why i took a stand against even some of my own statements.

[mahak]

Haribol. Last week, I commented about GALVA, and many may have thought I flip-flopped on the issue, as I have always been opposed to any ideas that one can continue materialistic activities and advance in Krsna Consciousness. This is not the case.

 

My stand was made clear. I was against removing the "V" from the organization's acronym. This is not support of the organization. It is support for the only thing that will clear the smoke for all of our existances, the acceptance of the science of Krsna Consciousness.

 

Ill tell a small story here. One of my very best friends in the movement, a known homosexual, but also one who gave up material activities in the service to Srila Prabhupada, the late Sudama Swami, was GBC for Hawaii. When the temple was located temporarily in Maunalua Valley, I was a garage resident, my decision because I was one of the looked down upon friend of the old guard from McKinley Street. Babhru may remember this tale because he, too, spent time in the garage.

 

One evening, a transexual person came and wanted to join the temple. This man had all properties of a female. He spoke to Sudama about his dilemna, and it became Sudama's delimna as well.

 

Of course, Sudama had no facility for this person, he was unable to facillitate residence because this person was neither male nor female, and could not be housed with either the brahmacaries not the brahmacarinis. But the fact remains that this person was sincerely wanting to be a devotee of Krsna. As (s)he left through the garage, I noticed the expression on the face, extreme separation and disappointment, which hopefully spurred this person on in the continuation of spiritual life. Naturally, the snickering was not worthy of discussion, the other neo-nazi denizens of the garage had lots of demeaning comments, but others, including Sudama, who wanted to talk about his decision, had no joy, no funny comments, just "damn this age of chaos, quarrel and confusion".

 

The point that I am trying to make is that past sinful activities are all destroyed by the acceptance of the Holy Names of God as ones life and number one priority. Even killers of brahmanas are immediately forgiven. Ones sin is no greater than anothers, and Lord Jesus Christ is the main teacher in this regard with His acceptance as disciple, srimati Mary of magdalia. Lord Nityananda's acceptance of Jagai and madhai are also very instructive here.

 

The commentary about the homosexual community is not free from unwarranted bias. I certainly accept and support any discussion as provided by Jahnava Nitai and others who attack from the angle that progress cannot be made if one is not free from material contamination. However, the GRADUAL path of minimizing materialistic activities while replacing with spiritual sadhana practice must be recognized as well, and this is where I am coming from.

 

I received a nice e-mail from a GALVA supporter, and I accepted the message against my previous comments. This is what led to my writing last week. This person was in a mixed relationship, meaning that the partner was not so interested in Krsna. So, as in other relationships of this nature, it is the duty for the person having attraction to begin the process of trying to attract others as well.

 

In a heterosexual relationship, the husband is not required to dump the wife and children just because they may think hes going nuts because of Krsna. In fact, this is a most degraded practice. The husbands duty is to try to spread the science in a subtle way, and it is hard work. A grha-medhi, materialsitic householder, is abominable and leads to rebirth in a lower species of life. One cannot declare that a homosexual will go any lower. This is why I will not criticize GALVA unnecessarily any more. There is no difference between a homo and any other materialist hung up on identification with the body (and mind) as the self.

 

We have seen the passionate cries against anti-semiticism, and I am favorable to those concerns as well. And, as I have stated in the GALVA case, one must move on and not be satisfied in the beginning stage. Like the christians, it is great that one is born again, but they must grow up and become mature in their christianity, not be content with letting Jesus die over and over for their bloody sins.

 

I am opposed to having a homosexual wing in the Vaisnava community, but no more so than my opposition to a Indian wing, a Jewish wing, or any other wing. These wings are all materialistic and must be transcended. That said, I will not rate ones false identity against another's false identity.

 

Some may not see it, but there is a strong opposition against a particular materialistic behavior. This is my protest, the offensive stage of bhakti (kanistha) is just that, offensive. But a greater offense is to deny Vaisnava status to the Kanistha, especially by those who are hypocritically stuck in the offensive stage as well.

 

Ill sign off for now, please do not use this thread to attack the homosexual lifestyle, because it is a non-issue. My protest is fully in regard to the unmerciful behavior of those who think that it is in their purview to grant or deny Krsna Consciousness to the one who is first attracted.

 

I mean, fair is fair. There is praise being shown to Cher's son, who is not agreeable to giving up his sex life at this time. How about a little fairness to our fellow human beings who have similar reluctance. We should encourage them, not hate them and put barbed wire around our imaginary temples.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[theist]

 

I am opposed to having a homosexual wing in the Vaisnava community, but no more so than my opposition to a Indian wing, a Jewish wing, or any other wing.

 

 

gal_a is attempting to be such a wing. Get it ?

[Kulapavana]

Mahaksa prabhu, I deeply appreciate your sincere and merciful post above. On an individual level we may feel great symphathy for sinners caught in this web of material life, but on a social level the benefits of individuals have to be weighed against benefits of the group. Is GALVA primarily interested in the benefit of our Society of devotees? I doubt that very much. Like I said in another post: there was no problem for gays in our Movement, and many of them held very high positions. Now they (GALVA) are creating a problem and are coming up with bogus philosophy to justify their position.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna, Prabhu,

 

Over the years I've read your statements on the Net. Sometimes I agree with you and sometimes not. Sometimes I even think that you get a little hot-headed at times and even contradict yourself occasionally (don't most of us anyway?). But you know what? I've always noticed that you're willing to re-examine your position and that underlying any differences in approach, etc., you always come out in the end with more compassion and a deeper understanding of the various problems we all face as conditioned souls trying to advance in spiritual life as best we can. So you are progressive and even willing to challenge your own conclusions at times. This is a unique quality which is admirable and displays a true underlying softness of heart, despite your apparently tough stand at times on certain issues. So I've come to admire you and respect you, and I think that you make a very personal and unique contribution to the Vaisnava community and subsequent discussions. So viva la difference

 

Prabhupada is such a spiritual genius (beyond comprehension to mere mortal minds and intellect) that he could attract and engage so many people with so many differnet natures and viewpoints. You obviously understand this and so I hope that you will continue to engage us and share your realizations with us all, as you're inspired from within. And hey, if you make a mistake once awhile, that makes you all the more endearing, appreciated and lovable at least in my mind

 

I've never met you personally, and hopefully someday I'll get that chance. But whenever I hear that beautiful story of how Prabhupada accepted your flower garland and how he appreciated your honesty about accepting 2nd initiation, etc., I know that you have received some special personal mercy from His Divine Grace. You glorify your godbrothers whom you see as sincere, despite perhaps having some personal shortcomings. You don't see the pockmarks on the moon. You see the brilliant light of devotion and love shining from their hearts. And you never condemn someone who is sincere but who struggles with some aspect of their conditioning, etc., especially if they're honest about it. So please rest assured that there are devotees (sometimes silent) out here who have gained from your perspectives and appreciate your participation and company.

 

This pretty much goes for all the posters here. I've seen a lot of give and take, and a lot of humility on almost all sides. In my insignificant opinion, the quality of humility is the most endearing of all in any human being, what to speak of devotees. The scholars here never denigrate the less well-versed. The older devotees relate to oldtimers and newcomers with equal respect, for the most part. And the younger ones inquire submissively and respectfully to the older ones. This is all exemplary Vaisnava behavior. So it's devotees like you and the others on this forum that give hope that there is enough common sense and respect left amongst the devotees that Prabhupada's movement is not finished, over, kaput, etc., as many would have us believe. Thank you for that because it's quite an achievement when we hear so much negativity floating around just about everywhere nowadays. So in conclusion, thank you very much Mahak Prabhu. May you enjoy lasting good health and happiness in your spiritual growth.

 

One question, if you don't mind. I don't mean to be nosy, but I checked the photo on your profile and I saw you holding two little babies (very cute). Are these your children? What a sweet personal picture to include on your profile. I hope that you're happy in this life, Prabhu. Thanks for being you. Prabhupada said that example is better than precept. I think that you caught the essence of KC quite well and yet you're not shy in being who you are at the same time. Anyway, I just wanted you to know that you have some friends out here (even though sometimes anonymous or in the backgorund). That goes for all sincere particpants here as well.

 

Thank you very much and Hare Krishna!

[Priitaa]

I never heard of removing the "V" from GALVA. Ya learn something new every day.

 

I have no problem with (real) homosexuals. I have more of a problem with GALVA. A post by JNdas (sorry prabhu) recently pointed out, with some good evidence, they are claiming to be a superior birth to the heterosexuals, amongst other claims. If they were honestly trying ONLY to bring other homosexuals back to chanting and purification, that's great. But when you read the fine print, and lately not so fine, they are advocating much more than Prabhupada would ever approve of. This is my conern. Not that they have a weakness. (Everyone has a weakness.) But that they are trying to make their weakness a virtue or part of Vaisnavism.

 

Prabhupada never turned anyone away. He initiated some homosexuals, so there is no need to change his teachings for anyone to be accepted. Simply it is important to keep his teachings pure and unaltered.

 

I dont feel we have to give extra bodily designations when we're trying to get off the bodily platform in the first place. Especially I liked the point that we should all just see ourselves as "devotees" or "Vaisnava's" with no other identity attached to it.

 

Prabhupada built a house all could live in. I realize the house Prabhupada built is not so liveable now, but I remember the days when gays, straights, blacks, whites, male, female, scholars, fools, and anyone else, could enter the temple and become purified and known as a "devotee." Now with all these separatist groups showing up, I can't help but turn to the movement and look to see what it has done to chase them away. However, thats also not an excuse for GALVA to tell us one thing but do another.

 

They are not the only ones who undergo prejudiced or other significant problems. I have been looked down on severely many times merely for being in a female body, blacks have been reminded they are "sudra," devotees who care about Jesus often get mistreated, there are anti-semetic posts, and everyone has their 'issues.' This did not go on when Prabhupada was here. There were tinges that would sometimes pop up, because we are all materially contaminated, but these were quickly washed away by his pure preaching. Now I am seeing black devotees also wearing African clothing, Jewish (background) devotees claiming to be more intelligent than Christian (background) devotees, and so many others 'groups' manifesting who are not regrouping to return things back to Prabhupada's original teachings, but to water them down, or mix them in with whatever *they* are into.

 

So I don't agree with GALVA (unless someone can prove they are not lying), whereas I have no problem with homosexuals. We are all in the fire to get purified. All of us devotees use to do this together and were one big family. It was so cool to see all these colors and mixes and shapes and sizes of devotees coming togehter in unity to arati back then in their dhoti/sari. Now there is all this "my group is better than your group" nonsense.

 

Getting off soapbox now. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guest guest]

You're cool, Mother Pritha. Please get on that soapbox of yours anytime. I've learnt much from you over the years. And congrats on all your sincere and caring websites. Prabhupada's devotees have so much to offer -- and such a variety of approaches and wisdom. Thanks again.

[Guest guest]

::::blushing::::: Thank you prabhu. Not sure I'm so deserving, but thanks. We're all in this together. We make it complicated. Prabhupada makes it simple. Just gotta chant Hare Krishna and get out. :-)

 

YS,

Prtha dd

[Haridham]

the material world is like a bathroom.

 

Do your bussiness and get out. No need to stay and look at te nice way the bathroom is decorated.

 

Chant Hare Krsna.

[Gaurasundara]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Guest guest]

You've touched a lot of people and devotees over the years. You stuck your neck out in defence of women, children, abuse victims, devotees, and of course, Srila Prabhupada and his mission (amongst others). You're a sincere and brave soul. It hasn't gone unnoticed, I can assure you.

 

All glories to your service and thank you.

[Priitaa]

Guest,

 

Thanks for the kind words. Well, I'm struggling like everyone else. I dont know if I'm brave - just stubborn. lol

 

I also didn't know anyone here knew all that other stuff about me. Hmmmmm :-) Anyway, right, I can't stand abuse. There is no room in Krishna consciousness for abuse, and I have less patience for thsoe who try to pass it off as one and the same.

 

[Guest guest]

Bathroom= material world /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guest guest]

I completely agree with the other guest here. Pritha dd is the best. I don't know her personally though, I read her posts here. They are awesome.

[Priitaa]

Actually, I know her personally, and she's not so great. She is fool number one, and has confided in me that she is struggling and full of faults.

[Guest guest]

That's one of the reasons she is great. Those who think they are great are not great.

 

Mother Pritha, there are those out here who have connunicated with many of you sincere souls over the years on a number of issues. Names come and go, but the sincerity and service are never forgotten.

 

There is a great family of Prabhupada lovers (spiritually speaking, of course) out here. It may appear to be a loose network, but we're actually very tightly packed up together at Prabhupada's divine lotus feet. All this apparent chaos is just a test for now. It won't be long, so please just hang in there as best you can. Prabhupada said: "In the end, you will see." This is cause for great rejoice. Prabupada will never forsake us.

[mahak]

Haribol, and thanks to guest for your kind remarks. And, to theist, who makes a valid point about GALVA and their intent to factionalize, which I have not tried to ignore.

 

My intent is contained in the Lord's Prayer of Lord Jesus Christ, who asks us to pray "Forgive us our tresspasses AS we forgive those who trespass against us". This is a bad prayer for the unforgiving because they ask the Father to reciprocate mercy to the extent that we have.

 

Lord Chaitanya goes quite a bit further in his siksastakam. He states that there are no hard and fast rules for chanting the Holy Names of the Lord, but He also states certain conditions that make it POSSIBLE for this chanting to take place. Among these items is to respect all others without expectation for respect in return. Also, we must become humble, meaning that we UNDERSTAND that there are no greater offenders to the Holy Names than ourselves. We must tolerate the sinful activities of those around us, not the sin but the performers of such. We are dying, not everyone else, not the homos, not the intoxicators, not the abortionists. They have their own bridges to cross, their own anarthas to transcend.

 

So, I clearly said that this topic is not about homosexuality, rather it is about agressive and presumptive arrogance shown by those who should spend their time better in atonement for their (our) own abhorrant behaviors. The guest pointed our something that I am quite proud of, the fact that my hard nosed approach to Krsna can be changed by further understanding. This comes not by my effort, it comes because I remember my Spiritual Master and the continual mercy he has shown to all of his disciples. If I cannot see my peers (all those who have taken to the chanting of Harinama) as the very finest of humanity and well on their way back home, back to Godhead, then I am so far away that I may as well quit once and for all. This inclused all who have been overcome by material nature, because this problem is discussed quite clearly by Srila Prabhupada. This is a temporary condition, a pitfall if you will, and is not really a big item.

 

Some may counter that it is an elephant offense to continue sinful activity after taking to the holy name, and I will not deny this in the slightest degree. However, when one is in the offensive stage of bhakti, these offences are happening, and to all of us, not just our favorite enemies. We dont drop out, though, because there is nothing left for us. Elephants are surely trampling our gardens, crushing our seeds, but we are still in the human form and the Holy Name is still available, and if we come to see ourselves as lower than the straw in the street, even these offences can be gradually overcome. And if they are not, and we die before atonement takes place, what have we lost, anyway.

 

Groups are going to organize, this is what humans do. Italians, latinos, homos, women, men destroyed by women, they all get together to cry in their beer, and they all get artificial strength from their associations. If chanting takes place, not only will these deviance subside, there are many who will become purified. Throughout our line and lines of other bonafide systems of God Lovers, there are stories of reformation by deviants and the lowest of mankind. These stories are inspiration to us all that God Himself is our greatest fan and wishes us all the highest success, and He will do whatever is necessary to help us all.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

ps the kids are tulasi my 20 yo daughter, cady, my daughter, and mateo, my grandson.