Those not in-line with my way of spirituality as inferior and in need of conversion?

[Guest guest]

 

Is it proper for me to have this preaching mentality:

 

to "see" all those that are not in-line with my way of

 

spirituality as inferior and in need of conversion ?

[gHari]

For me it's okay. For you it's wrong.

[gHari]

The devil made me do it!

[anadi]

Is it proper for me to have this preaching mentality:

to "see" all those that are not in-line with my way of spirituality as inferior and in need of conversion ?

 

To see that they are in need

of love.

And if you cannot give love?

 

At least make them more open for love?

Indicate some direction, on the one that could give it?

Explain something is even your duty.

Only love can save.

[bhaktachris]

Hare Krsna Prabhus,

 

My mother once told me that Prabhupada is "rable-rouser" (whatever that means) she meant that He is a "mover and shaker", an authority that can make things happen.

 

I pointed out that Jesus the Christ is too, because they are speaking out on what everyone thinks is normal but it is not "normal", we should be free from this temporary material world of bondage in these bodies.

 

Prabhupada speeks with such URGENCY such authority and great intelligence, since we hear from Him we want to copy His greatness. But i am full of faults and also i am thinking on the bodily platform so it comes out wrong many times.

 

Bhaktivedanta Swami is like a lion, he is fearless, and "king" of men. What conditioned soul in a Man's body following Him would not like to be like Him?

 

I have also come to understand that there are times when i am on the bodily platform of thinking when i express my feelings towards Prabhupada in relation to other Acaryas.

 

And i am sorry for that, please forgive me. I am your servant trying to fulfill an "unpopular" service for the Sampradaya Acarya for this age......cow protection

[Guest guest]

Intolerance a Fact of Christianity? Is intolerance one facet of the doctrine of Lord Jesus

 

 

 

 

 

 

Intolerance a Fact of Christianity?

===================================

 

Is intolerance one facet of the doctrine of Lord Jesus Christ? According

to the judgement of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta, the followers of

the Hare Krishna movement are also followers of Lord Jesus Christ. But how

do the modern followers of Lord Jesus feel about having Hare Krishna people

as fellow worshippers in the body of Christ?

According to two prominent spokespersons for Jesus--Jerry Farwell and

Jimmy Swaggart--Jesus is the only way. Earlier this year Jimmy Swaggart

expressed his opinion about reincarnation and the new age movement on his

religious TV show. Swaggart's opinion is that unless one accepts Jesus

exclusively, one cannot go to heaven. In that same program, Swaggart went

on to decry the validity of reincarnation and Hindu faith when compared to

the "only way". Similarly, Moral Majority and PTL spokesman Jerry Farwell

appeared on Larry King's national radio program to declare that only by

salvation through Jesus can one get to heaven.

This type of propaganda on behalf of Lord Jesus Christ is not approved by

the followers of the Vedic philosophy of Krishna consciousness. However

this idea that Lord Jesus Christ is the only way back to the kingdom of God

is a misunderstanding of an often quoted statement of Jesus's: "No one goes

before the Father except through Me" as Lord Jesus does say.

That statement of Jesus's is accepted and interpreted by Krishna devotees

in a different manner than as being done by Farwell and Swaggart and other

like-minded Christians. The idea is that Lord Jesus Christ was giving

mankind the unadulterated path back to the kingdom of God. Any mortal man

who wanted to deny the authority given to Jesus by God and claim that he can

go to heaven without the mercy of saints like Jesus has no real chance of

actually doing so. God observes the activities of men and when He sees that

their activities are so sinful that they do not care to make any progress in

understanding Him, He kindly sends some representative to Earth so that He

can spread spiritual propaganda for the benefit of man's sanity. In Jesus's

time just as today, men were also foolish enough to think that Jesus was

another mortal just as themselves and therefore they denied to accept His

messages on behalf of His divine Father in heaven. And Jesus was simply

stating actual fact that He had come to deliver the divine science of God

consciousness and cautioned anyone from thinking that they should neglect

the divine messages. It is a great mystery that the representative of God

appears before the eyes of mortal men in the flesh when in actuality such a

great soul has all the powers of God--not because He is God--but because

such a soul is intimately connected to God and is performing the work of

God. Therefore such souls like Jesus fully represent the almighty God in

heaven, and God, in turn, fully protects, guides and empowers such a divine

agent during the course of His mortal activities. Jesus warned the people

who generally are unaware of the spiritual science that they should be very

careful and not neglect His instructions regarding the spiritual science.

That's why he warned anyone from thinking that they could go to God by

thinking that they could neglect Him out of their own enlarged egos. But

Jesus did not mean that He was the only real spokesperson for God to be

accepted exclusively among all men for all time.

The same warning is equally applicable today. No one should dare to

neglect the words of God and God's representative. But the disease that

causes all living beings to come into this world is a strong desire to

oppose God in all respects. In order to prove to everyone how strong the

opposition to God is, God staged a real-life drama whereby Lord Jesus--His

representative--was betrayed by His intimate disciple, mercilessly dealt

with without respect and finally crucified. While those persons strongly

opposed to God may go on thinking that such incidents prove how impotent the

representatives of God are so that they can be tortured and killed this way

under God's care, those faithful followers of Jesus can take comfort in the

knowledge that by following in His footsteps, they can also be resurrected

like Him and enter into the eternal and happy kingdom of God.

There are many such religious real-life dramas that are put into action by

the Supreme Lord throughout history and in various parts of the world.

Whenever the representative of God descends or whenever God Himself comes,

there is a great story behind such events. Such extraordinary events are

filled with confidential knowledge concerning the true nature of reality and

remains forever mysterious to those who hold tight to the opinion that the

forces of nature are meant to be controlled by man until he is satisfied in

all respects. Man is never independently divine. But when he serves God,

only then he may revive his godly nature and become divine in that

connection. Countless examples are given throughout history by the various

saints and incarnations of God to show how to become divine by service to

the Supreme.

All such divine persons--be they the innumerable incarnations of God or

God's chosen representatives--are equally qualified to make the above

mentioned statement: "No one goes to God except through Me". This

statement is not exclusive of any other divinity, rather, it is an

affirmation that God is non-dual and that acceptance of any divine agent is

as good as another providing that such divinity is indeed a bona fide agent

of the Supreme. What is it that makes Christians, Hindus, Buddhists,

Moslems, Jews, etc., all spiritually beneficial? It is because such ideas

given therein help the sleeping conditioned soul come to know about God

through a gradual process of discipline and progressive spiritual culture if

followed according to the original intent of their respective divine

preceptors. That "if" is a "big if" because in this current age of Kali-

yuga, there is every chance that any and all religious methods can become

corrupted up to the point of causing great havoc upon society.

That's why the Vedic Advocate wonders how deeply rooted is the present

propaganda concerning the so-called supremacy of Christianity doctrine in

comparison to any and all other types of religious processes. It is seen as

a misinterpretation of the words of the Divinity only and not a true

representation of His messages.

In a conversation with a post-graduate seminarian and Clinical

Psychologist recently, one Dr. J. Bairrington of Texas tells of his

perplexing situation where he has to give some advice to followers of Vedic

philosophy. He wondered about advising his Eastern patients about their

Vedic religion. After suggesting that he should not try to convert such

patients to Christianity but rather he might try reinforcing their native

religious ideas, he said in one letter:

"I understand what you say very well, that the Vedic Philosophy accepts

Christ as the Son of God, and also accepts Buddha as the messenger of God,

and accepts Mohammed as the Prophet of God. The Christian Philosophy and

the Holy Bible demands that one accept ONLY Christ as the Son of God and all

others as men with perhaps a deep sense of faith but not having the WORD of

God as Jesus Christ DID have."

Here Dr. Bairrington is also giving the idea that Christ's theology is the

"only" true "word" of God, while others were not divine, but simply men with

great faith.

What then happens to those Easterners who seek out help from this

Christian Fundamentalist/Psychologist?

"Most of them accept the teachings of Jesus Christ as the Word of God.

They accept his sacrifice as having been done not only for all men, but also

specifically for each man who will accept Jesus AS their Lord and Savior.

In taking this step of Faith they then become 'Christians', or followers of

Christ and desert the Vedic Philosophy completely. They then unite with the

'Body of Christ' which in the Holy Bible are the members of His Church.

They do this as an act in their search for the proper path to God."

Whereas on the other hand, those who adopt the ideas given by the Hare

Krishna Vedic doctrine do not at all abandon any religion. Rather, they see

all paths back to God as absolutely necessary for all men who want to regain

their eternal spiritual nature and make an attempt to turn their minds back

to sanity.

The reason why such followers prefer the Vedic culture as being propagated

through the books of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada,

is that the method of reviving the connection between God and man is given

in practical terms. That method is given in the Bhagavad-gita where Lord

Krishna says that one should think of God, serve God and focus the mind on

God always without cessation. Therefore the devotees of Krishna are always

repeating the Holy Names of the Supreme Lord such as "Krishna" and "Rama" as

in the Hare Krishna maha-mantra: Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna

Hare Hare/Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare. Such repetition of the

Holy Name of God means that the devotee of God is requesting the Supreme

Lord to appear within the mind of the devotee without interruption. It is

not a method of brainwashing as charged by some critics, but such

consciousness is the original condition of the living being. All the living

beings are eternal parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord. As such, the

living beings are also eternally full of knowledge about their relationship

with the Lord and are most happy in His association. But somehow or other,

the living beings had desired to exercise their free will and chose to

forget about God. In order to fulfill such wishes, God provides a place in

the Creation whereby such unconsciousness can be given an opportunity to

express itself; namely, the dark material universes known in sanskrit as

"mrityu loka" or the world of death and mortality. Otherwise, full Krishna

consciousness is a primeval characteristic of the eternal living beings

despite any allegiance to a particular race or religion. In this way,

Krishna consciousness is non-sectarian. There is never a question of

conversion from one religion to another. Rather, it is the process of

seeing everything and everyone as connected to God.

Intolerance may be called a religion's racism but cannot be taken as the

Word of God. As men were born to compete fiercely in this world through

politics and warfare, when religion is used for such competition, it is

usually out of misunderstanding of God's message. It is natural to feel

secure, proud and safe under the expert guidance of such great religious

personalities like Jesus and others. However, it is easy to become

overwhelmed by zealousness and unguarded pride in the absence of such great

spiritual masters. Under misguided passion, a neophyte advocate of religion

may even give some contrary ideas under good intentions. However, no amount

of so-called good ideas created by the fanciful human mind should infiltrate

the pure messages of God which causes the adulteration and deterioration of

the purity of the original divine revelation. No one should deny God's

offering divine salvation for all men in the name of religious intolerance.

Rather, God Himself is intolerant of such religious supremacists and He'll

not tolerate such a narrow view in His name. God is offering everyone

salvation but when a person thinks of and declares himself as possessing

God's mercy, actually he really does not at all have it. Only those persons

who never feel they deserve the mercy of God but strongly desire it;

actually, they do have the mercy of God and very soon they'll be promoted to

the Supreme Abode. But those who already consider themselves as "saved" by

God's Supreme Grace have not as yet achieved salvation and are called

"demukta manina" or falsely thinking themselves as liberated and fooling

themselves.

Some people are surprised that religion can be used as a tool for self-

centered and self-interested motives, but everyone should know that religion

is also not free from abuse. On the contrary, it has been predicted that in

this Kali-yuga or the modern age of hypocrisy and ceaseless fighting over

trivial matters, religion will be the refuge of the irreligious posing as

religious men in order to exploit the resources of innocent followers. It

should come as no great surprise that, as there is overwhelming and

widespread corruption and falsity in every sphere of human endeavor such as

political, familial, social and communal dealings, we must be forewarned and

take a realistic view that such falsity may as well exist in the religious

arena without exception to some extent. Therefore, giving a blanket seal of

approval to all those who claim divine authority is not at all recommended

in practicality. Such blind following of any religious authority is

condemned in the Vedic literatures as well as from a common sense viewpoint

also. Never do the Vedic literatures or bona fide saints squelch the

intelligent questions from an inquisitive student of the transcendental

science and thus encourage anti-intellectualism as popularly charged by the

opponents of theism. The messages of God are Absolute Truth without a

doubt, but that does not at all mean that questions into the Absolute

science need go unanswered. But the researcher into the science of God must

be fully satisfied in his mind in all respects about the supremacy of the

position of God which will lead to the perfection of life. Such perfection

is reached when a person has gained factual and nonduplicitous knowledge

about the existence of God and thus has established some measure of faith in

his mind that God is real. Without undergoing the process of satisfying the

mind with the various concepts and arguments given in the bona fide

religious scriptures about the powers and influence of God, no one can be

successful in establishing a firm foundation in his spiritual journey toward

God. The Hare Krishna movement has been established on this principle of

presenting various transcendental ideas as given from the ancient Bhagavad-

gita and Shrimad Bhagavatam and comparing them to the best of the civilized

concepts moving the world today. The disciples of Shrila Prabhupada--the

founder of the Krishna movement--have concluded by comparing the ideology of

modern scientific and empiric movements and the ancient culture of the

Bhagavad-gita, that there can be no happiness and forward march of

civilization by neglecting to recognize God as the goal of all human

endeavor as being done in today's secular society. However, increasingly

popular is the philosophy of humanism, or the idea that man is the highest

expression of intelligence along with a breakdown of traditional religious

values. There is no practical need to look to a God for answers; but by

human endeavor alone will the problems of life become solved until that time

man has established that utopia here in the material world(?) It is not

possible. Ironically, when so-called theists use religion is as a method of

apartheid, it only makes it more difficult to understand the true purpose of

religious life.

It is impossible for any religion to insure the proper behavior of its

adherents. A man claiming to be following the rules and regulations

governing Christian life, for example, may not actually be doing so in truth

despite all outward appearances and performances of Christian rituals and

social duties. The propaganda being spread by so many atheistic and

humanistic persons nowadays is based upon the inability for self-proclaimed

religious men to follow their respective religious tenets. They'll find

fault with the behavior of the self-proclaimed followers of religion and

conclude that not only the process of atheism is conducive to a more

fulfilled life, but that God and His commands are the source of a host of

problems and faulty behavior for the theistic class of men. The fact that

God cannot insure the proper behavior of the followers of religion is not

due to the fault of the religious process, but it is due to the inability of

man to act distinguish and act according to Divine instruction. One of the

items that is nonconducive toward advancement in religious life is to

blindly accept religious teachings and fall prey to false indoctrination in

the name of God. No real religious process can support blind following, and

the sober questioning of any religious authority is absolutely necessary

until the mind and intelligence finds real peace without the ghosts of doubt

and uncertainty. God demands one surrender unto Him utterly without

reservation and the price one pays in such spiritual sacrifice is either

eternal life with Him in His Supreme Abode, or in the case of surrendering

to a phony agent in the name of God, one sells his soul away and cannot get

to the desired Supreme destiny.

The question of religious intolerance can be given more and more

consideration because the world is getting smaller due to the gradual

formation of one world culture. Clearly, the science of religion

establishes that there is only one Supreme Divinity and that all faithful

theists and thinking men should combine together to establish this

practically for the cause of mankind's spiritual upliftment. In this

connection, there is one verse from the Bhagavad-gita (5.29) which states

that God is the Lord of the entire creation as well as all the living beings

who inhabit it. And when everyone is working and dedicating his efforts

into the cause of establishing God as that Supreme Lord in this godless

world, such transcendental effort is the cause of liberation from all the

miseries of mortal life. What sincere theist can deny that agenda of

practical work? However, the manufactured doctrines of the pseudoreligious

leaders of spiritual life place more importance in maintaining institutional

loyalties with its concomitant material boons and thus discourage the growth

of proper spiritual intelligence.

Prabhupada spoke about the importance of Americans in the role of molding

the quality of the world culture regarding belief in God. He said that

Americans are first and leaders in everything. Whatever happens in America,

the whole world wants to imitate the Americans. So Prabhupada kindly

requested all Americans to take up the mission of becoming God conscious--

Krishna conscious persons--and chant the holy names of God in emotional

ecstasy and love of God. Then the whole world would imitate such behavior.

So, such a vision may be possible--not by the spread of propaganda for

religious supremacy--but when people realize that spiritual culture is

absolutely necessary for man's progress toward knowledge. What makes the

Krishna philosophy unique is that it calls upon the sober intelligence in

all human beings to accept the knowledge given by God without any reference

to ones caste or religion and thereby overcome all types of

misunderstandings about the nature of God. However, the call to bring back

critical but sincere intelligence into understanding the ways of religion

cannot enhance the profits of the creators of motivated religious rhetoric

who work in clever theistic ways to disguise the Supreme Truth.

 

--Vaishnava dasa

 

 

[theist]

The only real conversion worth trying for is to convert lovers of matter into lovers of God. It has nothing to do with someone's prefered form of religious expression.

 

Can we imagine souls, in the spiritual sky, with different prefered rasa's approaching each other with phamphlets trying to convert someone to their own prefered rasa as "the only way" to please Krsna?

 

Those that are more advanced in this process of conversion of the heart we relate to as teachers and learn from them. Those who are on the same level we make friends with and grow with. Those who are less experienced we try to teach. NOI

 

Maybe it would help to think less of "conversion" and more of inspiration and instruction. Like a chain of inspiration, faith building and revelation, and ourselves as just some tiny link somewhere on this chain. If we conduct ourselves as a proper link according to our capacity as will be well. Proper link means we offer support to the link below us as we are supported by the link above us.

 

It has nothing to do with trying to get someone to dress like us or take on similar modes of external religious expression.

[theist]

This statment has become very agreeable to me as I learn to see Lord Jesus Christ as bhakti personified.

[Gaurasundara]

It is not 'OK' for a kanistha-adhikari, as they are in need of further training. It is 'OK' for a madhyama-adhikari, as they have been further trained and are knowledgeable in sastra. It is not 'OK' for an uttama-adhikari as they are so elevated that they do not see any 'highs' and 'lows.'

[bhaktachris]

Hare KRsna,

 

I have a friend who is a scholar in Christianity, and knows a lot about Krsna con. He tells me that the statement that

"no one goes to the father accept through me" is something that came 300 years after Christ's passing. At some conference they had wayyy back. So he says that these are not Jesus the Christ's words. When i was reading the bible i told my friend and he said that i should read the gospels and avoid the rest because so much has been added/removed/changed that you dont get the Lord's word.

[Gaurasundara]

It's all true. About 300 years after Jesus, the council of Constantinople met to resolve these issues and they decided what will be official doctrine and what will not. Examples of these things is reincarnation. There is sufficient evidence to believe that reincarnation was taught by Jesus to his disciples, karma, and so on, but all of this was deleted from the Bible. Fortunately we have a few references that slipped through the net. That's why it's very hard to take the Gospels as absolute truth, in my view.

 

They are already starting to do the same to ISKCON.

[Guest guest]

 

There is sufficient evidence to believe that reincarnation was taught by Jesus to his disciples, karma, and so on, but all of this was deleted from the Bible.

 

 

Interesting. Can you provide examples of such evidence? I am intrigued.

 

[Gaurasundara]

Haribol.

 

I'll have to check out the Gospels for listed examples and for quotes, but I can remember two of them offhand.

 

There is that famous saying from the Sermon on the Mount: 'As you sow, so shall you reap.' This is an indication of karma.

 

About reincarnation: Jesus told his disciples that the recently-murdered John the Baptist was Elijah come again.

 

And the very last sentence of the Old Testament (book of Malachi, I believe) says something like: "Behold! I will send you again the prophet Elijah!"

 

I'll really have to confirm this from the Bible and if you're interested, I will do so. However these are just a few examples that spring from my mind right now.