The difference

[anadi]

OBJECTION 9: Srila Prabhupada and Srila NarayaNa MahArAja have

different teachings about the original position of the jéva (the

individual soul).

REFUTATION 9: Srila Prabhupada has given many different

comments to different people in different circumstances in regard to the origin of the jiva.

 

Let us see what he writes :

 

“According to ViSNu Purana, Bhagavad-gItA and all other Vedic

literatures, the living entities are generated from the taSasthA energy

of the Lord, and thus they are always the energy of the Lord and are

not the energetic.” (Srimad-BhAgavatam

3.7.9)

 

“The CONCLUSION is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or

Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.” (Srimad-BhAgavatam

3.16.26)

 

<font color="blue"> This article is a reply to the paper entitled “ISKCON’s position on Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja” by His Grace Badri-nArAyaNa Prabhu.

 

The following article will examine, one by one, the points made in that paper, in the light of scriptural evidence and the statementsof Srila Prabhupada himself. Statements of the ISKCON position paper will be refered to as OBJECTION, and ours as REFUTATION. </font color>

[Guest guest]

gaurasundara spoketh

 

 

Sorry. Srila Prabhupada clearly denotes Arjuna as being in sakhya-rasa. This idea of Arjuna being in madhurya-rasa via his marriage to Draupadi who is non-different from Krishna, is an unusual idea, but is against Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

 

 

Certainly, no one can count the vast number of devotees in madhurya-rasa. However, it is plainly obvious which rasa Arjuna belongs to. Arjuna in sakhya-rasa with Krishna, and madhurya-rasa with Krishna via Draupadi, this is rasabhasa. Please don't pretend to be something of an authority on rasa when you clearly are not.

 

 

 

how is that rasabhasa, with Krsna he is a friend,

he is unaware that Draupadi is Krsna,yet he is still

in madhurya rasa with Her, there is no conflict,

rasabhasa would be if his relationship with Krsna

was different, his rasa with Draupadi is not conflicting

with His rasa with Krsna,if he attempted to be just

a friend to Draupadi then that would be rasabhasa,

your conclusion is faulty.

 

This is the problem with people who are to big for

their britches,they consider themselves experts at things

that are hidden from them,Repeatedly i have shown you quotes

that Vraja lila is symbolic and easily misunderstood,

one can make as Bhaktivinode said "unfavorable conclusions

about the nature of the highest service".

 

We Get quotes from MahaDeva Shiva, He tells us that

the true meaning of the Bhagavatam is hidden,

Vyasa may not know the truth of the Bhagavatam ,

and He wrote it, the conclusions one reaches concerning

the highest levels of intimacy with the supreme

is easily misunderstood if one takes the literal

descriptions as being all in all.

 

You in your supreme confidence and negligable

experience make assumptions that leave you

to believe in your own ability and perfected

vision, making statements like the one about

Draupadi and Arjuna shows your level of understanding,

claiming that madhurya rasa between Arjuna and Draupadi

is against gaudiya siddhanta only proves the point of your own inexperience and unfavorable conclusions derived

from a lack of understanding.

 

As Jiva Goswami points out

 

"Sometimes Goddess Durga is also described as the supreme controller. This is also correct because there is no difference between the potencies and Lord Krishna, the master of all potencies. This is confirmed by the following words of the Gautamiya Tantra:

 

"Krishna is Durga. Durga is Krishna. One who sees that they are different will not become liberated from the cycle of repeated birth and death."

 

Durga is the personal potency of Lord Krishna, and therefore she is Lord Krishna Himself. For this reason Durga should not be considered manifested from a portion of the Lord's illusory potency Maya. This fact is confirmed by the following stat ement of the Nirukti:

 

"Simply by understanding her one immediately attains the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is not otherwise.

 

"She is identical with Gokula's queen Sri Radha, who possesses a great treasure of love for Krishna. By her grace the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of all living entities, is easily understood. "

 

Draupadi is no different,She is the same as Durga,Krsna,

Radha etc.

 

to say that Arjuna is only a friend of Krsna shows your lack

of understanding, this is understandable ,your experience

is limited and the true nature of rasa lila is not

in your purview,Arjuna is also in madhurya rasa with Krsna,Draupadi and Krsna are one and the same,to say that

goes against gaudiya siddhanta only shows your lack

of knowledge.

 

this is from Bhaktivinode

 

In the form of the narrative of the Bhagavatam, the Transcendental Vraja Lila manifests its descent to the plane of our mundane vision in the symbolic shapes resembling those of the corresponding mundane events. If we are disposed, for any reason, to underestimate the transcendental symbolism of the narrative of the Bhagavatam we are unable to avoid unfavorable and hasty conclusions regarding the nature of the highest, the most perfect and the most charming form of the loving service of the Divinity to which all other forms of his service are as the avenues of approach.

 

Goloka-Vrindavana is realizable in the symbolic Vrindavana that is open to our view in this world by all persons whose Love has been perfected by the mercy of the inhabitants of Transcendental Vraja, and not other-wise. The grossest misunderstanding of the subject of the Vraja Lila of Sri Krishna is inevitable if these considerations are not kept in view. All persons, under the sinister influence of the deluding power of Nescience, are subject to such misunderstanding in one form or another. They are fated to see nothing but a mundane tract of country in the terrestrial (Bhauma) Vrindavana and the practice of the grossest forms of debauchery in the Vraja Pastimes of Sri Krishna. "

 

 

[theist]

speculating on madhurya-rasa,nice topic but the honey jar lid stays tightly closed.

[Guest guest]

yeah ,like you would know,that type of comment

is based on what ? your experience ?

 

or as you nicely said "speculating" ?

 

Are you really in a position to judge what is and

what is truth in rasa ?

 

Best to leave your speculations about speculating

in the place it came from,the speculative pride.

[Gaurasundara]

 

ajata ruci raganuga is what you can follow. how will you do so?

 

 

ajAta-tAdRza-rucinA tu sad-vizeSAdara-mAtrAdRtA rAgAnugApi vaidhI-saMvalitaivAnuSTheyA | tathA loka-saMgrahArthaM pratiSThitena jAta-tAdRza-rucinA ca | atra mizratve ca yathA-yogyaM rAgAnugayaikI kRtyaiva vaidhI kartavyA || (Bhakti-sandarbha 312)

 

"Those in whom such taste (ruci) has not awakened, but who have a special interest for it, should engage in a mixture of raganuga and vaidhi. For the sake of establishing an example for the people of the world, the one in whom such ruci has awakened will do the same. Therefore, as appropriate, raganuga should be performed together with vaidhi."

 

Therefore I have no choice. Since I am uninitiated, all I can do is chant, perform service and read scriptures. Only when I get initiated by a guru can I begin my process of bhajan. It hardly matters for me anyway, ajata and jata, for those in whom ruci have awakened follow the external formalities (64 angas of bhakti) to set an example to people.

[Gaurasundara]

Very well, Shiva. You have the supreme understanding of Srila Prabhupada's books and siddhanta.

 

Haribol prabhu, but now I must take a heavy book bag and go sell them on the street. Hare Krishna!

[theist]

 

yeah ,like you would know,that type of comment

is based on what ? your experience ?

 

 

No, my acknowledged lack of it.

 

 

or as you nicely said "speculating" ?

 

 

Not speculating. I know I am not a rasikacarya.

 

 

Are you really in a position to judge what is and

what is truth in rasa ?

 

 

I am not in such a position and am not interested in pretending I am.

 

 

Best to leave your speculations about speculating

in the place it came from,the speculative pride.

 

 

It's not irrational speculation to look in a courtroom and see who the real authority is. Nor is it nueroscience.

[Guest guest]

The point is that Gaudiya Vaisnavism is about raganuga bhakti becasue it is about Radha Krsna in Vraja, but those who have no ruci or rati can hardly follow it other than aspiring for qualification while engaging in vaidhi bhakti. They are generously called ajata ruci raganuga sadhakas, which speaks only of their oreintation to Vraja bhakti/intimate love as opposed to devotion in Vaikuntha. Otherwise raganuga proper requires ruci, if not rati, which is the basis of one's svarupa. So we should not make much out of little.

 

Now if you are not initiated, you can do sadhu sanga, nama kirtana, and Vaisnava seva. Books are to be studied under the guidance of a guru/sadhu.

[Guest guest]

theist ,you said this

speculating on madhurya-rasa,nice topic but the honey jar lid stays tightly closed.

 

 

 

then when i answered and questioned your ability to

distinguish what is and what isn't speculation

or what one has experienced or not,you then claimed

that you were not qualified to do so.

 

Exactly my point,but before you made this bit of self

realiztion you first made a comment meant to show that

you were in fact able to distinguish between what is and what is not tatva, know i don't really care one way or another what you said,i just was wondering how you came

to such a conclusion,what exactly led you to believe

that "licking the outside of the jar" is what

was being put forth, in order to determine that you must be inside,otherwise how can you factually determine

the truth of who or which conception was factual and based

on "inside the nectar" or "outside,on the jar looking in" ?

 

to make a bonafide determination you must be on the inside,

or at least be able to provide info on what you believe

makes whatever was posted to be speculative or "outside'

the jar ?

 

otherwise as i said your pride took over and you made

a statement that you were unable to back up,

claiming unqualification.

 

I think it's best when discussing these topics to leave

emotional outbursts behind and examine the data

on it's merits ,alone. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[Guest guest]

phew /images/graemlins/cool.gif,'bout time.

 

i know ,it's hard to believe that we can mistakes when

tatva seems so clear to us,but when we rely solely

on our own ability to understand what is written,

then we are incomplete,the real nature of these topics

is called confidential, and increasingly more so,

the reason for this qualifying statement when Mahaprabhu's associates discussed these things is that

what you read and think you understand is not

the whole story.

 

Confidential means just that,the highest truth is classified,revealed knowledge,not available by

any amount of empirical study. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[theist]

you are right shiva. Who am I to question anyone's qualification for dispensing knowledge on the finer points of Krsna rasa.

 

Carry on.

 

Hare Krsna

[Gaurasundara]

 

The point is that Gaudiya Vaisnavism is about raganuga bhakti becasue it is about Radha Krsna in Vraja, but those who have no ruci or rati can hardly follow it other than aspiring for qualification while engaging in vaidhi bhakti.

 

 

How exactly would you define "aspiring for qualification" ? The Gosvamis says that simply hearing of the dealings of the Lord with His associates and aspiring to attain similar feelings gives rise to "greed" (lobha) to attain the similar feelings, and this lobha alone is the qualification to engage in raganuga-bhakti. Quite simple. Hear, want, get (in the end).

 

I would be rather careful about engaging in vaidhi-bhakti as a whole though. Vaidhi-bhakti by itself will result in a totally different goal than manjari-bhava; it will result in Vaikuntha-bhava of Narayana. Even performing the mixed version of raganuga-vaidhi for those who have not yet attained ruci, itself runs the risk of attaining the position of a Queen of Dvaraka. That's not too bad either, but the goal is to have a similar bhava to the gopikas of Vraja-dhama.

 

 

They are generously called ajata ruci raganuga sadhakas, which speaks only of their oreintation to Vraja bhakti/intimate love as opposed to devotion in Vaikuntha.

 

 

"Generously" called by whom, may I ask?

Personally, I don't see much difference between ajata and jata as far as practice is concerned, because both those who have attained ruci and those who have not are to practice the 64 angas of bhakti anyway. I don't think you'll find any advocate of "no rules" to be taken very seriously, as this is not the path which the Gosvamis or Visvanatha Cakravartipada outlined.

 

 

Otherwise raganuga proper requires ruci, if not rati, which is the basis of one's svarupa. So we should not make much out of little.

 

 

What is raganuga? What is ruci? What is rati? What is svarupa?

 

Ruci and rati are quite advanced stages anyway. Ruci comes after nistha is gained. How will anyone achieve all these stages if they do not practice raganuga-bhakti? After all; raga = sacred passion, anuga = following in the wake of. Raganuga is the process of following in the footsteps of those who have Ragatmika-bhakti, namely the associates of Krishna. Raganuga is a sadhana, not a sadhya (perfection).

 

And what of svarupa? What svarupa? The svarupa will most likely be given to the aspirant either at the time of diksa or afterwards. Svarupa-siddhi, however, is the realization of it.

 

 

Now if you are not initiated, you can do sadhu sanga, nama kirtana, and Vaisnava seva.

 

 

Yes, but there's no point to that if I have no clue as to my goal. What is the point of sadhu-sanga and so on if I do not know what I am trying to achieve? Having a firm conception in mind is necessary for all endeavours, even material ones. I have an idea, I need to think how to go about activating it, etc..

 

 

Books are to be studied under the guidance of a guru/sadhu.

 

 

Yes it is unfortunate that I do not have the association of a guru or sadhu at this time. However, I have the wonderful association of several practising devotees who are happy to answer any questions I may have as to following the path outlined by the Gosvamis. At this particular point, that's enough for me. I already have much to think about without going ahead and getting initiated right now! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guest guest]

By aspiring for qualification I mean aspiring for ruci and asakti wherein one can engage fully in raganuga sadhana at the point when sraddha is full and aprakrta in nature (sraddhanvitah). Before this it will be difficult to do smaranam at all no matter what anyone tells you becasue meditation requires a pure heart and arises out of kirtanam. Even if a guru assigns you a svarupa it will be difficult to take advantage of this and do samranam effectively until the eart is sufficiently purified. Furthermore one's svrupa will come out in the course of sravanama kirtanam at the stages of ruci and asakti (sadhana bhakti) and then one can engage more effectively in smaranam. Some tiny bit of lobha must be there to begin with no doubt, but to effectively enegage in the heart affair of raga bhakti the heart must be relatively clean. Then smarnam will remove all the last traces of lust that remain like the the smell of camphor in a box that remains after the camphor is gone.

 

If you think it is not too bad to become a queen in Dvaraka you do not have lobha for raga bhakti.

 

Ajata ruci is as generous a term as is the term kanistha adhikara Vaisnava. Without ruci there is not a lot of meaning to raganuga because this is what it is based upon. As much as it is an intellectual affair it is more in the realm of vaidhi, but becasue its goal is Vraja bhakti in some form, sakhya or sringara rasa, it is raganuga bhakti rather than the vaidhi bhakti that leads to Vaikuntha. The difference between raga bhakti and vaidhi bhakti is orientation. The practices are for the most part the same.

 

All Gaudiya Vaisnavas teach raganuga sadhana bhakti. Some call ajata ruci raganuga bhakti "vaidhi bhakti" becasue it contains no ruci and one's interest in it is based upon intellect and the srciptural injunctions that extoll its virtues. This may seem like a misnomer, but in fact the reality of ajata ruci raga is that it is primarily an intellectual interest in an affair that is of the purified heart. So it is not a really misnomer but a way of underscoring the glory of raga bhakti, unless of course it becomes misunderstood to mean the actual path of vaidhi bhakti itself leading to reverential love. Bhaktivinoda Thakura would be an example of this kind of preaching. Others insist that vaidhi cannot give raga and thus insit that they follow raganuga sadhana, and if pressed ajata ruci raganuga sadhna. Although they are correct, they seem to misunderstand what Bhaktivinoda meant when he stressed practicing vadhi until one is qualified for raga marg. Thus they may inordinately criticize those who take a conservative stance towards raganuga as recommended by Bhaktivinoda. Admittedly it is complicated by the fact that many of the followers of Bhaktivinoda through Bhaktisiddhanta have aslso misunderstood much of this.

 

Svarupa maybe given or somehting else may be given in the name of svarupa. The cautions of Bhaktisiddhanta are based on his actual experiene of a sham in the name of siddha pranali. Svarupa may not be given at all and still realized. Ruci is not svarupa siddhi, but it is the basis of it and when one attains it he can do meaningful bhajana as an advanced sadhaka. Just because raganuga is a sadhana does not mean every sahadka can do bhajana. Most need to do sravanam kirtanam until purification results.

[Guest guest]

I have been wondering what is this such a big thread with lots of posts in it.

[Gaurasundara]

Absolutely no idea!

 

I feel more sorry for Anadiji. He simply wanted to discuss where the sanga of Narayana Maharaja differs with ISKCON, and this has been taken over by a discussion about eligibility for raganuga-bhakti. Anyway, it is good to see that he is still posting his points, and giving us all something to think about.

[Guest guest]

***Pure raganuga, no. Pure raganuga = ragatmika. Raganuga = sadhana.

 

It is no principial. Pure raganuga no sadana. In sadhana you teach, in raganuga no teaching.

 

***Who is SRG?

 

Srila Rupa Gosvami.

 

***O me Lord, you do not able jump direct in Goloka, it is no possible. Read CC, you not read CC.

 

***I have reading CC. This is CC say:

 

***"By executing spontaneous devotional service in Vrndavana, one attains the original Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna." - CC Madhya 24.85

 

Yes, after sadhana bhakti. You not able serve spontaneous in first. You do not know himself where spontaneous? If you know himself, anybody you do not able serve spontaneous. It is obvious Gaura. Yes, "By executing spontaneous devotional service in Vrndavana, one attains the original Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna." but it is not first step bhakti.

 

***"By executing regulative devotional service, one becomes an associate of Narayana and attains the Vaikunthalokas, the spiritual planets in the spiritual sky." - CC Madhya 24.87

 

But if person not stay in this level need sadhana. I am take citation you read? In start nobody do not stay raganuga.

 

***Read up citations CC. Two CC citations I have given.

 

You do not understand whole contecst.

 

***First understand who is rupanuga.

 

***Rupa = Rupa Gosvami. Anuga = follower. Hence, Rupanuga = follower of Rupa Gosvami.

 

MOOD SRG, MOOD, who His mood, then you able stay rupanuga. Not this - "Rupa = Rupa Gosvami. Anuga = follower. Hence, Rupanuga = follower of Rupa Gosvami." no needs this commentary. Ok you may be 18 years, and you go for rupanuga. /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

***It is babaji deviant.

 

***That all depends on which particular babaji you are talking about.

 

 

Ok, those "babaji" who teach "raganuga" in start.

 

***So we need a "REAL" true guru higher than Rupa Gosvami?

 

no higher SRG, live guru needs. If person do not has serve, then very difficult search nice guru.

 

***She's twice-initiated,

 

Oooo.

 

***married to a disciple of Bhakti Caru Swami,

 

Oooo. /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

***and recently gave birth to a beautiful little boy.

 

O it is very good.

 

***Kailasa, this preaching is not very nice. Nothing is gained by insulting other people.

 

You be devotee SP, and then you ofence SP. Yes? In me post about SP, YES? No? I am may give this YOURS place. It is not very nice, then I am write you about this. Any way you speking for people who offencive SP.

 

 

***I know for a fact that Rupa Gosvami has never read Srila Prabhupada's books.

 

***No you not has this fact.

 

***Are you saying that Rupa Gosvami has read Srila Prabhupada's books?

 

I am speak - "You do non know read SRG or not." You do not know this is true.

 

***However, I hear that Gopalguru and Dhyanacandra Gosvamis listed Ramananda Raya as Visakha-sakhi in Gaura-lila. In any case it does not bother me, as the point is that Ramananda Raya is really a gopi in Vraja-lila, not just an "ordinary man."

 

Gaura Ganoddesa dipika very clear write - Ramananda Ray is Arjuna. He is Visakha in some role, I am write for you.

 

***First you hear of Krsna-lila, then you want to feel like that, so you keep hearing, then you take diksa from guru, then guru will teach you how to train to get feelings of Vrindavana residents, then you progress along this path, and attain the various goals. Then you die, and if successful sadhana has been, you go straight to Vraja. Very simple.

 

No first you hear Bhagavad Gita as it is, then SB. If you first hear "krisna-lila" it is not autoritete. Has two lila Krisna lila and gaura lila need stay in both. Some people simply materialist, then they do not able understand Gaura lila.

 

***Your knowlege wery small and not correct.

 

Yes.

 

***My above passage is more or less a candid explanation of Rupa Gosvami's famous "adau sraddha" verse.

 

Needs understand SRG. Needs understand all gosvamis, I am bring for you citation from Hansadutta. Needs understand SB, another it is cheat.

 

***Therefore according to you, Rupa Gosvami's knowledge is also "wery small and not correct."

 

I am write for you 15 time - needs go - BG as it is, SB, then CC, then gosvamis. If person read Gosvamis first, he do not understand.

 

***You do not has any feelings for Krisna lila in start.

 

***Why not? Simply hearing of Krishna's lilas with His asociates may cause a sadhaka to aspire for similar feelings.

 

Yes, in first needs sadhana. All has taste for material life, do not taste for Krisna. Sadhana rise mathure stage, then person has some feelings.

 

***That aspiration is called "greed." And this greed is the force behind raganuga-bhakti sadhana.

 

Yes, greed rise from sadhana.

It is not material greed.

 

***You do not know who is means "rati" for example.

 

***You know what is rati? How you know I not know rati? You explain rati?

 

First rays nama rasa.

 

***Yet Srila Prabhupada himself left Gaudiya Matha and started ISKCON. You thought like this?

 

***It is no GM, GM die. ISKCON is GM. Now "GM" it is only name. SP acarya.

 

**Very well, Kailasa. Gaudiya Math is dead. Long live ISKCON!

 

Yes, ISKCON it is true gaudia.

 

***Do not follow babaji. Any way it is no mutch serious.

 

***I am not following any babaji

 

It is good.

 

***or Gaudiya Matha or ISKCON or anything.

 

You do not stay in vacuum, then you will be follow some way. Do not harry, read BG-SB. Do not harry, then you take spiritual life-spiritual emotion very nice. If you has understand top bhakti then read only SP.

 

**I am reading books of Srila Prabhupada and other Acharyas, and understanding of Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta properly

 

You has understanding, it is good, but understand all it is not so simple.

 

***before I commit to taking a guru, this is understood?

 

Yours works need too.

[Guest guest]

****REFUTATION 9: Srila Prabhupada has given many different

comments to different people in different circumstances in regard to the origin of the jiva.

 

No. This same write SB, CC, SBT.

 

***&#8220;According to ViSNu Purana, Bhagavad-gItA and all other Vedic

literatures, the living entities are generated from the taSasthA energy

of the Lord, and thus they are always the energy of the Lord and are

not the energetic.&#8221; (Srimad-BhAgavatam

3.7.9)

 

Yes, Vaikuntha, material world. You follow material conception.

 

***&#8220;The CONCLUSION is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or

Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.&#8221; (Srimad-BhAgavatam

3.16.26)

 

Yes, all who stay in Vaikuntha, they do not falls. But some soul WAS fall. Spiritual world absolute, then some souls fall imemorial, anadi. It is means word "anadi". When? - andi - spiritual world do not has time, then no possible answer - "when soul FALL" answer - anadi. You understand. Anyway sastra speak - "soul fall."

[Guest guest]

***Haribol prabhu, but now I must take a heavy book bag and go sell them on the street.

 

O, it is true way.

[anadi]

OBJECTION 9: Srila Prabhupada and Srila NarayaNa MahArAja have

different teachings about the original position of the jéva (the

individual soul).

REFUTATION 9:

“The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krishna

consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where

Krishna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their FIRST

opportunity to associate with Krishna personally and directly. The

training goes on, as we see in vRndävana-lila.” (Krishna Book:

Chapter Twenty-eight)

 

“The CONCLUSION is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or

Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.” (Çrémad-Bhägavatam

3.16.26)

 

This article is a reply to the paper entitled “ISKCON’s position on Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja” by His Grace Badri-nArAyaNa Prabhu.

 

The following article will examine, one by one, the points made in that paper, in the light of scriptural evidence and the statementsof Srila Prabhupada himself. Statements of the ISKCON position paper will be refered to as OBJECTION, and ours as REFUTATION.

 

[Gaurasundara]

 

By aspiring for qualification I mean aspiring for ruci and asakti wherein one can engage fully in raganuga sadhana at the point when sraddha is full and aprakrta in nature (sraddhanvitah).

 

 

I had a chance to check my copy of Madhurya Kadambini (ISKCON version). However, please try to understand this:

 

adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sango 'tha bhajana-kriya tato 'nartha-nivrttih syat tato nistha rucis tatah

athasaktis tato bhavas tatah premabhyudancati sadhakanam ayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah - CC Madhya 23.14-15, also BRS 1.4.15-16

 

In fact, CC Madhya 9-13 are good descriptions also. This all shows the gradual process that is to be followed. In any case, ruci and rati/bhava are fairly advanced stages in this sequence. If one has no nistha, how can one get ruci? If one has no asakti (which is the mature stage of ruci) then how can one get rati? Certainly sraddha is the beginning, but one also needs sadhu-sanga and bhajana-kriya as a good basis and beginning. The stage of 'bhajana-kriya' is oft used to denote initiation, so without initiation one cannot really begin the process of bhajan as a whole, since bhajan begins with diksa.

 

 

Before this it will be difficult to do smaranam at all no matter what anyone tells you becasue meditation requires a pure heart and arises out of kirtanam.

 

 

Certainly it may be difficult to do proper smaranam in the beginning. Srila Visvanatha describes anisthitha-bhakti in his Madhurya Kadambini (I think I've already mentioned this in the "Evolution" thread) and those six symptoms of anisthita-bhakti are basically the obstacles that prevent us from practising smaranam proper. However, there is a famous saying; 'Who Dares, Wins.' If one does not try to achieve a steady level of bhakti, how will one ever achieve it? Nothing can be gained without effort:

 

"The goal of life [sadhya] cannot be achieved unless one practices the process [sadhana]." - CC Madhya 8.197

 

I must say that I respectfully question your comment about smaranam/meditation requiring a pure heart. In the First Shower of Madhurya-kadambini, Visvanatha uses SB 10.33.39 as an example of how bhakti can sprout in a heart that is still filled with lusty desires. He makes a case out of the word 'pratilabhya' which apparently means 'having attained.' "Here by the tense of the verb pratilabhya it is clear that bhakti first manifests while there are still lusty desires in the heart. Then after her manifestation, lusty desires are wiped out." (Page 9)

Cakravartipada certainly has more to say but I find it absolutely fascinating that he makes this point because just previously to that, he specifically states that purity of heart is a requirement for the practise of jnana-yoga, and that if one falls down from this practice then one is abominable. So really, according to Visvanatha Cakravarti, "though one may be afflicted wby lust one has the qualification (adhikara) to begin the practice." (page 9). As we all know, we are bhakti-yogis and not jnana-yogis. Besides:

 

sa ca lobho rAga vartma vartinAM bhaktAnAM guru-padASraya lakSaNam Arabhya svAbhISTa vastu sAkSAt prApti samayam abhivyApya "yathA yathAtma parimRjyate'sau mat puNya gAthA SravaNAbhidhAnaiH, tathA tathA paSyati vastu sUkSmaM cakSur YathaivAJjana samprayuktam |

"iti bhagavad ukter bhakti hetukAntaH karaNa Suddhi tAratamyAt prati dinam adhikAdhiko bhAvati ||(rvc 1.8)

 

"It is described that the devotees on the path of raga Gradually progress from the initial surrender to the feet of Sri Guru up to the stage of directly attaining the object of their desires. 'When the eye is smeared with medicinal ointment, its ability of perception becomes more and more refined, and accordingly it is able to perceive more and more subtle objects; similarly, according to the degree of the mind's having become purified by hearing and chanting of My purifying pastimes, all the subtle truths of reality become manifest in the heart of the sadhaka.'

"From these words of the Lord it is known that through sadhana-bhakti the consciousness of the sadhaka becomes more purified every day, and he gradually becomes more and more greedy."

 

 

Even if a guru assigns you a svarupa it will be difficult to take advantage of this and do samranam effectively until the eart is sufficiently purified.

 

 

Certainly, but some smaranam must be there. In fact, according to Srila Narottama das Thakura, the entire practice of smaranam, as long as one is a sadhaka, is considered unripe. Only after attaining perfection (prema) is one considered "ripe." This would be the whole point of sadhana, that we are unripe so we practice the sadhana to make ourselves ripe?

There's another good point about taking advantage of a guru-given svarupa. This is probably why Srila Bhaktivinoda wrote: "The sadhana is executed in five progressive stages: sravana-dasa (the stage of hearing), varana-dasa (the stage of accepting), smarana-dasa (the stage of remembering), apana-dasa (the stage of maturing), and sampatti-dasa (the stage of attainment)." - Harinama Cintamani 15/28

So, at least from Bhaktivinoda's view, one should make use of the siddha-deha by any means necessary, if only to hear and accept it before beginning to remember it.

 

 

Furthermore one's svrupa will come out in the course of sravanama kirtanam at the stages of ruci and asakti (sadhana bhakti) and then one can engage more effectively in smaranam.

 

 

Sravanam and kirtanam are really to be engaged at all times and it should not stop:

 

""Due to having great relish for the holy name, one is inclined to chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra constantly." - CC Madhya 23.32

 

Although this verse describes a sadhaka who has reached the level of bhava. Sravanam-kirtanam will be indulged in with great relish at the time of attaining ruci. Asakti is really a mature stage of ruci, as it says in Madhurya-kadambini. As far as this text is concerned, the savarupa seems to "come out" at the stage of bhava, since Visvanatha mentions that the "ahanta ('I') of the sadhaka seems as if to enter into a siddha-deha suitable to his desire to serve the Lord and his material body remains almost as if he has left it." (page 43)

 

 

Some tiny bit of lobha must be there

 

 

Only a tiny bit? You know, raganuga-sadhana functions almost totally by your greed for it.

 

vrajalIlA parikarastha SRNgArAdi bhAva mAdhurye Srute dhIr idaM mama bhUyAt iti lobhotpattikAle SAstra yukty apekSA nA syAt satyAM ca tasyAM lobhatvasyaivAsiddheH |

nahi kenacit SAstra dRSTyA lobhaH kriyate nApi lobhanIya Vastu prAptau svasya yogyAyogyatva vicAraH ko ’py udbhAvati. kintu lobhanyIa vastuni Srute dRSTe vA svata eva lobha utpadyate ||

 

"If, upon hearing of the sweetness of the feelings,headed by passion, of Sri Krsna's associates in the Vraja-lila, one thinks, ‘Let me also attain such feelings,’ then at this time one need not depend either on the revealed scriptures or on favorable logical considerations. If such dependence remains, it cannot be said that greed has appeared. Greed never arises in anyone because of scriptural considerations, and in anyone who is desirous to attain the object of the greed, no considerations of qualification or lack of qualification arise. Rather, greed arises only by hearing about the object of greed or by seeing it." (rvc 1.5)

 

 

If you think it is not too bad to become a queen in Dvaraka you do not have lobha for raga bhakti.

 

 

Why not? What if that is what I want to attain? The Gopis are on the highest level of madhurya-rasa, that is fine. But what if I want to serve Krishna in the mood of a cowherd boy or as a parent in vatsalya-rasa? These relationships are known as sambhandhAnugA whereas the amorous category is known as kAmAnugA. It is then obvious that DvArakA-mahiSi-bhAva (Dvaraka-queen-bhava) belongs to the svakiya type whereas the Gopi-bhava is of the parakiya type. So you can follow raganuga-bhakti in all of these different types of relationships as long as your sacreed greed has arisen for it. The real key is to first hear of Krishna's pastimes; when you hear of His dealings with a particular associate and you wish to experience the same feelings as THAT associate no matter who they are, whether cowherd boy or parent or gopi, your lobha has awoken. The very fact that you wish to attain the same feelings is the symptom of your awoken/awakening lobha.

 

Simple.

 

 

Ajata ruci is as generous a term as is the term kanistha adhikara Vaisnava. Without ruci there is not a lot of meaning to raganuga because this is what it is based upon.

 

 

Let us try to understand that ragaunuga-bhakti is a sadhana first and foremost, not a perfection. It is something to be practised and not "attained." Basically you have faith then you associate with devotees then you accept initiation (bhajana-kriya). NOW is the time to decide whether you want to follow one of two paths; vaidhi or raganuga. As they are two distinct paths which lead to different results. As stated before, ruci comes a little later. The important point at the stage of bhajana-kriya is to decide where to go next. And after that comes anartha-nivritti. The practice of whichever bhakti you choose enables anartha-nivritti to start.

Other than that, I cannot see any other needful definition of ajata-ruci-raganuga other than the one that was previously given:

 

ajAta-tAdRSa-rucinA tu sad-viSeSAdara-mAtrAdRtA rAgAnugApi vaidhI-saMvalitaivAnuSTheyA | tathä loka-saMgrahArthaM pratiSTitena jAta-tAdRSa-rucinA ca | atra miSratve ca yathA-yogyaM rAgAnugAyaikI kRtyaiva vaidhI kartavyA || (Bhakti-sandarbha 312)

 

"Those in whom such taste (ruci) has not awakened, but who have a special interest for it, should engage in a mixture of rAgAnugA and vaidhI. For the sake of establishing an example for the people of the world, the one in whom such ruci has awakened will do the same. Therefore, as appropriate, rAgAnugA should be performed together with vaidhI."

 

 

The difference between raga bhakti and vaidhi bhakti is orientation. The practices are for the most part the same.

 

 

This is correct, as far as I know.

 

 

All Gaudiya Vaisnavas teach raganuga sadhana bhakti. Some call ajata ruci raganuga bhakti "vaidhi bhakti" becasue it contains no ruci and one's interest in it is based upon intellect and the srciptural injunctions that extoll its virtues. This may seem like a misnomer, but in fact the reality of ajata ruci raga is that it is primarily an intellectual interest in an affair that is of the purified heart. So it is not a really misnomer but a way of underscoring the glory of raga bhakti, unless of course it becomes misunderstood to mean the actual path of vaidhi bhakti itself leading to reverential love.

 

 

This nice theory may be true I don't know, but we do not see this happening in reality in such organisations such as Gaudiya Matha and ISKCON. Surprisingly, several rasika Vaishnavas have come out of these organisations such as BP Puri Maharaja and Gour Govinda Swami. I find that intriguing, but at the same time based on what I said in another thread, it appears that the "inherent" theory is at work here as opposed to the "acquired" theory in regards to siddha-deha. However, some people do not recognise the inherent theory, I don't know why.

 

 

Bhaktivinoda Thakura would be an example of this kind of preaching.

 

 

Certainly Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura preached certain dynamic ideas, but in his own personal sadhana practice he was as orthodox and traditional as they come. This leads us to speculate over whether he ever intended to actually carry out his ideas or have someone else do it. They say a letter exists to that effect, but it authorises only daiva-varnasrama as far as I know.

 

 

Others insist that vaidhi cannot give raga and thus insit that they follow raganuga sadhana, and if pressed ajata ruci raganuga sadhna. Although they are correct, they seem to misunderstand what Bhaktivinoda meant when he stressed practicing vadhi until one is qualified for raga marg. Thus they may inordinately criticize those who take a conservative stance towards raganuga as recommended by Bhaktivinoda. Admittedly it is complicated by the fact that many of the followers of Bhaktivinoda through Bhaktisiddhanta have aslso misunderstood much of this.

 

 

That's true. But it's also important to remember that Bhaktivinoda was a member of one particular line and also had different ideas of raganuga-bhakti, for whatever reason, that were not in line with the path outlined by the Six Gosvamis and later Acharyas like Visvanatha and Narottama. As such, it appears that his work and ideas have not been taken as seriously within the entire Gaudiya Vaishnava community, except perhaps the disciplic line coming from Srila Sarasvati Thakura.

 

 

Svarupa maybe given or somehting else may be given in the name of svarupa.

 

 

Like what?

 

 

The cautions of Bhaktisiddhanta are based on his actual experiene of a sham in the name of siddha pranali.

 

 

Would you mind giving me details about this "sham"? Bhaktivinoda himself was as orthodox as they come, as he himself practised ekadasa-bhava, siddha-pranali and astakaliya-lila all of his life from the time of his diksa till the time he left his body. In fact, during the last days h e was absorbed 24/7 in his bhajan with no interruption. Now that's inspiring! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

 

Svarupa may not be given at all and still realized. Ruci is not svarupa siddhi, but it is the basis of it and when one attains it he can do meaningful bhajana as an advanced sadhaka.

 

 

But this is not what Bhaktivinoda says. According to his views, the svarupa is first 'heard of' (sravana-dasa). As is likely, the svarupa would be first heard of at the time of diksa (bhajana-kriya) or afterwards, so how can ruci be the basis of it if it really starts at bhajana-kriya?

 

 

Just because raganuga is a sadhana does not mean every sahadka can do bhajana. Most need to do sravanam kirtanam until purification results.

 

 

Well, that all really depends on what we mean by 'bhajan.' Bhajan means worship, but what kind of worship? Sravanam? Kirtanam? Arca-murti-seva? Lila-smarana? Gurus generally give siddha-pranali if they think that the disciple is qualified to receive it, and this may be at the time of diksa or afterwards. In any case one has to be sufficiently purified to receive diksa in the first place, that's a fact.

[Guest guest]

this is what gaurasundar sounds like if you take away

all the bengali or sanskrit or quotes he tries

to give his import to.

 

" If you want to be a gopi don't follow the path of

rules and regulations,you might only end up being

a queen, if you want to be the most you can be

then you have to pretend you are that,then you are qualified,all you have to do is want it bad enough,

just click your slippers 3 times and next thing you know,

you can be a gopi".

 

the funny thing about all of this is your intensity,

you reeeaaalllly think this is what bhakti is all about.

 

"it would be so horrible to not be a gopi,just a queen ?

yuck, not me,i'm to good for that,i'm special,the most special,i reject those lesser mortals who will "ONLY"

be with Krsna in dwarka,in palace life,wealth,etc,

while I'll be in Vraja,REALLY enjoying."

 

what people like him do not realize is that these ideas were created specifically for them,they have a superficial

understanding and an overgrown over inflated sense of their true ability and level, they serve their ego with a view to

use Bhakti to gain as much as they can.

 

so a process is there for them,it tells them 'yes ,you CAN

be the highest ,most pleasurable,topmost position enjoyer,

just do this and do that,it's easy,no big deal,just want it,and presto you are ready.'

 

so they follow the mental process of raganuga sadhaana and siddha pranali,and are purified by that,eventually,

 

eventually they realize that it is not about gaining the most or gaining a position,it is about giving love,giving

your self for the desire of Radha Krsna,and association

with the sanga in a mood of service to their desires.

 

at that stage they feel unqualified for anything,they realize our true nature and our complete and utter dependence

for any and everything in life.

[anadi]

OBJECTION 9: Srila Prabhupada and Srila NarayaNa MahArAja have

different teachings about the original position of the jéva (the

individual soul).

REFUTATION 9 part 3 :

For further information on this very important subject of the

origin of the jiva, one may refer to <font color="red"> “Srila PrabhupAda on the Source

of the Jiva”</font color>, compiled by <font color="blue"> Srila Gour Govinda SwAmi</font color>, where he gives

about 100 supportive quotes by Srila Prabhupäda, as well as many

by our previous AcAryas. One such quote is the following letter:

“In further reference to your question about the form of the spirit

soul of the conditioned living entity; there is a spiritual form always,

but it develops fully ONLY when the living entity goes back to

Vaikuntha. This form develops according to the desire of the living

entity. Until this perfectional stage is reached, the form is lying

dormant like the form of a tree is lying dormant in the seed.” (Letter

to Rupanaga:1969)

 

<font color="red"> “The CONCLUSION is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or

Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.” (Srimad-BhAgavatam

3.16.26)</font color>

 

<font color="blue"> This article is a reply to the paper entitled “ISKCON’s position on Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja” by His Grace Badri-nArAyaNa Prabhu.

 

The following article will examine, one by one, the points made in that paper, in the light of scriptural evidence and the statementsof Srila Prabhupada himself. Statements of the ISKCON position paper will be refered to as OBJECTION, and ours as REFUTATION. </font color>

[Gaurasundara]

 

this is what gaurasundar sounds like if you take away

all the bengali or sanskrit or quotes he tries

to give his import to.

 

 

And here's me thinking that we should refer to sastra to backup our points. Forgive me, I am in error and I should rely on my fertile imagination instead. This is the correct path.

 

 

the funny thing about all of this is your intensity,

you reeeaaalllly think this is what bhakti is all about.

 

"it would be so horrible to not be a gopi,just a queen ?

yuck, not me,i'm to good for that,i'm special,the most special,i reject those lesser mortals who will "ONLY"

be with Krsna in dwarka,in palace life,wealth,etc,

while I'll be in Vraja,REALLY enjoying."

 

 

I never said anything of the sort. Look, do us all a favour and read the books of Srila Prabhupada. He himself is the one who informs us that the rasas are progressively higher than the previous due to intimacy with Krishna that is free from awe and reverence. Also, consider the conversation between Mahaprabhu and Ramananda Raya:

 

"The Lord said, 'Your statements are certainly getting better and better one after the other, but surpassing all of them is another transcendental mellow, and you can speak of that as the most sublime." Ramananda Raya then replied, 'Conjugal attachment for Krsna is the topmost position in love of Godhead.'" - CC Madhya 8.79

 

The point here is that pure love of God is fully relished when there is pure intimacy, and the qualities of awe and reverence are conspicuous by their absence. The relationships of the Queens of Dvaraka certainly have awe and reverence present in them, and even though their mellow is conjugal it is still svakiya. Only the gopis are on the level of parakiya-rasa. And parakiya-rasa, by definition, is far more exciting than svakiya-rasa.

 

As for the rest of your post, it is full of self-indulgent sarcasm and rudeness that does not merit a reply.

[Guest guest]

 

this is what gaurasundar sounds like if you take away

all the bengali or sanskrit or quotes he tries

to give his import to.

 

 

--

 

And here's me thinking that we should refer to sastra to backup our points. Forgive me, I am in error and I should rely on my fertile imagination instead. This is the correct path.

 

 

 

I'm all for quoting sastra. I just wish those who quoted it would take the trouble to learn the language of the texts they quote.

 

[Guest guest]

 

I am not following any babaji or Gaudiya Matha or ISKCON or anything. I am reading books of Srila Prabhupada and other Acharyas, and understanding of Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta properly before I commit to taking a guru, this is understood?

 

 

 

What I believe he is trying to tell us is this:

 

We must have a diksa guru to be Gaudiya Vaishnavas.

 

But Gaurasundara can take siksa from books, not have a diksa guru, and still lecture us on this point (even though he himself isn't following it).

 

This leads to a natural contradiction. Since one can only learn Gaudiya Vaishnavism through a diksa guru (Gaurasundara's position), then how do we know anything he says about Gaudiya Vaishnavism is correct?

 

The argument that one can learn and know properly from books only minimizes the importance of diksa.

 

If one can learn indeed from books, then logically one could claim someone as his only guru even if an initiation ceremony were not performed. If one must have an initiation ceremony in order to be considered a legitimate Gaudiya Vaishnava, then Gaurasundara's views must be rejected as illegitimate since he has no diksa guru.