Guest guest Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Yes I have presented those things before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 ***Spiritual life certainly progresses gradually, especially as noted along the lines of Rupa Gosvami's "adau sraddha" text. However, Rupa Gosvami also specifically outlines two completely different paths to achieve the goal. These two paths are vaidhi-bhakti and raganuga-bhakti. No it is misundrerstanding. First sadna bhakti, second raganuga. It is one path not two. ***They are two distinct paths, the practice of which will give rise to two completely different bhavas. /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif Who teach you? Sadana it is worship vaicuntha then person go in forewer Goloka. In BRS - "nobody not come for Me with out step in santa rasa". May be person has different bhava in sadana, but it is one path. It is material - "I am follow raganuga only", it is misunderstanding. First sadana, then raganuga. ***Therefore why whould only gopi-lila be the sole subject of consideration. Discuss the whole of the tenth canto! No 10 canto disscus many sabjects. First need understand BG as it is. ***Sat guru teach in THIS way. If you guru preach in first "rasa" it is no autoritative, it is material. ***As I said elsewhere, it may be your sat-guru who teaches in this way, but other sat-gurus teach in different ways. No two ways. True guru teach sadana then raganuga. If guru teach raganuga first it is no true. You not have qualification for raganuga? you? anadi and so on. SP commentary describe real raganuga. ***The key to finding the "right" way is to research which way most closely follows the path chalked out by the Six Gosvamis. Gosvamis it is madhurya - vipralamba - acintya bheda abheda tattva - they meet Krisna - they never meet Krisna it is top spiritual life, in platform material it is no understand. Gosvamis it is not sambhoga Krisna lila, it is ONLY PART they teachings. ***In which case, no Gosvami or guru has ever preached that rasa-lila is material, to my knowledge. Those who think that rasa-lila is material are those who take it so. Rasa lila no material - you- material, needs know 9 canto - then go 10 canto. Then CC and ten you understand Gosvamis. ***Listen, let's try a little bit of logic. Srila Prabhupada was specifically adamant about the fact that Krishna's romantic pastimes are to be taken as the highest exchange of love that can ever be expressed, and that they are nothing whatsoever like the troublesome, tawdry dealings that take place in the material world. As long as you view these episodes with this high understanding, what obstacles exist? In one case it is may go lift, in another case it may degradade. If person material he is do not listen this pastimes. Logic do not needs in this questions, needs folloowing true guru-sastra. ***OK thanks for clarifying that. Perhaps you could embark on a research trip to Sri Vrindavana-dhama or Sri Navadvipa-dhama and just see how many Gaudiya Vaishnavas exist who do not have Srila Prabhupada as their guru, and let me know what you find. May be late. Only pure devotee may understand SP all. It is top, it is real way gosvamis, not sadana meditation "madhurya". If they not have taste books SP, then they not has qualification. It is true. ***Lord Caitanya NEVER do not disscuss abiut gopis. If some in level Ramananda Raya - then disscuss. ***The point here is that Mahaprabhu did discuss the subject of gopi-lila with Ramananda Raya. Using capitals will not change the facts. The Ramananda-samvada is one of the most inspiring and important sections of CC. And Srila Prabhupada's view of it is nicely expressed in the quote posted earlier from TLC. Yes, about Ramanada ray me may disscuss, no problem. ****Vipralambha this gift. He is no speak about gopis only with qalification man. Only. Vipralambha most esotheri really, but Lord caitanya distribute her with out discrimination. ***On one hand you are saying that Mahaprabhu spoke about gopis with only qualified devotees, and on the other hand you are saying that Mahaprabhu distributed vipralambha-bhava without dicrimination. Do you know what vipralambha-bhava is? Some know. It is eternal vipralambha, vipralambha Krisna lila it is "part". Vipralambha Lord Caitanya eternal emotion, no meeting. Vipralambha Krisna lila do strong meeting, but MEETING gaura lila do strong VIPRALAMBHA. Open CC and see. ***Madhvacharya's philosophy (and Ramanuja's, for that matter) are good examples of vaidhi-bhakti. By following vaidhi-bhakti, you reach Vaikuntha. By following raganuga-bhakti, you reach Goloka. This is stated in CC, it is not sahajiya philosophy. Firast sadana, second raganuga. Nobody do not able folloow raganuga in first. Yopu reach demigods, then you reach VAICUNTHA, then - Goloka. BRAHMA-Madhava. If you reach Goloka, then you understand Krisna lila Gaura lila. But mental speculations do not help, meditation help some, but meditation it is part SADANA, it is not raganuga. ***If person no has big realisation but has small vigyana it is good. No needs "big realisation" teoretical, best small realisation but real - vigyan. ***Yes, and how do you attain vijnana if you do not study and practise? Yes, agree, but real practic it is big theme. ***They work for their own missions, because they do not follow SP. Yes they serve some for Prabhupada but far from Prabhupada. It is right. ***Sorry Kailasa, but I do not agree. This is a very erratic statement and also very inflammatory. It is not correct of you to state that Tripurari Swami and the rest do not follow Srila Prabhupada. He is know svarupa SP? He is know mood SP? He is know books SP? He is stay in organisation SP? He is work some in disciples SP - yes. He is take SP like main guru? Or not? SP kind any way, but sorry it is not DIRECT following. Pls I am take me bows TS, I am only question. /images/graemlins/smile.gif ***You need to broaden your horizons a little. No, I am not impersonal. ***ISKCON is not the be-all and end-all for a very large amount of people, what to speak of Gaudoya Vaishnavas as a whole. You do not know ISKCON, all gaudia in time go in ISKCON. Now ISKCON little, then He is stay mathure. Now we only some understand SP, but we be go forward. ***Rupa-Sanatana Gosvami, all folowers Lord Caitanya preaching whatsoever. ***Rupa and Sanatana Gosvamis were not gopis in Gaura-lila. They are gopis in Vraja-lila. /images/graemlins/smile.gif How many your years? Exuse. All gopis Krisna lila preach in Gaura lila. ***In Gaura-lila they assumed the form of sadhakas Sadhakas or raganugas? /images/graemlins/smile.gif ***and were personally empowered by Mahaprabhu Yes YOU mey empowered Caitanya Mahaprabhu if be follow. ***Himself to elucidate the philosophy Yes 1 st canto, 2 canto all. ***and propagate it. Yes, anadi do not go propagate. He is raganuga may be. boys. If some raganuga he is work very hard. ***What does the 'kiba vipra' verse have to do with first or second initiation. Kailasa, you have quoted incorrect evidence. The 'kiba vipra' verse is related to who is qualified to be a guru, not whether second initiation is important. I am bring citatin for you Gaurasundara. Thanks for you discussion, forgive me. ***OK sorry, but I have not seen what you said then. Please reply again please, and also please try to explain in coherent English language. I know you have difficulty with English, but please try to be clear as possible. Ok, i am take citation. I am stady english some, i am write now only hand, following advise Jagat Prabhu. ***Where does it say that in the sastras? SP, SBT, i am may look for you. In 10 canto write this. **It is not a material conception. The sastras specifically state that the the soul's bondage is "beginningless." BONDAGE, but not born. In spiritual world no material time, then no has moment when soul enter in material world "beginningless." It is not absolute eterneties. Absolute eterneties it is soul has ETERNAL realation with God. It is ABSOLUTE eternal. It is may discuss. ***No attempt is made to trace out the soul's origin, which is why it is considered beginningless. bondage. SBT very well answer in this question. ***So it is of no use to say they were created in the material world, because: a - they were not created b - there is no proof I am not understand, late read. There is no use of saying that the soul fell from the spiritual world because: a - it is untrue b - there is no proof Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Hari-sauri: But then if everybody's being raised to the brahminical platform... Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnasrama, not everybody brahmana. Hari-sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is... Prabhupada: That is... Everybody is being raised, but they're falling down. Hari-sauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get... Prabhupada: Yes. Hari-sauri: ...brahminical initiation. After four or five years. Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a ksatriya. You'll be ha... Hari-sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then... Prabhupada: No, no. Hari-sauri: ...unless one is... Prabhupada: No, brahmana must be there. Why do you say, generalize? Hari-sauri: Unless one is particularly... Prabhupada: Yes. Hari-sauri: ...inclined. Prabhupada: Not that a sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam... He'll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly. Hari-sauri: For Krsna. Prabhupada: Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let them, let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, he'll also be as good as a brahmana. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, "Do the work of a leg," it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect. Satsvarupa: Today you've been saying that the Vaisnava is the highest, above the brahmana. But then we’ve also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaisnava. Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnava everyone, even if he's not brahmana. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that "I am servant of Krsna." Here the bodily conception is going on, "I am American,I am Indian,I am this,I am that." Actually one who takes to chanting Hare Krsna Mantra offenselessly immediately becomes situated transcendentally and therefore he has no need of being initiated with sacred thread, but Guru Maharaja introduced this sacred thread because a Vaisnava was being mistaken as belonging to the material caste. To accept a Vaisnava in material caste system is hellish consideration (naraki buddhi). Therefore, to save the general populace from being offender to a Vaisnava, He persistently introduced this sacred thread ceremony and we must follow His footsteps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted October 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 OBJECTION 7: Srila Narayana MahArAja “re-initiates” disciples of VaiSNava gurus in good standing. REFUTATION 7: Many of the so-called re-initiated devotees who were disciples of gurus in “good standing” have been criticized for taking shelter of Srila Narayana MahArAja. However, time proved them to have made the correct decision, because it was later discovered that their gurus in “good standing” had simply not yet been exposed as less than the "acaryas" they had posed themselves to be. <font color="blue"> This article is a reply to the paper entitled “ISKCON’s position on Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja” by His Grace Badri-nArAyaNa Prabhu. The following article will examine, one by one, the points made in that paper, in the light of scriptural evidence and the statementsof Srila Prabhupada himself. Statements of the ISKCON position paper will be refered to as OBJECTION, and ours as REFUTATION. </font color> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaurasundara Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 ***However, Rupa Gosvami also specifically outlines two completely different paths to achieve the goal. These two paths are vaidhi-bhakti and raganuga-bhakti. No it is misundrerstanding. First sadna bhakti, second raganuga. It is one path not two. vaidhI rAgAnugA ceti sA dvidhA sAdhanAbhidhA || (brs 1.2.5) “Practice is of two kinds, namely vaidhi and raganuga.” vaidhI-rAgAnugA-mArga-bhedena parikIrtitaH | dvividhaH khalu bhAvo’tra sAdhanAbhinivezajaH || “The paths of vaidhi and raganuga are known to be separate from each other. Engagement in these two forms of practice certainly awakens two distinct varieties of bhava.” - Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.3.7 These are Srila Rupa Gosvami's words. If you kindly insist on maintaining your position, then you are obliged to present evidence. By the way, what is sadhana-bhakti? There are two forms of sadhana-bhakti. These two forms are known as vaidhi-bhakti and raganuga-bhakti. ***They are two distinct paths, the practice of which will give rise to two completely different bhavas. /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif Who teach you? Rupa Gosvami. Sadana it is worship vaicuntha then person go in forewer Goloka. vidhi-bhaktye pArSada-dehe vaikuNThete yAya || “Through vidhi-bhakti, one will attain the form of an associate in Vaikuntha.” - CC Madhya 2.24.87 rAga-bhaktye vraje svayaM-bhagavAne pAya || “Through raga-bhakti, one will attain the Lord Himself in Vraja.” - CC Madhya 2.24.85 In BRS - "nobody not come for Me with out step in santa rasa". Where does it say that in BRS, precisely? It is material - "I am follow raganuga only", it is misunderstanding. sakala jagate more kare vidhi-bhakti |vidhi-bhaktye vraja-bhAva pAite nAhi zakti || aizvarya-jJAnete saba jagat mizrita | aizvarya-zithila-preme nAhi mora prIta || “Everyone in this world worships Me through vidhi-bhakti. Vidhi-bhakti has no power for attaining the feelings of Vraja. The devotion of the world is mixed with knowledge of My divine prowess. I do not delight in love diluted with prowess.” - CC Adi 3.15-16 ***Therefore why whould only gopi-lila be the sole subject of consideration. Discuss the whole of the tenth canto! No 10 canto disscus many sabjects. First need understand BG as it is. Dear Kailasa, my simple point was about why people are so paranoid about the Tenth Canto. There are 90 chapters in the Tenth Canto. Of these 90, only five deal with the rasa-lila or dealings with Gopis. The point here is that Srimad Visvanatha clearly states that reading of Krishna's lilas in Tenth Canto will give rise to raga. I find it incredibly queer, the paranoia that is caused whenever "Tenth Canto" is mentioned. There is a lot more to the Tenth Canto than just gopi-lila. And anyway: ZRNvatAM sva-kathAH kRSNaH | puNya-zravaNa-kIrtanaH || hRdy antaH stho hy abhadrANi | vidhunoti suhRt satAm || "Sri Krsna, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramatma [supersoul] in everyone's heart and the benefactor of the truthful devotee, cleanses desire for material enjoyment from the heart of the devotee who has developed the urge to hear His messages, which are in themselves virtuous when properly heard and chanted." - SB 1.2.17 ***As I said elsewhere, it may be your sat-guru who teaches in this way, but other sat-gurus teach in different ways. No two ways. True guru teach sadana then raganuga. If guru teach raganuga first it is no true. Unfortunaztely for you, Rupa Gosvami does not agree with your opinion. Would you propose that Rupa Gosvami is not a true guru? I think you must first understand that raganuga-bhakti is a division of sadhana-bhakti itself. There is no "sadhana" and then "raganuga." Raganuga can mean sadhana for its practitioners. Vaidhi-bhakti-sadhana, raganuga-bhakti-sadhana, and so on. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura speaks a lot about this. Have you read the books of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura? You not have qualification for raganuga? you? anadi and so on. How would you know I have no qualification to practise raganuga? Speaking of which, what are the qualifications for raganuga, does anyone know? rAgAtmikAika-niSThA ye vrajavAsi-janAdayaH | teSAM bhAvAptaye lubdho bhaved atrAdhikAravAn || (brs 1.2.291) “The very being of those who reside in Vraja is steeped in loving attachment. One who becomes greedy to attain feelings similar to theirs possesses eligibility.” kRSNa-bhakti-rasa-bhAvita-matiH | kriyatAM yadi kuto'pi labhyate || tatra laulyam api mUlyam ekalaM | janma-koTi-sukRtair na labhyate || (Padyavali 14) “Wherever that consciousness laden with rapturous loving feelings for Sri Krishna is available, from there it must be acquired. For that there is indeed only one price, greed, which cannot be attained through pious deeds even in millions of births.” The only qualification necessary for the practice of raganuga-bhakti is the sacred greed to hear about the rAgAtmika-bhAva of the VrajavAsIs. No other qualification is necessary. This is the path outlined by Srila Rupa Gosvami. SP commentary describe real raganuga. This is your opinion. "Real raganuga" has already been described by Srila Rupa Gosvami in Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu. ***The key to finding the "right" way is to research which way most closely follows the path chalked out by the Six Gosvamis. Gosvamis it is madhurya - vipralamba - acintya bheda abheda tattva. So? This is the path they have chalked out for Gaudiya sadhakas to follow. Are you proposing that one should not follow the Gosvamis? /images/graemlins/smile.gif they meet Krisna - they never meet Krisna it is top spiritual life, in platform material it is no understand. Why is it not to be understood on the material platform? Real spirituality cannot be attained on the material platform anyway, or can it? That is precisely why Sriman Mahaprabhu made His Holy Advent, so that the disillusioned souls of Kali-yuga may be able to find their way to His supreme abode by the light that He holds in His divine palms. He passed this light onto the Gosvamis. And the Gosvamis have adequately explained how one may reach the Vraja platform. Gosvamis it is not sambhoga Krisna lila, it is ONLY PART they teachings. Have you studied the works of the Gosvamis? I'll be honest here and admit that I have also not completed studying the Gosvami literature myself. However, what little I do know, I am far more inclined to accept their opinion than yours. ***In which case, no Gosvami or guru has ever preached that rasa-lila is material, to my knowledge. Those who think that rasa-lila is material are those who take it so. Rasa lila no material - you- material, needs know 9 canto - then go 10 canto. Then CC and ten you understand Gosvamis. Dear Kailasa, thousands upon thousands have proceeded to read Bhagavad-gita, Srimad Bhagavatam and then Caitanya-caritamrta. Are you saying that all of these people have a clear idea of the Gosvami's conception? Speaking of which, one deveotee recently "boasted" to me that she has read BG, SB, and is now reading CC. She was fully convinced about the sastric basis of the chanting of the holy name and was glorifying it very nicely. When I asked her what she thought of CC Adi Chapter 4, in which the reason for Mahaprabhu's advent is given as the propagation of raganuga-bhakti with nama-sankirtana as a side-effect, she didn't have a clue what I was talking about. For me, this was proof that one can simply read books without understanding what is actually written in them. ***Listen, let's try a little bit of logic. Srila Prabhupada was specifically adamant about the fact that Krishna's romantic pastimes are to be taken as the highest exchange of love that can ever be expressed, and that they are nothing whatsoever like the troublesome, tawdry dealings that take place in the material world. As long as you view these episodes with this high understanding, what obstacles exist? In one case it is may go lift, in another case it may degradade. If person material he is do not listen this pastimes. Thus, Jiva Gosvami says: kintu rahasya-lIlA tu pauruSa-vikAravad indriyaiH pitR-putra-dAsa-bhAvaiz ca nopAsyA svIya-bhAva-virodhAt | rahasyatvaM ca tasyAH kvacid alpAMzena kvacit tu sarvAMzeneti jJeyam || (Bhakti-sandarbha 338) “However, these secret sports are not to be worshiped by those who experience male transformations in their senses, or by those who are in the moods of father, son and servant, for it would be contrary to their moods. Confidentiality is understood according to the partial or complete touching of limbs.” Therefore, only those who are likely to be disturbed by rasa-lila are disqualified from hearing. This does not mean that all are disqualified, though. I have dealt with all these issues before in other threads. Logic do not needs in this questions, needs folloowing true guru-sastra. The problem here is that your conclusions are against sadhu and sastra. Whether it is against your guru all depends on who is your guru. Who is your guru, by the way? ***OK thanks for clarifying that. Perhaps you could embark on a research trip to Sri Vrindavana-dhama or Sri Navadvipa-dhama and just see how many Gaudiya Vaishnavas exist who do not have Srila Prabhupada as their guru, and let me know what you find. If they not have taste books SP, then they not has qualification. It is true. Sorry Kailasa, but still I find these sorts of statements a tad arrogant and slightly bigoted. You're just gonna have to learn to deal with the fact that not everyone thinks that Srila Prabhupada is jagat-guru. Every disciple thinks that their own guru is jagat-guru. How many jagat-gurus are there? Rupa Gosvami never read Srila Prabhupada's books, are you saying he is not qualified? Yes, about Ramanada ray me may disscuss, no problem. Do you know who Ramananda Raya is in Vraja-lila? Yopu reach demigods, then you reach VAICUNTHA, then - Goloka. BRAHMA-Madhava. Dear Kailasa, I humbly suggest to you that you do not have a clear understanding of Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta. Sorry Kailasa, but I do not agree. This is a very erratic statement and also very inflammatory. It is not correct of you to state that Tripurari Swami and the rest do not follow Srila Prabhupada. He is know svarupa SP? He is know mood SP? He is know books SP? He is stay in organisation SP? He is work some in disciples SP - yes. He is take SP like main guru? Or not? SP kind any way, but sorry it is not DIRECT following. Pls I am take me bows TS, I am only question. Perhaps you might like to put these questions to Tripurari Swami or the others directly, or at least ascertain the situation with their disciples. That would be a far better idea than prematurely declaring that these individuals do not follow Srila Prabhupada. ISKCON is not the be-all and end-all for a very large amount of people, what to speak of Gaudoya Vaishnavas as a whole. You do not know ISKCON, all gaudia in time go in ISKCON. Dear Kailasa, I have been going to ISKCON since I was born. ISKCON was first incorporated in 1966. ISKCON did not exist at the time of Mahaprabhu, the Gosvamis, Narottama, Visvanatha, and so on. Therefore there are hundred of thousands of Gaudiyas who have never gone to ISKCON. ***In Gaura-lila they assumed the form of sadhakas Sadhakas or raganugas? Raganuga-sadhakas. Of course, this is only apparent and not real. /images/graemlins/wink.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif ***and were personally empowered by Mahaprabhu Yes YOU mey empowered Caitanya Mahaprabhu if be follow. Kailasa, this is a silly proposal. I cannot empower Mahaprabhu, that would be a most grievous blasphemy. ***Himself to elucidate the philosophy Yes 1 st canto, 2 canto all. No, the Gosvamis did not write Sriamd Bhagavatam. That was written by Srila Vyasadeva. ***Where does it say that in the sastras? SP, SBT, i am may look for you. In 10 canto write this. I asked you for sastric quotes. Srila Prabhupada's and Srila Bhaktivinoda's commentaries are not sastra, though their viewpoints are very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted November 1, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2003 First of all I must say that I relish your comments, although they have almost no impact on... But over the time some changes in understanding can be seen in..., it will take some time to fructify, and of this there is no doubt. Srila Prabhupada's and Srila Bhaktivinoda's commentaries are not sastra, though their viewpoints are very interesting. Taking into account Srila Bhaktivinoda's praNAma mantra, I would say that his Comments are in the category of Sastra. My gurudeva says that he is considered as the seventh Gosvami (besides the Six of Vrindavana). namo bhaktivinodAya sac-cid-Ananda-nAmine gaura-Sakti-svarUpAya rUpAnuga-varAya te <font color="blue"> I offer praNAma unto SaccidAnanda Sri Bhaktivinoda ThAkura, who is the foremost of rUpAnugas and the embodiment (prakASa) of Sri GaurANga MahAprabhu’s Sakti, GadAdhara PaNDita. </font color> Also consider that Srila BV Svami Prabhupada is a pure devotee of Radha Krishna, so it cannot be that His commentaries on the scriptures he translated, (which generally follow the commentaries of Srila Baladeva VidyabhuSana, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and his own guru)are not in the category of Sastra. His own opinion on what he means by Sastra is given in His purport on the verse 118 from CC Madya lila, Ch.22: avaisnava-sanga-tyaga, bahu-sisya na kariba bahu-grantha-kalabhyasa-vyakhyana varjiba One should not partially study many scriptures just to be able to give references and expand explanations. From His purport: <font color="blue"> "In our Krsna consciousness movement we have therefore limited our study of Vedic literatures to Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Caitanya-caritamrta and Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. These four works are sufficient for preaching purposes. They are adequate for the understanding of the philosophy and the spreading of missionary activities all over the world"</font color> Now the problem is that very few go beyond Srimad Bhagavatam classes, but most remain on Bhagavat-gita, which in itself is very auspicious, saying that you should first realize the verse dehino smin yatha dehe to go further, (which should be the door to virakti and Saranagati). And if one speaks from other Gaudya VaiSnava Books, than it comes a little bit heretical for some(most) of the followers of his (more or less) followers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2003 Report Share Posted November 1, 2003 In reply to: -- I've heard nice stories from intimate disciples of Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja. -- Would you be kind enough to let me know how I can get in touch with these disciples, especially by email? I am again in England. You can get in touch with the indian devotee that told me more such stories about Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja at purandaracharya@.co.in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted November 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 OBJECTION 7: Srila Narayana MahArAja “re-initiates” disciples of VaiSNava gurus in good standing. REFUTATION 7 Part 2 In Bhakti-sandarbha (Anuccheda 238), Srila Jiva GosvAmi has given the injunction that if one’s guru is envious of an exalted VaiSVava one should immediately reject that guru and find a mahAbhAgavata VaiSNava guru. Since many gurus in “good standing” have committed grievous offences at the lotus feet of Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja, Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja and Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja, their ex-disciples acted in accordance with scriptural injunctions by rejecting them. Therefore there was no “reinitiation”, only “real initiation.” If a guru is actually in good standing, then there is no question of Srila MahArAja re-initiating his disciples. Rather, he simply gives them instructions and encouragement in their spiritual practices, and helps them to develop a deeper faith in their dikSa-guru. <font color="blue"> This article is a reply to the paper entitled “ISKCON’s position on Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja” by His Grace Badri-nArAyaNa Prabhu. The following article will examine, one by one, the points made in that paper, in the light of scriptural evidence and the statementsof Srila Prabhupada himself. Statements of the ISKCON position paper will be refered to as OBJECTION, and ours as REFUTATION. </font color> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 from Bhaktisiddhanta vaidha bhakta jane kaabhu raganuga jane na komala sraddhake kabhu rasika to jane na "Devotees who are still on the platform of following regulated scriptural injunctions (vaidha-bhaktas) cannot yet understand anything about the exalted stage of the raganugas, practitioners of spontaneous devotional service. Those who possess weak faith cannot yet understand the realm of the rasikas, relaters of pure transcendental mellows. this is a fact,here he says only the raganuga bhakta can understand anything about raganuga,anyone else is unqualified to even begin to understand, as far as raganuga being a different path,yes this is true, but it is not a path one can choose,it's not that there are two paths,vaidhi and raganuga and you can pick one at your whim. raganuga is the purified path,only a person on that level can even understand what it is,anyone else can read about it,but the truth of that path is only understood when one attains that level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 raganuga sadhakera labdha rasa bole na raganuga sadhya bhava rati chada haya na "Genuine devotees on the level of spontaneous devotional service never say that neophyte students of devotion have attained rasa. The pure emotions characteristic of the goal of spontaneous devotion are never attained without first experiencing the correct progressive development of spiritual attachment (rati)." bhavankura samagame vaidhi bhakti thake na rucike ratira saha kabhu eka jane na "Only when the seed of intense divine emotion sprouts forth pure bhava, then there is no longer any need to adhere to scriptural rules and regulations (vaidhi bhakti). One should never consider ruci (the taste for devotional service) to be the same as rati (transcendental loving attachment in devotional service)." raganuga boile i prapta rasa jane na vidhi sodhya jane jabhu raganuga bole na "Divine rasa can never be factually attained merely by talking of spontaneous devotion [by claiming " I am a raganuga-bhakta."] A beginning student who should still be further purified by following the scriptural injunctions is never said to be on the level of performing spontaneous loving service unto the Lord." sadhanera purve keha bhavankura paya na jade sraddha na chadile rati kabhu haya na "No one can ever experience the sprouting of pure ecstatic emotions without first following the regulated injunctions of the scriptures. One who does not give up materialistic faith can never attain the stage of spiritual attachment in devotional service." jata bhava na hiole rasika to haya na jada bhava na chakile rasika to haya na "If divine ecstatic emotions have not yet awakened, there is no possibility of one becoming a rasika, a true relisher of devotional mellows. If materialistic emotions are not entirely rejected, one can never become a true rasika. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 you said I asked you for sastric quotes. Srila Prabhupada's and Srila Bhaktivinoda's commentaries are not sastra, though their viewpoints are very interesting what is shastra ? are the writings of acharyas shastra ? Is Sanatana or Rupa giving commentary or shastra ? Is Bhaktivedanta any different ? What qualifies as shastra ? It's simply different words but the words of either shastra or commentary have the same potency if the source is a Maha Bhagavata, so shastra and sadhu are said to be the same, empowered by Bhagavan ,giving relevent siddhanta from the same source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 you said Thus, Jiva Gosvami says: kintu rahasya-lIlA tu pauruSa-vikAravad indriyaiH pitR-putra-dAsa-bhAvaiz ca nopAsyA svIya-bhAva-virodhAt | rahasyatvaM ca tasyAH kvacid alpAMzena kvacit tu sarvAMzeneti jJeyam || (Bhakti-sandarbha 338) “However, these secret sports are not to be worshiped by those who experience male transformations in their senses, or by those who are in the moods of father, son and servant, for it would be contrary to their moods. Confidentiality is understood according to the partial or complete touching of limbs.” Therefore, only those who are likely to be disturbed by rasa-lila are disqualified from hearing. This does not mean that all are disqualified, though. I have dealt with all these issues before in other threads. how did you get that from what jiva goswami said ? he is not saying anything about disqualification for hearing,he says these secret sports are not to be worshipped until you are in the proper rasa. He doesn't mean hearing when he says worshiped,he means you cannot enter into that rasa if you are not in that rasa, this has nothing to do with those who are not involved in raganuga,this is exactly what bhaktisiddhanta warns about, the fact is you cannot understand raganuga topics unless you are on that plane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaurasundara Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 First of all I must say that I relish your comments, although they have almost no impact on...But over the time some changes in understanding can be seen in..., it will take some time to fructify, and of this there is no doubt. Dear Anadiji, I am telling you this in a very friendly way, so please do not misunderstand or take offense. It is very very very important to have an open mind. Holding fast to certain things inhibits learning. Srila Prabhupada's and Srila Bhaktivinoda's commentaries are not sastra, though their viewpoints are very interesting. Taking into account Srila Bhaktivinoda's praNAma mantra, I would say that his Comments are in the category of Sastra. Please allow me to clarify my original statement. What I meant to say, is that the commentaries of Vaishnava acharyas may be taken as 'sastra' by their own followers, and in certain cases, only by their disciples. Sri Vaishnavas, Madhva Vaishnavas, and so on, are not obliged to respect Gaudiya commentaries as sastra. For them it is not sastra, and for us their guru's commentaries ar enot sastra either, although they are respectable and worthy of attention, etc. So in that way, Srila Prabhupada's and Srila Bhaktivinoda's commentaries are certainly sastra for their own respective lineages, but in another way it is not sastra. Apart from that, if we are to respect the commentaries of our gurus as sastra, then what counts as the 'guru' in the triangular formation of guru-sadhu-sastra? For this reason, I'd have to say that referring to the guru's commentaries as "guru-vani" is a far safer bet than referring to them as 'sastra.' My gurudeva says that he is considered as the seventh Gosvami (besides the Six of Vrindavana). Dear Anadiji, do you know who was the first ever person to regard Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur as the Seventh Gosvami? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaurasundara Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 Thank you very much for this, Anadiji. Where are you staying in England? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaurasundara Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 as far as raganuga being a different path,yes this is true, but it is not a path one can choose,it's not that there are two paths,vaidhi and raganuga and you can pick one at your whim. Who in their right mind would not choose the path of raganuga-bhakti? karma, tapa, yoga, jJAna, vidhi-bhakti, japa, dhyAna | ihA haite mAdhurya durlabha || kevala ye rAga-mArge, bhaje kRSNe anurAge | tAre kRSNa-mAdhurya sulabha || (cc 2.21.119) “Sweetness is very difficult to attain through fruitive activities, austerity, yoga, intellectual speculation, vidhi-bhakti, recitation of mantras or meditation. The sweetness of Sri Krishna is easily attainable only for the one who affectionately worships Him on the path of raga.” And let's not forget what Krishna says: sakala jagate more kare vidhi-bhakti | vidhi-bhaktye vraja-bhAva pAite nAhi zakti || aizvarya-jJAnete saba jagat mizrita | aizvarya-zithila-preme nAhi mora prIta || (cc 1.3.15-16) “Everyone in this world worships Me through vidhi-bhakti. Vidhi-bhakti has no power for attaining the feelings of Vraja. The devotion of the world is mixed with knowledge of My divine prowess. I do not delight in love diluted with prowess.” It really all depends on what you would like to attain. Would you like to attain Narayana in Vaikuntha? Then by all means, follow the path of vidhi-bhakti on the authority of CC Madhya 24.87. If you would like to attain Krishna in Vraja, then the way to attain this goal is to follow raga-bhakti on the authority of CC Madhya 24.85. So yes, the aspirant is given a choice what he would like to attain, and he must use his own intelligence in this matter. No one else can make this decision for him. raganuga is the purified path,only a person on that level can even understand what it is The point here is, how to attain that level? By following it, of course! One does not attain a BSc. in Mathematics without enrolling on the appropriate course! In this way, posting that quote from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati has defeated your own arguments. Read what he says again: "Devotees who are still on the platform of following regulated scriptural injunctions (vaidha-bhaktas) cannot yet understand anything about the exalted stage of the raganugas, practitioners of spontaneous devotional service." This is common sense. Those following the path of vaidhi-bhakti would tend to absorb themselves in Narayana-seva and aspire to enter into those Vaikuntha pastimes. It is common sense that they would not have a clue about the raganuga path, because the raganuga path is all about Krishna in Vraja. Of course, they would understand it if they follow it and learn about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaurasundara Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 The point here, shivaji, is that if Kailasa wants to prove that the souls fell from the spiritual world, he will need to provide scriptural quotes to that effect. Simply quoting from the commentaries of certain acharyas is insufficent. What would a Sri Vaishnava think of such one-sided arguments, for example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaurasundara Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 Thus, Jiva Gosvami says: kintu rahasya-lIlA tu pauruSa-vikAravad indriyaiH pitR-putra-dAsa-bhAvaiz ca nopAsyA svIya-bhAva-virodhAt | rahasyatvaM ca tasyAH kvacid alpAMzena kvacit tu sarvAMzeneti jJeyam || (Bhakti-sandarbha 338) “However, these secret sports are not to be worshiped by those who experience male transformations in their senses, or by those who are in the moods of father, son and servant, for it would be contrary to their moods. Confidentiality is understood according to the partial or complete touching of limbs.” Therefore, only those who are likely to be disturbed by rasa-lila are disqualified from hearing. This does not mean that all are disqualified, though. I have dealt with all these issues before in other threads. -- how did you get that from what jiva goswami said ? The English is quite simple to understand. he is not saying anything about disqualification for hearing,he says these secret sports are not to be worshipped until you are in the proper rasa. How did you get that from what Jiva Gosvami said? Read it again: "However, these secret sports are not to be worshiped by those who experience male transformations in their senses, or by those who are in the moods of father, son and servant, for it would be contrary to their moods." In simple language, Jiva Gosvami is saying that one should not contemplate/hear/talk about the secret sports [of gopi-lila] if one gets turned on by it. Why would anyone get turned on by it? Excessive lust? Shameless projection of mundane desires onto the spiritual? Also, there are those who are not following the madhurya-rasa. There are devotees who may very well be following vatsalya-rasa or dasya-rasa (also sakhya-rasa?) and they will not take delight in hearing gopi-katha. In the case of a vatsalya-upasaka, he would take more delight in hearing about Krishna's bala-lila rather than kisora-lila. This is understandable, not to mention plain as day. He doesn't mean hearing when he says worshiped,he means you cannot enter into that rasa if you are not in that rasa If you carefully read that quote again, you'll find he says no such thing. I think this is your own interpretation. this has nothing to do with those who are not involved in raganuga Er well, that's the whole point? Those who run the risk of falling victims to their senses should not bother following that path in the first place? This also means that for those who actually can hear krsna-lila without getting disturbed should by all means do so and partake of the sweet joy therein? this is exactly what bhaktisiddhanta warns about, the fact is you cannot understand raganuga topics unless you are on that plane. Unfortunately, your quotes from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta did nothing for your argument. Rather, if you had a proper understanding of raganuga-bhakti, you'll find that those quotes more or less prove my points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 ***“The paths of vaidhi and raganuga are known to be separate from each other. Engagement in these two forms of practice certainly awakens two distinct varieties of bhava.” - Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.3.7 ***These are Srila Rupa Gosvami's words. If you kindly insist on maintaining your position, then you are obliged to present evidence. Read Madhurya kadambini. Any way nobodi do not able follow raganuga first. Sanatana Goswami write about sadana bhakti first. SBST write - wit out sadana no any raganuga. They stay separate later. ***By the way, what is sadhana-bhakti? There are two forms of sadhana-bhakti. These two forms are known as vaidhi-bhakti and raganuga-bhakti. You maens sadana-raganuga bhakti? ***They are two distinct paths, the practice of which will give rise to two completely different bhavas. ***Who teach you? ***Rupa Gosvami. No. /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif You teacher manas. ****Sadana it is worship vaicuntha then person go in forewer Goloka. ***vidhi-bhaktye pArSada-dehe vaikuNThete yAya || ***“Through vidhi-bhakti, one will attain the form of an associate in Vaikuntha.” - CC Madhya 2.24.87 ***rAga-bhaktye vraje svayaM-bhagavAne pAya || ***“Through raga-bhakti, one will attain the Lord Himself in Vraja.” - CC Madhya 2.24.85 You not understand. First you do sadana, second raganuga. You not correct use citation from sastra. Some understand sastra with formal logic. ***In BRS - "nobody not come for Me with out step in santa rasa". ***Where does it say that in BRS, precisely? I am search. ***It is material - "I am follow raganuga only", it is misunderstanding. ***sakala jagate more kare vidhi-bhakti | vidhi-bhaktye vraja-bhAva pAite nAhi zakti || aizvarya-jJAnete saba jagat mizrita | aizvarya-zithila-preme nAhi mora prIta || “Everyone in this world worships Me through vidhi-bhakti. Vidhi-bhakti has no power for attaining the feelings of Vraja. The devotion of the world is mixed with knowledge of My divine prowess. I do not delight in love diluted with prowess.” - CC Adi 3.15-16 Yes, firsat you follow sadana bhakti and understand greatness God, second raganuga. It is confirme Narottama dasa Thakur. You do not able follow raganuga first. "Madhurya-rasa" with out knowlege greatness like ilicit lovers NBS. ***Therefore why whould only gopi-lila be the sole subject of consideration. Discuss the whole of the tenth canto! ***No 10 canto disscus many sabjects. First need understand BG as it is. ***Dear Kailasa, my simple point was about why people are so paranoid about the Tenth Canto. There are 90 chapters in the Tenth Canto. Of these 90, only five deal with the rasa-lila or dealings with Gopis. Yes. ***The point here is that Srimad Visvanatha clearly states that reading of Krishna's lilas in Tenth Canto will give rise to raga. If person true read all SB. "Sri Krsna, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramatma [supersoul] in everyone's heart and the benefactor of the truthful devotee, cleanses desire for material enjoyment from the heart of the devotee who has developed the urge to hear His messages, which are in themselves virtuous when properly heard and chanted." - SB 1.2.17 All lilas absolute. ***As I said elsewhere, it may be your sat-guru who teaches in this way, but other sat-gurus teach in different ways. ***No two ways. True guru teach sadana then raganuga. If guru teach raganuga first it is no true. ***Unfortunaztely for you, Rupa Gosvami does not agree with your opinion. Would you propose that Rupa Gosvami is not a true guru? You not understand Rupa Gosvami. Wiyh material logik no possible understand. Needs guru gaurasundara. ***I think you must first understand that raganuga-bhakti is a division of sadhana-bhakti itself. There is no "sadhana" and then "raganuga." Raganuga can mean sadhana for its practitioners. Vaidhi-bhakti-sadhana, raganuga-bhakti-sadhana, and so on. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura speaks a lot about this. Have you read the books of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura? Some. I am not understand your writtings. ***You not have qualification for raganuga? you? anadi and so on. -***How would you know I have no qualification to practise raganuga? Speaking of which, what are the qualifications for raganuga, does anyone know? rAgAtmikAika-niSThA ye vrajavAsi-janAdayaH | teSAM bhAvAptaye lubdho bhaved atrAdhikAravAn || (brs 1.2.291) “The very being of those who reside in Vraja is steeped in loving attachment. One who becomes greedy to attain feelings similar to theirs possesses eligibility.” kRSNa-bhakti-rasa-bhAvita-matiH | kriyatAM yadi kuto'pi labhyate || tatra laulyam api mUlyam ekalaM | janma-koTi-sukRtair na labhyate || (Padyavali 14) “Wherever that consciousness laden with rapturous loving feelings for Sri Krishna is available, from there it must be acquired. For that there is indeed only one price, greed, which cannot be attained through pious deeds even in millions of births.” The only qualification necessary for the practice of raganuga-bhakti is the sacred greed to hear about the rAgAtmika-bhAva of the VrajavAsIs. No other qualification is necessary. /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif You has rAgAtmika-bhAva? ***SP commentary describe real raganuga. ***This is your opinion. It is me practic. ***"Real raganuga" has already been described by Srila Rupa Gosvami in Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu. With out guru person do not able rise himself. Second - has many thin things. perfection it is mood Lord caitanya. ***The key to finding the "right" way is to research which way most closely follows the path chalked out by the Six Gosvamis. ***Gosvamis it is madhurya - vipralamba - acintya bheda abheda tattva. ***So? This is the path they have chalked out for Gaudiya sadhakas to follow. Are you proposing that one should not follow the Gosvamis? Needs understand Gosvamis. Sahajiya not understand Goswamis. ***they meet Krisna - they never meet Krisna it is top spiritual life, in platform material it is no understand. ***Why is it not to be understood on the material platform? It is top spiritual life. ***Real spirituality cannot be attained on the material platform anyway, or can it? That is precisely why Sriman Mahaprabhu made His Holy Advent, so that the disillusioned souls of Kali-yuga may be able to find their way to His supreme abode by the light that He holds in His divine palms. He passed this light onto the Gosvamis. And the Gosvamis have adequately explained how one may reach the Vraja platform. /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif FIRST - SADANA, SECOND - RAGANUGA. FIRST NEED UNDERSTAND 9 CANTO, SECOND - 10 CANTO. THEN CC, THEN GOSWAMIS. Another way you not understand Goswamis. ***Gosvamis it is not sambhoga Krisna lila, it is ONLY PART they teachings. ***Have you studied the works of the Gosvamis? Yes. ***I'll be honest here and admit that I have also not completed studying the Gosvami literature myself. However, what little I do know, I am far more inclined to accept their opinion than yours. It is in CC. ***Dear Kailasa, thousands upon thousands have proceeded to read Bhagavad-gita, Srimad Bhagavatam and then Caitanya-caritamrta. Are you saying that all of these people have a clear idea of the Gosvami's conception? Reading books do not understanding books. Needs true guru, sadhu, sastra. ***Speaking of which, one deveotee recently "boasted" to me that she has read BG, SB, and is now reading CC. She was fully convinced about the sastric basis of the chanting of the holy name and was glorifying it very nicely. When I asked her what she thought of CC Adi Chapter 4, in which the reason for Mahaprabhu's advent is given as the propagation of raganuga-bhakti with nama-sankirtana as a side-effect, she didn't have a clue what I was talking about. For me, this was proof that one can simply read books without understanding what is actually written in them. Yes needs true guru, true parampara. ***In one case it is may go lift, in another case it may degradade. If person material he is do not listen this pastimes. Thus, Jiva Gosvami says: kintu rahasya-lIlA tu pauruSa-vikAravad indriyaiH pitR-putra-dAsa-bhAvaiz ca nopAsyA svIya-bhAva-virodhAt | rahasyatvaM ca tasyAH kvacid alpAMzena kvacit tu sarvAMzeneti jJeyam || (Bhakti-sandarbha 338) “However, these secret sports are not to be worshiped by those who experience male transformations in their senses, or by those who are in the moods of father, son and servant, for it would be contrary to their moods. Confidentiality is understood according to the partial or complete touching of limbs.” ***Therefore, only those who are likely to be disturbed by rasa-lila are disqualified from hearing. This does not mean that all are disqualified, though. I have dealt with all these issues before in other threads. Has auturitete way, you do some context citation. needs undertand spiritual science in whole other way person degradade. Your frinds degradade - aparadhis, no any rasa lila it is fools for some gyana. ***Logic do not needs in this questions, needs folloowing true guru-sastra. **The problem here is that your conclusions are against sadhu and sastra. No. ***If they not have taste books SP, then they not has qualification. It is true. ****Sorry Kailasa, but still I find these sorts of statements a tad arrogant and slightly bigoted. You're just gonna have to learn to deal with the fact that not everyone thinks that Srila Prabhupada is jagat-guru. But they not have qualifications. You speak me from this person? They do not understand sastra. ***Every disciple thinks that their own guru is jagat-guru. Me guru not SP. ***How many jagat-gurus are there? Rupa Gosvami never read Srila Prabhupada's books, are you saying he is not qualified? You do not know read Rupa Goswami SP or not, then you cheat. -***Yes, about Ramanada ray me may disscuss, no problem. ***Do you know who Ramananda Raya is in Vraja-lila? Ranmanada in sakhia He is no stay in Vraja lila in madhurya. Ramananda in sakhya - madhurya only in Gaura lila. Any way needs qualification for 10 canto. If you gopi then bath girls for Krisna. You girl in Wraja lila you has ragatmica bhava? - then no problem bath girls for Krisna. ***Yopu reach demigods, then you reach VAICUNTHA, then - Goloka. BRAHMA-Madhava. ***Dear Kailasa, I humbly suggest to you that you do not have a clear understanding of Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta. Dear boy write arguments. First you reach demigods, second - vaikuntha, then Goloka santa, then sambhoga Krisna lila - vipralambha Krisna lila, then you understand vipralambha gaura lila. IF you be follow SP you may go quikly. Because people in material platform then they "understand" sambhoga Krisna lila only. If person not go step by step it is only theory - gyana. ***Perhaps you might like to put these questions to Tripurari Swami I am not needs. ***That would be a far better idea than prematurely declaring that these individuals do not follow Srila Prabhupada. SP speak not go from ISKCON. May be late thay be follow SP but now - not. It is fact. ***You do not know ISKCON, all gaudia in time go in ISKCON. ***Dear Kailasa, I have been going to ISKCON since I was born. ISKCON was first incorporated in 1966. ISKCON did not exist at the time of Mahaprabhu, the Gosvamis, Narottama, Visvanatha, and so on. Exist. In time Caitanya mahaprabhu - exist, no problem, late dissapear, yes. You born in ISKCON, but you not know ISKCON, what problem? Pfisical not spiritual, you may stay with uttama, but pfisical you not understand uttama. ***Therefore there are hundred of thousands of Gaudiyas who have never gone to ISKCON. Now? Gaudias follow guru-sastra properly, they not follow imaginations or speculations. ***Raganuga-sadhakas. First sadana, second - raganuga, then FOR YOU they stay as SADHAKAS, for YOU understand. Understand? ***Yes YOU mey empowered Caitanya Mahaprabhu if be follow. ***Kailasa, this is a silly proposal. I cannot empower Mahaprabhu, that would be a most grievous blasphemy. If you see Lord Caitanya you go distribute books SP, it is test. ***No, the Gosvamis did not write Sriamd Bhagavatam. It is preach babaji? They is crazy. ***That was written by Srila Vyasadeva. And what? Vyasadeva no? It is true way. ***Where does it say that in the sastras? ***SP, SBT, i am may look for you. In 10 canto write this. ***I asked you for sastric quotes. I am bring. ***Srila Prabhupada's and Srila Bhaktivinoda's commentaries are not sastra, Sastra, they speak from sastra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 Yes Siava for babaji - game ower. /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif so full, so full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 ***“Sweetness is very difficult to attain through fruitive activities, austerity, yoga, intellectual speculation, vidhi-bhakti, recitation of mantras or meditation. The sweetness of Sri Krishna is easily attainable only for the one who affectionately worships Him on the path of raga.” Needs follow sadana, and some moment go forvard for raganuga. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 SB 10.87.38 "The illusory material nature attracts the minute living entity to embrace her, and as a result he assumes forms composed of her qualities. Subsequently, he loses all his spiritual qualities and must undergo repeated deaths. You, however, avoid the material energy in the same way that a snake abandons its old skin. Glorious in Your possession of eight mystic perfections, You enjoy unlimited opulences." SB 11.2.37 "When the living entity is attracted by the material energy, which is separate from Krsna, he is overpowered by fear. Because he is separated from the Supreme Personality of Godhead by the material energy, his conception of life is reversed. In other words, instead of being the eternal servant of Krsna, he becomes Krsna's competitor. This is called viparyayo ’smatiu. To nullify this mistake, one who is actually learned and advanced worships the Supreme Personality of Godhead as his spiritual master, worshipful Deity and source of life. He thus worships the Lord by the process of unalloyed devotional service." CC Madhya 22.24 "The living entity is bound around the neck by the chain of maya because he has forgotten that he is eternally a servant of Krsna." From Jaiva dharma. "It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one and different from the Lord. "Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore the illusory energy (maya) gives him all kinds of misery in his material existence.” ( Madhya 20.117 ) ( Forgetting Krsna? attracted? ) "The individual soul is a small particle of spirit. Nevertheless, one of the Supreme Lord’s potencies makes some individual souls somehow have a relationship with matter. The potency that does this is called tatastha sakti. ...Supreme Lord’s potencies makes some individual souls relationship with matter...called tatastha sakti. "The individual soul is spiritual. Nevertheless the spiritual soul may be placed under the control of inanimate matter. "The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the master of the illusory potency maya. Maya is under His control. On the other hand, the individual spirit soul may in some circumstances find himself under the control of maya. Therefore the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the individual spirit souls and the illusory potency maya are three distinct entities eternally. "The individual soul may sometimes find himself under the control of the illusory potency maya, but the Supreme Personality of Godhead is always the controller of maya. In this way the individual spirit soul and the Supreme Personality of Godhead are different eternally. "The eternal nature and duty of the individual soul is service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If he forgets this duty, the individual souls comes under maya’s control. Then the soul stays away from Lord Krsna. That staying away from Lord Krsna means that the soul enters the material world. ( forgets? THEN the stays away from LORD KRSNA? ) It is not possible to give an historical account describing when, in time, the soul first fell into the material world. That is why it is said ‘anadi-bahirmukha’ (the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial). This staying away from Krsna and the time of entering maya’s world are both different from the soul’s eternal nature. They are perversions of it. "Lord Krsna is the totality of spiritual existence. He is like a sun from which many spiritual universes have come. The individual spirit souls are rays of light from that Krsna-sun. There are many individual spirit souls. ( Maha-Visnu? ) "To this I reply, You cannot speak in that way. If my opponent then protests, "Why not?" then I reply: From Lord Krsna limitless individual souls are manifested as His parts and parcels. Still, Lord Krsna is not diminished even slightly because of that. ( From Maha-Visnu? ) "In all the Vedas it is said that the individual souls are like sparks emanating from the blazing fire of Lord Krsna. However none of these comparisons give a completely accurate picture of the real truth. The examples of the great fire and the spark, the sun and the rays of light, and the alchemists stone and gold do not describe the entire situation. Therefore, rejecting these material analogies, one should look inside his heart and there he will understand the truth of the soul’s nature. "Lord Krsna is the great spiritual being and the individual soul is the infinitesimal spiritual being. Lord Krsna and the individual soul are one in the sense that they are both spiritual. However, Lord Krsna is the complete whole and the individual souls are only parts of the whole. That is the difference between them. "Lord Krsna is the supreme attractive, and the individual spirit soul is attracted to Him. Lord Krsna is the supreme controller, and the individual spirit soul is controlled by Him. Lord Krsna sees all, and the individual spirit soul is observed by Him. Lord Krsna is perfect, and the individual spirit soul is poor and lowly. Lord Krsna is all-powerful, and the individual soul is powerless. Therefore the eternal nature or religion of the individual soul is to be a faithful servant of Lord Krsna eternally. But when the individual soul is in contact with the illusory potency maya, the soul’s pure state is not manifested When he forgets the service of Lord Krsna, the soul finds himself situated in the material world of repeated birth and death. However, when he comes into contact with the illusory potency maya, the soul becomes impure. When he is in contact with the illusory potency maya, the individual soul is covered by a body of gross and subtle material elements. First, the soul identifies himself with the subtle material body. Second, he identifies himself with the gross material body. Third, he identifies himself as the subtle and gross bodies mixed together. In this way the soul’s conception of his identity becomes changed. In his pure state the individual soul is an unalloyed devotee of Lord Krsna. When the soul thus has a false conception of his identity, his original nature becomes perverted. That pure love is seen in the gross material body in an even more perverted way as material eating, drinking, and a host of other so-called pleasures derived from contact with inanimate matter. SBT. - jiva falls from spiritual position - from time immemorial (As in the spiritual world there is no material time) SP - "Since time immemorial each living entity has accumulated the various reactions of his good and bad work. As such, he is continuously ignorant of his real constitutional position. Ones ignorance can be removed by the instruction of the Bhagavad-gita, which teaches one to surrender unto Lord Sri Krsna in all respects and become liberated from the chained victimization of action and reaction, birth after birth. Arjuna is therefore advised to act in Krsna consciousness, the purifying process of resultant action. "Having forgotten that purpose since time immemorial, they are situated in different bodies, as men, animals, demigods, etc. Such bodily differences arise from forgetfulness of the transcendental service of the Lord. The fragment of God, the living entity, may fall down into the material world, but the Supreme Lord (Acyuta) never falls down. ...." 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Guest guest Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 I AM so full, so full. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted November 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 OBJECTION 7: Srila Narayana MahArAja “re-initiates” disciples of VaiSNava gurus in good standing. REFUTATION 7 Part 3 A misunderstanding sometimes arises because, on rare occasions, Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja addresses those who take SikzA from him with names connected with the vraja-lila of Sri Sri RadhA- KRSNa. This is sometimes misunderstood to be re-initiation. One famous example of this is JAdurANi dasi. Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja affectionately addresses her as “‘SyAmarANi”. This does not in any way mean that she has been re-initiated. Even Srila Prabhupada would sometimes affectionately address her as “SAdhurANi”. This affectionate use of another name does not mean that Srila Prabhupada has awarded another initiation. Besides this, there is substantial historical precedent in our sampradAya for a Sikzä-guru to change a Sikzä disciple’s name. Srila Jiva Gosvami changed the name of Sri HRdaya-caitanya’s disciple, DuUkhi KRSNAa dasa, to “syAmAnanda”. This change of name does not consitute a re-initiation. Sri HRdaya-caitanya was still his dikSA guru, and Srila Jiva GosvAmi was still his SikzA-guru. <font color="blue"> This article is a reply to the paper entitled “ISKCON’s position on Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja” by His Grace Badri-nArAyaNa Prabhu. The following article will examine, one by one, the points made in that paper, in the light of scriptural evidence and the statementsof Srila Prabhupada himself. Statements of the ISKCON position paper will be refered to as OBJECTION, and ours as REFUTATION. </font color> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 ***Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja affectionately addresses her as “‘SyAmarANi”. But another mans do reinitiation. Then - if SP take name Jadurani what needs "Syamarani"? It is no plays, it is spiritual name. It is disrespect for SP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 ignorant on vedic tradition you are and spekulator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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