The difference

[anadi]

OBJECTION 7: Srila Narayana MahArAja “re-initiates” disciples of VaiSNava gurus in good standing.

REFUTATION 7:

It happens

sometimes that a disciple is rejected by his guru, or a disciple loses

faith and officially breaks the connection with his spiritual master.

In such cases, to avoid unnecessary misunderstandings, Srila

NArAyaNa MahArAja’s secretary meticulously keeps files of letters

from the disciples, showing that the previously existing gurudisciple

relationship had been terminated before they had taken

shelter of him.

 

<font color="blue"> This article is a reply to the paper entitled “ISKCON’s position on Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja” by His Grace Badri-nArAyaNa Prabhu.

 

The following article will examine, one by one, the points made in that paper, in the light of scriptural evidence and the statementsof Srila Prabhupada himself. Statements of the ISKCON position paper will be refered to as OBJECTION, and ours as REFUTATION. </font color>

 

[Guest guest]

***sometimes that a disciple is rejected by his guru, or a disciple loses

faith and officially breaks the connection with his spiritual master.

 

Yes. If preach against yours organisation, then -"sometimes that a disciple is rejected by his guru, or a disciple loses faith and officially breaks the connection with his spiritual master".

 

"In such cases, to avoid unnecessary misunderstandings". In youe organisations peoples speak - "You go in hell if you go from sat guru". Secta.

[Guest guest]

In Bhakti-sandarbha (Anuccheda 238), Srila Jiva GosvAmi has

given the injunction that if one’s guru is envious of an exalted

VaiSVava one should immediately reject that guru and find a mahAbhAgavata

VaiSNava guru. Since many gurus in “good standing”

have committed grievous offences at the lotus feet of Srila Bhakti

Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja, Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja and Srila

NArAyaNa MahArAja, their ex-disciples acted in accordance with

scriptural injunctions by rejecting them. Therefore there was no “reinitiation”,

only “real initiation.”

 

If a guru is actually in good standing, then there is no question

of Srila MahArAja re-initiating his disciples. Rather, he simply gives

them instructions and encouragement in their spiritual practices,

and helps them to develop a deeper faith in their dikSa-guru.

 

[Guest guest]

are the russians eternal spiritual souls?

[Guest guest]

 

gaurasundar sayeth

Shiva, Jiva Gosvami is pretty clear in saying that hearing (or worship) of secret Gopi-lila is not for those who are in the moods of father, son and servant because it would be contrary to their moods. Why would it be contrary to their moods? Because, as I said, they will focus on bala-lila, or some other lila that is specific to their aspired bhava.

I couldn't really care what you think he is "alluding" to, I am much more interested in reading his statement in the proper context. As I said before, the English is abundantly clear and does not need interpretation.

 

 

 

you interpret what jiva goswami says,then insist

that that is what he means,then when i interpret what he says,you say do not interpret ?

 

you claim he means hearing about or contemplating,

but that those who are lusty are not qualified to hear,

and that those in other rasas are also not qualified to hear, of course this your take, he makes no such

qualifying idea,as you do, in fact your take

makes no sense, how does one know whether or not

he/she is in that rasa and therefore qualified

or not to hear or contemplate ?

 

the english is abundantly clear ?,apparently not to you,

otherwise you would not invent new meaning.

 

then you quote me and respond

 

In reply to:

--

 

as far as the male thing, if it was lust in general he was talking about, he would have said lust,he makes a point of specifying the male 'transformation', does this mean if females are lusty they are qualified to hear,but not males ?

 

 

--

 

I've addressed this before as well. Male transformations refers to experiencing lust as a result of hearing gopi-lila. This is an adverse reaction, and thus this hearer should not continue hearing gopi-lila.

It was your idea that males are not eligible for worshipping Radha-Krishna in the mood of a female, I have never heard that stated anywher ein all the Gaudiya literature that I've read, have you?

 

 

----------------------------

 

you avoided the point, if females feel lust hearing gopi

lila would they also be unqualified ?

 

Jiva specifically says ,male transformations, why not feamle transformations or lust in general ?

 

Does that mean if males feel lust as female then they are qualified ?

 

your interpretation makes no sense at all, if he was refering to lust as being the qualifying factor in whether someone could meditate on rasa lila, he would have said exactly that, but he doesn't,he maske a point of saying

male transformations, why ? becasaue he is making another point altogether ,being unqualifed you care clueless as to the actual import ,then concoct an irrational import

and claim that as being the true meaning.

 

--------------------

 

then you again quote me and reply

 

In reply to:

--

 

The problem is you are doing what has been advised you do not,you have no experience of that stage yet are trying to give comment and instruction on it, impossible

and waste of time.

 

 

--

 

As far as "doing," no one has advised not to do it. I have already given clear directions from Rupa Gosvami on this. Don't make me repeat them. As far as instruction, I have never presented myself as an instructor anywhere, do you think I have done this? Funny how you are also trying to give comment and instruction when you obviously do not understand all the evidence that has been presented? As far as a waste of time, I think not:

 

 

 

-----------------------

from A.C. Bhaktivedanta

 

"One who is not a great controller should never imitate the behavior of ruling personalities, even mentally. If out of foolishness an ordinary person does imitate such behavior, he will simply destroy himself, just as a person who is not Rudra would destroy himself if he tried to drink an ocean of poison."

 

The purport of this is that one who is not an isvara truly qualified by being endowed with divine potency should never even mentally contemplate, perform or imitate the Lord's rasa-lila. Only Lord Siva himself is able to drink an entire ocean of poison. If an unqualified person who is arudra (not Siva) falsely considers himself to be greatly qualified and tries to drink poison in the form of hearing and chanting about the rasa-lila, then he would certainly die — that is, he would become tightly bound within the death-like condition of samsara or gross material existence.

 

 

from the Bhagavata,Bhaktivinode Thakura

 

Caution to readers

 

 

In the form of the narrative of the Bhagavatam, the Transcendental Vraja Lila manifests its descent to the plane of our mundane vision in the symbolic shapes resembling those of the corresponding mundane events. If we are disposed, for any reason, to underestimate the transcendental symbolism of the narrative of the Bhagavatam we are unable to avoid unfavorable and hasty conclusions regarding the nature of the highest, the most perfect and the most charming form of the loving service of the Divinity to which all other forms of his service are as the avenues of approach.

 

"Goloka-Vrindavana is realizable in the symbolic Vrindavana that is open to our view in this world by all persons whose Love has been perfected by the mercy of the inhabitants of Transcendental Vraja, and not other-wise. The grossest misunderstanding of the subject of the Vraja Lila of Sri Krishna is inevitable if these considerations are not kept in view. All persons, under the sinister influence of the deluding power of Nescience, are subject to such misunderstanding in one form or another. They are fated to see nothing but a mundane tract of country in the terrestrial (Bhauma) Vrindavana and the practice of the grossest forms of debauchery in the Vraja Pastimes of Sri Krishna.

 

the gaurasundara qoutes a verse

 

“One who faithfully hears or describes the loving sports of Sri Krishna and the young maidens of Vraja will quickly drive away the heart-disease of lust, become sober, and attain supramundane devotion of the Lord.”

 

Shiva, I am aware that you have participated in several discussions along these lines before, and in each and every one of them adequate evidence was presented to show that the path of raganuga-sadhana is actually mental-sadhana as far as lila-smarana goes. I do not know why you do not accept the various scriptural quotes that back this up (never mind the actual directions of Mahaprabhu!) but please do not waste my time here.

 

------------------------

 

is that so,funny you ignore the warnings ,specifically to not consider your version of raganuga to be correct unless you are on that level,then give your teaching on the subject.

 

you said

""However, Lord Caitanya's greatest gift was His teaching that Krsna can be actually treated as one's lover. In this relationship the Lord is so much attached that He expresses His inability to reciprocate. Krsna was so obliged to the gopis, the cowherd girls of Vrndavana, that He felt unable to return their love. "I cannot repay your love," He told them. "I have no more assets to return." Thus devotional service is performed on this excellent platform, and knowledge of the devotee's relationship to Krnsa as lover and beloved was given by Caitanya Mahaprabhu"

 

and give your import

 

"The whole point of raganuga-sadhana is to serve Yugala-Kisora as female manjaris in rasa, at least if that is what you desire. The example was given of several Gosvamis and Acharyas, they were all "males" who worshipped Radha-Krishna as females. Are you saying, thus, that they were not males?"

 

your own interpretation based on the literal words you read, ignoring the warnings about symbolism and your inability to appreciate the inner meaning unless situated on that level.

 

then gaurasundara said

------------------------

 

I haven't heard of Arjuna being married to Krishna anywhere in any sastra whatsoever, have you?

 

-------------------------

 

Arjuna was married to Draupadi,the goddess of fortune,

 

Bhaktivedantas purport

 

"As already explained, Krsna and Radha are one in two. They are identical. Krsna expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the purusas. Similarly, Srimati Radharani expands Herself in multi-forms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja. Such expansions from Srimati Radharani are all Her plenary portions. All these womanly forms of Krsna are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Visnu forms. These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form. There is no difference between the original and reflected forms. The female reflections of Krsna's pleasure potency are as good as Krsna Himself."

 

Draupadi was known by many names. She was known as Krsna due to her beautiful dark complexion, Parsati because she was the grand-daughter of King Prsata, Draupadi because she was the daughter of King Drupada and Pancali because she was the daughter of the King of Pancala. Pancali grew up in the palace of Drupada. Stories about her many previous births are found in the Puranas. During all these births many gods blessed her saying that she would have five husbands when she was born as the daughter of Drupada.

 

She was very much aggrieved when her five sons were killed by Asvatthama. At the last stage, she accompanied her husband Yudhisthira and others and fell on the way. The cause of her falling was explained by Yudhisthira, but when Yudhisthira entered the heavenly planet he saw Draupadi gloriously present there as the goddess of fortune in the heavenly planet.

-------------------

 

before you claim authenticity as the rasaika acharya,

you need to actauly experience that level,

simply thinking becasue you have read something that you

are now the expert,can only lead you down the path of

self delusion.

[Guest guest]

sorry that was me

[Gaurasundara]

 

And now bring for you citation, read attentively.. Ok I am bring for you.. Sastra wery clear answer for you, read citation.. SRG write about this in YOUR citation.. Yes, yes I am bring for you this points.. I am bring citation for you right understanding.. Yes I am bring citation for you, Gaurasundara.. It is obvious, but I am bring for you evidence.. Do not worry.. Do not hurry, do not worry. Do not harry, if you RIGTH, do not worry.. I am answer in citation.. I am write arguments.. I am bring citation for you.

 

 

Ok, bring the citations.

[Gaurasundara]

 

***Again, sadhana-bhakti is split into two; vaidhi-bhakti-sadhana and raganuga-bhakti-sadhana. Which "sadhana-bhakti" do you want to follow, that is the question!

 

sadhana then sadhana-raganuga then raganuga

 

I am speak about pure raganuga.

 

 

Pure raganuga, no. Pure raganuga = ragatmika. Raganuga = sadhana. Rupa Gosvami say.

 

 

SRG write about this in YOUR citation.

 

 

Who is SRG?

 

 

***You clearly said that "worship Vaikuntha" then people go to "forever Goloka." However, the Caitanya-caritamrta (translated by Srila Prbahupada, by the way) clearly states that each form of worship will lead to a different goal. It is not progressive.

 

O me Lord, you do not able jump direct in Goloka, it is no possible. Read CC, you not read CC.

 

 

I have reading CC. This is CC say:

 

"By executing spontaneous devotional service in Vrndavana, one attains the original Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna." - CC Madhya 24.85

 

"By executing regulative devotional service, one becomes an associate of Narayana and attains the Vaikunthalokas, the spiritual planets in the spiritual sky." - CC Madhya 24.87

 

 

Vidhi-bhakti it is start, then all anothers bhakti. I am write about this so mutch.

 

 

Read up citations CC. Two CC citations I have given.

 

 

First understand who is rupanuga.

 

 

Rupa = Rupa Gosvami. Anuga = follower. Hence, Rupanuga = follower of Rupa Gosvami.

 

 

***I am sure that you agree with Rupa Gosvami, that is why you are continually establishing deviant ideas that have been shown to be deviant when his words have been presented quite clearly for the whole world to see.

 

It is babaji deviant.

 

 

That all depends on which particular babaji you are talking about. As far as I can see, the genuine parivaras follow strictly in the path of Rupa Gosvami. Thus, I am not inclined to label them as "deviants" when they ar enot.

 

 

***By the way, you did not answer me if Rupa Gosvami is a true guru or not?

 

He is true guru but needs real true guru, readings no possible understand SRG.

 

 

So we need a "REAL" true guru higher than Rupa Gosvami?

 

 

***Sadhana-bhakti is two types, vaidhi and raganuga. Vaidhi and raganuga both called "sadhana-bhakti."

 

In sadana man foolow regulations, then he is know own deha and go sadana-raganuga, then pure raganuga. I am write about pure raganuga. In his site they needs write "sadhana-raganuga", so mutch people write - "raganuga".

 

 

That's probably because they listen to what Rupa Gosvami says and don't follow their own ideas.

 

***So even with a "true guru" and a "true parampara," she still didn't have a clue what Mahaprabhu's mission was all about.

 

I am do not know about you speking. She do sadhana? - chant holy name?

 

 

[Gaurasundara]

 

Undoubtebly the persons you are trying to present Sastra are not on the level to understand it. More than that, as I have previously seen, addresing them give raise only to offenses. I think such persons must be avoided alltogether. The best is to not lose time to even read their posts.

 

 

I must say that I agree. I am fast coming to the same conclusion. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Gaurasundara]

 

you interpret what jiva goswami says,then insist that that is what he means,then when i interpret what he says,you say do not interpret ?

 

 

Shiva, if you kindly take the time to read the relevant section of Bhakti-sandarbha, you will find that Jiva Gosvami is clearly writing in the context of SB 10.33.39 . I have an unreliable translation of Bhakti-Sandarbha right here on my computer and I'm reading it right now. Since I know the translations are unreliable (and make no sense) therefore I have consulted with others who translate it properly. Jiva Gosvami's comment is quite in line with the tradition of Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta.

 

I'll explain it to you for the final time. After this, no more.

 

If I want to attain a bhava similar to that of Yashoda Maiya or Nanda Maharaja, I will need to find a guru who will teach me to attain this goal. This philosophy is of vatsalya-bhava, because the goal is for me to attain a vatsalya-bhava. To enrich my feelings, I will make Krishna's bala-lila the focus of my study. I will take great pleasure in hearing how Krishna was born, how He played as a toddler, harassed the gopis by stealing their butter, etc.

 

If I want to attain a bhava similar to that of Subala-sakha or Sridhama-sakha, I will need to find a guru who will teach me to attain this goal. This philosophy is of sakhya-bhava. To enrich my feelings, I will make Krishna's gopa-lila the focus of my study. I will take great pleasure in hearing how Krishna went out in the fields to herd cows, how He lifted Govardhana, how He shared His food with His friends, etc.

 

If I want to attain a bhava similar to that of the young girls of Vraja, I will need to find a guru who will teach me to attain this goal. This philosophy is of madhurya-bhava. To enrich my feelings, I will take great pleasure in hearing about Krishna's dealings with Radha, His dealings with the sakhis, and His dealings with the manjaris, etc.

 

Now, Srimad Bhagavatam [10.33.39] clearly states that one who faithfully hears or describe the the loving sports of Sri Krishna and the young maidens of Vraja will quickly drive away the heart-disease of lust, become sober, and attain supramundane devotion of the Lord. Right? You agree with this, yes or no?

 

Then what does Jiva Gosvami say? He says that these secret sports are not to be worshiped by those who experience male transformations in their senses. By this he is referring to people who experience sexual arousal when hearing of the secret sports. It is nothing to do with females OR males, as both may feel sexual arousal, and so therefore one should not hear of these sports. Jiva Gosvami also says that hearing of the gopi's sports with Krishna would be contrary to the moods of those who are in the other bhavas such as vatsalya, sakhya, and so on. This is obvious, because they will take greater delight in hearing of pastimes that focus on those specific bhavas. Does that make sense to you, yes or no?

 

The problem with your interpretation is this: "he says these secret sports are not to be worshipped until you are in the proper rasa." That is what you said first. I have no objection with this, because this perfectly fits in with what I am saying. Jiva Gosvami says that these secret sports are not to be worshipped until you are in the proper rasa, which is madhurya-bhava. They are not to be worshipped by those who are in the other rasas. We agree.

 

Then you say: "he is not saying if one is attracted by lust one is not qualified to hear or contemplate,again that is your take." Huh? This is precisely what Jiva Gosvami is saying. Why would anyone be attracted to lust? It is possible to ascribe lusty notions onto the transcendental pastimes of Radha and Krishna, that is well known, which is exactly why Jiva Gosvami is saying these lilas are not meant to be contemplated, hear about, described, worshipped, whatever, by those who are likely to experience sexual arousal as a result of such hearing, describing, contemplation, worship, whatever. We agree.

 

"as far as the male thing, if it was lust in general he was talking about, he would have said lust,he makes a point of specifying the male 'transformation', does this mean if females are lusty they are qualified to hear,but not males ?" This is a silly question. Obviously the standards apply to lusty females also.

 

"he is saying that if you have a male body,you cannot enter into that mode of worship." Here, we do not agree. This is a completely silly proposal. The example of past acharyas, Gosvamis and gurus have all been given. At least in the madhurya lines, each and every guru in that line has "entered into that mode of worship" even though they were in male bodies.

 

"if you have male transformations,or male reactions, as all males do naturally,then you cannot worship Radha Krsna as a female. that is obvious." No it is not obvious, otherwise how is it that so many gurus and acharyas have successfully worshipped Radha-Krishna in the mood of a female and preached that this is the highest goal? But to answer your question, here is what Rupa Gosvami says:

 

sevA sAdhaka rUpeNa siddha rUpeNa cAtra hi |

tad bhAva lipsunA kAryA vrajalokAnusArataH || (brs 1.2.295)

 

“One should serve both in his present sadhaka-body and in his siddha-form, following in the wake of the residents of Vraja, desiring to have feelings similar to theirs.”

 

And guess what? This is explained in CC as follows:

 

bAhya, antara, ihAra dui ta sAdhana |

bAhye sAdhaka-dehe kare zravaNa-kIrtana ||

mane nija-siddha-deha kariyA bhAvana |

rAtri-dine kare vraje kRSNera sevana || (cc 2.22.156-157)

 

“External and internal, these are indeed the two sadhanas. Externally, in the sadhaka-form, one engages in hearing and chanting, and in the mind, in one’s own siddha-form, day and night one thinks of and serves Sri Krishna in Vrindavana.”

 

Get it? So the path of sadhana is both external and internal. Since most Gaudiya Vaishnavas take Rupa-Sanatana as their models, this usually means that in the sadhaka-deha one should live in Vraja and perform sravana-kirtana, be renounced as possible, etc. In the siddha-deha (which is given by the guru at the time of diksa, by the way) one meditates on Krishna's Vraja pastimes.

 

Thus there is no evidence to suggest that males are disbarred from worshipping Krishna in the footsteps of the gopis. That is a most ridiculous idea.

 

Then you said: "it has nothing whatsover to do with sadhana of any kind, if it did he would say so,it has to do with "worship" or service,not sadhana. It has nothing to do with the path of sadhana bhakti." Now why should Jiva Gosvami waste time in stating the obvious? It is obvious because Rupa Gosvami has already written about it! And Rupa Gosvami clearly states that this relates to sadhana, because raganuga-bhakti itself is a sadhana, not a perfection as some unfortunate people tend to think. Srila Narottama das Thakura backs this up in Prema-bhakti-candrika:

 

sAdhana bhAvibo yAhA, siddha-dehe pAbo tAhA

rAga pathera ei se upAya (55)

 

"Whatever I think of during my sadhana I will attain in my siddha deha when I reach perfection. This is the means of rAga bhakti."

 

sAdhane ye dhana cAi, siddha dehe tAhA pAi,

pakkApakka mAtra se vicAra

apakke sAdhana rIti, pAkile se prema-bhakti,

bhakati lakSaNa tattva sAra (56)

 

"The treasure I desire as a sadhaka I will get when I attain my spiritual body; it's just a question of being ripe or unripe. The ripe stage is the stage of pure loving devotion and the unripe stage is the stage of sadhana. That is the essential truth about devotional principles."

 

So yes, according to Rupa, Sanatana, Jiva, Visvanatha, Narottama, and practically every Gaudiya guru who followed madhurya-bhava, this relates to sadhana.

 

Then you say: "you left out the other part." No I did not leave out anything. If you carefully read my words, you'll find that I have addressed that specific point.

 

 

for you to insist that "oh i have read these things,rupa says this and that,Jiva says that and this, what is the difficulty ?It is all this way and that way,just as the books describe,therefore since i understand these written things, i must be on the higest level,because only those on the highest level can understand them".

 

 

I have never said anything of the sort. Show me anyplace where I have written that I myself am on the highest level therefore I can understand high things? It would be a good idea if you could pay more attention to what I am saying rather than speculating about what you think I am saying.

 

 

this is the path of delusion, we are warned repeatedly that what is nectar to one can be like poison to another,

 

 

That was the whole point of Jiva Gosvami's comment. Those who are likely to experience sexual arousal from hearing of Krishna's confidential pastimes will be "poisoned." This does not necessarily mean that all people will experience this. Unless, of course, you are prepared to declare that everyone is a horny toad. Yet this is the path of Caitanya that was outlined by the Gosvamis, backed by Srimad-bhagavatam which says that hearing of the sports of Radha and Krishna will actually drive away the lust from the hearts of those who hear them faithfully. Is this not "nectar"? It is more than nectar!

 

 

the rasa shastra ,when the inner hidden meaning is revealed, is like nectar to the devotee, to the unqualified who reads and thinks he understands the literal words as all in all, misess entirely the inner confidential import,

 

 

We are not exactly talking about rasa-sastras here. You are missing the point of this entire discussion. We are not discussing rasa-sastras here, we are discussing the path of raganuga-bhakti-sadhana. The Gosvamis have thus clearly outlined how to go about this path in their books, such as Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, and Srimad Visvanatha has explained it further in his Raga-vartma-candrika. Have you read these books? I strongly suggest that you read them, they will clear up a lot of your misconceptions. Needless to say, they have perfectly explained that hearing of the confidential sports of Krishna with faith and aspiring to attain similar feelings to the associates of Krishna is itself the qualification to engage on the path of raganuga-bhakti-sadhana. No other qualification.

 

 

then because of this thinks himself as a highest stage performer of bhakti,then gives up Vaidhi prematurely,

is surely living in a fools paradise and these writings are like poison to him.

 

 

Who told you that vaidhi-bhakti was to be given up prematurely? Didn't I already explain to you that in the sadhaka-rupa one should follow Rupa-Sanatana? How do we do that? Well..

 

zruti-smRti-purANAdi- paJcarAtra-vidhiM vinA |

aikAntikI harer bhaktir utpAtAyaiva kalpate || (brs 1.2.101)

 

“Exclusive devotion to Lord Hari which does not follow the rules and regulations prescribed by the Srutis, Smritis, Puranas, or the Narada Pancaratra, is only causing disturbance.”

 

Thus..

 

zravaNotkIrtanAdIni vaidha bhaktyuditAni tu |

yAnyaGgAni ca tAnyatra vijJeyAni manISibhiH || (brs 1.2.296)

 

“Hearing, chanting and all the other limbs of vaidhi-bhakti are also to be engaged in. This is what the learned ones have ascertained.”

 

More precisely, the 64 angas of Bhakti which Rupa Gosvami describes are meant to be followed by the raganuga-sadhaka, especially the most important five:

 

zraddhA vizeSataH prItiH zrI-mUrter aGghri-sevane ||

zrImad-bhAgavatArthAnAm AsvAdo rasikaiH saha |

sajAtIyAzaye snigdhe sAdhau saGgaH svato vare ||

nAma-saGkIrtanaM zrIman-mathurA-maNDale sthitiH ||

aGgAnAM paJcakasyAsya pUrva-vilikhitasya ca |

nikhila-zraiSThya-bodhAya punar apy atra kIrtanam || (brs 1.2.90-92)

 

“(1) Serving the lotus feet of the Deity with faith and particular loving disposition;

(2) Relishing the taste of the meanings of the Bhagavata with those who are expert in tasting the moods of loving rapture;

(3) Associating with saints who have similar inclinations, who are soft-hearted and affectionately disposed towards oneself, and who are more advanced than is;

(4) Engaging in congregational chanting of the holy names, and

(5) Residing in the area of Mathura-mandala (the land of Vraja).

These aforementioned five limbs are understood as the essence of everything, and therefore they are glorified again.”

 

Thus there is no basis for genuine raganuga-sadhaka to give up the limbs of vaidhi-bhakti. They are observed with a difference in desire as per the specific attainment vis-a-vis Sriman Narayana in Vaikuntha or Sri Krishna in Vraja.

 

Does that calm your heart, Shiva?

 

 

The raganuga stage is not what is written down in the shastra,if it was then we would not be told repeatedly

that only the highest level devotee can understand.

 

 

As far as I know, this is only told by what you think the acharyas in the Sarasvata line say. It is upto you if you wish to follow them, but it is not what Rupa Gosvami, Visvanatha, Narottama, et al. preach.

 

The problem with you is that you do not know what rAgAnugA-bhakti is all about, but you are pretending to preach about the same. I am speaking about rAgAnugA, and you are speaking of rAgAtmikA. But instead of knowing that you are speaking of rAgAtmikA, you think you are talking of rAgAnugA and that is why you cannot understand how your posts make no sense at all.

 

First, do everyone a favour and study the difference between rAgAnugA and rAgAtmikA, and read some works of the Gosvamis, Visvanatha, Narottama, et al., before elying almost entirely on the works of Bhaktivinoda, Bhaktisiddhanta and Bhaktivedanta Swami.

[Gaurasundara]

 

you interpret what jiva goswami says,then insist

that that is what he means,then when i interpret what he says,you say do not interpret ?

 

 

These are some of the wacky ideas you have come up with so far:

 

1 - Males cannot worship in the mode of a female.

2 - Arjuna's bhava was the same as the Queens of Dvaraka.

3 - Wal-mart employees are guaranteed to marry their employers (if they behave).

 

Did I miss anything else?

 

 

from A.C. Bhaktivedanta

 

"One who is not a great controller should never imitate the behavior of ruling personalities, even mentally. If out of foolishness an ordinary person does imitate such behavior, he will simply destroy himself, just as a person who is not Rudra would destroy himself if he tried to drink an ocean of poison."

 

 

Nice quote, though no reference. If you bothered to read it properly before hurriedly posting it in public, you would have understood that Srila Prabhupada here warns against imitation. There is a significant difference between imitation and following in the footsteps of the gopis.

 

"Lord Caitanya exhibited the mode of Srimati Radharani when She was contacted from Dvaraka by Sri Kr&#803;s&#803;n&#803;a. Such transcendental love is not possible for any common man; therefore one should not imitate the highest perfectional stage exhibited by Caitanya Mahaprabhu. If, however, one desires to be in that association, he may follow in the footsteps of the gopis." - Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chap. 30.

 

By the way, ever heard of mahajana-yena-gatah-sa-panthah?

 

 

is that so,funny you ignore the warnings ,specifically to not consider your version of raganuga to be correct unless you are on that level,then give your teaching on the subject.

 

 

The point here, Cartman, is that raganuga is the means to attain the goal of "that level," which is known as ragatmika.

 

 

and give your import

 

"The whole point of raganuga-sadhana is to serve Yugala-Kisora as female manjaris in rasa, at least if that is what you desire. The example was given of several Gosvamis and Acharyas, they were all "males" who worshipped Radha-Krishna as females. Are you saying, thus, that they were not males?"

 

your own interpretation based on the literal words you read, ignoring the warnings about symbolism and your inability to appreciate the inner meaning unless situated on that level.

 

 

What symbolism, Cartman? I was commenting on Srila Prabhupada's words. Speaking of which:

 

"Ramananda Raya then began to relate the confidential and transcendental activities of Radha and Kr&#803;s&#803;n&#803;a. These activities cannot be understood in the emotional relationship with the Supreme Lord as master and servant, friend and friend or parent and son. This confidential subject matter can be understood only in the association of the damsels of Vraja, for the confidential activities have arisen from the feelings and emotions of those damsels. Without the association of the damsels of Vraja, one cannot nourish or cherish such transcendental understanding. In other words, these confidential pastimes of Radha and Kr&#803;s&#803;n&#803;a have expanded through the mercy of the damsels. Without their mercy, they cannot be understood. One has to follow in the footsteps of the damsels of Vraja in order to understand." - Teachings of Lord Caitanya Chap. 31.

 

 

I haven't heard of Arjuna being married to Krishna anywhere in any sastra whatsoever, have you?

 

-------------------------

 

Arjuna was married to Draupadi,the goddess of fortune,

 

 

So? What does that prove? This doesn't put him in madhurya-rasa along with the Queens of Dvaraka like you aid. He remains in the sakhhya-rasa position. If you claim that Arjuna (for some weird reason) is in the same bhava as the mahisis, then you are guilty of rasabhasa.

 

 

before you claim authenticity as the rasaika acharya,

you need to actauly experience that level,

simply thinking becasue you have read something that you

are now the expert,can only lead you down the path of

self delusion.

 

 

*Sigh*

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Show me one place where I have claimed to be a bigshot "rasika acharya" who tries to teach people about rasa-lila. Just one place. Even in this final statement you are incorrect as always.

[anadi]

OBJECTION 8: Srila PrabhupAda worked to create a worldwide

society that provided engagement and shelter for his followers. Srila

NArAyaNa MahArAja has not done so.

REFUTATION 8: Most devotees are not informed about the

preaching activities of Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja. Although he has

only preached outside of India for seven years, he has established

many temples and preaching centers in places such as Birmingham,

England; Berlin, Germany; Murwillumbah, Australia; San Paulo,

Brazil; PrabhupAda GauDyIa Math in Costa Rica; BhaktivedAnta

Gauòéya Math in Moscow, Russia; St Petersburg, Russia; Croatia; Sri

Ananta GauDIya MaTha in Bali, Indonesia; Sri Sri RAdhA Govinda

GauDiya Math in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia; Hare KRSNa Society of the

Philippines; Sri RAdhA-Govinda GauDiya Matha in Venice Beach,

California; and other places. In addition to this, there are gRhastha

communities in Wales, U.K.; Badger, California; Perth and

Murwillumbah, Australia; and so on. Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja is also the

patron of a gurukula in California.

 

<font color="blue"> This article is a reply to the paper entitled “ISKCON’s position on Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja” by His Grace Badri-nArAyaNa Prabhu.

 

The following article will examine, one by one, the points made in that paper, in the light of scriptural evidence and the statementsof Srila Prabhupada himself. Statements of the ISKCON position paper will be refered to as OBJECTION, and ours as REFUTATION. </font color>

[Guest guest]

OBJECTION 8: Srila PrabhupAda worked to create a worldwide

society that provided engagement and shelter for his followers. Srila

NArAyaNa MahArAja has not done so.

 

.

.

.

 

this is simply the same stupid objection, if narayana maharaja or others have not done the same work of srila prabhupada .. no iskcon member existent in the world in past, present and future has done and will do the same work of srila prabhupada

 

so there's no problem to say that vaishnavism can be a world with a FIRST.. srila prabhupada.. and a huge number of 2nds.. 3rds... 4rths etc

 

so this thing means nothing... prabhupada is better than narayana maharaja, jayapataka swami, tamal krsna swami, gour govinda swami, me, you, they, us etc etc etc

 

but any one has the right and the duty to continue his work and to get his legacy if he's a vaishnava

[Guest guest]

gaura sundarasa sayeth

 

 

The problem with your interpretation is this: "he says these secret sports are not to be worshipped until you are in the proper rasa." That is what you said first. I have no objection with this, because this perfectly fits in with what I am saying. Jiva Gosvami says that these secret sports are not to be worshipped until you are in the proper rasa, which is madhurya-bhava. They are not to be worshipped by those who are in the other rasas. We agree.

 

Then you say: "he is not saying if one is attracted by lust one is not qualified to hear or contemplate,again that is your take." Huh? This is precisely what Jiva Gosvami is saying. Why would anyone be attracted to lust? It is possible to ascribe lusty notions onto the transcendental pastimes of Radha and Krishna, that is well known, which is exactly why Jiva Gosvami is saying these lilas are not meant to be contemplated, hear about, described, worshipped, whatever, by those who are likely to experience sexual arousal as a result of such hearing, describing, contemplation, worship, whatever. We agree.

 

"as far as the male thing, if it was lust in general he was talking about, he would have said lust,he makes a point of specifying the male 'transformation', does this mean if females are lusty they are qualified to hear,but not males ?" This is a silly question. Obviously the standards apply to lusty females also.

 

 

 

Why would he say male transformations ?

Isn't that a strange thing to say if he meant lust ?

Especially since the gopis are lusty,Radha is lusty,and Krsna is lusty also, in the Gita govinda we read that Radha

is overwhelmed with lust.

 

So if he meant that those who experience lust when worshipping in that rasa are not qualified,that disqualifies

Radha ,Krsna and the Gopis.

 

He specifically says male transformations,that is an unusual

thing to say and he says that for a purpose, The real meaning is not that lust is wrong for madhurya rasa

in the feelings for girls to boys,As Rupa Goswami

said, He prayed that he could feel the same feelings

fro Krsna as a young boy has for a young girl,the real meaning is that if you have a desire to enter that rasa,

girl to boy, then if you have male transformations,

or male feelings of lust ,boy to girl instead of girl to boy,then you cannot enter that rasa.

 

For a girl to feel lust is allright and natural,that is why he speciifes male transformations as being

a hinderance, otherwise he simply would have said lust,which would be wrong,Lust is a big part of madhurya

rasa.

-------------------------

 

then you said

 

 

That was the whole point of Jiva Gosvami's comment. Those who are likely to experience sexual arousal from hearing of Krishna's confidential pastimes will be "poisoned." This does not necessarily mean that all people will experience this. Unless, of course, you are prepared to declare that everyone is a horny toad. Yet this is the path of Caitanya that was outlined by the Gosvamis, backed by Srimad-bhagavatam which says that hearing of the sports of Radha and Krishna will actually drive away the lust from the hearts of those who hear them faithfully. Is this not "nectar"? It is more than nectar!

 

 

 

 

again you make yourself the arbiter of truth in rasa without

actual realization of these topics,the result ?

you misunderstand.

 

There is a difference between material lust and spiritual

lust, the material is a reflection of the pure thing,

lust is a big part of madhurya rasa lila,Krsna

when he stops the gopis to take a toll in order to allow them to cross a bridge offers them some intoxicants

meant to increase their lusty feelings so he and the gopas can take advantage of them, this is Vraja lila,

Lust in madhurya rasa,the original pure form of lust,

uncontaminated by material imperfections.

 

Lust is not bad, selfishness in the form of lust is.

----------------------

 

 

then you said

 

 

We are not exactly talking about rasa-sastras here. You are missing the point of this entire discussion. We are not discussing rasa-sastras here, we are discussing the path of raganuga-bhakti-sadhana. The Gosvamis have thus clearly outlined how to go about this path in their books, such as Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, and Srimad Visvanatha has explained it further in his Raga-vartma-candrika. Have you read these books? I strongly suggest that you read them, they will clear up a lot of your misconceptions. Needless to say, they have perfectly explained that hearing of the confidential sports of Krishna with faith and aspiring to attain similar feelings to the associates of Krishna is itself the qualification to engage on the path of raganuga-bhakti-sadhana. No other qualification.

 

 

 

 

you may believe what you like,you can interpret the shastra to your hearts desire,you can pick and choose what rasa you would like to be in and try and follow that sadhana to attain that,good luck.

 

the higher path is to first become free from all imperfections,anarthas,free from all mundane and speculative

reasoning and interpretation of siddhanta,at that stage

when all of the unwanted things have been removed,

you find that you do not care how or what rasa you are in.

 

At that stage ,Sarangati,one feels oneself unqualified

for any rasa, Trnad api sunicena, lower then dirt,

The great acharyas complain and lament that they have no taste for service, no feelings of love,and that they are worthlesss beggers.

 

at that stage one throws oneself at the feet of the divine

and leaves the result and placement to the desire Radha Krsna have for you,your own ideas and desires for this or that position is only there in the lower stages,hankering

for position,enjoyment,exploitation in the name of Bhakti,

Bhakti tinged with material lust,Kama.

 

When the heart and desire is free from material considerations the realm of raganuga open to reveal another

reality,a different way or outlook, the lower stages are for those who desire position ,for them a proscribed path is laid out, when they are purified by that path, then they no longer desire a position,they leave that up to the desire

of the supreme.

 

Then a new vision ,a new inner understanding is revealed,until then if you desire to be this or that position in rasa, then the path of raganuga sadhana

is meant for you.

[Guest guest]

you leave out the purport to the quote from Prabhupada,

 

which is

 

The purport of this is that one who is not an isvara truly qualified by being endowed with divine potency should never even mentally contemplate, perform or imitate the Lord's rasa-lila. Only Lord Siva himself is able to drink an entire ocean of poison. If an unqualified person who is arudra (not Siva) falsely considers himself to be greatly qualified and tries to drink poison in the form of hearing and chanting about the rasa-lila, then he would certainly die , that is, he would become tightly bound within the death-like condition of samsara or gross material existence.

 

 

----------------------

 

then you quote me

"Arjuna was married to Draupadi,the goddess of fortune,"

 

 

--then you give us your reply

 

So? What does that prove? This doesn't put him in madhurya-rasa along with the Queens of Dvaraka like you aid. He remains in the sakhhya-rasa position. If you claim that Arjuna (for some weird reason) is in the same bhava as the mahisis, then you are guilty of rasabhasa.

 

------------------------

 

Arjuna is married to Draupadi,who is a goddess of fortune,

as Prabhupada said and i quoted,All Goddess's of fortune

are Krsna's womanly forms,and are non different then Him.

 

[Guest guest]

sorry,had to do sumpin.

 

anyways,Arjuna is in Madhurya rasa with Krsna,Draupadi

is Krsna,as are the gopis,and the queens of Dwarka,

also Durga devi is Krsna.

 

Jiva Goswami said if anyone thinks that Durga

is different then Krsna he will not be liberated.

 

Draupadi was called Krsna ,one of her names,

this has an inner meaning for those aware

of tatva jnana, She and all the queeens of Dwarka

are non different then Krsna,they are all the same

person, different forms,there is no difference

between them,other then the personas they display,

the activities they perform etc.

 

So Arjuna in fact is in madhurya rasa with Krsna,

so is Yudhisthira,so is Mahadeva Shiva.

 

This is the truth of madhurya rasa, Krsna is not only

involved with himself in rasa ,the gopis,queens,goddess's

are all him, their rasa is under yoga maya,it is an illusory

rasa,Krsna can only have real rasa with a different person,

when pastimes are displayed they are done to present

a vision of transcendental life,to attract conditioned

souls to Bhakti, but there is an inner reality to them as well,Radha ,Krsna,The gopis,queens,goddess's, are all the same supreme being,God,the rasa displayed between them is an illusion for the benefit of the conditioned souls who hear and chant about them.

 

Real rasa can only be experienced between one person

and another person, Krsna with Radha,or with gopis,queens

or other incarnations and expansions is not true rasa lila.

 

True rasa lila is when you have rasa with Krsna,that is real rasa,Radha is the internal nature,the internal energy,

the pleasure potency of Krsna,it is through Her and Her expansions that Krsna is enjoying rasa,therefore Krsna

tells Arjuna that He is the dearest to Him,and Also he says that no one is dearer then shiva to Him, this is real rasa tatva,

while following in the footsteps of the gopis is held as the highest example of devotion, that is an example of the mood

of the highest devotee,the giving up of husbands,society,

all things to serve the desire of God, they are not setting

the example to be imitated,just to show the mood

of the pure bhakti.

 

[Gaurasundara]

Dear Shiva,

 

there is no point in discussing these topics with you, as you clearly have your own ideas about raganuga-bhakti and the eligibility for the same, which ignores the direct instructions of the Gosvamis and Acharyas by the way. I also know that you have been shown to be wrong on these points on many occasions previously, and yet you still present all these same points without having understood anything that anybody has ever said to you. Good luck!

[Gaurasundara]

 

you leave out the purport to the quote from Prabhupada,

 

which is

 

The purport of this is that one who is not an isvara truly qualified by being endowed with divine potency should never even mentally contemplate, perform or imitate the Lord's rasa-lila.

 

 

Very good. Now check this out:

 

"In Caitanya-caritamrta it is clearly said that one should accept the emotional activities and not imitate the dress of the associates of Krsna. One should also always meditate upon the affairs between Radha and Krsna in the transcendental world. One should think of Radha and Krsna twenty-four hours a day and eternally engage in Their service. One need not externally change his dress. By following the mood of the associates and friends of Radharani, one can ultimately achieve the perfectional stage and be transferred to Goloka Vrndavana, the transcendental abode of Krsna." - TLC Chap. 31.

 

Arjuna is married to Draupadi,who is a goddess of fortune, as Prabhupada said and i quoted,All Goddess's of fortune are Krsna's womanly forms,and are non different then Him.

 

 

That may be so, but that does not mean that Arjuna is in madhurya-rasa. He himself remains in sakhya-rasa. Even a child can tell you which rasa Arjuna is in.

[Guest guest]

Shiva wrote:

At that stage ,Sarangati,one feels oneself unqualified

for any rasa, Trnad api sunicena, lower then dirt,

The great acharyas complain and lament that they have no taste for service, no feelings of love,and that they are worthlesss beggers.

<hr>

This is beautiful.

This is the teaching of Prabhupada Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami.

-Murali

 

[anadi]

OBJECTION 8: Srila PrabhupAda worked to create a worldwide

society that provided engagement and shelter for his followers. Srila

NArAyaNa MahArAja has not done so.

REFUTATION 8

Besides this, Srila Maharaja never claimed to have established

a worldwide institution. He is only trying to execute Srila BV Svami

Prabhupada’s order to him. Just before his departure, Srila BV Svami Prabhupada

requested him to help and guide his disciples. Thousands of

devotees – who had previously lost some of their faith in Kåñëa

consciousness, devotees who felt neglected and were forced to

leave the temples, devotees who became weak in their following of

the religious principles, and devotees who wanted to deepen their

relation with Srila BV Svami Prabhupada – are all becoming re-inspired by his

love and his teachings.

 

<font color="blue"> This article is a reply to the paper entitled “ISKCON’s position on Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja” by His Grace Badri-nArAyaNa Prabhu.

 

The following article will examine, one by one, the points made in that paper, in the light of scriptural evidence and the statementsof Srila Prabhupada himself. Statements of the ISKCON position paper will be refered to as OBJECTION, and ours as REFUTATION. </font color>

[Guest guest]

gaurasundara bespoketh

That may be so, but that does not mean that Arjuna is in madhurya-rasa. He himself remains in sakhya-rasa. Even a child can tell you which rasa Arjuna is in

 

 

 

what is madhurya rasa ?

conjugal love.

He had a conjugal rasa with Draupadi.

He had a sakhya rasa with Krsna.

Draupadi and Krsna are one and the same.

What is the difficulty ?

 

then you blessed us like so

In Caitanya-caritamrta it is clearly said that one should accept the emotional activities and not imitate the dress of the associates of Krsna. One should also always meditate upon the affairs between Radha and Krsna in the transcendental world. One should think of Radha and Krsna twenty-four hours a day and eternally engage in Their service. One need not externally change his dress. By following the mood of the associates and friends of Radharani, one can ultimately achieve the perfectional stage and be transferred to Goloka Vrndavana, the transcendental abode of Krsna." - TLC Chap. 31.

 

 

that was a reply to this from Bhaktivedanta

 

The purport of this is that one who is not an isvara truly qualified by being endowed with divine potency should never even mentally contemplate, perform or imitate the Lord's rasa-lila.

 

 

 

mentally contemplate,perform,or imitate ,hmmmm,

seems to me he is making a point about siddha pranali

and sahajiyaism, he doen't say that you shouldn't think about Radha Krsna,he is very specific,

rasa lila shouldn't be the focus of your study

and meditation if you are not qualified.

 

that is different then thinking about Radha or Krsna,

the path of siddha pranali and raganuga sadhana

centered around rasa lila is what he is refering to,

why accept one thing he says,then say the other is wrong,

he is making two different points.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

"what is madhurya rasa ?

conjugal love.

He had a conjugal rasa with Draupadi.

He had a sakhya rasa with Krsna.

Draupadi and Krsna are one and the same.

What is the difficulty ?"

 

it sounds like : sita has conjugal rasa with rama.. rama comes from balarama.. balarama comes from krsna.. sita has madhurya rasa with krsna

 

(not for polemic, i simply do not understand)

[Gaurasundara]

 

--

 

That may be so, but that does not mean that Arjuna is in madhurya-rasa. He himself remains in sakhya-rasa. Even a child can tell you which rasa Arjuna is in.

 

 

--

 

 

 

what is madhurya rasa ?

conjugal love.

He had a conjugal rasa with Draupadi.

He had a sakhya rasa with Krsna.

Draupadi and Krsna are one and the same.

What is the difficulty ?

 

 

Wow. Very good realisation. Did you work that one out all by yourself or did Ronald McDonald himself reveal this confidential truth to you? By the way:

 

"Devotees in the third stage, the stage of friendship, are Sridama in Vrndavana and Bhima and Arjuna in Dvaraka and on the Battlefield of Kuruksetra. There are many others also. As far as those relating to Krsna in paternal love, they include devotees like Yasoda; and Maharaja Nanda — that is, Krsna's mother, father, uncle and similar relatives. In conjugal love there are the damsels of Vraja, Vrndavana, and the queens and goddesses of fortune in Dvaraka. No one can count the vast number of devotees in this rasa." - TLC Chapter 1.

 

Sorry. Srila Prabhupada clearly denotes Arjuna as being in sakhya-rasa. This idea of Arjuna being in madhurya-rasa via his marriage to Draupadi who is non-different from Krishna, is an unusual idea, but is against Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

Certainly, no one can count the vast number of devotees in madhurya-rasa. However, it is plainly obvious which rasa Arjuna belongs to. Arjuna in sakhya-rasa with Krishna, and madhurya-rasa with Krishna via Draupadi, this is rasabhasa. Please don't pretend to be something of an authority on rasa when you clearly are not.

 

 

mentally contemplate,perform,or imitate ,hmmmm,

seems to me he is making a point about siddha pranali

and sahajiyaism, he doen't say that you shouldn't think about Radha Krsna,he is very specific,

rasa lila shouldn't be the focus of your study

and meditation if you are not qualified.

 

that is different then thinking about Radha or Krsna,

the path of siddha pranali and raganuga sadhana

centered around rasa lila is what he is refering to,

why accept one thing he says,then say the other is wrong,

he is making two different points.

 

 

You're certainly free to continue absorbing yourself in extensive speculation and rationalising, by saying that he makes points about siddha-pranali when there is no such reference in the quotes, but one fact is clear. The comment you provided directly contradicted the comment I provided. The only qualification according to the Gosvamis (and thus, Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta) is simply the desire to faithfully hear them. Period. You'll never be able to scoot around this.

[Gaurasundara]

Personally I can understand Srila Prabhupada's points especially when considering time, place and circumstance.

 

What was the time and place like in 1960s America? There was sense-enjoyment everywhere, "Free Love" was a popular slogan, and people were quite accustomed to living together in a fre-for-all relationships, etc. In such a hedonistic enovironment, it's pretty obvious that a philosophy all about God as a "womaniser" would not go down too well with the derelicts. Actually, it probably would have gone down well with them, since I am sure that such hippies would appreciate worshipping a God by perceiving their behaviour in His. That, I feel, is one of the reasons why Srila Prabhupada introduced the philosophy gradually. This is why he was always emphatic that the lilas of Krishna are in no way similar to the "lilas" of human beings. That is the sort of warning you will find everywhere.

 

Attracting them with the Holy Name, delicious prasadam, harinama-kirtanas outdoors, building temples, and so on. Slowly slowly making them qualified. But he always made it clear that according to this viewpoint, the platform of raganuga-sadhana is certainly to be applied as and when it will be necessary. To say otherwise, like Shiva and others do, would be extremely foolish. For this is the supreme never-before-given gift of Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

[Guest guest]

ajata ruci raganuga is what you can follow. how will you do so?