Guest guest Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 I don't think anyone is proposing that Supersoul (Ksirodaksayi Visnu) does not hear our prayers. Of course He does. The question is, does our Spiritual Master hear our prayers. There are gradations of spiritual masters. However, I think the discussion has been about nitya siddha gurus, of the caliber of Srila Prabhupada. It has always been my understanding that when I pray to Srila Prabhupada or to a previous Acarya or to the 6 Goswamis, that they do indeed hear our prayers, and reciprocate accordingly, based upon our faith and sincerity. We are advised by Srila Rupa Goswami to recite prayers of previous Acharyas. Srila Prabhupada has given us many prayers from Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur and Srila Narottama das Thakur. I have yet to see any prayers directed towards Supersoul. Supersoul hears, He is the witness. But our process is receive the mercy of the Vaishnavas, to become das dasanudas. Srila Prabhupada can appear in the dreams of his disciples, and he has said as much himself. What if several disciples have dreams of Srila Prabhupada at the same time. Clearly Srila Prabhupada can be at several places at the same time. Perhaps even millions of places. Narada Muni can expand himself 16,108 times for the purpose of witnessing Lord Krsna's pastimes in Dwaraka with each His wives. Surely Srila Prabhupada can be in many places at once, even if our eyes are not yet purified to see. So why not when prasad is being offered to him? If he's personally present in his books, why not in his picture while a disciple is offering prasad? This is called acintya. Inconceivable. Beyond our mind and senses to comprehend. Faith is required. Srila Prabhupada is acintya. He may not be omniscient in the same sense that Maha-Visnu is omniscient, but he is omniscient in regards to his sincere disciples and in service to Krsna. A question: was Lord Chaitanya omniscient? He played the part of a devotee. He was Radha-Krsna combined. Yet his only meditation was upon Krsna. He did not like it when someone addressed him as the Supreme Lord. He was enacting a lila, and for the most part, forgot his identity as God, and was absorbed in the mood of the servant of God, always chanting Krsna's names and displaying ecstatic symptoms. Acintya. Krsna Himself can lose his omniscience for the sake of lila, and His pure devotee can become omniscient for the sake of saving the fallen conditioned souls. How wonderfully inconceivable. Anyway, I think some of the confusion lies in the fact that there are gradations of Gurus. There are many Gurus who are surely dedicated souls, but who may not be fully realized and achieved perfection. In these cases, perhaps it is Supersoul only, who hears. A pure devotee however, his body is cintamani. All of his senses can perform the functions of all the other senses, as described in Sri Brahma Samhita. He can hear with his eyes, and eat with his ears. Acintya. Srila Prabhupada once said that he is in the hearts of all his disciples. He wasn't referring to Supersoul. Yes, Supersoul is there, but so is Srila Prabhupada. Our hearts are like altars. A typical altar is not limited to just one personality. Usually, for Gaudiya Vaisnavas, an altar will contain Deities or pictures of Radha Krsna, as well as our Guru, and even our grandfather Gurus as well, (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, Srila Gaura Kishor das Babaji, etc.) If we make our hearts clean like as we would with our altars, then surely there is room there for not only Supersoul, but Srila Prabhupada, Krsna, Radharani, Lord Caitanya, Lord Nityananda, and so on. hari bol, Bhakta Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 Bhakta Dan, I haven't heard anyone suggest one's guru can't hear his disciples prayers. Perhaps I missed it. Krsna can indeed empower His devotee to hear anything He likes. The difference is the same Supersoul hears the prayers of everyliving being. That is an unlimited number. Prabhupada is not hearing every prayer prayed to God. Supersoul does. That's the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 Anadi prabhu, I do not think I'm qualified to go deeper into this subject of guru mantra. what I presented is the general understanding. I respect your view and see nothing wrong for a devotee to think like you do on this issue. Hare Krishna! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 Bhakta Don, I have not run across shastric quotes that fully support your position, but that is not all that relevant. the idea is to glorify a spiritual master, not to dwell on his limitations. Narada Muni's expansion was facilitated by Krishna for this particular pastime, and certainly Lord Krishna can give all facility to Srila Prabhupada. Do not be preoccupied with "gradation of guru power" issue. that power (as all power) comes from Krishna and is dispensed by Him as needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaurasundara Posted October 29, 2003 Report Share Posted October 29, 2003 What does this prove? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaurasundara Posted October 29, 2003 Report Share Posted October 29, 2003 I have some thoughts on what Bhakta Dan wrote. If we pray to a previous Acharya, say Srila Bhaktivinoda, then is it Srila Bhaktivinoda himself who hears/responds to the prayer (vyasti-guru), or is it the samasti-guru who hears/responds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2003 Report Share Posted October 29, 2003 Theist, You mentioned that you hadn't heard anyone mention that one's guru can't hear the disciples prayers. I was responding to Kulapavana's seemingly definitive statement: "it is Krishna who hears our prayers as the Supersoul." And also in his other post: " the mantras are for us, not for our guru, to hear and become absorbed in devotion." I do agree with you that the Guru (if so empowered) hears all prayers offered to him. It wouldn't be necessary for him to hear all prayers from all souls, as Supersoul does, since he is primarily concerned with the disciples in his care. Kulapavana, You instructed me not to be "preoccupied with gradation of guru power issue", and not to dwell on the Guru's limitations. (???) I'm not quite sure what prompted these remarks. I think my point was clear. I took it that you were saying that the disciple says prayers for the disciple, and that Supersoul hears, not Guru. I may have misunderstood you what you were trying to say, or perhaps you have changed your stance since then but are unwilling to admit it. I don't know. Please do not put words in my mouth that I am preoccupied with "guru power issues." I think any honest devotee would acknowledge that there are gradations of Gurus. My point was that a nitya siddha Guru, an uttama adhikari, can be omniscient, at least as it relates with his disciples. A less advanced devotee, acting in the capacity of Guru, may not yet have that capacity. I did not say this to start any "my guru is better than your guru" war. Just trying to add something to the discussion, food for thought, to help resolve any misunderstandings about the omniscience of the Guru. But instead of appreciating my words, you seem to have taken some umbrage, and have felt the need to admonish me to some degree. By the way, do you really need sastric quotes from me to support my position, regarding Narada Muni, Srila Prabhupada appearing in his disciple's dreams, being alive and present in his books and pictures, and being capable of hearing our prayers and accepting our offerings to him? I would think that this is common knowledge, unless of course you are not a follower of Srila Prabhupada. Which is fine, as I did not enter this discussion to convert anyone to any particular camp, or even the Gaudiya Vaishnava line coming from Srila Rupa Goswami Prabhupada. To each their own. I really don't have the time to research the quotes, (sorry), and I suspect that even if I did, you would dispute them anyway, and throw some further off-the-wall accusations my way. Based upon the replies I received, I will no longer participate in this discussion. hari bol, Bhakta Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2003 Report Share Posted October 29, 2003 ***Funny, this is for reading Srimad-bhagavatam. I am not reading Srimad-bhagavatam, I am reading TLC. Then no need read about gopis ( 10 canto). This material understanding. In reply to: ***You know Lord Brahma? ***No, I have never met him personally. But meet personnaly gopis? Meet personnaly Krisna? /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif ***Only small boys go for this "madhurya". ***Then unfortunately, you are a "small boy" according to your own standards. Throughout Srila Prabhupada's books, he only preaches that madhurya-bhava is the topmost level of realization. More than that, it is the sacred gift of Mahaprabhu in only this Kali-yuga. Need follow SP and do this step by step. Needs understanding sastra step by step. Lord Caitanya NEVER do not disscuss abiut gopis. If some in level Ramananda Raya - then disscuss. If you may bath yong girl for Krisna - then disscuss. If you girl, then for you it is no problem. /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif ***Why should only small boys get it? Everyone should get it! Has manjari and has very small manjari. Learn about material world, then read CC. First read BG AND FOLLOW BG, second read SB gradually, and then read CC. If you understand CC then you understand Goswamis, in other case it is not possible. yours kailasa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2003 Report Share Posted October 29, 2003 ***If Srila Prabhupada is not omniscient, if he cannot hear us at any time or any place, what would be the use of praying to him ? SP go and look now project temple in Moscow. ( do not speak anothers about this ). He is do not speak nothing about this. But whole project may be is nice. It is me feelings. If you work for PRABHUPADA and HIS disciples, then you may connect with Prabhupada. If you serve in OTHER place you then far from Prabhupada. Prabhupada with his true disciples and grand-disciples like Bhaktivigyana Gosvami. In ISKCON you not able make show - "gopis and so on". All gopis do raganuga-preaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted October 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2003 OBJECTION 6 : Srila PrabhupAda said that harinAma-dIkSA (first initiation) is real initiation. Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja teaches that real initiation begins with brAhmaNa-dIkSA . REFUTATION 6 : Srila PrabhupAda writes: “Regarding your questions, second initiation is REAL INITIATION. First initiation is the preliminary, just to make him prepared – just like primary and secondary education. The first initiation gives him chance to become purified, and when he is actually purified, then he is recognized as a brähmaëa and that means REAL INITIATION.” (Letter to JAdurANi from New VRndAvana: September 4, 1972) <font color="blue"> This article is a reply to the paper entitled “ISKCON’s position on Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja” by His Grace Badri-nArAyaNa Prabhu. The following article will examine, one by one, the points made in that paper, in the light of scriptural evidence and the statementsof Srila Prabhupada himself. Statements of the ISKCON position paper will be refered to as OBJECTION, and ours as REFUTATION. </font color> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2003 Report Share Posted October 29, 2003 ***Srila PrabhupAda writes: “Regarding your questions, second initiation is REAL INITIATION. In another place He is write - "first initiation it ALL, NO NEED second initiation." I am has this citation. Needs some brain for understanding all contecst books SP. Understanding go in FOLLOWING SP, understanding do not rise from speculation - "if SP speak, then..." Speculative organisation. If some glory Sridhara Swami then this speculators write - "Sridhara Swami..." Speculators. "Soul not fall, then oh eeee ...soul fall". They not has any understanding. Spiritual life do not need speculation. You distribute books SP Anadi? Whot you speak aboout distribution books SP? It is most big OBJECTION. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted October 29, 2003 Report Share Posted October 29, 2003 I said: "Do not be preoccupied with "gradation of guru power" issue". That was merely a hint that we should be very careful judging and comparing the power or "superiority" of devotees acting as gurus, or exalted devotees in general. Yes, certainly there a major differences between the level of advancement of gurus but if Krishna wants your prayers to be heard and answered by a "lower grade" guru He can make it possible. Yet, we disciples have to understand that the power and position of our guru is coming from Krishna and that our guru is validated through disciplic succession. It was not my objective to admonish you or anybody else. I often see devotees entertain ideas about their gurus which are not exactly valid and lead to unrealistic expectations and sometimes grave disappointments, or worse yet: unscrupulous "gurus" abusing their "absolute" power. Trust me, I have seen it happen and the disciple's naive understanding of the guru position enabled such abuses. I appologize for any distress I might have caused by my remarks. It was unintentional. Do not be overly sensitive to replies to your posts - both good and bad. It is a debate and differences of oppinion are bound to happen. Hopefully, if we are sincere, we will learn something from such exchanges /images/graemlins/smile.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted October 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2003 I just wonder that some advanced devotees still try in this forum and in others too, to explain you something. Anyway you cannot understand. So I prefer to not address you anymore. Please have the decency to accept it. anadi krishna dasa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaurasundara Posted October 30, 2003 Report Share Posted October 30, 2003 Then no need read about gopis ( 10 canto). This material understanding. Awfully sorry, but I do not think you are in any position to tell other people what to do or judge whether their understandings are material or so on. "Judge not lest ye be judged," good advice. But meet personnaly gopis? Meet personnaly Krisna? /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif What sort of standard is this? Because I have never met Krishna or anyone else, I have no authority to speak about Them? Have you ever met Srila Prabhupada? Yes? No? If not, then you have no authority to speak about him since you never met him. It is ridiculous to say that. Need follow SP and do this step by step. It may be necessary for you to follow Srila Prabhupada, but I am not initiated by anyone so I am in a position to take instruction from any guru who is inspirational for my spiritual life. By the way, there is no law that one cannot advance if one does not follow Srila Prabhupada. Needs understanding sastra step by step. Sure. Sraddha, sadhu-sanga, bhajana-kriya. You first have faith, then you associate with devotees, then you start practising yourself. And so on. Lord Caitanya NEVER do not disscuss abiut gopis. If some in level Ramananda Raya - then disscuss. Really? And here's me thinking that Mahaprabhu was very magnanimous enough to give His supreme gift to everyone regardless of qualification, even to those who were inimical to it. If you may bath yong girl for Krisna - then disscuss. If you girl, then for you it is no problem. /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif Apa-siddhanta. Why is raganuga-bhakti not a problem for me if I am a female but it is a problem if I am male? "You are not the body." This is the first basic lesson. It is foolish to suggest that one is enabled to follow a cerain path based on gender or any other mundane qualification. Has manjari and has very small manjari. Can you kindly explain to us the difference between a manjari and a "very small manjari"? Learn about material world, then read CC. First read BG AND FOLLOW BG, second read SB gradually, and then read CC. And what makes you so sure that I have not read BG, SB and all? Speaking of which, are you in any position whatsoever to tell people what they can or cannot do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaurasundara Posted October 30, 2003 Report Share Posted October 30, 2003 If you work for PRABHUPADA and HIS disciples, then you may connect with Prabhupada. If you serve in OTHER place you then far from Prabhupada. Tripurari Swami, BA Paramadvaiti, BG Narasingha, BB Vishnu, and others, are examples of those who do not work for Prabhupada's disciples, yet they are disciples of Prabhupada who are doing good service in their own missions and having considerable success thereof. Would you propose that all of these are "far" from Prabhupada? All gopis do raganuga-preaching. When did the Gopis ever do any preaching whatsoever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaurasundara Posted October 30, 2003 Report Share Posted October 30, 2003 In another place He is write - "first initiation it ALL, NO NEED second initiation." I am has this citation. Quote it then, please. Needs some brain for understanding all contecst books SP. Well, the fact is that all Gaudiya branches consider second initiation to be the most important one as far as I know. Srila Prabhupada himself stated so in a letter. If you have a quote from Srila Prabhupada stating the opposite, then please produce it. I don't think it is fascinating to present an argument based on a quote you say you have. By the way, what's your opinion about the soul's fall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2003 Report Share Posted October 30, 2003 quote: the fact is that all Gaudiya branches consider second initiation to be the most important one as far as I know. <hr> It is wrong to say that all Gaudiya branches consider second initiation to be the most important. Kailasha is right in saying that receiving Harinama from a Vaishnava is the most important thing. In Chaitanya Bhagavata we read that when Haridas Thakura accepted the former prostitute (Mayadevi) as a disciple, he gave her Harinama but did not give not gayatri diksa. Harinama is full and complete. Receiving Harinama is considered to be the most essential aspect of initiation by Srila Sridhar Maharaj and Prabhupada Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati. In "Sri Guru and His Grace," Srila Sridhar Maharaj: says <blockquote> Srila Jiva Goswami has written that the name of Krishna is the principle thing in the gayatri mantra, there are so many other words, but the name is the most important. If the name is taken away, and replaced with some other name (that is, if someone chants the name "Deva" imagining it refers to Shiva etc.), then the whole thing will be rotten. This is the decision of Jiva Goswami. The holy name of Krishna is all in all. The holy name of Krishna is there in the gayatri mantra, and so many other words are couched there. But if Krishna's name is replaced with the name of Shiva, then the whole thing will go to Shiva. The holy name is the all important factor. The holy name of Krsna is so important that even the gayatri mantra may not be necessary. It is said, 'na ca sat kriya, na dikse na ca purascaya manadilate mantrayanam rasamat spri hanato sri krsna namatmaka': "One need not undergo all the purificatory processes, or follow the six ceremonies mentioned in the Vedas for a pious life, one need not even take initiation into gayatri mantra. If one simply chants the holy name of Krsna without offence, everything will be successful." The holy name of Krshna is the most important consideration. The gayatri mantra may not even be necessary. We accept the mantra only to help the nama-bhajan, the worship of the holy name. Otherwise it may not be necessary at all. It has been judged in such a way. The name alone can do everything for a person. It is full and complete. The mantra helps us to do away with the aparadhas, offences, and the abhasa, or hazy conception. The mantra comes to help us only so far. </blockquote> The following statement of Mahaprabhu Sri Chaitanyadev is to be remembered (quote from the book Sri Sri Prappannajivanamrtam, by Srila Sridhar Maharaj and published in 1948 with funds given by Pishima, the sister of Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada): </blockquote> namnam-akari bahudha nija-sarva-saktis tatrarpita niyamitah smarane na kalah etadrsi tava krpa bhagavan mamapi durdaivam idrsam ihajani nanuragah "O Lord, Your holy name alone bestows all the good fortune of the soul, and this is why You have revealed Your many different names such as 'Krsna' and 'Govinda.' You have offered all Your transcendental potency in your holy name, without initiating any (scriptural or philosophical) hard and fast rules and regulations, concerning time, place, or circumstance, to be observed in chanting it. Dear Lord, in this way You have given Your mercy to the living entity by making Your name so easily available, and yet, my misfortune in the form of offense (nama-aparadha) does not allow love for that merciful name to be born within my heart." </blockquote> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kailasa Posted October 30, 2003 Report Share Posted October 30, 2003 ***Awfully sorry, but I do not think you are in any position to tell other people what to do or judge whether their understandings are material or so on. "Judge not lest ye be judged," good advice. Dear friend it is advice sastra. It is autoritete path, not speculation and not sentimental concoctions. ***But meet personnaly gopis? Meet personnaly Krisna? ***What sort of standard is this? Because I have never met Krishna or anyone else, I have no authority to speak about Them? If you desire meet Krisna, then needs follow in path SB. It is gradually path. ***Have you ever met Srila Prabhupada? Yes? No? Yes. ***If not, then you have no authority to speak about him since you never met him. It is ridiculous to say that. Has SPIRITUAL science. It is SCIENCE. Spiritual life progress gradually. If you speak about gopis, then you very vell understand most "low" principles. If person not understand "low" principles, then he is no has qualification speak about gopis. Need - know gunas ( real) - knows demigods ( real) - knows vaikuntha ( real) - then Goloka. In this case Goloka real. IF know gunas ( teoretical) - knows demigods ( teoretical) - knows vaikuntha ( teoretical) - then Goloka teoretical. It is no autoritative. It is gyana. In begining gyana good, but then needs vigyana. Needs go for gunas ( real) and go forvard ( real ). Then you preachings has be power. Sat guru teach in THIS way. If you guru preach in first "rasa" it is no autoritative, it is material. ***Need follow SP and do this step by step. ***It may be necessary for you to follow Srila Prabhupada, but I am not initiated by anyone so I am in a position to take instruction from any guru who is inspirational for my spiritual life. It is you choise. and me advise for you - "Need follow SP and do this step by step." ***By the way, there is no law that one cannot advance if one does not follow Srila Prabhupada. I am not see examples. ****Needs understanding sastra step by step. ***Sure. Ok. ***Lord Caitanya NEVER do not disscuss abiut gopis. If some in level Ramananda Raya - then disscuss. ***Really? Yes. ***And here's me thinking that Mahaprabhu was very magnanimous enough to give His supreme gift to everyone regardless of qualification, even to those who were inimical to it. Vipralambha this gift. He is no speak about gopis only with qalification man. Only. Vipralambha most esotheri really, but Lord caitanya distribute her with out discrimination. Pfilosopi Madhvacaria it is step in spiritual life, if person in level vaicuntha, then one is understand this pfilosophi. Then - Goloka. Then - Brahma - Madhava, with out philosopi Madhva all is sahajiya. ***If you may bath yong girl for Krisna - then disscuss. If you girl, then for you it is no problem. ***Apa-siddhanta. Why is raganuga-bhakti not a problem for me if I am a female but it is a problem if I am male? "You are not the body." You not understand. If you female ( spiritual ) then no problem bath yong girl, like Ramananda Ray. It is example for fools who run in "madhurya". ***This is the first basic lesson. It is foolish to suggest that one is enabled to follow a cerain path based on gender or any other mundane qualification. Every may follow, but with rigth path. We not follow apa siddhanta. ***Has manjari and has very small manjari. ***Can you kindly explain to us the difference between a manjari and a "very small manjari"? I am has bad english. They small then "not serve" match, they ran after "big" manjaris, eat prasad from Radha-Krisna, because they is more innocent then for they no has big rule. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Some from them grove, some stay in this deha - small manjaris. /images/graemlins/smile.gif ***Learn about material world, then read CC. First read BG AND FOLLOW BG, second read SB gradually, and then read CC. ***And what makes you so sure that I have not read BG, SB and all? I am interesting vigyana, real realisation. If person no has big realisation but has small vigyana it is good. No needs "big realisation" teoretical, best small realisation but real - vigyan. May be you read, I am not know. /images/graemlins/smile.gif I am write in general, not concrete. ***Speaking of which, are you in any position whatsoever to tell people what they can or cannot do? You person from . com or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted October 30, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2003 In this second limb of bhakti the signifcance of the word adi attached at the end is that in the begining, to start bhakti you need dikSa and Sikza from your gurudeva. Re Hari Nama Guest Despite the autonomous potency of the flute sound of Krishna which takes the form of the Hari Nama all the previous acaryas from the past followed the second limb of bhakti Sri Krishna dikSa SikzAdi. The exceptional examples are not the rule for the conditioned jiva. <font color="blue"> "It is essential to accept dikSa and Sikza from a guru in order to gain entrance into bhagavad-bhajana. In Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.9) the following is said regarding dikSa: divyaM jnanaM yato dadyAt kuryat papasya saNkzazam tasmAd-dikSeti sa proktA deSikais tattva-kovidaiH That religious undertaking which bestows divya-jnana (transcendental knowledge) and destroys papa (sin), papa-bija (the seed of sin) and avidya (ignorance) to the root is called dikSa by learned authorities in the absolute truth. Therefore a faithful sadhaka will dedicate his entire self to the lotus feet of Sri Gurudeva, offer pranama unto him and take dikSa from him by receiving a VaiSNava mantra in accordance with the rules and regulations of the scriptures. The meaning of divya-jnana referred to above is that the jivais not a material phenomenon; the jiva is an atomic particle of spiritual consciousness belonging to the sac-cid-ananda-svarupa of Sri KRSNa. By virtue of this the jiva is nothing other than the nitya-dasa of Bhagavan. This is also stated in Cri Caitanya-caritam®ta ( Madhya-lila 20.108): “ jivera svarupa haya krsnera nitya-dasa . the svarupa or identity of the jivais to be an eternal servant of Sri KRSNa.” By the causeless mercy of the ocean of mercy sri Bhagavan or His devotees, the jiva attains sadhu-sanga. By the potency of that sadhu-sanga, the jiva offers himself at the lotus feet of sri Gurudeva. By bestowing the kRSNa-mantra, Sri Gurudeva dispels the jiva’s aversion towards the Lord ( bhagavad-vimukhata) and directs his attention towards the performance of bhagavad bhajana. He gives sambandha-jnana concerning bhagavad-tattva, jiva-tattva and maya-tattva, and awakens the dormant inclination of the jiva to serve the Lord ( bhagavad-unmukhata). As a consequence of this, the papa, papa-bija and avidya of the sadhaka are all destroyed to the root. This procedure of dikSa is not completed in one day; rather it is begun from the day of initiation. In Bhakti-sandarbha ( Anuccheda 283) Srila Jiva Gosvami has explained the meaning of divya-jnana in the following words: “ divyam jnanaM hy atra mantre bhagavat-svarupa-jnanam, tena bhagavata sambandha-viSeza-jnanaM ca. divya-jnana is transcendentalknowledge contained within a mantra that reveals the form and identity of the Supreme Lord ( bhagavat-svarupa) as well as the knowledge of the sadhaka-jiva’s particular relationship with the Lord.” Sri Gurudeva, knowing the svarupagata-bhava, or in other words the natural, inherent disposition of the sadhaka, gives nourishment to that particular mood within his heart in order to bring it clearly into view. In Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.12), quoting a statement from the Tattva-sagara, it is said: yatha kancanataM yati kaMsyaM rasa-vidhanata˙ tatha dikSa-vidhanena dvijatvaM jayate nRNam Just as bell metal is turned to gold by a particular alchemical process, a man can attain to the state of being a dvija by the process of VaiSNava dikSa." </font color> Excerpt from the commentary to the second limb of bhakti by Srila BV Narayana Maharaja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kailasa Posted October 30, 2003 Report Share Posted October 30, 2003 ***If you work for PRABHUPADA and HIS disciples, then you may connect with Prabhupada. If you serve in OTHER place you then far from Prabhupada. ***Tripurari Swami, BA Paramadvaiti, BG Narasingha, BB Vishnu, and others, are examples of those who do not work for Prabhupada's disciples, yet they are disciples of Prabhupada who are doing good service in their own missions and having considerable success thereof. Would you propose that all of these are "far" from Prabhupada? They work for their own missions, because they do not follow SP. Yes they serve some for Prabhupada but far from Prabhupada. It is right. ***All gopis do raganuga-preaching. ***When did the Gopis ever do any preaching whatsoever? Rupa-Sanatana Gosvami, all folowers Lord Caitanya preaching whatsoever. ***In another place He is write - "first initiation it ALL, NO NEED second initiation." I am has this citation. ***Quote it then, please. Ok late. ***Needs some brain for understanding all contecst books SP. ***Well, the fact is that all Gaudiya branches consider second initiation to be the most important one as far as I know. It is no principial - kiba shudra, kiba nyasi. If some not brahman - it is no has big problem. If you not has first initiation - then you not has nothing. Right? ***Srila Prabhupada himself stated so in a letter. I am ansver on this questions before. ***If you have a quote from Srila Prabhupada stating the opposite, then please produce it. I don't think it is fascinating to present an argument based on a quote you say you have. I am have, i am write because read SP. Has big "mission" hho not read SBT, not read SP only speak - "we more best, we more best" IT IS they djapa. ***By the way, what's your opinion about the soul's fall? Soul fall from spiritual world. God no needs "born" soul in material world for "grow". It material conception - "soul grow in material world". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kailasa Posted October 30, 2003 Report Share Posted October 30, 2003 ***Bhagavata we read that when Haridas Thakura accepted the former prostitute (Mayadevi) as a disciple, Yes Holy name spiritual stone, brahman initiation not so important. But if person has sucsses in repeat holy name then stay in position brahman. In this case SP write - "second initiation", but generally second initiation not principial, holy name om purnam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted October 30, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2003 Re Hari Nama Guest <font color="blue"> In Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.12), quoting a statement from the Tattva-sagara, it is said: yatha kancanataM yati kaMsyaM rasa-vidhanataH tatha dikSa-vidhanena dvijatvaM jayate nRNam Just as bell metal is turned to gold by a particular alchemical process, a man can attain to the state of being a dvija by the process of VaiSNava dikSa. By the word nRNam used in this verse, Srila Sanatana Gosvami has indicated a person who has received initiation. In other words a person who receives dikSa becomes a dvija3 or twice-born. By the word dvijatvam he has indicated that one attains to the state of a brahmaNa, or one who knows the absolute truth Brahman. The word dvijatvam used here does not mean the state of being a dvija by initiation into the sacred thread like that of the kSatriyas and vaiSyas. By the procedure of dikSa the disciple is born again. This is called birth by dikSa( daikSa-janma). There are three kinds of birth: (1) Saukra-janma. seminal birth; that is, birth by mother and father, (2) savitra-janma. a ceremony in which a boy is initiated into one of the three twice-born classes by being invested with the sacred thread and (3) daikSa-janma . birth by the process of spiritual initiation ( dikSa). Even a Sudra or an untouchable person who is born in the lowest family obtains the saMskaras for being a dvija upon being initiated in accordance with the regulations of the Pancaratra. This is the purport of the following statement from the Mahabharata ( AnuSasana-parva 143.46): etaiH karma-phalair devi nyUna-jati-kulodbhavaH SUdro ’py Agama-sampanno dvijo bhavati saMskRtaH As a result of these activities, O Goddess, even a Sudra born in a low-caste family becomes twice-born and endowed with the agama (the scripture).</font color> Excerpt from the commentary to the second limb of bhakti by Srila BV Narayana Maharaja Despite the autonomous potency of the flute sound of Krishna which takes the form of the Hari Nama all the previous acaryas from the past followed the second limb of bhakti Sri Krishna dikSa SikzAdi. The exceptional examples are not the rule for the conditioned jiva. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaurasundara Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Dear Muralidharji, I am aware that you have presented all of these examples before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaurasundara Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 It is SCIENCE. Spiritual life progress gradually. If you speak about gopis, then you very vell understand most "low" principles. If person not understand "low" principles, then he is no has qualification speak about gopis. Spiritual life certainly progresses gradually, especially as noted along the lines of Rupa Gosvami's "adau sraddha" text. However, Rupa Gosvami also specifically outlines two completely different paths to achieve the goal. These two paths are vaidhi-bhakti and raganuga-bhakti. They are two distinct paths, the practice of which will give rise to two completely different bhavas. SB 10.33.39 proves that hearing of the sports of Krishna will clear the heart of all obstacles, become sober and attain pure devotion. By the way, what makes you think that gopi-bhava is the only subject worth speaking of? Srimad Visvanatha Cakravarti writes: rAgo'tra zrI mUrter darzanAd dazama skandhIya tat tal lIlA zravaNAc ca bhajana lobhaH - "The word rAga can be used when one's worship is prompted by sacred greed after seeing the beautiful deity of the Lord or by hearing about His pastimes in the tenth canto of Zrimad BhAgavata." Therefore why whould only gopi-lila be the sole subject of consideration. Discuss the whole of the tenth canto! /images/graemlins/wink.gif Sat guru teach in THIS way. If you guru preach in first "rasa" it is no autoritative, it is material. As I said elsewhere, it may be your sat-guru who teaches in this way, but other sat-gurus teach in different ways. The key to finding the "right" way is to research which way most closely follows the path chalked out by the Six Gosvamis. In which case, no Gosvami or guru has ever preached that rasa-lila is material, to my knowledge. Those who think that rasa-lila is material are those who take it so. Listen, let's try a little bit of logic. Srila Prabhupada was specifically adamant about the fact that Krishna's romantic pastimes are to be taken as the highest exchange of love that can ever be expressed, and that they are nothing whatsoever like the troublesome, tawdry dealings that take place in the material world. As long as you view these episodes with this high understanding, what obstacles exist? ***By the way, there is no law that one cannot advance if one does not follow Srila Prabhupada. I am not see examples. OK thanks for clarifying that. Perhaps you could embark on a research trip to Sri Vrindavana-dhama or Sri Navadvipa-dhama and just see how many Gaudiya Vaishnavas exist who do not have Srila Prabhupada as their guru, and let me know what you find. Lord Caitanya NEVER do not disscuss abiut gopis. If some in level Ramananda Raya - then disscuss. The point here is that Mahaprabhu did discuss the subject of gopi-lila with Ramananda Raya. Using capitals will not change the facts. The Ramananda-samvada is one of the most inspiring and important sections of CC. And Srila Prabhupada's view of it is nicely expressed in the quote posted earlier from TLC. Vipralambha this gift. He is no speak about gopis only with qalification man. Only. Vipralambha most esotheri really, but Lord caitanya distribute her with out discrimination. On one hand you are saying that Mahaprabhu spoke about gopis with only qualified devotees, and on the other hand you are saying that Mahaprabhu distributed vipralambha-bhava without dicrimination. Do you know what vipralambha-bhava is? Pfilosopi Madhvacaria it is step in spiritual life, if person in level vaicuntha, then one is understand this pfilosophi. Then - Goloka. Then - Brahma - Madhava, with out philosopi Madhva all is sahajiya. Madhvacharya's philosophy (and Ramanuja's, for that matter) are good examples of vaidhi-bhakti. By following vaidhi-bhakti, you reach Vaikuntha. By following raganuga-bhakti, you reach Goloka. This is stated in CC, it is not sahajiya philosophy. If person no has big realisation but has small vigyana it is good. No needs "big realisation" teoretical, best small realisation but real - vigyan. Yes, and how do you attain vijnana if you do not study and practise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaurasundara Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 ***Tripurari Swami, BA Paramadvaiti, BG Narasingha, BB Vishnu, and others, are examples of those who do not work for Prabhupada's disciples, yet they are disciples of Prabhupada who are doing good service in their own missions and having considerable success thereof. Would you propose that all of these are "far" from Prabhupada? They work for their own missions, because they do not follow SP. Yes they serve some for Prabhupada but far from Prabhupada. It is right. Sorry Kailasa, but I do not agree. This is a very erratic statement and also very inflammatory. It is not correct of you to state that Tripurari Swami and the rest do not follow Srila Prabhupada. You need to broaden your horizons a little. ISKCON is not the be-all and end-all for a very large amount of people, what to speak of Gaudoya Vaishnavas as a whole. ***When did the Gopis ever do any preaching whatsoever? Rupa-Sanatana Gosvami, all folowers Lord Caitanya preaching whatsoever. Rupa and Sanatana Gosvamis were not gopis in Gaura-lila. They are gopis in Vraja-lila. In Gaura-lila they assumed the form of sadhakas and were personally empowered by Mahaprabhu Himself to elucidate the philosophy and propagate it. Three guesses what they preached. ***Well, the fact is that all Gaudiya branches consider second initiation to be the most important one as far as I know. It is no principial - kiba shudra, kiba nyasi. What does the 'kiba vipra' verse have to do with first or second initiation. Kailasa, you have quoted incorrect evidence. The 'kiba vipra' verse is related to who is qualified to be a guru, not whether second initiation is important. If some not brahman - it is no has big problem. If you not has first initiation - then you not has nothing. Right? According to what I have been hearing from non-ISKCON sources, harinama initiation is considered a blessing to begin chanting, while the actual initiation is second initiation. I believe that Narayana Maharaja has this same understanding, am I right? Anadiji? ***Srila Prabhupada himself stated so in a letter. I am ansver on this questions before. OK sorry, but I have not seen what you said then. Please reply again please, and also please try to explain in coherent English language. I know you have difficulty with English, but please try to be clear as possible. ***By the way, what's your opinion about the soul's fall? Soul fall from spiritual world. Where does it say that in the sastras? It material conception - "soul grow in material world". It is not a material conception. The sastras specifically state that the the soul's bondage is "beginningless." No attempt is made to trace out the soul's origin, which is why it is considered beginningless. So it is of no use to say they were created in the material world, because: a - they were not created b - there is no proof There is no use of saying that the soul fell from the spiritual world because: a - it is untrue b - there is no proof Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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