The difference

[Guest guest]

Prakrita Rasa Shata Dushini

 

"In the absence of the necessary constituent elements of the bhakti process (such as anartha-nivrtti, nistha, ruci, etc.) one can never become fixed up in their own eternal sthayi-bhava (one of five principle mellows). In the absence of sthayi-bhava and its necessary elements, one can never become situated in their eternal rasa (siddha-deha)."

 

 

vaidha bhakta jane kaabhu raganuga jane na

komala sraddhake kabhu rasika to jane na

 

"Devotees who are still on the platform of following regulated scriptural injunctions (vaidha-bhaktas) cannot yet understand anything about the exalted stage of the raganugas, practitioners of spontaneous devotional service. Those who possess weak faith cannot yet understand the realm of the rasikas, relaters of pure transcendental mellows."

 

from Bhaktivinode

 

adhikara na labhiya siddhadeha bhave

viparyaya buddhi janme saktira abhave

 

"If one thinks of their siddha-deha without achieving the adhikara (necessary realization), their intelligence gets bewildered."

 

 

i'll try and explain with an allegory.

 

Lets say you work for Wal-mart,you're a delivery person

distributing their merchandise.

 

Your job has rules and regulations you must follow,

be at work at a specific time,work following the instruction of your superior,follow the path laid

down in your job manual.

 

By chance you meet one of the Walton clan(the owners),

you date one of the owners of Wal-mart then go

and get married.

 

Your previous position is over,you're new duty is not to Wal-Mart but to theowner of Wal-Mart, your new duty

is not to follow the rules and regulations of a job

but to provide intimate loving relationship with the owner.

 

You cannot enter into that position prematurely,if you haven't even met the owner and try to walk into his/her house and act like it's your house you will be arrested.

 

Without first having a relationship with the owner

you cannot even concieve of what that lifestyle is,

he/she lives the life of a billionaire,with your delivery

job your lifestyle and experience is completely different

then that of a billionaire heir.

 

you live in two different realities,different rules,

different types of relationships with each other,

one as owner the other as worker,if you try and enter a higher relationship with the owner without a proper introduction and relationship you will only be following

a course headed for disaster.

 

So the path of the rasika bhakta is of an altogether

different reality to that of a vaidhi bhakta.

 

The vaidhi bhakta cannot just waltz into Radha Krsna's

presence and expect to be admitted as an equal,

first you must become qualified,you must first establish

a mellow,a rasa, a relationship with Radha Krsna,

then at that stage the path of the rasika is open.

 

what is that path ?

 

It is the enjoyment of rasa with Radha Krsna,devotional service not as a regulated process of becoming qualified,

but direct mellows of love between reciprocating people,

this is not an imaginary or mental thing, it is the direct

association in your eternal rasa.

 

That is real raganuga bhakti,it is not the same as raganuga

sadhana, sadhana is for becoming qualified,for becoming

eligible to enter rasa,they are not the same,and without first becoming fully educated,as Bhaktivinode stated above,you simply become bewildered.

[Guest guest]

here

How did you get that from what Jiva Gosvami said? Read it again: "However, these secret sports are not to be worshiped by those who experience male transformations in their senses, or by those who are in the moods of father, son and servant, for it would be contrary to their moods."

 

In simple language, Jiva Gosvami is saying that one should not contemplate/hear/talk about the secret sports [of gopi-lila] if one gets turned on by it. Why would anyone get turned on by it? Excessive lust? Shameless projection of mundane desires onto the spiritual?

 

Also, there are those who are not following the madhurya-rasa. There are devotees who may very well be following vatsalya-rasa or dasya-rasa (also sakhya-rasa?) and they will not take delight in hearing gopi-katha. In the case of a vatsalya-upasaka, he would take more delight in hearing about Krishna's bala-lila rather than kisora-lila. This is understandable, not to mention plain as day.

 

 

 

that is your interpretation,he says worship,not contemplate/hear/talk.

 

he is not saying if one is attracted by lust one is not

qualified to hear or contemplate,again that is your take.

 

he is saying that if you have a male body,you cannot enter into that mode of worship.

 

if you have male transformations,or male reactions,

as all males do naturally,then you cannot worship

Radha Krsna as a female.

 

that is obvious.

 

and he says if your actual position is that of father son or servant also you cannot worship in that mode.

 

it has nothing whatsover to do with sadhana of any kind,

if it did he would say so,it has to do with "worship"

or service,not sadhana.

 

It has nothing to do with the path of sadhana bhakti,

he is describing a different reality,the rasika

reality,the spontaneous devotion in rasa.

 

Again this proves the point, those not on the level of raganuga cannot appreciate what it is,they see everything

in terms of attainment,rather then rasa.

[Gaurasundara]

Kailasa, it is clear that you have not even attempted to study the works of the Six Gosvamis, but are intent on maintaining your own conclusions without much evidence. As such, I am loathe to continue this discussion when there seems to be no likely conclusion. However, I will just reply to a few important points.

 

 

 

***These are Srila Rupa Gosvami's words. If you kindly insist on maintaining your position, then you are obliged to present evidence.

 

Read Madhurya kadambini.

 

 

Kailasa, I do not have the time or resources to run around checking up "evidence" from books that you say contain evidence. If you have the evidence, please post it right here so we can all see. In any case, Rupa Gosvami insists that there are two separate paths that awaken two kinds of bhava. I fail to see how Srimad Visvanatha would contradict that.

 

 

Any way nobodi do not able follow raganuga first.

 

 

Speak for yourself, only. There are plenty of people who are able to follow the path of raganuga-bhakti. You may not agree with them, but then I doubt that they would agree with your views either.

 

 

Sanatana Goswami write about sadana bhakti first.

 

 

Again, sadhana-bhakti is split into two; vaidhi-bhakti-sadhana and raganuga-bhakti-sadhana. Which "sadhana-bhakti" do you want to follow, that is the question!

 

 

***They are two distinct paths, the practice of which will give rise to two completely different bhavas.

 

***Who teach you?

 

 

***Rupa Gosvami.

 

No. /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif You teacher manas.

 

 

No Kailasa, I have quoted from Rupa Gosvami and presented evidence from his writings to backup my points. On the contrary I haven't noticed the same courtesy from you. Do you think you could kindly quote verses to prove your points so that this discussion can progress, instead of accusing other people of being speculators?

 

 

****Sadana it is worship vaicuntha then person go in forewer Goloka.

 

***vidhi-bhaktye pArSada-dehe vaikuNThete yAya ||

 

***“Through vidhi-bhakti, one will attain the form of an associate in Vaikuntha.” - CC Madhya 2.24.87

 

***rAga-bhaktye vraje svayaM-bhagavAne pAya ||

 

***“Through raga-bhakti, one will attain the Lord Himself in Vraja.” - CC Madhya 2.24.85

 

You not understand. First you do sadana, second raganuga. You not correct use citation from sastra.

 

 

Rather, it seems to be you who does not seem to understand. You clearly said that "worship Vaikuntha" then people go to "forever Goloka." However, the Caitanya-caritamrta (translated by Srila Prbahupada, by the way) clearly states that each form of worship will lead to a different goal. It is not progressive.

 

 

"Everyone in this world worships Me through vidhi-bhakti. Vidhi-bhakti has no power for attaining the feelings of Vraja. The devotion of the world is mixed with knowledge of My divine prowess. I do not delight in love diluted with prowess.” - CC Adi 3.15-16

 

Yes, firsat you follow sadana bhakti and understand greatness God, second raganuga. It is confirme Narottama dasa Thakur.

 

 

Is this what you really understand from a verse in which Krishna Himself clearly states that He is not attracted by vidhi-bhakti?

 

Please release yourself from this dubious idea that one must first follow vaidhi-bhakti and then raganuga. It has been already shown numerous times that it is a matter of choice for the sadhaka.

 

If you do not agree, you are not rupanuga.

 

By the way, can you show me where Narottama das Thakura says such a thing?

 

 

***Unfortunaztely for you, Rupa Gosvami does not agree with your opinion. Would you propose that Rupa Gosvami is not a true guru?

 

You not understand Rupa Gosvami. Wiyh material logik no possible understand.

 

 

I am sure that you agree with Rupa Gosvami, that is why you are continually establishing deviant ideas that have been shown to be deviant when his words have been presented quite clearly for the whole world to see.

By the way, you did not answer me if Rupa Gosvami is a true guru or not?

 

 

***I think you must first understand that raganuga-bhakti is a division of sadhana-bhakti itself. There is no "sadhana" and then "raganuga." Raganuga can mean sadhana for its practitioners. Vaidhi-bhakti-sadhana, raganuga-bhakti-sadhana, and so on. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura speaks a lot about this. Have you read the books of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura?

 

Some. I am not understand your writtings.

 

 

Simple:

 

Sadhana-bhakti is two types, vaidhi and raganuga. Vaidhi and raganuga both called "sadhana-bhakti."

 

 

***So? This is the path they have chalked out for Gaudiya sadhakas to follow. Are you proposing that one should not follow the Gosvamis?

 

Needs understand Gosvamis. Sahajiya not understand Goswamis.

 

 

So now raganuga-bhaktas are all sahajiyas? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

 

***Real spirituality cannot be attained on the material platform anyway, or can it? That is precisely why Sriman Mahaprabhu made His Holy Advent, so that the disillusioned souls of Kali-yuga may be able to find their way to His supreme abode by the light that He holds in His divine palms. He passed this light onto the Gosvamis. And the Gosvamis have adequately explained how one may reach the Vraja platform.

 

FIRST - SADANA, SECOND - RAGANUGA. FIRST NEED UNDERSTAND 9 CANTO, SECOND - 10 CANTO. THEN CC, THEN GOSWAMIS. Another way you not understand Goswamis.

 

 

Kailasa, talking in BIG LETTERS does not prove that you are correct. You have no proof for your ideas and you have not shown any evidence. First find evidence, then speak.

 

 

***Have you studied the works of the Gosvamis?

 

Yes.

 

 

Right. Which books of the Gosvamis have you read?

 

 

***Speaking of which, one deveotee recently "boasted" to me that she has read BG, SB, and is now reading CC. She was fully convinced about the sastric basis of the chanting of the holy name and was glorifying it very nicely. When I asked her what she thought of CC Adi Chapter 4, in which the reason for Mahaprabhu's advent is given as the propagation of raganuga-bhakti with nama-sankirtana as a side-effect, she didn't have a clue what I was talking about. For me, this was proof that one can simply read books without understanding what is actually written in them.

 

Yes needs true guru, true parampara.

 

 

I forgot to mention that this girl is an initiated disciple of Sivarama Swami. So even with a "true guru" and a "true parampara," she still didn't have a clue what Mahaprabhu's mission was all about.

 

 

Has auturitete way, you do some context citation. needs undertand spiritual science in whole other way person degradade. Your frinds degradade - aparadhis, no any rasa lila it is fools for some gyana.

 

 

Kailasa, how do you know if my friends are degraded aparadhis? For a start, you do not know who they are. If you did know them, then you will know that they are neither degraded nor aparadhis. Rather, you are the one who seems to be committing Vaishnava-aparadha by deliberately criticising genuine Vaishnavas who have taken their sadhana with serious committment and devotion. You are not in a position to judge other people unless you are yourself perfect. You haven't even present one argument from sastra to back up what you are saying. Please go find evidence.

 

 

**The problem here is that your conclusions are against sadhu and sastra.

 

No.

 

 

Yes.

 

 

****Sorry Kailasa, but still I find these sorts of statements a tad arrogant and slightly bigoted. You're just gonna have to learn to deal with the fact that not everyone thinks that Srila Prabhupada is jagat-guru.

 

But they not have qualifications. You speak me from this person? They do not understand sastra.

 

 

Oh right. You have a better understanding of sastra than Tripurari Swami, BA Paramadvaiti, BG Narasingha, and all? if yes, then why have you not shown even one small piece of evidence for your talks?

 

 

You do not know read Rupa Goswami SP or not, then you cheat.

 

 

I know for a fact that Rupa Gosvami has never read Srila Prabhupada's books.

 

 

***Do you know who Ramananda Raya is in Vraja-lila?

 

Ranmanada in sakhia He is no stay in Vraja lila in madhurya. Ramananda in sakhya - madhurya only in Gaura lila.

 

 

No. Ramananda Raya is Visakha-sakhi in Vraja-lila. He is Ramananda Raya in Gaura-lila.

 

 

Any way needs qualification for 10 canto. If you gopi then bath girls for Krisna. You girl in Wraja lila you has ragatmica bhava? - then no problem bath girls for Krisna.

 

 

The point here, Kailasa, is to reach for ragatmika-like feelings one must follow the sadhana path of raganuga-bhakti. There is no other way, no other way, no other way. Nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha.

 

 

***Yopu reach demigods, then you reach VAICUNTHA, then - Goloka. BRAHMA-Madhava.

 

***Dear Kailasa, I humbly suggest to you that you do not have a clear understanding of Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta.

 

Dear boy write arguments. First you reach demigods, second - vaikuntha, then Goloka santa, then sambhoga Krisna lila - vipralambha Krisna lila, then you understand vipralambha gaura lila. IF you be follow SP you may go quikly. Because people in material platform then they "understand" sambhoga Krisna lila only. If person not go step by step it is only theory - gyana.

 

 

Dear boy write arguments. First you hear of Krsna-lila, then you want to feel like that, so you keep hearing, then you take diksa from guru, then guru will teach you how to train to get feelings of Vrindavana residents, then you progress along this path, and attain the various goals. Then you die, and if successful sadhana has been, you go straight to Vraja. Very simple.

 

 

SP speak not go from ISKCON. May be late thay be follow SP but now - not. It is fact.

 

 

Yet Srila Prabhupada himself left Gaudiya Matha and started ISKCON. You thought like this? You cannot be an authority in determining who is a true follower of Srila Prabhupada. Anyway, none of my business, I am only interested in productively discussing philosophy here.

 

 

***No, the Gosvamis did not write Sriamd Bhagavatam.

 

It is preach babaji? They is crazy.

 

 

Are you saying that the Gosvamis are crazy?

 

Kailaa, I'm happy to continue this discussion if you manage to bring sastric or Gosvami quotes to prove your points. I am not happy to continue if you endlessly claim to have evidence, speak rudely about other people, and contradict yourself.

 

If I had time, I could show you each and every fault in your argument and how you are contradicting yourself, but alas, I have little time!

[Gaurasundara]

Kailasa, I specifically told you to give me sastra quotes. You have not given. You have given SP, SBTP, AND SBT quotes. Not sufficient. Sastra quotes, please.

[Gaurasundara]

 

i'll try and explain with an allegory.

 

 

It was not a very good allegory. Why is it only possible for me to date the boss of Wal-mart if I am an employee? Are you saying that only Wal-mart employees can date their bosses? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

It is quite possible for me to be a Wal-mart "customer," who simply goes into the store to buy a pack of cigaretters, coincidentally meet the boss and ask her out on a date if she is impressed with my looks. OR I can coincidentally happen to meet her in a bar (without knowing she is a Wal-mart boss), pick her up and head back to my place for a night of fun. OR I can meet her simply by chance on the street (again without knowing she is a Wal-

mar boss) and I can just attempt to ask her out on a date.

 

Each of the above situations involve a "spontaneous" meeting, subsequent attractiveness and an endeavour to each a certain goal. There are countless other situations in which I can "meet" an attractive female boss of Wal-mart and make her my wife eventually. It is not the exclusive privilege of Wal-mart employees to do that.

 

I jest with you, shiva, because this allegory really is ridiculous and makes no sense in connection with the verse you quoted at the beginning of your post.

 

Let me explain them for you:

 

"In the absence of the necessary constituent elements of the bhakti process (such as anartha-nivrtti, nistha, ruci, etc.) one can never become fixed up in their own eternal sthayi-bhava (one of five principle mellows). In the absence of sthayi-bhava and its necessary elements, one can never become situated in their eternal rasa (siddha-deha)."

 

Let me assume that the translation is a correct one, in which case this is backed up by Rupa Gosvami:

 

adau sraddha tato sadhu-sango' tha bhajana-kriya

tato 'nartha-nivrttih syat tato nistha rucis tatah

athasaktis tato bhavas tatah premabhyudancati

sadhakanam ayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah

 

So now what is Srila Bhaktisiddhanta actually saying? Something different? No, rather, he agrees with Rupapada. In the absence of elements such as anartha-nivritti, nistha, ruci, asakti, bhava, etc., one cannot get fixed in their sthayi-bhava. Do you know what sthayi-bhava is? Here is what Srila Prabhupada has to say about it:

 

"By regularly rendering devotional service, one gradually becomes attached to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When that attachment is intensified, it becomes love of Godhead. The basic aspects of prema, when gradually increasing to different states, are affection, abhorrence, love, attachment, further attachment, ecstasy and great ecstasy. The gradual development of prema may be compared to different states of sugar. First there is the seed of the sugarcane, then sugarcane and then the juice extracted from the cane. When this juice is boiled, it forms liquid molasses, then solid molasses, then sugar, candy, rock candy and finally lozenges. All these stages combined are called sthayibhava, or continuous love of Godhead in devotional service. In addition to these stages, there are vibhava and anubhava." - CC Madhya 19.177-180

 

Therefore, sthayi-bhava is what is experienced at the time of attaining prema, and there are various other tastes that arise when sthayi-bhava is attained. So sthayi-bhava is clearly at an extremely high level of attainment, yet nowhere has anyone said that sthayi-bhava is an "easy" thing to attain, have they? So I fail to see the relevance of this quote to this argument. To me, at least, it seems irrelevant.

[Gaurasundara]

 

"However, these secret sports are not to be worshiped by those who experience male transformations in their senses, or by those who are in the moods of father, son and servant, for it would be contrary to their moods."

 

In simple language, Jiva Gosvami is saying that one should not contemplate/hear/talk about the secret sports [of gopi-lila] if one gets turned on by it. Why would anyone get turned on by it? Excessive lust? Shameless projection of mundane desires onto the spiritual?

 

 

that is your interpretation,he says worship,not contemplate/hear/talk.

 

 

Excuse me, here was I thinking that that the nine forms of devotion are all ways in which we can worship the Lord. Sravanam, kirtana, smaranam, padasevanam, arcanam, vandanam, etc., these are not ways in which we worship Krishna? Very strange.

 

 

he is not saying if one is attracted by lust one is not qualified to hear or contemplate,again that is your take.

 

 

The English is clear. We already have problems with a non-English speaker (Kailasa) so it would be nice if the English is clearly readable. Please try to read the original simple English and not impose one's own interpretations onto it. The meaning is clear.

 

 

he is saying that if you have a male body,you cannot enter into that mode of worship.

 

 

Very good. Only females are eligible to enter upon the path of raganuga-bhakti. I'm sure this will be a very popular idea with the feminist class of ISKCON.

 

 

if you have male transformations,or male reactions,

as all males do naturally,then you cannot worship

Radha Krsna as a female.

 

 

Right. And did you know that the very first lesson that Krishna preaches in Bhagavad-gita is that "you are not the body"?

By the way, do you even see the illogic in your words? We have already established that the rasika pastimes of Krishna are meant to eradicate lust, so if a sadhaka does not get turned on by rasika-lila, he's quite eligible to hear and relish the sports of Krishna. Also, are you aware that a large number of Gosvamis and past acharyas for the most part were males who worshipped Radha-Krishna as females? Rupa Gosvami, Sanatana Gosvami, Raghunatha das Gosvami, Krsnadasa Kaviraja, Visvanatha, Narottama, these are all "men" who worshipped in the mood of a female.

 

 

and he says if your actual position is that of father son or servant also you cannot worship in that mode.

 

 

Er, well yes, that is actually what Jiva Gosvami is saying. He is saying that if one wants to enter upon the path of vatsalya or dasya-bhavas, then the rasika-pastimes are not suitable hearing. For vatsalya-upasakas they will take delight in bala-lila. Sakhya-upasakas will take delight in "cowherd" lila. This is obvious.

 

 

it has nothing whatsover to do with sadhana of any kind, if it did he would say so,it has to do with "worship"

or service,not sadhana.

 

 

What is sadhana, service and worship?

 

I cannot believe I am hearing this. The points that have been established so far are about raganuga-sadhana and vaidhi-sadhana. Rupa Gosvami says "pick whichever you like" depending on what you want to achieve.

 

 

It has nothing to do with the path of sadhana bhakti,

 

 

Er, yes it does, because Jiva Gosvmi (and Rupa Gosvami for that matter) are describing the path of sadhana, not sadhya. You seem to have got your terms a little mixed up here. Sadhana is sadhana, and sadhya is sadhya.

[Gaurasundara]

Could I ask a favour from our learned members here?

 

Can you kindly study the ideas, practices and precepts of raganuga-bhakti before attempting to discuss it?

 

Thank you.

[anadi]

 

Dear Gaurasundara Prabhu,

 

Sri Vaishnavas, Madhva Vaishnavas, and so on, are not obliged to respect Gaudiya commentaries as sastra. For them it is not sastra, and for us their guru's commentaries ar enot sastra either, although they are respectable and worthy of attention, etc. So in that way, Srila Prabhupada's and Srila Bhaktivinoda's commentaries are certainly sastra for their own respective lineages, but in another way it is not sastra.

 

 

 

Sastra does not depend on the vision of the conditioned soul, does not need be accepted by a sampradaya or person to be Sastra. Sastra is always true, only that Sastra present the truth in different gradation.

 

Many people write nowadays poems in praising Radha Krishna or commentaries to the Sastra. Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja says that they make books like capaties.

What is the value of their poems, what is the value of their commentaries if they didn't realize Radha Krishna?

Zero.

But if a person has realized the Divine Couple, than his poems and his commentaries are the projection of the transcendental sound which is not coming from this world into paper form. That is why we should see this commentaries as Sastra.

 

There is a tremendous difference between the same truth, when it is stated by the truthful person and by an aspiring truthful person.

 

When a realized person speaks she always follows Sastra and present different gradation of the truth according his type of realization and the acceptance of the listeners.

Accordingly are his writings which are to be seen as Sastra,

presenting different gradations of the truth.

 

Dear Anadiji, do you know who was the first ever person to regard Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur as the Seventh Gosvami?

 

 

 

No, please tell me if you have the evidence.

 

PS

In England I live in Congleton near to Manchester, but over the weekend I am in Birmingham in Gour Govinda Gaudia Math Temple in Handsworthwood Road.

Wher do you live in England?

[Guest guest]

His World Wide Preaching Mission: To Stop People From Leaving Srila Prabhupada’S Mission

A letter from His Grace Caitanya Candra das, Temple President, ISKCON Gadei Giri (former Temple President,ISKCON BBSR positively declare that His Divine Grace Srila Gour Govinda Swami Srila Gurudeva never met with His Holiness Narayana Maharaja of the Gaudiya Matha as alleged by H.H Narayana Maharaja and his followers.

For the clarification of misinformation

 

For The Gurus, Leaders and General Devotees of ISKCON, as well as H.H.B.V. Narayan Maharaj & his followers, as well as the followers of H.H.B.R. Sridhara Swami Maharaj

 

Srila Gurudev went to Puri to see how the management was going on in Bhakti Vedanta Ashrama of ISKCON, Puri. While coming back to Bhubaneswar he was informed by H.G. Mayapur Chandra Das, the-then President of Bhaktivedanta Ashram, Puri (Balia Panda) that H.H. Satswarup Das Goswami Maharaj is staying at Singhania Guest House (nearby Balia Panda). So Srila Gurudev developed desire to see him and went to Singhania Guest House. At that time Atmaram Das, Mayapur Chandra Das, Gurudev’s personal Sevak and myself were present there. Since Satswarup Das Goswami Maharaj was taking Prasad, Srila Gurudev waited for him in the waiting room. At that time a disciple of Srila S.S.D. Goswami Maharaj informed Srila Gurudev that H.H. Bhaktivedanta Narayan Maharaj was also staying there, but he was resting. I am surprised that how it is stated by H.H.B.V. Narayan Maharaj that our Gurudev met him and heard Harikatha from him. Srila Gurudev had, out of his mercy, not only once but every time from 1986 till his departure allowed me to accompany him to Puri. The only exception to this is that during the year 1995 Srila Gurudev went to Brahma Giri (Alarnath) with other devotees while I, myself and our Vice-President H.G. Adwaitacharya Das were remaining in Sri Krishna Balaram Temple, Bhubaneswar. That time also Srila Gurudev did not go to Puri. So how are these types of false statements made by H.H.B.V. Narayan Maharaj coming into the Internet?

 

Our Gurudev was born in a Vaishnava family and he remained in his maternal uncle’s house (Gadeigiri) which was also Vaishnava family. The deity of Srila Gurudev, Sri Gopaljiu was the presiding Deity of his meternal uncle’s family. Sri Gopaljiu Mandir was in a small village called Gadeigiri.

 

Our Gurudev was the real successor of his Guru H.D.G. A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, who appeared in the bonafide Guru Parampara of Sri Brahma Madhva Goudiya Sampradaya. Our Gurudev was following the instructions of his Guru Srila Prabhupada, and therefore, he did not consider it proper to leave ISKCON, though some of his western disciples put pressure on him to split up from ISKCON. Finally he left this world as an ISKCON Guru and G.B.C., but did not leave ISKCON.

 

My Gurudev differs from H.H.B.V. Narayan Maharaj in conception and philosophy etc. Srila Gurudev was true disciple, Sat Shisya of Srila Prabhupada. Many lecture taps of Srila Gurudev prove how he preached boldly and uncompromisingly against leaving ISKCON.

 

I remember that in the year 1993, in Sri Radha Govinda Mandir, Punchak, Jakarta (Indonesia), Srila Gurudev was giving a very deep philosophical class which the devotees were not able to understand. After the class he went to his room. At that time the Regional Secretary for Indonesia, a disciple of Srila Prabhupada named Sripad Gour Mandal Bhumi Prabhu followed him. Srila Gurudev, while sitting on his bed, told Goura Mandal Bhumi Prabhu: “do you know why I spoke deep Tattva? I did not speak for the general devotees. I know that they cannot understand what I spoke. But I spoke for you. I have come to teach the preacher. I spoke to you since you are translating the books of my Gurudev into the Indonesian language. You should not think that my Gurudev did not give us everything. We will have to understand it, how he has given us everything, But the devotees of Goudiya Math are saying that my Gurudev has given only A B C. It is really painful. It is hurting me. My Gurudev is not A B C Guru. He has given everything to us. Do you understand Gour Mandal?”

 

At the time of departure from this world, at Mayapur Srila Gurudev was preaching about Vipralambha Rasa to the listeners, and he was always giving stress on Viraha Rasa, quoting from Sriman Mahaprabhu’s Vipralambha Pastime. He was always saying Mahaprabhu, who is nondifferent from Krishna, came to teach us Krishna Viraha i.e. how to cry for Krishna. The real pleasure is in Krishna Viraha. Those disciples who could not understand the mood of Srila Gurudev they left Gurudev’s family.

 

Srila Gurudev also told so many times in his lectures at ISKCON, Bhubaneswar that Guru Tyagis (those who leave the lotus feet of Sri Guru), will never be delivered. What to speak about their deliverance, even the vultures will not eat their rotten flesh when they die.

 

Some of the disciples of Srila Gurudev went to Goudiya Math and took initiation from different Maharajs, At that moment Srila Gurudev expressed his grief and told that how can the Gurus in the Goudiya Math accept and reinitiate these devotees who are already initiated by himself? This is not Vaishnava etiquette. The devotees who are going to them are bewildered, but how is it that the Goudiya Gurus are not asking them to return to their original initiating Guru, or taking his permission for reinitiation? It is really painful. Srila Gurudev instructed the Sankirtan Devotees to rather stay underneath a tree but not in any Goudiya Math while traveling and distributing Srila Prabhupada’s books.

 

I got opportunities to serve Srila Gurudev in many different capacities since 1983. Srila Gurudev appointed me as Temple President of Sri Krishna Balaram Mandir, ISKCON Bhubaneswar in the year 1988. In 1993, in addition to this, I was also given the responsibility to be the Temple President of Sri Gopaljiu Temple, ISKCON, Gadeigiri, Orissa. Also in the year 1986 Srila Gurudev instructed me to manage the development of land purchased for ISKCON in Puri Baliapanda area. In 1995, in addition to all these managerial responsibilities Srila Gurudev instructed me to check the feasibility of development of land to be donated to ISKCON, in Berhampur Orissa, for a purpose of establishing an ISKCON Temple with the deities of their Lordships Sri Sri Sita Ram Laxman Hanuman and Sri Sri Radha Krishna Gouranga Mahaprabhu. My relationship with Srila Gurudev is very strong, and by his mercy I am able to understand his mood.

 

Srila Gurudev was not at all envious when the senior devotees, Gurus, G.B.C., leaders of ISKCON went to H.H.B.V. Narayan Maharaj in order to listen to Harikatha. But at the same time he did not appreciate any devotees from the ISKCON openly taking Sikhya from any Goudiya Guru. In the year 1994, Srila Gurudev went to meet H.H. Tripurari Swami with an intension to bring him back to ISKCON.

 

The only activities of Srila Gurudev was to speak Krishnakatha and to follow the instructions of his Gurudev. He was not at all involved in any politics or diplomatic games. He was very simple and having Vaishnava qualities, and therefore, many devotees came to seek his association. He was always saying, Viryabati Krishana Katha will generate immense Bhakti Shakti. Krishna Katha is extremely potent and will give life to one and all. He told that we should try to listen or speak Krishna Katha with a pure heart, free of Kapatya, duplicity, envy etc.

 

I may conclude here by saying that if we will all follow teaching and the mood of Srila Gurudev, then there will not remain any controversies, quarrelling, doubts, misconception etc. in Vaishnava society.

 

Srila Gurudev Ki Jaya

Srila Prabhupad Ki Jaya

Nitai Gour Premanande Haribol.

 

(Chaitanya Chandra Das)

Very lowly servant of

Sri Srimad GourGovinda Swami

Srila Gurudev.

 

[Guest guest]

gaurasundar wrote

 

kintu rahasya-lIlA tu pauruSa-vikAravad indriyaiH pitR-putra-dAsa-bhAvaiz ca nopAsyA svIya-bhAva-virodhAt | rahasyatvaM ca tasyAH kvacid alpAMzena kvacit tu sarvAMzeneti jJeyam || (Bhakti-sandarbha 338)

 

“However, these secret sports are not to be worshiped by those who experience male transformations in their senses, or by those who are in the moods of father, son and servant, for it would be contrary to their moods. Confidentiality is understood according to the partial or complete touching of limbs.”

 

Therefore, only those who are likely to be disturbed by rasa-lila are disqualified from hearing. This does not mean that all are disqualified, though. I have dealt with all these issues before in other threads.

 

 

 

Excuse me, here was I thinking that that the nine forms of devotion are all ways in which we can worship the Lord. Sravanam, kirtana, smaranam, padasevanam, arcanam, vandanam, etc., these are not ways in which we worship Krishna? Very strange.

 

 

In reply to:

--

 

he is not saying if one is attracted by lust one is not qualified to hear or contemplate,again that is your take.

 

 

--

 

The English is clear. We already have problems with a non-English speaker (Kailasa) so it would be nice if the English is clearly readable. Please try to read the original simple English and not impose one's own interpretations onto it. The meaning is clear.

 

 

 

 

jiva makes it clear by including 'worship' as being that

thing done by those in the rasa of father,son,servant or lover,this is what he is alluding to ,direct worship through

rasa, or else he wouldn't have mentioned that.

 

as far as the male thing, if it was lust in general he was talking about, he would have said lust,he makes a point of specifying the male 'transformation', does this mean

if females are lusty they are qualified to hear,but not males ?

 

No.

 

The problem is you are doing what has been advised you do not,you have no experience of that stage yet are trying

to give comment and instruction on it, impossible

and waste of time.

[Guest guest]

gaurasundara said

In reply to:

--

 

if you have male transformations,or male reactions,

as all males do naturally,then you cannot worship

Radha Krsna as a female.

 

 

--

 

Right. And did you know that the very first lesson that Krishna preaches in Bhagavad-gita is that "you are not the body"?

By the way, do you even see the illogic in your words? We have already established that the rasika pastimes of Krishna are meant to eradicate lust, so if a sadhaka does not get turned on by rasika-lila, he's quite eligible to hear and relish the sports of Krishna. Also, are you aware that a large number of Gosvamis and past acharyas for the most part were males who worshipped Radha-Krishna as females? Rupa Gosvami, Sanatana Gosvami, Raghunatha das Gosvami, Krsnadasa Kaviraja, Visvanatha, Narottama, these are all "men" who worshipped in the mood of a female.

 

 

 

the things described by jiva goswami are not what you think,

it is not anout mental sadhan,it is about direct rasa.

[Guest guest]

gaurasunda said

 

i'll try and explain with an allegory.

 

 

--

 

 

 

 

you left out the other part

 

"Devotees who are still on the platform of following regulated scriptural injunctions (vaidha-bhaktas) cannot yet understand anything about the exalted stage of the raganugas, practitioners of spontaneous devotional service. Those who possess weak faith cannot yet understand the realm of the rasikas, relaters of pure transcendental mellows."

 

MahaDeva shiva says Vyasa the author of the Bhagavatam

may or may not understand it's true import,

Vyasa wrote the Bhagavatam yet Shiva tells us

that still he may not know the truth of the Bhagavatam,

why is this ?

 

Then Bhaktisddhanta tells us that only the person on the highest level can understand anything about that.

 

why is this ?

 

In both cases you can read the written word of these shastras,the Bhagavatam is there,the other rasa shastra is there, you can study them,day and night.

 

but Vyasa may or may not know,He wrote the actual words

yet he may not know what they mean ?

 

this is the situation,the written words are containing

an inner dimension,a hidden vision, not apparent

to the reader of the literal words,even the author of those words may not know the truth of them, what to speak of the

rest of us ?

 

for you to insist that "oh i have read these things,rupa says this and that,Jiva says that and this, what is the difficulty ?"

"It is all this way and that way,just as the books describe,therefore since i understand these written things,

i must be on the higest level,because only those on the highest level can understand them".

 

this is the path of delusion, we are warned repeatedly

that what is nectar to one can be like poison to another,

the rasa shastra ,when the inner hidden meaning is revealed,

is like nectar to the devotee, to the unqualified who reads and thinks he understands the literal words as all in all,

misess entirely the inner confidential import,

then because of this thinks himself as a highest stage performer

of bhakti,then gives up Vaidhi prematurely,

is surely living in a fools paradise and these

writings are like poison to him.

 

the allegory i gave is to show that Vaidhi Bhakti

is like having a job following the rules ,

Raganuga is when that job becomes not only irrelevant,

but a distraction and impediment , the person who

marries the owner has a different duty, the old duty

would be taking up time doing a job no longer required

to serve the owner,both the job and the marriage are serving the owner,but the marriage requires you to leave the job, the owner needs your personal attention

not you performing your old job, but to believe that

without first meeting the owner and becoming engaged that you can leave your previous job and still get paid

is foolish.

 

The raganuga stage is not what is written down in the shastra,if it was then we would not be told repeatedly

that only the highest level devotee can understand

anything about raganuga,if the literal descriptions

were all in all then Vyasa would positively know what he wrote about, but the fact is we are told the exact opposite,

the inner truth,is not the external words.

[Guest guest]

gaura sundara said

In reply to:

--

 

he is saying that if you have a male body,you cannot enter into that mode of worship.

 

 

--

 

Very good. Only females are eligible to enter upon the path of raganuga-bhakti. I'm sure this will be a very popular idea with the feminist class of ISKCON.

 

 

In reply to:

--

 

if you have male transformations,or male reactions,

as all males do naturally,then you cannot worship

Radha Krsna as a female.

 

 

--

 

Right. And did you know that the very first lesson that Krishna preaches in Bhagavad-gita is that "you are not the body"?

By the way, do you even see the illogic in your words? We have already established that the rasika pastimes of Krishna are meant to eradicate lust, so if a sadhaka does not get turned on by rasika-lila, he's quite eligible to hear and relish the sports of Krishna. Also, are you aware that a large number of Gosvamis and past acharyas for the most part were males who worshipped Radha-Krishna as females? Rupa Gosvami, Sanatana Gosvami, Raghunatha das Gosvami, Krsnadasa Kaviraja, Visvanatha, Narottama, these are all "men" who worshipped in the mood of a female.

 

 

In reply to:

--

 

and he says if your actual position is that of father son or servant also you cannot worship in that mode.

 

 

--

 

Er, well yes, that is actually what Jiva Gosvami is saying. He is saying that if one wants to enter upon the path of vatsalya or dasya-bhavas, then the rasika-pastimes are not suitable hearing. For vatsalya-upasakas they will take delight in bala-lila. Sakhya-upasakas will take delight in "cowherd" lila. This is obvious.

 

 

In reply to:

--

 

it has nothing whatsover to do with sadhana of any kind, if it did he would say so,it has to do with "worship"

or service,not sadhana.

 

 

--

 

What is sadhana, service and worship?

 

I cannot believe I am hearing this. The points that have been established so far are about raganuga-sadhana and vaidhi-sadhana. Rupa Gosvami says "pick whichever you like" depending on what you want to achieve.

 

 

In reply to:

--

 

It has nothing to do with the path of sadhana bhakti,

 

 

--

 

Er, yes it does, because Jiva Gosvmi (and Rupa Gosvami for that matter) are describing the path of sadhana, not sadhya. You seem to have got your terms a little mixed up here. Sadhana is sadhana, and sadhya is sadhya.

 

 

 

 

 

here we see you trying to give an inner meaning to these subjects that are really products of your imagination,

 

you mistake sadhana with direct service, Jiva goswami

is speaking about males being unable to serve as

females in rasa,you mistake that for thinking

that he is speaking about raganuga sadhana,mental

imaginings,that is a mistake, he is speaking on another

level entirely.

 

then you say something about not being your body,

again irrelevant to what jiva was speaking about,

If the body is not important can Arjuna have

the same rasa with Krsna as the queens of Dwarka ?

 

No,the body limits the rasa,a male can only have a certain

kind of rasa with Krsna,what jiva is speaking about is beyond

your experience,and you miss the point entirely.

 

Then you say that past acharyas worshipped Krsna as females while they were in male bodies .

 

Is this your experience of their lives ?

 

you know their minds ?

 

your limited understanding of their situation

is based on your inability to understand what they write,

you read the literal words,but the inner meaning in lost on you, without first being on their stage,you factually are unabel to even begin to understand their rasa and their

descriptions of rasa tatva.

 

again sadhana is not the same as rasika seva.

[Guest guest]

without first coming to the level of raganuga all of your ideas on the topic are useless.

 

First understand that these things are not what they appear to be,then try and leave aside your preconceptions of what these topics are really about, if you cling to a conception

of reality when you are unable to undertand it fully,

then that clinging will be an impediment to understanding

of the true reality.

 

The situation of raganuga is "what is giving service

on the highest level ?"

 

Is it the same thing as what i think the highest service is

when i am in the conditioned stage ?

 

If a person is blinded will his description of

what something looks like be the same when he gains his sight ?

 

No, the previous conception is impeded by the inability

to see correctly,the vision when corrected can give the

true situation an accurate description.

 

The same goes for topics of intimate rasa with Radha Krsna,

Trying to describe what that is and is not is not possible

unless you know from experience what that is.

 

simply repeating the words of shastra and thinking that you understand what is being said is not enough.

 

Real raganuga,real intimate rasa is something that is experienced ,without that experience of actual association

and intimacy you cannot possibly understand what it is.

 

the shastra points the way,the reality is only available

through experience,book learning is not enough,

Mental imagining of rasa is just that,mental imagining,

real rasa is about relationship,it is about

actual association with god,not simply imagining

what it would be like in your mental conception

of Vrndavana.

 

Real raganuga ,real rasa is about you and god,together,

reciprocating at all times, it is not sadhana or

mental imagining,it is you actually being with god,

speaking to God,face to face association.

 

that is the raganuga stage in reality,god is always

here,at the very moment you become qualified god

can enter your life,God doesn't have to

wait until the next life,the next birth, the moment you are qualified we are told, at the exact moment, Radha Krsna

rushes into your life,directly,personally,

it is not about meditation on rasa,or meditation

on lila,it is about God entering your life,

here and now,the only thing that is needed is your ability

and qualification.

 

first you need to becoame educated as to what is it Radha

Krsna wants from you,what it is that Madhurya rasa really is,when that is fully appreciated,when all illusion and misconceptions are gone, then you are ready,

then Radha Dasyam opens to you,then the meaning of

following in the foosteps of the damsels of Vraja

takes on it's true inner meaning, it isn't about imitating them,it is about serving their desires,following

their example of giving up everything ,giving up

their husbands,their position,at that stage one

is eligible for serving the gopis,directly.

[Gaurasundara]

 

Sastra does not depend on the vision of the conditioned soul, does not need be accepted by a sampradaya or person to be Sastra. Sastra is always true, only that Sastra present the truth in different gradation.

 

 

Dear Anadiji, I certainly agree with all that you have said. However, my point was simply in response to Kailasa's argument that the soul fell from Goloka. As far as I know, no one from any other sampradaya accepts this particular idea, and to prove this would require sastric quotes. We cannot present Prabhupada's or Bhaktisiddhanta's purports to other people and expect them to accept it as evidence.

 

 

No, please tell me if you have the evidence.

 

 

It was Shishir Kumar Ghosh, the editor of the Amrita Bazaar Patrika, I believe. Other people may agree with this praise, but I do not think a compliment of a materialist is a pointer towards Srila Bhaktivinoda's actual position. I hear that several schools hold that Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraga Gosvami was actually the Seventh Gosvami. I have no idea why they think like that, it may be true or not I don't know. Anyway how it is commonly that the Gosvamis were six and so I accept that on my head.

 

 

Wher do you live in England?

 

 

Oh you live quite far. /images/graemlins/frown.gif I live in North London, about 20-30mins drive from Bhaktivedanta Manor.

[Gaurasundara]

 

jiva makes it clear by including 'worship' as being that thing done by those in the rasa of father,son,servant or lover,this is what he is alluding to ,direct worship through rasa, or else he wouldn't have mentioned that.

 

 

Shiva, Jiva Gosvami is pretty clear in saying that hearing (or worship) of secret Gopi-lila is not for those who are in the moods of father, son and servant because it would be contrary to their moods. Why would it be contrary to their moods? Because, as I said, they will focus on bala-lila, or some other lila that is specific to their aspired bhava.

I couldn't really care what you think he is "alluding" to, I am much more interested in reading his statement in the proper context. As I said before, the English is abundantly clear and does not need interpretation.

 

 

as far as the male thing, if it was lust in general he was talking about, he would have said lust,he makes a point of specifying the male 'transformation', does this mean if females are lusty they are qualified to hear,but not males ?

 

 

I've addressed this before as well. Male transformations refers to experiencing lust as a result of hearing gopi-lila. This is an adverse reaction, and thus this hearer should not continue hearing gopi-lila.

It was your idea that males are not eligible for worshipping Radha-Krishna in the mood of a female, I have never heard that stated anywher ein all the Gaudiya literature that I've read, have you?

 

 

The problem is you are doing what has been advised you do not,you have no experience of that stage yet are trying to give comment and instruction on it, impossible

and waste of time.

 

 

As far as "doing," no one has advised not to do it. I have already given clear directions from Rupa Gosvami on this. Don't make me repeat them. As far as instruction, I have never presented myself as an instructor anywhere, do you think I have done this? Funny how you are also trying to give comment and instruction when you obviously do not understand all the evidence that has been presented? As far as a waste of time, I think not:

 

vikrIDitaM vraja-vadhUbhir idaM ca viSNoH |

zraddhAnvito yaH zRNuyAd atha varNayed vA ||

bhaktiM parAM bhagavati parilabhya kAmaM |

hRd-rogam Azv apahinoty acireNa dhIraH || (bhag. 10.33.39)

 

“One who faithfully hears or describes the loving sports of Sri Krishna and the young maidens of Vraja will quickly drive away the heart-disease of lust, become sober, and attain supramundane devotion of the Lord.”

[Gaurasundara]

 

the things described by jiva goswami are not what you think, it is not anout mental sadhan,it is about direct rasa.

 

 

Shiva, I am aware that you have participated in several discussions along these lines before, and in each and every one of them adequate evidence was presented to show that the path of raganuga-sadhana is actually mental-sadhana as far as lila-smarana goes. I do not know why you do not accept the various scriptural quotes that back this up (never mind the actual directions of Mahaprabhu!) but please do not waste my time here.

[Gaurasundara]

 

here we see you trying to give an inner meaning to these subjects that are really products of your imagination,

 

 

I don't think that I have presented my imaginations anywhere. Rather I have provided the Gosvamis direct words and clarified them where necessary when questoned? If you wish to propose that I am speculating, then please show and explain where I have done this exactly.

 

Rather, I have seen you come up with some really weird ideas. Devotees with male bodies cannot enter into that mode of worship? Come on!

 

 

you mistake sadhana with direct service,

 

 

Again, I don't think so. All my comments so far have been related to the practice of sadhana and not sadhya. This is evident. If you knew anything about raganuga-sadhana, you would know this. The very fact that you have just presented an erroneous objection itself shows that you have not understood even what I am saying, let alone the Gosvamis.

Needless to say, I cannot accept your interpretations of the Gosvamis words because of this fault. By the way, could you kindly do me that "favour" that I asked of all memebers, before proceeding with this discussion?

 

 

Jiva goswami is speaking about males being unable to serve as females in rasa,you mistake that for thinking

that he is speaking about raganuga sadhana,mental imaginings,that is a mistake, he is speaking on another

level entirely.

 

 

Shiva, no Gaudiya acharya anywhere in the Gaudiya sampradaya has ever said that males ar eunable to serve as females in rasa, as far as I am aware. if even one acharya has said this, then please tell me who they are and present their words on this subject.

 

The whole point of raganuga-sadhana is to serve Yugala-Kisora as female manjaris in rasa, at least if that is what you desire. The example was given of several Gosvamis and Acharyas, they were all "males" who worshipped Radha-Krishna as females. Are you saying, thus, that they were not males?

 

By the way, see Srila Prabhupada's words in the Introduction to 'Teachings of Lord Caitanya':

 

"However, Lord Caitanya's greatest gift was His teaching that Krsṇa can be actually treated as one's lover. In this relationship the Lord is so much attached that He expresses His inability to reciprocate. Kṛṣṇa was so obliged to the gopis, the cowherd girls of Vṛndavana, that He felt unable to return their love. "I cannot repay your love," He told them. "I have no more assets to return." Thus devotional service is performed on this excellent platform, and knowledge of the devotee's relationship to Kṛṣṇa as lover and beloved was given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu."

 

According to you we must ignore this "greatest gift" simply because, again according to you, "Jiva goswami is speaking about males being unable to serve as females in rasa."

 

"If we want real transcendental love, we have to transfer our love to the supreme lovable object — the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is the basic principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness."

 

And how do we do that? Sadhana.

 

And let me also remind you of the quote that started this whole sub-discussion:

 

"One should also always meditate upon the affairs between Radha and Kṛṣṇa in the transcendental world. One should think of Radha and Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours a day and eternally engage in Their service ... By following the mood of the associates and friends of Radharaniī, one can ultimately achieve the perfectional stage and be transferred to Goloka Vṛndavana, the transcendental abode of Kṛṣṇa." - TLC Chap. 31

 

 

then you say something about not being your body,

again irrelevant to what jiva was speaking about,

 

 

It was certainly irrelevant to what Jiva Gosvami was speaking about, but only because you wished to present a fanciful idea that only those without male bodies may enter that mode of worship.

 

 

If the body is not important can Arjuna have the same rasa with Krsna as the queens of Dwarka ?

 

 

I haven't heard of Arjuna being married to Krishna anywhere in any sastra whatsoever, have you?

 

 

No,the body limits the rasa,a male can only have a certain kind of rasa with Krsna,what jiva is speaking about is beyond your experience,and you miss the point entirely.

 

 

If raganuga-sadhana is beyond our experience, then why did all the Gosvamis urge all of us conditioned souls to practice it?

 

And which rasa can males only have with Krishna?

 

 

Then you say that past acharyas worshipped Krsna as females while they were in male bodies. Is this your experience of their lives ?

 

 

Those past Acharyas who practised raganuga-bhakti in manjari-bhava certainly worshipped Krishna as females. Those Acharyas such as Gauridasa Pandit and Hridaya Caitanya worshipped Krishna as "small boys" because they were aspiring to attain sakhya-bhava.

 

You become what you worship. Does that make sense to you?

 

 

you know their minds ?

 

 

They have presented their "minds" in their books, and I am simply trying to read what they have written in their books.

 

By the way, Sri Caitanya mano 'bhistham. Rupa Gosvami certainly knew Caitanya's mind, and all over his books you find him telling people to worship in manjari-bhava. What does that tell you?

 

 

your limited understanding of their situation

is based on your inability to understand what they write,

you read the literal words,but the inner meaning in lost on you, without first being on their stage,you factually are unabel to even begin to understand their rasa and their

descriptions of rasa tatva.

 

 

It is not for you to judge whether I can understand what they write, as all I have done is present their abundantly clear words. Rather, it seems to be you who cannot understand what they say, but instead to proceed to present fanciful interpretations of their words which they never actually said. Males cannot worship in the moods of females? Arjuna had the same rasa as the Queens of Dvaraka? Corking about sthayi-bhava? And then you say I cannot understand? Well...

 

 

again sadhana is not the same as rasika seva.

 

 

I never said it was. Ragatmika-bhakti and raganuga-bhakti are two entirely different things, you know.

[Guest guest]

SB 10.87.38

 

"The illusory material nature attracts the minute living entity to embrace her, and as a result he assumes forms composed of her qualities. Subsequently, he loses all his spiritual qualities and must undergo repeated deaths. You, however, avoid the material energy in the same way that a snake abandons its old skin. Glorious in Your possession of eight mystic perfections, You enjoy unlimited opulences."

 

SB 11.2.37

 

"When the living entity is attracted by the material energy, which is separate from Krsna, he is overpowered by fear. Because he is separated from the Supreme Personality of Godhead by the material energy, his conception of life is reversed. In other words, instead of being the eternal servant of Krsna, he becomes Krsna's competitor. This is called viparyayo ’smatiu. To nullify this mistake, one who is actually learned and advanced worships the Supreme Personality of Godhead as his spiritual master, worshipful Deity and source of life. He thus worships the Lord by the process of unalloyed devotional service."

 

CC Madhya 22.24

 

"The living entity is bound around the neck by the chain of maya because he has forgotten that he is eternally a servant of Krsna."

 

 

"Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore the illusory energy (maya) gives him all kinds of misery in his material existence.” ( Madhya 20.117 )

 

It is not sastra?

[Guest guest]

***Kailasa, it is clear that you have not even attempted to study the works of the Six Gosvamis, but are intent on maintaining your own conclusions without much evidence.

 

I am speak for you read Madhurya Kadambini. And now bring for you citation, read attentively.

 

***Kailasa, I do not have the time or resources to run around checking up "evidence" from books that you say contain evidence.

 

Ok I am bring for you.

 

****If you have the evidence, please post it right here so we can all see. In any case, Rupa Gosvami insists that there are two separate paths that awaken two kinds of bhava. I fail to see how Srimad Visvanatha would contradict that.

 

Sastra wery clear answer for you, read citation.

 

***Speak for yourself, only. There are plenty of people who are able to follow the path of raganuga-bhakti. You may not agree with them, but then I doubt that they would agree with your views either.

 

With out sadana no any raganuga, it is obvious.

 

***Again, sadhana-bhakti is split into two; vaidhi-bhakti-sadhana and raganuga-bhakti-sadhana. Which "sadhana-bhakti" do you want to follow, that is the question!

 

sadhana then sadhana-raganuga then raganuga

 

I am speak about pure raganuga.

 

***No Kailasa, I have quoted from Rupa Gosvami and presented evidence from his writings to backup my points.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif You not understand. As you stay "raganuga" if you not know nothing? Needs sadhana, then raganuga. SRG write about this in YOUR citation.

 

***Do you think you could kindly quote verses to prove your points so that this discussion can progress, instead of accusing other people of being speculators?

 

Yes, yes I am bring for you this points.

 

***You clearly said that "worship Vaikuntha" then people go to "forever Goloka." However, the Caitanya-caritamrta (translated by Srila Prbahupada, by the way) clearly states that each form of worship will lead to a different goal. It is not progressive.

 

O me Lord, you do not able jump direct in Goloka, it is no possible. Read CC, you not read CC.

 

***Is this what you really understand from a verse in which Krishna Himself clearly states that He is not attracted by vidhi-bhakti?

 

Vidhi-bhakti it is start, then all anothers bhakti. I am write about this so mutch.

 

***Please release yourself from this dubious idea that one must first follow vaidhi-bhakti and then raganuga.

 

It is no me idea, I am bring citation for you right understanding.

 

***It has been already shown numerous times that it is a matter of choice for the sadhaka.

***If you do not agree, you are not rupanuga.

 

First understand who is rupanuga.

 

***By the way, can you show me where Narottama das Thakura says such a thing?

 

Yes I am bring citation for you, Gaurasundara. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

***I am sure that you agree with Rupa Gosvami, that is why you are continually establishing deviant ideas that have been shown to be deviant when his words have been presented quite clearly for the whole world to see.

 

It is babaji deviant.

 

***By the way, you did not answer me if Rupa Gosvami is a true guru or not?

 

He is true guru but needs real true guru, readings no possible understand SRG.

 

***Sadhana-bhakti is two types, vaidhi and raganuga. Vaidhi and raganuga both called "sadhana-bhakti."

 

In sadana man foolow regulations, then he is know own deha and go sadana-raganuga, then pure raganuga. I am write about pure raganuga. In his site they needs write "sadhana-raganuga", so mutch people write - "raganuga".

 

***So now raganuga-bhaktas are all sahajiyas?

 

Raganuga-bhaktas not sahajiyas, but sahajiyas not gaganugas.

 

***Kailasa, talking in BIG LETTERS does not prove that you are correct. You have no proof for your ideas and you have not shown any evidence. First find evidence, then speak.

 

It is obvious, but I am bring for you evidence.

 

***Right. Which books of the Gosvamis have you read?

 

Discuss about Hansadutta? You read? You has discuss about all books Gosvami? It is so mutch.

 

***I forgot to mention that this girl is an initiated disciple of Sivarama Swami.

 

No I am not mention this.

 

***So even with a "true guru" and a "true parampara," she still didn't have a clue what Mahaprabhu's mission was all about.

 

I am do not know about you speking. She do sadhana? - chant holy name? So match babaji no has any realisation, needs time for realisation, if you in true parampara may 1 life need, in other case ???

 

***Kailasa, how do you know if my friends are degraded aparadhis?

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif And you degradade some.

 

***For a start, you do not know who they are. If you did know them, then you will know that they are neither degraded nor aparadhis. Rather, you are the one who seems to be committing Vaishnava-aparadha by deliberately criticising genuine Vaishnavas who have taken their sadhana with serious committment and devotion.

 

No I am write facts, I am speak for theyr liders, they disciples in Russia do no good things. Any way they do not use name SP, in material interests.

 

***You are not in a position to judge other people unless you are yourself perfect. You haven't even present one argument from sastra to back up what you are saying. Please go find evidence.

 

Do not worry.

 

 

***Yes.

 

You not able follow raganuga first it is foolisnes. You do not know nothing, but - "I am raganuga". No you not raganuga, and you needs understand sastra properly.

 

***Oh right. You have a better understanding of sastra than Tripurari Swami, BA Paramadvaiti, BG Narasingha, and all?

 

I am not read TS and anothers. I am do not know. I am write for TS far from SP, it is yes.

 

***if yes, then why have you not shown even one small piece of evidence for your talks?

 

Do not hurry, do not worry. Do not harry, if you RIGTH, do not worry.

 

***You do not know read Rupa Goswami SP or not, then you cheat.

***I know for a fact that Rupa Gosvami has never read Srila Prabhupada's books.

 

No you not has this fact.

 

***No. Ramananda Raya is Visakha-sakhi in Vraja-lila. He is Ramananda Raya in Gaura-lila.

 

Gaura Gannodesa dipika write Ramananda is Arjuna. I am answer in citation.

 

***Dear boy write arguments.

 

I am write arguments.

 

***First you hear of Krsna-lila, then you want to feel like that, so you keep hearing, then you take diksa from guru, then guru will teach you how to train to get feelings of Vrindavana residents, then you progress along this path, and attain the various goals. Then you die, and if successful sadhana has been, you go straight to Vraja. Very simple.

 

Your knowlege wery small and not correct. You do not has any feelings for Krisna lila in start. You do not know who is means "rati" for example. Any tama guna you thing "it is rati". Any not clean sraddha many man - "ooo, prema". It is no right way.

 

***Yet Srila Prabhupada himself left Gaudiya Matha and started ISKCON. You thought like this?

 

It is no GM, GM die. ISKCON is GM. Now "GM" it is only name. SP acarya.

 

***You cannot be an authority in determining who is a true follower of Srila Prabhupada.

 

SP speak about Hid desires. SP autority.

 

***No, the Gosvamis did not write Sriamd Bhagavatam.

 

***It is preach babaji? They is crazy.

 

***Are you saying that the Gosvamis are crazy?

 

Read attentively babaji crazy. Do not offend Gosvamis, gaura.

 

***Kailaa, I'm happy to continue this discussion if you manage to bring sastric or Gosvami quotes to prove your points. I am not happy to continue if you endlessly claim to have evidence, speak rudely about other people, and contradict yourself.

 

 

OK. PLS continue. I am bring citation for you.

 

***If I had time, I could show you each and every fault in your argument and how you are contradicting yourself,

 

Ok, I am be glad.

 

***but alas, I have little time!

 

Do not follow babaji. Any way it is no mutch serious.

[Guest guest]

BRS

 

In this connection, in the Eleventh Canto of SB, Lord Krsna personally instructs Uddhava like this: "The state of being established in My personal form is called santa-rasa, and without being situated in this position, no one can advance to actual pure devotional service." In other words, no one can be situated in the personal feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead without being situated at least in santa-rasa.

 

Madhurya Kadambini

 

The very life of

this creeper is a favorable attitude to devotion and the Lord. Like a

touchstone, its very presence makes the heart lose its iron-like

material qualities and acquire spiritual qualities of pure gold

(bhakti). Having sprouted, growing upwards, that creeper then unfurls

two leaves, which are the splendour of sadhana bhakti. The first leaf

is called klesa-ghni [dissolution of suffering] and the second is

called subha-da [attainment of auspicious qualities]. The smooth upper

surface of the two leaves, in a preemenent position by the

characteristic being generated from spontaneous thirst for everything

pertaining to the Lord, and by genuine affection for the Lord in a

particular relationship (yesam aham priya atma sutas ca - I am their

own dear son) is the jurisdiction of the King called raga.

 

The rough lower surface of the leaves, being in a somewhat lower

position because its activities are generated out of scriptural rules,

and because spontaneous, deep affection for the Lord is lacking due to

absence of a pure relationship with the Lord, is the domain of the

King called vaidha. However, both raga and vaidha bhakti equally share

the qualities of klesa-ghni (disappearance of suffering and sin) and

subha-da (appearance of auspicious qualities).

 

From the creeper of bhakti which first sprouted two leaves during

sadhana-bhakti, now suddenly appear many smooth petals in the form of

anubhavas (the symptoms of ecstasy) attached to the flower of bhava.

These anubhavas are filled with the devotional processes such as

hearing and chanting, and shine brilliantly at every moment. First

forming the flower called bhava, finally they bring forth the fruit

called prema. But the creeper of bhakti is most astonishing for though

its leaves, bud, flower and fruit mature into the succeeding form,

they do not giving up their original forms. Together they shine in

newer and newer ways.

 

From CC

 

"By practicing this regulated devotional service under the direction of the spiritual master, certainly one awakens his dormant love of Godhead. This process is called abhidheya."

 

"If one develops his love of Godhead and becomes attached to the lotus feet of Krsna, gradually he loses his attachment to everything else.

 

"Love of Godhead is so exalted that it is considered to be the fifth goal of human life. By awakening one’s love of Godhead, one can attain the platform of conjugal love, tasting it even during the present span of life.

 

"The Supreme Lord, who is greater than the greatest, becomes submissive to even a very insignificant devotee because of his devotional service. It is the beautiful and exalted nature of devotional service that the infinite Lord becomes submissive to the infinitesimal living entity because of it. In reciprocal devotional activities with the Lord, the devotee actually enjoys the transcendental mellow quality of devotional service.

 

"One’s relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, activities in terms of that relationship, and the ultimate goal of life [to develop love of God]—these three subjects are explained in every aphorism of the Vedanta-sutra, for they form the culmination of the entire Vedanta philosophy.”

 

CC Adi 7. 142-146

 

"By regularly rendering devotional service, one gradually becomes attached to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When that attachment is intensified, it becomes love of Godhead.

 

"The basic aspects of prema, when gradually increasing to different states, are affection, abhorrence, love, attachment, further attachment, ecstasy and great ecstasy.

 

"The gradual development of love may be compared to different states of sugar. First there is the seed of the sugarcane, then sugarcane and then the juice extracted from the cane. When this juice is boiled, it forms a liquid molasses, then a solid molasses, then sugar, candy, rock candy and finally lozenges.

 

CC Madhya 19. 177-179

 

"My dear Sanatana, please now hear about the regulative principles for the execution of devotional service. By this process, one can attain the highest perfection of love of Godhead, which is the most desirable treasure.

 

" When transcendental devotional service by which love for Krsna is attained is executed by the senses, it is called sadhana-bhakti, or the regulative discharge of devotional service. Such devotion eternally exists within the heart of every living entity. The awakening of this eternal devotion is the potentiality of devotional service in practice."

 

"The spiritual activities of hearing, chanting, remembering and so forth are the natural characteristics of devotional service. The marginal characteristic is that it awakens pure love for Krsna.

 

"Pure love for Krsna is eternally established in the hearts of living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, the living entity naturally awakens.

 

"There are two processes of practical devotional service. One is regulative devotional service, and the other is spontaneous devotional service.

 

"Those who have not attained the platform of spontaneous attachment in devotional service render devotional service under the guidance of a bona fide spiritual master according to the regulative principles mentioned in the revealed scriptures. According to the revealed scriptures, this kind of devotional service is called vaidhi bhakti.

 

"Spontaneous service is not artificial."

 

Madhya 22.108-113

 

"There are two processes by which one may execute this raganuga bhakti–external and internal. When self-realized, the advanced devotee externally remains like a neophyte and executes all the sastric injunctions, especially hearing and chanting. However, within his mind, in his original purified self-realized position, he serves Krsna in Vrndavana in his particular way. He serves Krsna twenty-four hours, all day and night.

 

" The advanced devotee who is inclined to spontaneous loving service should follow the activities of a particular associate of Krsna in Vrndavana. He should execute service externally as a regulative devotee as well as internally from his self-realized position. Thus he should perform devotional service both externally and internally.

 

"Krsna has many types of devotees–some are servants, some are friends, some are parents, and some are conjugal lovers. Those who are situated in one of these attitudes of spontaneous love according to their choice are considered to be on the path of spontaneous loving service.

 

" Let me offer my respectful obeisances again and again to those who always eagerly meditate upon the Supreme Personality of Godhead as a husband, son, friend, brother, father or intimate friend.

 

"If one engages in spontaneous loving service to the Lord, his affection at the lotus feet of Krsna gradually increases.

 

----------------

 

" In the beginning there must be faith. Then one becomes interested in associating with pure devotees. Thereafter one is initiated by the spiritual master and executes the regulative principles under his orders. Thus one is freed from all unwanted habits and becomes firmly fixed in devotional service. Thereafter, one develops taste and attachment. This is the way of sadhana-bhakti, the execution of devotional service according to the regulative principles. Gradually emotions intensify, and finally there is an awakening of love. This is the gradual development of love of Godhead for the devotee interested in Krsna consciousness.

 

" The spiritually powerful message of Godhead can be properly discussed only in a society of devotees, and it is greatly pleasing to hear in that association. If one hears from devotees, the way of transcendental experience quickly opens to him, and gradually he attains firm faith that in due course develops into attraction and devotion.

 

----------------

 

One cannot attain the goal of life without the mercy of Balarama. Sri Narottama dasa Thakura therefore says, nitaiyera karuea habe, vraje radha-Krsna pabe: when one receives the mercy of Balarama, Nityananda, one can attain the lotus feet of Radha and Krsna very easily.

 

------------------

 

This gradual development of devotional service is described by Sri Narottama dasa Thakura as follows:

 

 

"When will there be eruptions on my body as soon as I chant the name of Lord Caitanya, and when will there be incessant torrents of tears as soon as I chant the holy names Hare Krsna? When will Lord Nityananda be merciful toward me and free me from all desires for material enjoyment? When will my mind be completely freed from all contamination of desires for material pleasure? Only at that time will it be possible for me to understand Vrndavana. Only if I become attached to the instructions given by the six Gosvames, headed by Rupa Gosvame and Raghunatha dasa Gosvame, will it be possible for me to understand the conjugal love of Radha and Krsna.”

 

By attachment to the devotional service of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu one immediately comes to the ecstatic position. When he develops his love for Nityananda Prabhu he is freed from all attachment to the material world, and at that time he becomes eligible to understand the Lord's pastimes in Vrndavana. In that condition, when one develops his love for the six Gosvamis, he can understand the conjugal love between Radha and Krsna. These are the different stages of a pure devotee's promotion to conjugal love in the service of Radha and Krsna in an intimate relationship with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

"love for Nityananda Prabhu - greatnes God.

 

 

----------------

 

"When will there be eruptions on my body as soon as I chant the name of Lord Caitanya, and when will there be incessant torrents of tears as soon as I chant the holy names Hare Krsna? When will Lord Nityananda be merciful toward me and free me from all desires for material enjoyment? When will my mind be completely freed from all contamination of desires for material pleasure? Only at that time will it be possible for me to understand Vrndavana. Only if I become attached to the instructions given by the six Gosvamis, headed by Rupa Gosvami and Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, will it be possible for me to understand the conjugal love of Radha and Krsna."

 

It vipralambha.

 

***

 

Lord Caitanya. Lord Caitanya is undoubtedly Krsna Himself, and He is always nondifferent from Srimati Radharani. But the emotion technically called vipralambha-bhava, which the Lord adopted for confidential reasons

 

***

 

Rather, vipralambha-seva, thinking of Krsna in separation, as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu did, is far better than serving Krsna directly. Thus of all the devotees who have developed unalloyed devotional love for Krsna, the gopis are most exalted, and out of all these exalted gopis, Srimati Radharani is the highest. No one can excel the devotional service of Srimati Radharani. Indeed, even Krsna cannot understand the attitude of Srimati Radharani; therefore He took Her position and appeared as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, just to understand Her transcendental feelings.

In this way Srila Rupa Gosvami gradually concludes that Srimati Radharani is the most exalted devotee.

 

***

 

Lord Caitanya taught people in general the method of vipralambha-seva, which is the method of rendering service unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the feeling of separation. The six Gosvamis also taught worship of Kanea in the feeling of the gopes in separation. The prayers of Srinivasacarya about the Gosvamis explain these matters very clearly. Srinivasacarya said that the Gosvamis were abed in the ocean of transcendental feelings in the mood of the gopis.

 

-----------------------

 

"The Gaura-ganoddesa-dipika (120–24) states that Ramananda Raya was formerly Arjuna.

 

"...He is also considered to have been an incarnation of the gopi Lalita, although in the opinion of others he was an incarnation of Visakhadevi.

 

He is Arjuna but works like close friend - Lalita or Visakha. In this close friends Radha speak about Krisna.

[anadi]

Undoubtebly the persons you are trying to present Sastra are not on the level to understand it. More than that, as I have previously seen, addresing them give raise only to offenses.

I think such persons must be avoided alltogether. The best is to not lose time to even read their posts.

 

Here another "gem" by "shiva"

 

"All wrong, gopas are in madhurya rasa, she needs to read the plays of Rupa goswami , there

the rasa is shown

between the gopis(all expansions of Radha) and the gopas.

 

They are engaged in maduryha rasa together,no one

is excluded.

 

the reality is that the gopis are enjoying madhurya rasa with the gopas , Krishna is not sufficient for them ."

 

Here is more, but is not worth of being read.

http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=hinduism&Number=39681&page=&view=&sb=&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

 

[Guest guest]

You do one mistake if you do not foloow SP then no needs comment SP, and use name SP.

 

Wery sad but not all people be follow yours doctrine.

[Guest guest]

you are simply fanatic and sectarian.. and ignorant.. harekrishna

[Guest guest]

***you are simply fanatic and sectarian.. and ignorant.. harekrishna

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

But you blissful, absorbed in madhurya rasa devotees. Sraddha in tama guna.

 

Hare Krisna Prabhu, I am write for you understanding, but you has all spiritual life made. You made all spiritual life, reach perfection, and this kailasa preach some...ignorant.

 

Gayra vani it is not sambhoga Krisna lila, try understand.

 

Then SP speak - do not go any, do not read any... They now NOT ABLE understand. Wery sad.