Kulapavana Posted October 24, 2003 Report Share Posted October 24, 2003 I am just a simple soldier in the war with Maya. I mostly fight atheists and encourage aspiring bhaktas. Intimate pastimes of Lord Krishna are far above my level of advancement. I study the basics, and I preach the basics. I see certain things differently than Narayana Maharaja but that does not bother me enough to even think about such differences. It is simply not my flavor of service at this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted October 24, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2003 "I am just a simple soldier in the war with Maya. I mostly fight atheists and encourage aspiring bhaktas" I am just a bhakta who is practicing sadhana bhakti. Why am I practicing sadhana bhakti? kRti sAdhyA bhavet sAdhya- bhAvA sA sAdhanAbhidhA That bhakti which is accomplished through the function of the senses and by which bhAva-bhakti is obtained is called sAdhana-bhakti. Why am I practicing sadhana bhakti? Because I want to attain the goal of it! bhava. This is sadhana! The process by one attains bhava and one should know how should be the fruit of his endeavours. And if other fruits come? What than? What can I give? Not love, of course. I am just a bhakta who is practicing sadhana bhakti. sA bhaktiH sAdhana bhaktir bhAva-bhaktiH premA bhaktir iti trividhA sAdhana-bhaktiH punar-vaidhi rAgAnugA-bhedena dvividhA The uttamA-bhakti is of three types: sAdhana-bhakti, bhAva-bhakti, and prema-bhakti. SAdhana-bhakti is further divided into two,namely, vaidhi and rAgAnugA. Dear Kulapavana Prabhu I tell you this because I like you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaurasundara Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 Yes from 1st canto. No it's not from the First Canto of Srimad-bhagavatam. It is from Chapter 31 of "Teachings of Lord Caitanya." SP write - "first clen, second - meditate." And how exactly do we become "clean"? Rather, the meditation is itself the cleaning process. Your sravanam and kirtanam is itself the cause of smaranam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted October 25, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 OBJECTION 5: Srila PrabhupAda said, ‘The AcArya is not God,omniscient. He is servant of God.’ Srila Narayana Maharaja presents Srila PrabhupAda as omniscient. REFUTATION 5: Part2 One may ask why, in some statements, Srila PrabhupAda has presented an idea seemingly contrary to the statements in his books? Srila PrabhupAda writes: “Yasmin vijNAte sarvam evaM vijNAtaM bhavati. Anyone who is a devotee of the Lord knows about the Lord to some extent, and devotional service to the Lord makes him able to know everything by the grace of the Lord. ALTHOUGH A DEVOTEE MAY APPARENTLY EXPRESS HIMSELF TO BE IGNORANT, he is full of knowledge in every intricate matter.” (Srimad-BhAgavatam 3.7.8) <font color="blue"> This article is a reply to the paper entitled “ISKCON’s position on Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja” by His Grace Badri-nArAyaNa Prabhu. The following article will examine, one by one, the points made in that paper, in the light of scriptural evidence and the statementsof Srila Prabhupada himself. Statements of the ISKCON position paper will be refered to as OBJECTION, and ours as REFUTATION.</font color> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted October 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 OBJECTION 5: Srila PrabhupAda said, ‘The AcArya is not God,omniscient. He is servant of God.’ Srila Narayana Maharaja presents Srila PrabhupAda as omniscient. REFUTATION 5: Part3 “The Vedic mantras say yasmin vijNAte sarvam evaM vijNAtaM bhavati. When the devotee sees the Supreme Personality of Godhead by his meditation, or when he sees the Lord personally,face to face, he becomes aware of everything within this universe. Indeed, nothing is unknown to him. Everything within this materialworld is fully manifested to a devotee who has seen the Supreme Personality of Godhead.” (Srimad-BhAgavatam 8.6.9) One may ask why, in some statements, Srila PrabhupAda has presented an idea seemingly contrary to the statements in his books? Duryodhana-guru: So in other words that means the pure devotees can be omniscient? PrabhupAda: Everything. God is omniscient, so a pure devotee can become omniscient by the grace of God. (Morning Walk in Los Angeles: June 8, 1976) <font color="blue"> This article is a reply to the paper entitled “ISKCON’s position on Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja” by His Grace Badri-nArAyaNa Prabhu. The following article will examine, one by one, the points made in that paper, in the light of scriptural evidence and the statementsof Srila Prabhupada himself. Statements of the ISKCON position paper will be refered to as OBJECTION, and ours as REFUTATION. </font color> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 Jayädvaita: Because we see... For instance, sometimes the äcärya may seem to forget something or not to know something, so from our point of view, if someone has forgotten, that is... Prabhupäda: No, no, no. Then... Jayädvaita: ...an imperfection. Prabhupäda: That is not the... Then you do not understand. Äcärya is not God, omniscient. He is servant of God. His business is to preach bhakti cult. That is äcärya. Jayädvaita: And that is the perfection. Prabhupäda: That is the perfection. Hare Krsna. Jayädvaita: So we have a misunderstanding about what perfection is? Prabhupäda: Yes. Perfection is here, how he is preaching bhakti cult. That’s all. Conv. Apr. 8, 1975 Mayapura Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haridham Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Well once PRabhupad was giving a lecture somewhere in India and he mentioned about the fact that we shoudnt talk about the intimate pastimes of Krsna, Radha and the gopis. Afterwards he and some of his disciples were in his room when an Indian couple came into his room and took his darshan. They immidiatly wanted to know about the intimate pastimes of the gopis but Prabhupad said that these pastimes are very confidential and people in Kaliyuga arent qualified to hear them. THey said We are qualified, we want to know. Prabhupad just humbely said You might be qaulified to hear them but I am not qualified to tell you them. We should take the example of Prabhupad and realise that people who hear this pastimes will compare them to their mundane life and act them out. Many people are lusty and they mistake that for love. We should just serve krsna rather then want to or demand to know or understand He, Radharani and the gopis intimate pastimes. THere is no need. What if I went up to someone and asked them or inquired about their relationship with their wife when they go to bed or how many times they get intimate and whats involved and such. Its just none of our bussiness. Ofcourse I am just speaking from my point of view on this and no sastric evidance and such. Just my mundane jibber jabber. Hare Krsna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaurasundara Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 We should take the example of Prabhupad and realise that people who hear this pastimes will compare them to their mundane life and act them out. Many people are lusty and they mistake that for love. vikrIDitaM vraja-vadhUbhir idaM ca viSNoH |zraddhAnvito yaH zRNuyAd atha varNayed vA || bhaktiM parAM bhagavati parilabhya kAmaM | hRd-rogam Azv apahinoty acireNa dhIraH || (Bhag. 10.33.39) “One who faithfully hears or describes the loving sports of Sri Krishna and the young maidens of Vraja will quickly drive away the heart-disease of lust, become sober, and attain supramundane devotion of the Lord.” However, kintu rahasya-lIlA tu pauruSa-vikAravad indriyaiH pitR-putra-dAsa-bhAvaiz ca nopAsyA svIya-bhAva-virodhAt | rahasyatvaM ca tasyAH kvacid alpAMzena kvacit tu sarvAMzeneti jJeyam || - Bhakti-sandarbha Anuccheda 338 “However, these secret sports are not to be worshiped by those who experience male transformations in their senses, or by those who are in the moods of father, son and servant, for it would be contrary to their moods. Confidentiality is understood according to the partial or complete touching of limbs.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Prakrta-rasa-sata-dusani (A Hundred Warnings Against Mundane Mellows) by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada sri sri guru-gauranga-gandharvika-giridharebhyo namah anartha na gele sisya jata rati bole na anartha visita sisye rasa tattva bole na "The disciple is never said to have developed deep devotional attachment (rati) as long as impediments (anarthas) are not removed. The disciple who is still contaminated with these impediments is never taught the science of intimate devotional mellows (rasa-tattva)." asakta komala sraddhe rasa katha bole na anadhikarire rase adhikara deya na "A devotee should never speak on the topics of devotional mellows to one who has weak, pliable faith. A devotee should never attempt to bestow the qualification for rasa upon one who is unqualified to receive it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 ***No it's not from the First Canto of Srimad-bhagavatam. It is from Chapter 31 of "Teachings of Lord Caitanya." Needs learn - 1st canto, then 2 canto, then 3 canto...then 10 canto. You understand - gaunas - demigods -vaikunha- then santa Goloka- then gopi manjari deha. ) You know Lord Brahma? *** how exactly do we become "clean"? Rather, the meditation is itself the cleaning process. Yes, but medidate on rasa lila needs be cleen. SP write - first cllen, then meditate ( on rasa lila). If they meditate not clan, then other peoples see this. Only small boys go for this "madhurya". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 ***THey said We are qualified, we want to know. ***Prabhupad just humbely said You might be qaulified to hear them but I am not qualified to tell you them. nice. I am print late artikle about this theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 ***"The disciple is never said to have developed deep devotional attachment (rati) as long as impediments (anarthas) are not removed. The disciple who is still contaminated with these impediments is never taught the science of intimate devotional mellows (rasa-tattva)." asakta komala sraddhe rasa katha bole na anadhikarire rase adhikara deya na "A devotee should never speak on the topics of devotional mellows to one who has weak, pliable faith. A devotee should never attempt to bestow the qualification for rasa upon one who is unqualified to receive it." Nice. They do some meditation, and they disciples learn some sraddha on "madhurya". It is not bona fide. Then disciples be weak in spiritual life. They know - me guru best - i am stay most high position. It is populism, play in ego peoples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted October 27, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 OBJECTION 5: Srila PrabhupAda said, ‘The AcArya is not God,omniscient. He is servant of God.’ Srila Narayana Maharaja presents Srila PrabhupAda as omniscient. REFUTATION 5: Part4 Being a one hundred percent KRSNa conscious personality, Srila Prabhupäda has all eight mystic perfections. This means he can even reach out and take a fruit from another planet. This is confirmed in many places in SAstra, including the following verse and purport: “My Lord! Everything that is mysterious is known to you because you worship the creator and destroyer of the material world and the maintainer of the spiritual world, the original Personality of Godhead, who is transcendental to the three modes of material nature.” PURPORT A person who is cent-percent engaged in the service of the Lord is the emblem of all knowledge. Such a devotee of the Lord in full perfection of devotional service is also perfect by the qualification of the Personality of Godhead. As such, the eightfold perfections of mystic power (aSTa-siddhi) constitute very little of his godly opulence. (Srimad-BhAgavatam 1.5.6) <font color="blue"> This article is a reply to the paper entitled “ISKCON’s position on Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja” by His Grace Badri-nArAyaNa Prabhu. The following article will examine, one by one, the points made in that paper, in the light of scriptural evidence and the statementsof Srila Prabhupada himself. Statements of the ISKCON position paper will be refered to as OBJECTION, and ours as REFUTATION. </font color> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaurasundara Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 I don't see any problem in Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's teaching here. This is siddhanta. "The disciple is never said to have developed deep devotional attachment (rati) as long as impediments (anarthas) are not removed. The disciple who is still contaminated with these impediments is never taught the science of intimate devotional mellows (rasa-tattva)." According to Rupa Gosvami, the stage of rati is attained after the stage of anartha-nivritti anyway. It is obvious that one cannot attain rati without first undergoing anartha-nivritti. As a side-note, what is anartha-nivritti and how long does it last? Srimad Visvanatha Cakravarti clearly states that anarthas may be present in the advanced devotee until he attains the stage of prema. So really, it is possible to be in rati yet still contain anarthas, if only they are in a subtle form. First, how are anarthas removed? That has already been answered in my previous post; contemplate the sublime sweet sacred lilas of Sri Krishna. "A devotee should never speak on the topics of devotional mellows to one who has weak, pliable faith. A devotee should never attempt to bestow the qualification for rasa upon one who is unqualified to receive it." Again, there is no problem here. This is on a par with the ninth offence againt the holy name. If this is considered to be an offence against only the name, then how much more should we be careful about the lilas, forms, qualities, and so on, about Krishna. Ultimately, every devotee risks committing the ninth offence every time he attempts to preach or sell a book on the street. And as stated by Srila Jiva Gosvami in my last post, a person with "weak plaible faith" and who is likely to suffer adverse reactions to Krsna-lila should not bother to inquire about it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaurasundara Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 ***No it's not from the First Canto of Srimad-bhagavatam. It is from Chapter 31 of "Teachings of Lord Caitanya." Needs learn - 1st canto, then 2 canto, then 3 canto...then 10 canto. Funny, this is for reading Srimad-bhagavatam. I am not reading Srimad-bhagavatam, I am reading TLC. You know Lord Brahma? No, I have never met him personally. Only small boys go for this "madhurya". Then unfortunately, you are a "small boy" according to your own standards. Throughout Srila Prabhupada's books, he only preaches that madhurya-bhava is the topmost level of realization. More than that, it is the sacred gift of Mahaprabhu in only this Kali-yuga. Why should only small boys get it? Everyone should get it! /images/graemlins/grin.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted October 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 A person may see some contradictory statements by acaryas. And according his level of understanding, will accept some and reject the others as false. Those bhaktas on the level of dIKSAsti cet praNatibhiS ca bhajantam iSam being endowed with the correct understanding of reality and illusion, performs bhajana in accordance with the VaiSNava conventions; Isam Sri BhagavAn; cet if; asti he has; dikSA accepted initiation from a qualified guru; (and) labdhy. having obtained; Ipsita saNga the association for which one hankers (the association of a topmost devotee whose heart is established in the particular mood of service to Sri RAdhA-KRSNa for which one aspires and who is affectionately disposed towards oneself); they understand that sometimes acarya gives circumstancial explanations according the understanding of his disciple. As I remember back in 1996 even Iskcon released some instruction on this theme acknowledging that the statements made in personal discussion have the less priority in understanding controversial issues, than the letters, the lectures, than the books, and even from the books, the highest evidence is given in SB and CC. If Srila Prabhupada is not omniscient, if he cannot hear us at any time or any place, what would be the use of praying to him ? What would be the use of reciting the mantras for offering bhoga in front of his picture, if he is not present in his picture? Even demigods such as the gods of air, fire, water and others, who are insignificant in comparison to Srila PrabhupAda, all witness the events of this world. This is described in Srimad-Bhagavatam. Sri KRSNa has personally confirmed that “sarva deva mayo guruH – the guru is the embodiment of the sum-total of all the demigods.” “GuruSu nara-matir /yasya vA nAraki saH – one who considers the spiritual master to have the consciousness of a mortal being is a resident of hell.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuralidharDas Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 quote: <blockquote> As a side-note, what is anartha-nivritti and how long does it last? Srimad Visvanatha Cakravarti clearly states that anarthas may be present in the advanced devotee until he attains the stage of prema. So really, it is possible to be in rati yet still contain anarthas, if only they are in a subtle form. </blockquote> adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sango 'tho bhajana-kriya tato 'nartha-nivyttih syat tato nistha asaktis tato bhavas tatah premabhyudancati sadhakanam ayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah (Cc Madhya 23.14-15) see http://www.vaisnava.com/sgm_dma.html for an explanation of these verses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted October 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 When devotees pray, “nama oM viSNu-pAdAya...” PrabhupAda, who is not physically present before them, is hearing them. What would be the use of all our songs and prayers which we have received from our previous AcAryas if he is not omniscient? What would be the use of our guru-gAyatri mantra? It is not an empty ritual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 you are missing the point anadi. the mantras are for us, not for our guru, to hear and become absorbed in devotion. this is cretainly no empty ritual. Krishna is the Paramatma, not our guru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted October 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 you are missing the point anadi. the mantras are for us, not for our guru A mantra has a deity inside. So when you are saying a mantra you are praying to the deity of that mantra. Accordingly the deity of the guru gayatri mantra is the guru that gave you this mantra, and by the realization of this mantra you will see the transcendental form of your gurudeva. For the gurus that are preaching anarpita-carim cirat karunayavatirnah kalau samarpayitum unnatojjvala-rasam sva-bhakti-Sriyam it might be understood that their form is like in this prayer: radha sanmukha samSkatim sakhi sanga nivasinim tam aham satatam vande guru rupam parmam sakhim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 it is Krishna who hears our prayers as the Supersoul. if, at some point, He choses to alert our guru in order to facilitate a special guru-disciple exchange, He does so as He sees fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 Yes that is the difference and it is a major one in terms of being omniscient as God is omniscient. Krsna can make His devotee as all knowing as he wishes. He brings certain souls to a their proper guide and facilitates the relationship. But that does not means that devotees know what every living being in all universes, material and spiritual is praying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 it is Krishna who hears our prayers as the Supersoul. Yes, yes, and in guru gayatri mantra? I think, you didn't take dikSa. dIKSAsti cet praNatibhiS ca bhajantam iSam and if, maybe not from bhajana-vijNam ananyam anya- NindAdi Sunya-hRdam and if. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 from anadi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govindaram Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 in a lecture of srila prabhupada he says we can't even control our sences (live by 4 regs) and here are ppls trying to undersatnd radha-krishna! too funny! sorry had to throw that in. hari bol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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