didnt say anything new, assuming he did exist. Much of it was borrowed from H'ism, and cunning St.Paul used it remarkably to market his product...er....religion as something new and extraordinary. Well, it was extraordinary all right, extraordinary in its violence, bigotry and terrorism, a plethora of pedophile prophets, forcible conversions, crusades and inquisitions...need i go on or do the dunderheads get the picture?

[Guest guest]

I haven't got time to debate with the last poster, but I am sick and tired of hearing how WE have to accept Prabhupada was LYING about the reality of Jesus simply for preaching purposes. Even from that perspective, he would have lied once, maybe twice, three at the most. However we see THROUGHOUT his books that Prabhuapda repeatedly mentions Jesus and more than once (a lot more!) has stated Jesus was shaktyavesh avatara. If anyone has to start accepting anything, its the Hindus (and not all Hindus) who can't give up their hate for Christianity. Just try to undrestand, Christ and Christianity are not the same topic.

 

YS,

Prtha dd

[Priitaa]

To all unsigned guests who have the courage to criticize but not the courage to put their name to it, and hopefully to the others who are sincere but do not understand or else know the details, I wish to take a few minutes and clear up what Prabhupada has been acused of, as well as his followers: that he is telling tall tales in order to convert us, and that we were just sheep who prefer to follow blindly.

 

Let us remember that this Hare Krishna movement began in the 60s - not a time of blind followers! The youth had all ready given up their churches and various types of blind following. If ever there was a time in America for the highest Truth to be presented, this was it! We were no longer accepting what we were born into but looking for transcendence. Countless devotees had 'already' been looking into a variety of yoga paths which they knew their parents would view as heathen or at least pagan. I could give much other proof, but hopefully I wont have to - that the point has been made.

 

The next point which some seem to be having a LOT of toruble with, is that there is a vast difference between Christ the person and modern day Christianity - the religion.

 

It appears to me that on the one hand such posters want to accept Prabhupada, but they don't accept all of which he has said. In order to think they are accepting him, they come up with these various philosophies to justify their own belief system in their minds. However, one must surrender fully to the pure devotee. One can't accept and reject his various teachings. "Oh, I like what he says here so I accept, but this part over there, it does not please my senses (which include the mind), therefore I reject those." First one must take the time to decide if they even want to surrender to the pure deovtee. If they dont, thats fine, but then they should not think they are in a position to instruct anyone. Unless they can show they have taken shelter of another pure devotee.

 

With that said, I'd next like to point out something that may not have been considered. Often Krishna does not immediately send to earth one who tells of Him, as most are not ready to handle that. The people may be too fallen to hear. So Krishna sets the stage. He sends down many prophets and saints to prepare and 'gradually' elevate people so at some future time, he can finally send someone to speak directly about Krishna and finally people will be receptive. Therefore, at least in theory I hope some can accept that Jesus was sent to prepare and gradually elevate the people for future, higher teachings.

 

It is an offense to call Jesus a myth. Whether someone likes it or dislikes it, Jesus was a Vaisnava. I call him an "undercover Hare Krishna devotee." /images/graemlins/smile.gif And Jesus did say that he had much more to tell, but the people could not bear that now. Hint, hint, ok? That's about Krishna! God is blue and plays a flute? Oh yeah, they would have really loved that. They crucified him for less. -- He knew what he was doing. We, however, do not.

 

Regarding Prabhuapda as the only acarya to mention or accept Jesus and not others, I will put something at the bottom you may find of interest.

 

For now, here are more than 1, 2, 3 - then more - quotes from Prabhupada which may explain some points. Of course, if one rather argue than hear from the pure devotee, nothing I post here will matter. Anyway, take it or leave it, its yours to do that with.

 

+++++++

 

Prabhupada: He (Jesus) was educated of his spiritual life in India. Twelve years here. Twelve years he was. And he lived in Jagannatha temple." Srila Prabhupada Morning Walk, Feb 17, 74, Bombay India

 

--

 

"When our constitutional position or dharma is deteriorated due to the contaminations of matter, the Lord Himself comes as an incarnation or sends some of His confidential servitors. Lord Jesus Christ called himself the "son of God," and so is a representative of the Supreme. ~ Srila Prabhupada, On The Way To Krishna, Chapter 2

 

--

 

"Prabhupada: Yes. Lord Jesus Christ, he was Vaisnava. He directly gave you the idea of personal God. The personal God is the origin." ~ Srila Prabhupada Room Conversation with Prof. Regamay, Prof of Sanskrit of University of Lausanne, June 4, 1974, Geneva

 

--

 

"Formerly, people used to go to India to find out about spiritual life. Even Jesus Christ went there. And yet we are not taking advantage of it. It is not that these literatures and directions are meant only for the Indians or for the Hindus or for the brahmanas. No. They are meant for everyone, because Krsna claims, aham bija-pradah pita: "I am everyone's father." Therefore, He is very anxious to make us peaceful and happy. Just as an ordinary father wants to see that his son is well situated and happy, similarly Krsna wants to see every one of us well situated and happy. Therefore He comes sometimes. This is the purpose of Krsna's advent. Thank you very much." ~ Srila Prabhupada, Journey of Self Discovery - Chapter Who Is Krishna? 2.4

 

--

 

"It is said that Lord Jesus Christ, when twelve years old, was shocked to see the Jews sacrificing birds and animals in the synagogues and that he therefore rejected the Jewish system of religion and started the religious system of Christianity, adhering to the Old Testament commandment "Thou shalt not kill." ~ Srimad Bhagavatam, 7.15.10 P

 

--

"Just like the sun is great; therefore even the sun is seen in India or in America or China, anywhere, any part of the world, any part of the universe, the sun is one. Nobody can say, "Oh, it is American sun" or "It is Indian sun." So either Jesus Christ or Rama or Krsna, whoever comes from the kingdom of God, they are the same. There is no difference. But the difference is... Just like in your country temperature of sun is less, and in a tropical country the temperature of the sun is very great. Does it mean the sun's temperature is changed? It is according to the reception. The atmosphere of this country is so surcharged that you cannot receive the sunshine properly, but the sunshine distributes its shining everywhere the same. Similarly, according to the country, according to the circumstances, according to the planet, God is manifested differently, but He is not different. You are wrapping your body with some winter clothes. Same time, telegraph in India, oh, they are running fan. Why the temperature is different? Therefore whatever Lord Jesus Christ says or whatever Krsna says or what Rama says, that is in terms of the place, in terms of the circumstances, atmosphere, persons, hearer." ~ Srila Prabhupada, Seattle, Sept 30, 68

 

--

Prabhupäda: Body of Christ is not ordinary body. That is spiritual body. Krsna, as Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gétä, yadä yadä hi dharmasya glänir bhavati bhärata [bg. 4.7], pariträëäya sädhünäà vinäçäya ca duñkåtäm, dharma-saàsthäpanärthäya yuge yuge sambhavämi ätma-mäyayä [bg. 4.8]. So this is a very subtle point. One has to understand that when God comes or God’s son comes or God’s representative comes, they do not accept a body like us. They have their spiritual body. SB lecture 7.6.1 June 10,68

 

--

 

"The Vedic civilization is... Therefore India was open to everyone: "Come on. Come here." Therefore they entered as friend, and they conquered. Because India was open. "Yes, you are guest. Come on. You learn here." Lord Jesus Christ also went there to learn. ~ Srila Prabhupada lecture, Srimad Bhagavatam 2.9.14, Melbourne, April 13, 72

 

---

 

"And then there is saktyavesa-avatara. Saktyavesa-avatara, they are counted just like Lord Buddha, Jesus Christ. They are counted amongst the saktyavesavataras. They are also incarnation of saktyavesavatara, powerful." Srila Prabhupada lecture, CC Madhya 20.172, NY Dec 14, 1966

 

++++++++

 

Regarding the belief that I have read on these message boards expressing there has not been any other other past acarya's who accepted Jesus Christ:

 

Revatinandana: I have a question. One of my prabhus told me that you once said that your Guru Maharaja said that Jesus Christ was a saktyavesavatara. Is that correct?

Prabhupada: Yes. Because he said it, it must be correct. ~ SP, SB 6.127-34, Lecture, Suat, Dec., 17, 1970

 

--

 

To Love God

Srila Saccidananda Bhaktivinoda Thakura

[Tajpur journal, Friday, August 25, 1871]

 

It was Christ Jesus who first said "Love God with all thy heart, with all thy mind, with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and love man as thy brother." This is an absolute truth indeed; but different men put different interpretations to this noble expression. The expressions of all great men are nice but somewhat mysterious - when understood they bring the truth nearest to heart otherwise they remain mere letters that "kill." The reason of the mystery is that men, advanced in their inward approach to the Deity, are in the habit of receiving revelations which are but mysteries to those that are behind them. The stages of progress are very much the same as the circles of spiritualism which, though not true themselves, explain a great deal about the gradual development of the soul.

 

We have understood some spiritualists to maintain that matter when sublimated converts itself to spirit. This theory is indeed against any inward conviction. Matter is matter, and spirit is spirit; one of them cannot form the other. Spirit is certainly of superior existence; though we cannot fully understand in our present state of material imprisonment, what relation spirit does exactly bear to matter, space and time. Metaphysics apart, we decide that the human soul rises higher and higher and can understand things of which we have no idea at present. Subject to this important rule, Christ Jesus of Nazareth received and uttered these words quoted above.

 

To readers who are a little above the scale of ordinary men, these expressions of Jesus teach, that man should love God with all his heart (meaning the affections of the heart perceivable in all children as opposed to hate), with all his mind (meaning the intellect which knows, as opposed to igorance of, good things), with all his soul, (meaning the principle of the human constitution which worships the Almighty and feels its own immortality) and with all its strength (meaning all active work). To the inspired, however, more things and better and sublimer meanings appear beneath these holy words of the inspired Jesus. He teaches man to love God and not to know, infer, hate or think of God. He tells us that man in his absolute state is not the intellect or the body but is the pure soul itself.

 

The essence of the soul is wisdom and its action is love absolute. The absolute condition of man is his absolute relation to the Deity in pure love. Love then alone is the religion of the soul and consequently of the whole man. The pupil asks here "What have I to do with the heart? - my heart loves to see the 'sun to smile', 'to eat the sweetest dishes and to see a dance'". Jesus profoundly replies "Yes, you must love God with all thy heart. Your heart now runs to other things than God, but you must, as you train a bad horse, make your feelings run to the loving God." This is one of the four principles of worship or what is known in Vaishnava literature as Shanta Rasa. Then the pupil says "My Lord, the intellect takes me elsewhere from God, i.e. it wants to take me to Positivism; please instruct me what am I to do?Yes," replies Jesus"you must love god with all your mind, i.e. when you perceive, conceive, remember, imagine and reason, you must not allow yourself to be a dry thinker but must love. Love alone can soften the dryness of the intellect, you must develop the intellect on all good and holy things by means of love of truth, spiritual beauty and harmony." This is the second phase of Vaishnava development which passes by the name of Dasya Rasa. The pupil then enquires whether the development of the affections and the intellect is quite enough for him. Then says the Lord, "You must love God with thy soul also, i.e. you must perceive yourself in spiritual communication with the Deity and receive holy revelations in your sublimest hours of worship." This is called the Sakhya Rasa of the Vaishnavas - the soul approaching the

Deity in holy and fearless service.

 

The disciple apprehends that he will be lost in such a position and will be unable to act. Then the Saviour tells us these words, "You must love God with all thy strength or will - you are wrong to conclude that you will loose your active existence - you will get it the more. Work for God and to God, proceeding from no self interested views but from a holy free will (which is alone the strength of man) and identifying itself with pure love, will fully engross your attention." This description is of Bhakti in general. Then Jesus proceeds to tell us "You must love man as thy brother." From this is inferred the fourth phase of love which is a feeling that all men are brothers and God is their common Father. This is Vatsalya Rasa in its first stage of development.

 

Bhakti (love) is thus perceived in the very first development of the man in shape of heart, then in the shape of mind, then in the shape of soul and lastly in the shape of will. These shapes do not destroy each other but beautifully harmonize themselves into a pure construction of what we call the spiritual man or the Ekanta of Vaishnava Literature.

 

But there is another sublimer truth behind this fact which is revealed to a few that are prepared for it. We mean the spiritual conversion of the soul into a woman. It is in that sublime and lofty state that the soul can taste the sweets of an indissoluble marriage with the God of love. the fifth or the highest stage of Vaishnava development is this, which we call Madhura Rasa, and on this alone the most beautiful portion of the Vaishnava Literature so ably expatiates. This phase of human life, mysterious as it is, is not attainable by all, nay, we should say, by any but "God's own." It is so very beyond the reach of common men that the rationalists and even the ordinary theists cannot understand it, nay, they go as far as to sneer at it as something unnatural.

 

Oh God! Reveal Thy most valuable truths to all so that Your own may not be numbered with the fanatics and the crazed and that the whole of mankind may be admitted as "Your own."

 

++++++

 

[Guest guest]

You can post any number of 'details', but the fact remains the same.

 

1) Jesus is a myth.

 

2) Christianity was invented by a clever businessman to make money and followers, and

 

3) SP had ulterior motives when he spoke highly of jesus, his myth and miracles

 

4) Everything you said is just blah

 

All clear, baby?

[ancient_paztriot]

This is the political tactic… simply have the last word.

 

It doesn't matter if we're VERY IGNORANT and can't defend our points, becasue that's not the process anyway.

 

The process is to politically position yourself to disturb things and create doubt among those still struggling with the issues.

 

This guest has been in several threads. Surely, we all recognize his voice by now. It is a waste of time to give him your energy.

 

He does not want dialogue and knowledge. He wants war. Considering the circumstances, it's best just to avoid him.

 

Nice post Priitaa.

[Priitaa]

As I said, if you don't want to surrender to the pure devotee, NOTHING I SAY will matter. And now you have proven it. Its so much easier to hang on to your 'own' beliefs than to accept his.

 

And the so-called facts you present are merely those of material historians who don't even agree with each other. Give me a break. I'd rather take my facts from those who have seen Krishna.

 

You too can post any number of details of 'your' belief. But you aint a pure devotee 'baby,' so I'm not going to surrender unto you.

 

Keep on twisting Prabhupada's words to suit yourself. Good luck.

[Priitaa]

Thank you Ancient Patriot,

 

I did not know he was running around causing arguments on various threads or I would not have bothered to post.

 

What bothers me is his method of preaching can result in atheism.

 

[ancient_paztriot]

Yeah, well there's alot of people preaching atheism… it's a big consumer store… many to choose from. This guest is here with an atheistic political agenda.

 

What teacher is gonna waste his time with such a rascal? I know Prabhupada wouldn't put up with it.

 

To continue with him is just to encourage him by affording him the opportunity to be skeptical about ANYTHING said. The devotees have more renunciation and control. Sometimes to act is not to act.

 

Since I can not get rid of him, I'll just avoid him. As soon as I detect he's posted, I just stop reading. This way I don't have to subject myself to all the offensive stuff and he can't get at me and upset me.

 

I loved your closing attack on him under Nice try… fires me up!

[Priitaa]

 

I loved your closing attack on him under Nice try… fires me up!

 

 

haha Thanks. Well, all I could think was, there is nothing he or anyone can say to convince us that what Prabhupada stated, sometimes to his most intimate disciples, is a trick, an angle, a lie, etc. So this poster can try all he wants, but his 'twist' on Prabhupada's teachings are only based in his need to be right all the time. Therefore such false ego shows he has not surrendered to Prabhuapda in the first place, or anyone for that matter. You'll notice he never mentions his guru, just wants folks to surrender unto him. lol

 

But ultimately, now that I know, best not to feed the dragon. :-)

 

 

Also, I think I know who he is.

[ancient_paztriot]

I've noticed him around for maybe 2 or 3 weeks… maybe longer. There's no reason for an individual to come here and debate and then ignore the issues in favor of political rhetoric. But I can smell the underlying fear that motivates the trouble they take… and with good reason. Prabhupada's way can finish our way of life!

 

Anyway, I'm about done with this suject of guest.

 

All the comments suggesting ways to deal with guest were for anyone who might use them. I know you know how to take care of yourself Priitaa.

 

I fear the guest will remain - certainly the surveillance will. We'll have to use him to make us stronger. Pay attention people and be careful about who the authority is. Remember, guest avoids our challenges and sucks us into his only for the purpose of advancing his atheistic agenda.

 

Guest preys on people eager to preach what they know.

 

He’s a real nowhere man,

Sitting in his nowhere land,

Making all his nowhere plans

For nobody.

Doesn’t kave a point of view,

Knows not where he’s going to,

Isn’t he a bit like you and me?

Nowhere man, please listen,

You don’t know what you’re missing,

Nowhere man, the world is at your command.

He’s as blind as he can be,

Just sees what he wants to see,

Nowhere man can you see me at all?

Doesn’t kave a point of view,

Knows not where he’s going to,

Isn’t he a bit like you and me?

Nowhere man, don’t worry,

Take your time, don’t hurry,

Leave it all till somebody else

Lend you a hand.

He’s a real nowhere man,

Sitting in his nowhere land,

Making all his nowhere plans

For nobody - Beatles

[Priitaa]

I suspect he is a certain poster who actually has a registered name, but goes under 'guest' when he wants to ........ shall we say........ be less polite.

 

Anyhow, look back at the thread and see what you think. It may be someone posting regularly there, IMHO.

 

By the way, your last 2 paragraphs hit the nail on the head!

[Guest guest]

This is paranoia at its best. I wonder what you guys are going to say next-that I am a Martian appointed by US govt. to spy on HKs? lol.

 

Wake up and understand the truth. If you are scared, then say so and we shall terminate the conversation. But to accuse me of atheism is not right. HK should follow Krishna only and put trash (read chris and islam) out of their heads. This is my advice to you. Take it before it is too late.

[Priitaa]

Get over yourself. I don't really give a hoot 'who' you are. All I care about is that you are committing aparadha. Stop while you can.

 

Also, it is clearly explained by Prabhuapda that one who takes all faith away from anyone of any other religion with the hopes to prove to them Krishna is God, they do not always accept Krishna is God - thus you have created athiests, as they no longer accept their own religion yet reject this one. If you would read more of Prabhuapda's books and less of these mundane ones, you would have known this.

[Guest guest]

pritha you seem to be implying i am the guest here posting,

that would be incorrect,ask the administrator if you dont believe me.

 

My posts were always on facts,i have no grudge or anything

against jesus people,i simply don't care about jesus as i find nothing of substance in what he did or didn't do that

is worthy of my contemplation.

 

If people want or need to believe in jesus that is in gods

hands,what Prabhupada said is i believe in the spirit

of accomodation and inclusiveness for christian ears,

if you feel that i am wrong ,it doesn't bother me,

who among you study jesus as a source of siddhanta anyways ?

 

what is it that he said that you find so compelling ?

If you like what you hear and find that inspiring to listen to that doesn't bother me at all.

 

At the same time there are many scholars who have studied

the history of christianity and find that the story of jesus

is found elsehwere,their beliefs that jesus was not real

should not make them asuras and unable to gain the

mercy of Nitai Gauranga,don't make demands that jesus must

be accepted in order for Krsna or Gauranga to be accepted,

that is not Prabhupadas mission,the mercy of Mahaprabhu makes no such demands for faith in jesus or mohammed or

anyone else ,it is a giving of Radha Krsna freely,without

demands of submission to some ancillary ideas.

 

[Guest guest]

I think Siva has got you there. There is nothing in Jesus that's appealing, even if you admit the guy as a real person. Everything he said can be found in Hinduism. So it would be better for HKs to stop pretending that they are different from Hindus, you people practise Hinduism ONLY, even if you want to call it by different names like Isckon or what you will. It is disgusting to watch people steal all the ideas from Hinduism, yet not give credit and worse still, praise a totally irrelevant character like Jesus????? If it wasn't for Hinduism with its vedanta, shaivism, vaishnavism, yoga and sankhya, HK wouldn't have been born to begin with. Everything you people do is stolen from Hinduism only, accept that instead of jesus and his myth!!!