Devotee Definition

[Guest guest]

I am confused with the word Devotee being used in the context of Hare Krishna consciousness. What do you people mean by devotee and non devotee.

Does devotee mean one who belongs to Hare Krishna movement and all others are non-devotees?

Does devotee mean one who has given up the worldly materialistic life and lead a life as a saint? and all others who are in touch with regular routines of life are non-devotees?

Does devotee means who is initiated by a Guru of HK movement and follow the principles of KC alone and all others who are not initiated by a HC or gaudiya vaishnava mutt are non-devotees? For example the regulative priniciples followed by KC movement is something normally followed by almost all brahmins of south India, such as vegetarianism, praying to Lord by chanting His names. coming to personal habits also, many dont drink, dont smoke some dont even drink milk, or wear leather items and silk, (while Swami Prabhupaada was wearing silk and sitting on a cushion chair when a sanyaasi is not suppose to enjoy any physical comfort in actual sense). YOu may say that most of the aforementioned groups pray to demigods also. Yes, but one has to respect all demigods also while worshipping Narayana Krishna which many HK people dont follow. So whats the difference between devotee of KC and a devotee of Lord who does not belong to KC.

Why most of the HK people are sort of arrogant although they call themselves as humble? (A glance of good number of posts show the arrogance of some HK people very obviously in this forum itself)

I have lots of questions which keep me away from HK people after my interactions with them. I would like to receive answers from people of this forum run by HK group.

 

 

 

 

[Haridham]

Dear Guestji. VEry nice question and post.

I am in a rush right now to catch my bus so I cannot reply right now but I am sure someone here will give an appropriate answer to your questions.

 

I do have something to say which is that I feel that it vary's from devotee to devotee.

 

I find a lot of devotees are extremely respectful to me and everyone else.

 

So it vary's, we are in the material world and the modes sometimes get to much and the devotees act but still have the best intention at heart.

 

I have to go for now but I am sure someone can answer your question better then I can. As you have other questions as well I dont feel I am qualified enough to answer.

 

Hare Krsna

[gHari]

I have read that one becomes a sadhaka or Vaishnava when Krsna extends His causeless mercy and reveals His true identity. This is a very high position, yet most would accept as devotees many aspiring levels below this perfection. Sri Caitanya said that anyone who even once says the name of "Krsna" is to be considered best among men, a Vaisnava, a follower of Krsna, Visnu, God.

 

Generally, the sura is a devotee of God while the asura is opposed to God as explained in the 16th chapter of the Bhagavad-gita called the Divine and Demoniac Natures.

 

The Christian religion defines a devotee saying that "Those of the spirit talk of the spirit; those of the world speak of the world".

 

Essentially it all comes down to why we do what we do, and that determines whether one is devotee or non-devotee. The very elevated saints, they can see that everyone is actually following God; dogs, hogs, murderers and priests all follow Krsna in all respects, everyone is devotee. This is the true position; everyone is a servant of God, and has an eternal relationship with Him. We are all learning to love God perfectly - all at differing levels of our lessons.

 

gHari

[Guest guest]

Wonderful answer to our guest.

 

Truth spoken concisely is real eloquence.

--------------

 

Essentially it all comes down to why we do what we do, and that determines whether one is devotee or non-devotee. The very elevated saints, they can see that everyone is actually following God; dogs, hogs, murderers and priests all follow Krsna in all respects, everyone is devotee. This is the true position; everyone is a servant of God, and has an eternal relationship with Him. We are all learning to love God perfectly - all at differing levels of our lessons.

 

[Govindaram]

Why most of the HK people are sort of arrogant although they call themselves as humble?

 

I can't find the quote but srila prabhupada did say once something along the lines, that maya is strong so at first glance the devotee may seem arrogant but the devotee are trying to fix themsleves up for krishna.

[gHari]

our guest is Ricky Martin?

[Haridham]

that is funny, as you see I have followed you into this thread

[Govindaram]

 

this may have been the q'once but now,

krishna knows him.

 

livin da veda loka..i hated that song.

 

[Guest guest]

thanks for the general definition of devotee. I know all these but do not see any of these with HK people when they treat others thinking toomuch about themselves for nothing (all though not all of them). They consider that they are the only devotees of lord and a flower plane is waiting for them to take over while they are not able to control their anger or lust.

A humble person is someone who is humble all the times and not as per the situation. In that case then everyone is hypothetically humble to someone and arrogant to someone. It does not make anything special.

[gHari]

Guest,

 

Please do not cheat yourself by judging Sri Caitanya by everyone who is labelled an HK devotee. Some may behave as devotees sometimes, but at other times we are just aspiring or just plain demoniac as you have observed and as Krsna described in that 16th chapter:<blockquote>"Pride, arrogance, conceit, anger, harshness and ignorance-these qualities belong to those of demoniac nature, O son of PRthA."</blockquote>The example and model is the unalloyed pure devotee, like Srila Prabhupada for instance, who by the way, always requested ahimsa (non-violent) silk, not made from the butchering of silk worms. A pure devotee is one who has directly realized God, and the unalloyed pure devotee is one that never falls from their eternal relationship with Krsna.

 

However, at times when impure devotees or perhaps even alloyed pure devotees are trying to remember religion, but have conditioned psychological needs for mundane ego maintenance and aggrandizement, they will try to steal God's glory for their own personal use. We see this in all religions; sadly much too much. Indeed, my observation is that this is the prime cause of friction between the various religions of the world. Friction is not caused by religion, but rather by mundane egos hijacking religion.

 

When one considers God, yet is not very very humble, then they will become foolish. How can they be actually considering God if they are not humble? This is not possible, and the result is offense to God and therefore stupidity.

 

But please do not disregard the dharma of the age as revealed by Lord Caitanya because of the weak and flawed fallen characters of Kali Yuga. There are great devotees out there. Not all American baseball players are children, so to measure American baseball talent by watching kids' ballgames is not meaningful. Similarly, you will encounter all gradations of devotees from the tragically fallen to those in the major leagues whose every breath is perfection. Having seen the truth these pure souls can cut the knots that bind you and impart real knowledge, not mere words, but actual tangible touchable tastable truth.

 

gHari

[Priitaa]

In regards to what is the definition of a devotee, a story sticks out in my mind. I have posted it before, but I it really impressed me.

 

It was about one older women who knew Prabhupada. An american, westernized woman. She had her hair-do, wore red lipstick, regular 'karmi' clothes, etc., but she would chant Hare Krishna. Some devotee was criticizing, but Prabhupada called her a devotee.

 

To what degree is another question, but one who has compassion, such as Srila Prabhupada, sees the spirt soul within everyone and fans the spark, thus elevating them. Anyone who believes Krishna is God, that is not cheap thing, it is hard to come to that realization, so any such person is a devotee. They may need purification, that is another topic, but to accept Krishna as the Surpreme Personality of Godhead requires many births and/or the mercy of a pure deovtee guru.

 

That there are some devotees who dont follow, well there are some Hindu's who don't follow, some Chritians who don't follow, some Muslims who don't follow, some Jews who don't follow, some of every religion who do not follow. We can't use that as a blanket statement that therefore all Hindus or bogus, all Hare Krishna's are arrogant, all Christians are full of themselves, all Jews and etc. Some will follow, some won't, some are arrogant, some aren't. We should not evaluate a religion by its followers, but by its scripture and by its parampara system of saints/pure devotees.

 

Though I remember when I first joined the movement I would also find devotee arrogance to get on my nerves. (I still don't have much patience for those who will not be real - a form of conceit.) But over time what I saw was that they became purified due to life, wife, teenagers ha - wore them down and humbled them (coupled with help from shastra of course). For some, fanaticism is a bandaid we are initially dependant upon to maintain. The healthy ones let it go and advance or grow up. The ones who had obsessive addictive problems to start with, 25 -30 years down the road are still thinking they are better than everyone else and often need therapy.

 

[Priitaa]

 

thanks for the general definition of devotee. I know all these but do not see any of these with HK people when they treat others thinking toomuch about themselves for nothing (all though not all of them). They consider that they are the only devotees of lord and a flower plane is waiting for them to take over while they are not able to control their anger or lust.

A humble person is someone who is humble all the times and not as per the situation. In that case then everyone is hypothetically humble to someone and arrogant to someone. It does not make anything special.

 

 

So is your post really about "what is the definition of a devotee?" or "I can't stand the Hare Krishna deovtees and here's a list of their faults." ? Just asking. And I'd be happy if you would prove this as a misunderstanding.

[Guest guest]

I know lots about Chaithanya Mahaprabhu very well and thats why I am surprised that why the Hare Krishna movement that claims to be coming under that lineage does not have proper people to the extent they claim to be great.

In my opinion, hardly 5% of the HKs have understood Prabhupaadhha himself and the rest 95% are blind or dont have proper knowledge other than just reading his books and some try to imitate him. Its very sad. Prabhupaadha just similified the original principles of Vaishnavism which the brahmins of India has been following all along. He simplified it for the sake of better understanding and easiness to follow, primarily because he took vaishnavism to western counties where the exposure to Hinduism philosophies are not high and hence he did nnot want to confuse the people for which he simplified.

How many of you have understood this first of all.

Woshipping humans have no value and keeping a human as equal to God is not accepted as per Gita itself. How many of you have understood this, since I see people keeping swami Prabhupada at a pedestel equal to Krishna, which is like the stupid saibaba group worshipping him as krishna. In what way, the ideologies differ between those saibaba group and you. For all that matter, Swami prabhupaadha was real swamiji unlike this baba.

How many of you who claim to be devotee are willing to throw away a 100 dollar note without any attachment to it even though if you worked hard for it and earned since you all claim to be great and close to Krishna waiting for His flower aeroplane to come and pick u all.

So basically all of you are also just like anny other Indian or american or any country's God beleiver and follow the principles of Vaishnavism which lakhs and lakhs of people are already following generations together.

IN spite of that, why do you guys criticise others as though your group is one enlightened group for nothing great in anyone who claim to follow the principles.

There is gradation in every group of indiviuals and this gradation is there in society in all religions.

White Chanting God/Krishna's name certainly has benefits, dont you all know that Just by chanting Krishna's name alone is not sufficient but one has to be pure in mind and body and actions primarily.

Please dont call yourself as lineage of Chaithanya Mahaprabhu. Its an insult to Lord Chaithanya.

 

[Priitaa]

Just what I suspected. You use submissive inquiry to open the door so you can make an offense to the pure deovtee. You are unaware of the qualities of a pure devotee, thinking he is human being. I am almost sure I have posted to you in the past, and its a waste of time.

[gHari]

Now that was arrogant. Our guest has been staring in the mirror all this time, yet didn't realize he was preaching to himself. When you try to become greater than us, then you become foolish. Krsna, Sri Caitanya will not allow such nonsense. Foolishness is always the result.

 

I will however, take my own preaching to heart and not judge Sri Caitanya by your arrogance. It seems Krsna had me describing you all along. I hope you have ears to hear, for I no longer have heart to hear you anymore.

 

[Guest guest]

I dont know whom you are referring to as posted in the past neither I understand the answer out of irritation of ghari also. What was your sentence referring to Prabhupaadha took the teaching of Lord Chaithanya to villages. I dont know if you people misunderstood me for someone in the past who does not like Prabhupaadha. I am not that person nor I would insult a vaishnava like Swami Prabhupaadha since I myself is a Vaishnava and I know about Vaishnava Aparaatha.

 

[Guest guest]

When somebody new is questioning genuinely, a patient answer from a person practicing the principles would be better rather than saying that questioning person is arrogant. When you are not able to tolerate a small series of questions and simply dismiss, is this called enlightenment. this is what I face with the Hare Krishna people when they dont know how to answer, but they say that they are following principles for years. After chanting Lord's name for years a soul is suppose to have refined and crossed the borders of getting irritation and angry for questions. I am sorry I dont see that in any of you too when I came here with hopes.

[gHari]

Then you ridicule every follower of Srila Prabhupada. Was he so impotent? You didn't seem that foolish in the first post. You have hijacked Sri Caitanya for your own ego aggrandizement.

 

There was a grandfather bullfrog who was visited by his grandson. The grandson talked about a giant bull in the neighbouring field. The old bullfrog inhaled and became twice as big. He asked "Was the bull this big"? But the grandson said "No, no, grandfather. Much much bigger". Then the old bullfrog inhaled again making him four times normal size. "No, no grandfather; much bigger". This inhaling and expanding went on for a while, "No, no grandfather; much bigger", until finally the old bullfrog blew up into pieces everywhere.

 

Without humility we become foolish.

 

[gHari]

If you are as schooled as you claim, you will know that one cannot remain where pure devotees of Sri Krsna are offended. Just as Krsna and Gauranga are angry, so shall be Their devotees.

 

We are not angry with your feigned naive questions. We are angry at Vaishnava aparadha. You will either stop, or you will be avoided. You will know that we have only three choices in this matter. If you do stop immediately, then walking away is the only effective choice over the internet.

[Guest guest]

I am very sorry if you have misunderstood that I am ridiculing the followers of prabupaada. I am not. What i wanted to say is just because someone is a follower of prabupaadha or attached to the mutt does it mean that He alone is qualified to be called a devotee for which you answered giving general definition of devotee in vaishnavic dictionary sense.

My question is why they behave harsh thinking that what they talk alone is right and whatever others talk are nonsense and whatever they preach alone is right while people in India are already following the prinicples for ages together irrespective of whether they belong to any mutt or not but by also being in the family etc. why is this kind of thoughts prevail.

BY the way, in my humble opinion, i too felt that you gave a nice answer, but you just seem to be any other arrogant person who is really not enlightened howmuch ever the number of years you are practising the regulative principles or chanting Krishnaa's name.

I dont wish to continue any discussion anymore and bear the sin.

[Guest guest]

If I have offended any vaishnava bby posting my questions, I am sorry. But you too have offended this vaishnava since I am also a follower of Krishna ever since I was born. now you carry the sin or aparaatha

[gHari]

Just because you write "I am not" ridiculing the followers of Srila Prabhupada does not mean that you are not. We have another character here like that. He says "I don't mean to offend". then he offends. As if we are totally stupid or something, he says "But I said I was not intending to offend", "But I said I love your master", "But I said he was a saint". We only look stupid; we aren't quite that stupid.

 

[Guest guest]

ONe thing that is clear to me is the common mentality of Hare Krishna group.

We should not be questiioned

IF someone questions us and we cannot answer logically then he or she is offending us

So he becomes a vaishnava aparaatha primarily because we cannot answer.

We will self portray to be humble and ridicule others who questions us and yet we are pure.

 

Fine..Krishna is not going to punish me and I dont care even if you think that I have offended all the vaishnavas of your group. I have already faced this and Krishna always appears in my dreams still, which is a sign for me that He is not angry with me. The Great Aandal does not belong to Hare Krishna, but Lord came and married Her. I come under such group of vaishnavaas. So honestly it does not matter to me if you say that I am coloring all of you as stupid and offended, as Krishna knows that I tried to geneuinely question.

Bye bye and no more postings even if you reply to this post

[gHari]

You must be blind not to see your aparadha. I don't know who upset you before, but be assured that you will find many devotees within ISKCON that you will be proud to know as devotees, just as Sri Caitanya is proud to call them His.

[Guest guest]

We have another character here like that. He says "I don't mean to offend". then he offends. As if we are totally stupid or something, he says "But I said I was not intending to offend", "But I said love your master", "But I said he was a saint". We only look stupid; we aren't quite that stupid.