anadi Posted October 10, 2003 Report Share Posted October 10, 2003 The following article will examine, one by one, the points made in some paper, in the light of scriptural evidence and the statements of Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada himself. Statements of that person in the position paper will be referred to as OBJECTIONS, and ours as REFUTATION. OBJECTION 1: Srilala Prabhupada repeatedly warned about prematurely hearing descriptions of madhurya-lilA, the intimate pastimes KRSNa enjoys with the gopis. Srila Narayana Maharaja speaks openly about these topics. REFUTATION 1: “The policy should be that the people may not understand the gopis like ordinary girls. You should be careful to present the gopis. It does not mean that ‘We shall not utter even the name of gopis. We have taken vow to boycott the gopis.’ No. They are our worshipable devotees. How we can avoid them?” (Srila PrabhupAda’s Discussion in Boston:December 24, 1969) “The deity worship must be continued by everyone. Another secret of success is that when one is very much sexually disturbed, he should think of Lord KRSNa’s pastimes with the gopis, and he will forget his sex urge. To think of KRSNa’s pastimes with the gopIs, but not to try to imitate.” (Srila PrabhupAda’s Letter to Hayagriva: November 8, 1968, Los Angeles) “The Lord is so merciful that He Himself descends to take the fallen souls back home to the kingdom of Godhead, where the erotic principles of Godhead are eternally relished in their real form, distinct from the perverted sexual love so much adored and indulged in by the fallen souls in their diseased condition. The reason the Lord displays the rAsa-lila is essentially to induce all the fallen souls to give up their diseased morality and religiosity, and to attract them to the kingdom of God to enjoy the reality. A person who actually understands what is the rAsa-lila will certainly hate to indulge in mundane sex life.” (Sri Caitanya-caritAmRta, Adi-lila 4.31) Source: Our gurus: "One in siddhanta one at heart" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2003 Report Share Posted October 10, 2003 "You should be careful to present the gopis." this means you shouldn't present them and their position and lilas if you are not expert. otherwise you will misinform and give misguided misinterpretations creating a class of sahajiyas who take raganuga bhakti as some mental creation accessible by anyone regardless of their learning, while in fact raganuga has nothing to do with creating a mental state,it is something that is not acquired,not forcibly by your desire or by constant repetition or hearing of rasa lila, it is the stage of bhakti which is given to the individual by God, when you are ready your eternal rasa is revealed to you by God, at that stage REAL raganuga is begun, not before, it is simply your intimate relationship with God,not your mental concoction for ego inflated sense of importance, it is not anything but actual reciprocal rasa with Radha Krsna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted October 11, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2003 Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami PrabhupAda himself spoke about the gopis – even with new people. There is no fault in this. One such conversation was even published and distributed en masse, and it is presented herein: Bob : Does he (the devotee) keep his individual likes and dislikes? Srila Prabhupada : Yes, he keeps everything. But he gives preference to Krishna. Krishna says positively, “I like these things.” So we have to offer to Krishna what He likes, and then we’ll take prasAda. Krishna likes Radharani. Therefore all the gopis are trying to push Radharani to Krishna. “Krishna likes this gopi. All right, push Her forward.” That is Krishna consciousness. Bob : Is Krishna attractive to rascals? Srila Prabhupada : Oh, yes! He was the greatest rascal also. Bob : How is that? Srila Prabhupada : [laughing] Because He was always teasing the gopis. Shyamasundara : Teasing? Srila Prabhupada : Yes. Sometimes, when Radharani would go out, Krishna would attack Her, and when She would fall down – “Krishna, don’t torture Me in that way” – They would fall down, and Krishna would take the opportunity and kiss Her. [He laughs.] So, Radharani was very pleased, but superficially Krishna was the greatest rascal. Unless rascaldom is in Krishna, how could it be existent in the world? (Perfect Questions Perfect Answers: Ch. 1, Krishna the All-Attractive) Source: Our gurus: "One in siddhanta one at heart" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted October 11, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2003 A materialist would say don't pay any attention to your critics don't even ignore them. But the critics of a vaishnava are vaishnavas friends. My dilema is that I am not a vaishnava. But I know I'll be one. ASA-bandhaH ! kSantir avyartha-kalatvaM viraktir mana-SUnyata ASA-bandhaH samutkaNTha nAma-gAne sadA-ruciH Asaktis tad-guNakhyAne pritis tad vasati-sthale ity Adayo ’nubhAvAH syur jata-bhavaNkure jane Bhakti-rasamRta-sindhu(1.3.25.6) Thank you that you care for me. Also thank you for the wonderful explanations on ragAnuga sadhana bhakti. Krishna said to Kutila, Oh, although your eyes are so nice as the eyes of a snake, your nose is so nice as the nose of a frog, and your waist so wonderful as that of a mridanga, it is only my misfortune that when I play my flute, you are not attracted at all... It is only my misfortune that I let you think, that I think, I would be a vaishnava. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2003 Report Share Posted October 11, 2003 "Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami PrabhupAda himself spoke about the gopis – even with new people." so are you saying that because Prabhupada did something that means anybody else can do the same thing ? The difference between Prabhupada and say , the average person, is that Prabhupada was qualified to give discourse on Vraja lila, this doesn't mean that you should ignore the instructions of the acaryas ,including Prabhupada, when they warn about trying to prematurely artificially attempt to mimic them, What an acarya is able to do is give discourse based on realization, those without realization of those topics are warned not to dwell on them or attempt to give instructions about the intimate aspect of raganuga, simply repeating words with deeper conotations then you are able to grasp is a waste of time, and can result in the misunderstanding of the true import, leaving speaker and audience misguided . "In Srimad Bhagavatam it is stated that if one approaches the Supreme Lord even out of lust, anger or fear (kamam krodham bhayam) he is purified (Bhag. 10.29.15). The gopis, being young girls, approached Krsna because He was a beautiful young boy. From an external point of view, they approached the Lord out of lust, and the Lord danced with them at midnight. From a mundane point of view, these activities may appear immoral because a married or unmarried young girl cannnot leave home to mix with a young boy and dance with him. Although this is immoral from the mundane viewpoint, the activitie of the gopis are accepted as the highest form of worship because it was Lord Krsna whom they approached with lusty desires in the dead of night. But these things cannot be understood by nondevotees. One must understand Krsna in tattva (tuth). One should use his common sense and consider that if simply by chanting Krsna's holy name one is purified, how then can the person Krsna be immoral? Unfortunately, mundane fools are accepted as educational leaders and are offered exalted posts for teaching irreligious principles to the general populace. This is explained in Srimad Bhagavatam (7.5.31): andha yathandhair upaniyamanah. Blind men are trying to lead other blind men. Due to the immature understanding of such rascals, common men should not disucuss Krsna's pastimes with the gopis. A nondevotee should not even discuss His stealing sweet rice form His devotees. It is warned that one should not even think about these things. Although Krsna is the purest of the pure, mundane people, thinking of Krsna's pastimes that appear immoral, themselves become polluted. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu therefore never publicly discussed Krsna's dealings with the gopis. He used to discuss these dealings only with three confidential friends. He never discussed rasa-lila publicly, as professional reciters do, although they do not understand Krsna or the nature of the audience. However, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu encouraged the public chanting of the holy name on a huge scale for as many hours as possible. - Srila A. C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad (Purport, Sri Caitanya Caritamrta, Madhya 4.134) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted October 12, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 Since 1970, PrabhupAda’s disciples and followers have been distributing rAsa-lila in the Krishna book to literally millions of nondevotees. In most of his books there are hundreds of beautiful references to the pastimes of Krishna and the gopis. In the Caitanyacaritamrita,for example, which Prabhupada ordered [in a 1974 letter to Jadurani dasi] to be distributed to all classes of men, Lord Caitanya is taking maha-prasada of Lord Jagannatha. In that chapter there are several verses about the nectar of Krishna’s lips. In the mood of Srimati Radharani and the gopis, Mahaprabhu says: “Thereupon, the flute said angrily to Me, ‘Give up Your shame, fear and religion and come drink the lips of Krishna. On that condition, I shall give up my attachment for them. If You do not give up Your shame and fear, however, I shall continuously drink the nectar of Krishna’s lips. I am slightly fearful because You also have the right to drink that nectar , but as for the others, I consider them like straw.” (Sri Caitanya-caritAmRta, Antya-lila 16.127) Source: Our gurus: "One in siddhanta one at heart" PS Fie upon the wretched life which affords one only misery. To live is to experience nothing but disease and pain. Pursuing in turn religion, wealth and pleasure, one endeavors much but receives little happines. While everything leads to salvation, that is an impossible goal to achieve. Those who desire riches suffer, while those who have riches suffer even more. Alas why do I live? Source The mourn of a brahmin (Mahabharata) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 There is a small incident to explain that Krishna is pure Brahmachari and His activities with Gopis are basically the Union of Jeevathma with Paramathma. He wanted world to know this and out of which He Himself confused Naradha Muni so that Naradha would try to find out the actual reason. Once Naradha saw Krishna dancing with the Gopis at the banks of river Yamuna. Naradha asked Him, How come you teach about Brahmacharyam to others while you are not like that and happily playing with these young girls. Krishna said, if you have doubts in my brahmacharyam, go and ask Yamuna to give way to you because a pure Brahmachari asked her to give way. Naradha was very much confused and with little suspicion He went and asked Yamuna to give way on behalf of Krishna as a Brahmachari. Immediately she gave way for him. Naradha wondered with Lord's activity and asked Him for explanation. Krishna explained the Paramathma-Jeevathma Philosophy to him. Anyone is entitled to play with Him with pure love in mind towards Him and His love for us out of mercy cannot be compared with mundane physical love of the creatures. For anyone who does not understand Krishna would think that Krishna was a playboy and thats why normally well learned people never talk about His pasttimes to people who find difficult to understand. (It irritates me to read the word rascal for Krishna even though it is mentioned out of love for Him). But I feel its necessary to explain in easy way for even ordinary people to understand Him so that it would elevate the spirituality level in ordinary mind also. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 where is that story found in shastra ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 I did not read this, but heard it in a katha kalatshepam in Vaishnava temple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Just playing Devil's advocate here... Isn't it a type of hypocrisy? When the Vaishnavas condemn the breached in modestry and chastity, but the past time of Krishna and Radharani shows so intimate and have some "urge" in it. It's like - Follow what I say but do not follow what I do. Angekela (soryy, forgot my password) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 for this reason, these pastimes are the last year of the university.... if we do not study what's there before, we do not understand the transcendental nature of radha-krsna and we see them as ordinary materialist persons... so, it is not possible to give a fast answer, if we are really interested we have to study from the beginning under the direction of a pure teacher chanting hare krishna and following sadhana.. gita and krsna book srimad bhagavatam from 1st canto and nectar of devotion c.charitamrita ... it is not possible to give an answer only on cultural basis because we would have to explain them as material or we have to speak only by blind faith.. there is a class of NarayanaMaharaja in this forum who says that if we had a glimpse of the presence of Radharani, our body won't bear it... if we are neophytes it is possible only to understand some basics.. we are not this body, god is a person, and so on yasoda nandana dasa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted October 13, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 The pastimes of KRSNa with the gopis are not all on the same level .Certain very intimate or apparently sensual pastimes should not be disclosed publicly. Most of the lectures of Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja are posted on the internet for all to read. All the recordings of the lectures are also available from his tape ministry on request. Almost all of Srila Maharaja’s lectures are on the subjects of Dhruva Maharaja, Prahlada Maharaja, AmbariSa Maharaja and the first eight Slokas of Nectar of Instruction – carefully explaining the purports of Srila BV Svami Prabhupada. The readers of this paper are also invited to themselves to our internet mailing list (send a blank message to bvnmharikatha-@), on which transcriptions of lectures by Srila Narayana Maharaja appear. It is true that sometimes the lectures of Srila Narayana Maharaja deal with subject matters that may be considered elevated from the perspective of a novice. This is because most of the devotees who comprise the audience of Srila Narayana Maharaja have been devotees for twenty years or more. It goes without saying that a student cannot stay in primary school until the age of thirty. It is also true that Srila Narayana Maharaja has spoken on elevated, confidential texts such as Sri Vilapakusumanjali, on the request of certain senior ISKCON leaders and gurus such as His Holiness Tamala-krishna Maharaja, His Holiness Giriraja Maharaja, His Holiness Sivarama Swami, His Holiness Dhanurdhara Swami, His Grace Bhürijana Prabhu, Partha-sarathi Prabhu and others. However, these classes were conducted selectively and in private – not in public. Source: Our gurus: "One in siddhanta one at heart" PS Dear Devil's advocate agelika One thinks that he is the doer because he is not under guidance. One thinks she is the preacher because she hasn’t got a guru. If one has got the guru devatatma, she understands that she is not the speaker, but the loud-speaker of the original speaker She is in illusion about who is the preacher. One doesn’t “preach” “come to me I’ll give you divine love for the Supreme Enjoyer, but come to my guru because he is a realized soul.” Except she herself is a realized person (guru), and not even than if his guru is present in this world. That is why guru is heavy. Vaco vegam is not bhakti and not a sign of realization, but merely a condition to become a teacher (see Bhajana Rahasya by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura), and can be attached to bhakti as sanga siddha bhakti. On the other side you and I , we are not on guhyam AkhyAti pRcchati. Preaching means: come to get love! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Anadi, Even I can't figure out what you are saying to Ms. Devil's Advocate; talk of guru and electronics, sanskrit terms, and obscure book references. How will this help her? Or me? It would be better if you saved the parables for hiding the gopi bhava preaching, not for us neophytes. Don't you think? It seems as though we don't matter to you, being so low and foolish. I know that is not the case, but it seems that way, as though we were not worth your time. gHari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted October 13, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Dear Q'Hari dandavat pranama The thread is on the so called differences existing between Srila BV Svami Prabhupada and Srila BV Narayan Maharaja, propagated by some institution, up to direct acusations that Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana doesn't belong to Sriman Mahaprabhu's sampradaya, and he is preaching against His teachings. Obscure book references maybe referes to "Our gurus One in siddhanta one at heart" http://www.purebhakti.com/library/index.shtml That with Ms. Devil's Advocate is not at all important. She wanted to discreditate me, so she should understand that she and I, we have different realizations, and the most important one is that I know that I am not the preacher. And than- we cannot really comunicate guhyam AkhyAti pRcchati guhyam AkhyAti revealing to devotees one's confidential realisations concerning bhajana; pRcchati inquiring from devotees about their confidential realisations; and vaco vegam means means she would have better speak hari katha instead of acusing of deceitfulness, and by that trying to forbind me to post on this subject: "Follow what I say but do not follow what I do." How can I help her, if her mood is unfavorable? Bhakti must be anukul! in a favorable mood in a following mood anukul-yena Krishna anu Silanam. Please forgive me that I confused you. Dandavat pranama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Dear Anadi, Apologies if my previous post sounded like discrediting you, I never meant that. Actually, your words are so deep that my my fresh mind can't comprehend. I am very new to this teachings. And If you will analyse my post "Just playing Devil's advocate here..." I know something is right-favorable beyond that story but at the same time, part of my brain keeps asking, why is it so?..I can't understand the logic, I am just asking for more clarification. But you replied to me in a very transcedental(?) strange foreign words ... Now, I am convinced that you really are not a preacher for you can't explain in layman's term what this poor/low aspirant wished to hear. Also, I am not accusing you of deceitfulness, you are just so sensitive... my conscience is clear. God Bless! Angekela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Oh Q'Anada, It seems that the angel who stumbled into this thread with doubts epitomizes the difference between these two great souls' preaching attitudes. I find that humorous in a miraculous sort of way. Don't you? gHari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Angekela, My understanding has always been that these relationships between Sri Krsna and Radharani and Her hand-maidens are not physically lusty like the mundane animal attraction we might experience for one another in the material whirlpool. It is pristine, noble, beautiful and beyond our grasp. Srila Prabhupada advised that we not try to understand these pastimes until we have conquered the taste for mundane sensuous pleasures. After thirty years of celibacy, I still do not spend much time thinking about these things, for fear of offending Sri Krsna and Sri Radha. Now, perhaps it is enough to know that this pure love exists and it is wonderful. We should be happy for Them both, as Their unlimited love for one another increases inconceivably limitlessly every moment. Love beyond sex ----- who'd have thought!?!?! gHari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 This is getting ridiculous. It amazes me how utterly incapable you people are of having a productive discussion. The asking of any seemingly innocent question is almost invariably misunderstood, leading to saltiness, then retaliation, then counter-retaliation, etc. And you all supposedly come from the same Vaishnava tradition. gHari: If you don't understand something someone says, do the polite thing and ask for clarification. Stop behaving as if your inability to understand something makes it irrelevant or unimportant. Angekela: Enough of the false humility. Anadi obviously misunderstood your question (which was fairly clear to me); so just ask it again if you want it answered. And again, don't assume that your inability to understand something is a disqualification on the part of the one speaking/writing it. Anadi: Don't be so quick to get offended. Angekela was asking about why certain "pastimes" of Krishna are not meant to be emulated, when other "pastimes" of His teach dharma and proper behavior. Don't see personal attacks in every question that come your way; answer them authoritatively and learn to bear whatever comes. You reveal only weakness in your beliefs when you allow yourself to get offended, even if the other person really is offensive (which I don't think was the case with Angekela). All of you need to get off your respective high-horses and give up this "my guru is better than yours" and "my beliefs are better than yours" attitudes. A productive discussion can only take place if people are not complacent with what they know, and are prepared to evaluate the teachings of others on the basis of a commonly agreed upon set of evidence. In your case, this should be shrImad bhAgavatam, shrI bhagavad-gItA, and the corpus of gaudIya literatures. Try to be ladies and gentlemen. Instead, as an outsider looking in, all I see is people trying to maneuver to place their guru and their beliefs in the superior position. I suppose that would be ok, were it the case that it was done so in a scholarly way (by quoting evidence). But rarely is anything of substance brought up in such discussions - i.e. "you aren't really a very good preacher," or "i'm not qualified to understand that." Come on, people. If you want to argue, then be a little more attentive to your tradition's literatures and use them to make your points. All of this fanatical posturing serves no purpose other than to remind everyone else how fragmented your sampradAya is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Thanks gHari! Thanks for the explanation, I understand it better and also, I feel much better now. I got a migraine upon reading Anadi's response, it took me a while to read and tried to understand his words until the "Dancing Granny" Screen Saver appeared! (I set it to appear in 25-idle minutes!) Yes, you right right. I think only the pure-hearted and a very realized person can fully understand that story without the scent of mundane thinking. Glad to know about you achievement/service (30 years?!?) to Sri krishna and Shri Radhe. We should not only be happy for them both, they are the model of Best couple so, let's praise them! Hare Krishna! Angekela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 " how fragmented your sampradAya is. " we are speaking on going back to the spiritual world, not about the cohesion of a political party... so, you have given good advices, but every problem is practical not political or cultural. I have not the name of my sampradaya tattooed in my forehead, so if you have something better to suggest to understand krsna i am ready to listen otherwise i practise in my superfragmented gaudya vaishnava sampradaya if i cannot hear something better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Sorry Anadi. I just got carried away. I admit, I still have this false ego within me. Thanks Guest! Angekela. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Well, I guess this Guest only want to mediate to the discussions. Now I am guilty. If only I should have not joined the thread.......sorry. Angekela (I am tired of flying around, but when I decided to rest and land, I crushed into this thread and caused bad) /images/graemlins/frown.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Why would some dang city-slicker care about what us backward folk do in these here hills anyway? Hell's bells, this here thread is a goin' just fine, describin' the "Difference" in ways words never could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 You were meant to be here Angekela. All is as it should be. Making a literary reference to innocents who might not be able to hear the confidential pastimes of Sri Radha and Sri Krsna without some tinge of offence pales compared to having us here in the flesh to testify, as it were. I felt something special in your heart in your response to my explanation. I think you were meant to be here, as was I. gHari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted October 13, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Dear Q'Hari, please don't deviate from the subject. My understanding has always been that these relationships between Sri Krsna and Radharani and Her hand-maidens are not physically lusty like the mundane animal attraction we might experience for one another in the material whirlpool. It is pristine, noble, beautiful and beyond our grasp. Srila Prabhupada advised that we not try to understand these pastimes until we have conquered the taste for mundane sensuous pleasures. After thirty years of celibacy, I still do not spend much time thinking about these things, for fear of offending Sri Krsna and Sri Radha. First hearing. <font color="blue"> Don't prohibit the hearing </font color> . Srila Vishvanatha Cakravarti Thakura explains this verse (S.B. 10.33.39) in his commentary known as SArArtha-darSini: bhaktAnAm anugrahAya tAdRiSiH kritaDAH bhajate yAH SrutvA mAnuSaM deham ASrito jivaH tatparas tad viSayakaH SraddhAvAn bhaved iti kriDAntar ato vailakSaNyena madhura rasamayAH asyAH kriDAyAs tAdRSi maNi-mantra-mahauSadhAnAm iva kAcid atarky. Saktir astity avagamyate. ”The Lord performs varieties of pastimes to show favor to His devotees. Having adopted the human form of life, living entities who hear these pastimes become exclusively devoted unto the Lord. In other words, they develop firm faith in hearing the narrations of the Lord’s activities. What more shall I say about the importance of hearing lila-kathA? And this rAsa-lila, being fully imbued with madhura rasa, is eminently distinguished even from the Lord’s other pastimes. <font color="red"> Like a jewel, a mantra or a powerful medicine </font color> , this rAsa-lila is endowed with such indisputable, astonishing potency that by <font color="red"> hearing it </font color> , all persons in the human form become devoted to the Supreme Lord . Therefore, all varieties of devotees who hear the descriptions of these pastimes will become successful and obtain supreme pleasure. Can there be any question of doubt in this regard?” Once again hearing is differentiated: The pastimes of KRSNa with the gopis are not all on the same level .Certain very intimate or apparently sensual pastimes should not be disclosed publicly. Most of the lectures of Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja are posted on the internet for all to read. All the recordings of the lectures are also available from his tape ministry on request dandavat pranama Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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