Evolution of Gaudiya thought

[Guest guest]

By the time of Bhaktivinode gaudiya thought

and practice had degenerated from the time of the 6 goswamis, here jagat prabhu has nicely given us

evidence of this by showing that what would later become taught as being only for the highest

and most educated of bhaktas[siddha pranali]

was being given out to people more or less

without any prior practice of sadhana bhakti.

 

quote:

--

The fact is that Bhaktivinoda Thakur accepted this system early in his spiritual life (i.e. he got it right away with his initiation, which coincided with his giving up meat eating. So he was still eating meat when he received siddha-pranali from his guru. He was also a working householder with many responsibilities and children).

--

 

this is from Narasingha Swami

 

 

For a long time the sahajiyas had continuously misrepresented the principles of pure devotional service under the false practices of raganuga-bhakti and that for which the Srimad-Bhagavatam stood became tarnished and eventually covered. These sahajiya communities are described by Bhaktivinoda Thakura as the Aula, Baula, Kartabhaja, Neda, Daravesa, Sani-sahajiya, Sakhibheki, Smarta, Jata-gosani, Ativadi, Cudadhari and Gauranga-nagari. They had became so degraded that the very word 'Vaisnava' was spoiled in Bengal. Without going into detail it will suffice at this point to say that under the patronage of the above mentioned sahajiya communities 'Vaisnavaism' had become known as a religion or occupation of women hunters, drunkards and beggars. Seeing this situation was intolerable for the pure hearted devotees of the Supreme Lord.

 

 

 

 

At that point in gaudiya vaisnavaism that apparently was the norm, a few years later

what was once the norm would be rejected

by Bhaktivinodes son, here we can read how Bhaktisiddhanta (who as jagat prabhu pointed out made the comment that

there were no real vaisnavas in Vrndavana)

changed the enire outlook of gaudiya thought

to one of strictly rejecting such practices

as raganuga for anyone except those who

had gone through the entire process of sadhana

bhakti and had in fact attained the level

of expertise in bhakti jnana.

 

With his first step, he cut to pieces the whole plane of exploitation, and with his second, he crushed the speculation of scholars of salvation and liberation. With his third, he softened vaidhi-bhakti with a touch of divine love (raga-marga). Taking us beyond Vaikuntha, he has introduced us to the highest worship of Sri Radha and Govinda. With the softness of Vrndavana within, and the hardness of a devastator without, he created havoc in the world-fighting with one and all. Single-handedly fighting against the whole world, and cutting everything to pieces--that was his external attitude. And his second attitude was to stop the boasting research of the scholars and doctors of different schools of thought; the third, to minimize and slacken the grandeur of the worship of Narayana, and establish the service of Radha-Govinda as the highest attainment. He caused the domain of love to descend into this plane, with the service of Radha-Govinda, establishing the flow of divine love from the heart as all in all. That was his history-the real existence of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. May his divine teachings, Bhaktisiddhanta vani, dance eternally within the core of our hearts." ( Srila B.R. Sridhara Deva Goswami Maharaja)

 

 

 

 

This was indeed a reversal of previous attitudes,

the question is why did he do this ?

 

We can look at the Rajneesh cult, there the initiates have no standard and are immediately

initiated as "sanyassins".

 

does this mean that they are in fact members of the renounced order ?

 

of course not, the exact opposite to be truthfull.

 

So when Bhaktivinode first became involved with Gaudiya thought he was a meat eater,a non vaisnava,yet the standard at the time was to give

initiation to unqualified people into the

practice of sadhana of a supposedly intimate

type,siddha pranali.

 

in fact at the time sahajiyaism had become

rampant .

 

So why was this practice of giving neophytes

such an exalted status done ?

 

clearly if the practice of siddha pranali

was given to new initiates it could not

be an advanced or intimate type of sadhana,

basically it was the new bhakta program of it's day.

 

they had to compete with the popularity of the sahajiya schools who were giving supposedly

advanced intimate siddhanta and association

along with sense enjoyment, to compete with

that it appears that they made a choice of offering a supposedly advanced intimate connection as well.

 

Into that world entered Bhaktivinode,and turned it upside down.

 

He took what was by then being seen as a cheap

emotional type of Bhakti,represented to the public

mostly by the sahajiyas,and turned it into a solidly philosophical school of advanced

siddhanta,one need only read his works

to see how he approached teaching with the highest

philosophical style.

 

then Bhaktisiddhanta started his mission, to complete the work started by his father,

he rejected the previous style of giving supposedly initimate siddhanta to one and all regardless of their appreciation and knowledge.

 

the fact was that the level of siddhanta being taught to beginners was just like Rajneesh

giving sannyassa to his followers,the intiation and teaching was all external,devoid of any

real merit,form over substance,the sahajiya

style of bhakti.

 

They would take what was metaphor and symbolism present in the sadhana and shastra

and take it all literally, missing not only the

true import of the teaching but also becoming nothing more then devotees of themselves,

self worship through the misuse of bona fide sadhana, taking what was only appreciable by liberated souls,and imitating the outward

process,while inwardly vacant of any realization of the true import and nature of the process.

 

The World of Gaudiya Vaishnavism was utterly and

and totaly rebuilt by Bhaktisiddhanta continuing

the work started by his father.

 

He railed against the sahajiyas, rejected the previous style of giving unqualified students

intiation and study of things they couldn't possibly understand, by this aggresive style

of preaching and re shaping He made the world of Gaudiya Vaishnavism ready to be exported to the world at large.

 

No longer would gaudiya vaisnavas be engaged in

semi sahajiaistic practices, Sadhana ,learning,

becoming qualified was stressed above all else,

the world of Gaudiya Vaisnavism was now ready for a champion to take the newly purified

school to the world .

 

Enter A.C. Bhaktivedanta,Following the instructions and precepts of his guru,Bhaktisiddhanta,he vigorously rejected

the old style of semi sahajia bhakti still

somewhat being taught, he continued the path

laid down by the two previous Acharyas,

Can you imagine Bhaktivedanta teaching siddha pranali ?

 

Anyone familiar with his teachings would find this impossible to accept, He has shown the world

what is and what isn't the will of Mahaprabhu,

by his empowerment and success the work of Bhaktivinode and Bhaktisiddhanta has been

shown to be the true successor to the 6 goswamis,

the truely empowerd representatives of the will

and school of Mahaprabhu.

 

Nowadays there are those who want to go back in time,

reinstate the rejected philosophy of neophyte

study and application of unsuitable and unknowable

topics,all in the name of advancement.

 

this is not advancement,it is the opposite,

the ideology of the empowered is easily seen,

the ideology of those left to riding on their

coatails to try and gain a following from the

innocent and unaware is something to be seen for what it truely is,a desire for followers,fame and fortune,

in the guise of giving out the "higher path",

People like Rajneesh made a lot of money and gained

a huge following from this type of cheating,

buyer beware.

[Guest guest]

Haribol Shiva,

 

can you tell me where you found this excellent article. Very good.

 

Muralidhar

[Guest guest]

the parts i cited from other authors or the rest ?

 

the rest is from my fertile imagination or

whatnot.

[Guest guest]

Shiva,

 

I thought the whole article was from Narasingha Maharaj or one of his disciples.

 

--Murali

[Guest guest]

Prayer in Separation of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

(Translator's Note:

This prayer to Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura (1838-1914), the pioneer of pure devotion in the recent age, was composed within the lifetime of the author's Guru, Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura Goswami Prabhupada. Upon reading the original Sanskrit verse, Srila Prabhupada commented, "Now I am confident that we have one man who is qualified to uphold the standard of our Sampradaya (Divine Succession).")

 

1

ha ha bhaktivinoda-thakura! guroh! dvavimsatis te sama dirghad-duhkha-bharad-asesa-virahad-duhsthikrta bhuriyam

jivanam bahu-janma-punya-nivahakrsto mahi-mandale

avirbhava-krpam cakara ca bhavan sri-gaura-saktih svayam

2

dino 'ham cira-duskrtir na hi bhavat-padabja-dhuli-kana-

snanananda-nidhim prapanna-subhadam labdhum samartho 'bhavam

kintv audarya-gunat-tavati-yasasah karunya-saktih svayam

sri-sri-gaura-mahaprabhoh prakatita visvam samanvagrahit

3

he deva! stavane tavakhila-gunanam te virincadayo

deva vyartha-mano-rathah kim u vayam martyadhamah kurmahe

etan no vibudhaih kadapy atisayalankara ity ucyatam

sastresv eva "na paraye 'ham" iti yad gatam mukundena tat

4

dharmas-carma-gato 'jnataiva satata yogas ca bhogatmako

jnane sunya-gatir japena tapasa khyatir jighamsaiva ca

dane dambhikata 'nuraga-bhajane dustapacaro yada

buddhim buddhi-matam vibheda hi tada dhatra bhavan presitah

5

visve 'smin kiranair yatha hima-karah sanjivayann osadhir

naksatrani ca ranjayan nija-sudham vistarayan rajate

sac-chastrani ca tosayan budha-ganam sammodayams te tatha

nunam bhumi-tale subhodaya iti hlado bahuh satvatam

6

lokanam hita-kamyaya bhagavato bhakti-pracaras tvaya

granthanam racanaih satam abhimatair nana-vidhair darsitah

acaryaih krta-purvam eva kila tad ramanujadyair budhaih

premambho-nidhi-vigrahasya bhavato mahatmya-sima na tat

7

yad dhamnah khalu dhama caiva nigame brahmeti samjnayate

yasyamsasya kalaiva duhkha-nikarair yogesvarair mrgyate

vaikunthe para-mukta-bhrnga-carano narayano yah svayam

tasyamsi bhagavan svayam rasa-vapuh krsno bhavan tat pradah

8

sarvacintyamaye paratpara-pure goloka-vrndavane

cil-lila-rasa-rangini parivrta sa radhika sri-hareh

vatsalyadi-rasais ca sevita-tanor-madhurya-seva-sukham

nityam yatra muda tanoti hi bhavan tad dhama-seva-pradah

9

sri-gauranumatam svarupa-viditam rupagrajenadrtam

rupadyaih parivesitam raghu-ganair asvaditam sevitam

jivadyair abhiraksitam suka-siva-brahmadi-sammanitam

sri-radha-.-sevanamrtam aho tad datum iso bhavan

10

kvaham manda-matis tv ativa-patitah kva tvam jagat-pavanah

bho svamin krpayaparadha-nicayo nunam tvaya ksamyatam

yace 'ham karuna-nidhe! varam imam padabja-mule bhavat-

sarvasvavadhi-radhika-dayita-dasanam gane ganyatam

 

 

1

Alas, alas! O Bhaktivinoda Thakura, O Supreme Guru, for twenty-two years this world has been plunged into misfortune, long grief-stricken in your intolerable separation. You are the divine potency of Sri Gaura, and you graciously made your advent in this earthly plane, being attracted by the living beings' virtuous deeds performed throughout many lifetimes.

 

2

Since I am lowly and very wretched, it was not my luck to reach the ocean that bestows the fortune of surrender - the ocean of the ecstasy of bathing in a particle of the dust of your holy lotus feet. Yet due to your magnanimous nature, you gave your grace to the whole universe, personally revealing your supereminence as the personification of the mercy potency of Sri Gauranga. (That is, by coming into this world, I received his grace.)

 

3

O Lord, even all the demigods headed by Lord Brahma feel frustrated by their inability to (fittingly) sing the glories of all your divine qualities. What, then, can be said of the attempt of a fallen soul, a mere human like me? Surely, the learned will never waste their eloquent words eulogizing this statement, since even the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Sri Krsna Himself, has sung in the Scriptures His celebrated confession Ôna paraye 'hamÕ - ÔI am unable (to reciprocate your devotion).Õ

 

4

At a time when religion was evaluated in terms of bodily relationship, saintliness was determined by ignorance, and yoga practice was motivated by sensual pleasure; when scholarship was cultivated just for voidism, japa was conducted for the sake of fame, and penance was performed out of vindictiveness; when charity was given out of pride, and on the pretext of spontaneous devotion the most gross, sinful acts were perpetrated - and in all such anomalous situations even the intelligentsia were at loggerheads with one another . . . at that very time, you were sent by the Almighty Creator.

 

5

As the universally cooling moon is beautified by diffusing its nectarean rays, nourishing the plants and inciting the twinkling of the stars, your Holy Advent in this world is similarly ascertained as satisfying the pure devotional Scriptures (through profound study) and blessing the learned with full-blown happiness (by the perfect axiomatic conclusions descending in Divine Succession). With your appearance, the ecstasy of the devotees knows no bounds.

 

6

By writing many books and by multifarious methods recognized by the pure devotees, you have demonstrated the preaching of pure devotional service unto the Supreme Lord, for the benefit of the whole world. We have heard of similar achievements in previous times by stalwart scholars such as Sri Ramanuja and many other Acaryas; but the glory of you - the very embodiment of the nectar of divine love - does not end (cannot be confined) here.

 

7

Merely the effulgence of His divine abode has been designated by the title 'Brahman' in the Vedas, and only the expansion of an expansion of His expansion is sought after with great tribulation by the foremost yogis. The most exalted of the liberated souls shine resplendent as the bumblebees at His lotus feet. The Primeval Origin of even the Original Sri Narayana who is the Lord of the spiritual sky above Brahman: He is the Original Supreme Lord, the personification of all nectarine mellows - Sri Krsna - and He is the one that you give.

 

8

Situated in the topmost region of the absolutely inconceivable spiritual sky is the holy abode of Sri Vrndavana Dhama, in the spiritual planet known as Goloka. There, surrounded by Sakhis, Srimati Radhika revels in the mellows of divine pastimes. With great ecstasy, She expands the joy of loving sweetness in the service of Sri Krsnacandra, who is otherwise served in four relationships up to parenthood. You, O Thakura Bhaktivinoda, can give us the service of that holy Dhama.

 

9

The internal purport is known to Sri Svarupa Damodara by the sanction of Sri Gauracandra, of that which is adored by Sri Sanatana Goswami and distributed by the preceptors realized in transcendental mellows, headed by Sri Rupa Goswami; that which is tasted and enhanced by Sri Raghunatha Dasa Goswami and followers and carefully protected by the votaries headed by Sri Jiva Prabhu; and that which (from a respectful distance) is venerated by great personalities such as Sri Suka, Lord Siva, the chief of the demigods, and Lord Brahma, the grandfather of all beings - O wonder of wonders! the nectarine rapture of servitude unto Sri Radhika - that, too, you can give us.

 

10

Where am I, so lowly and fallen, and where are you, the great soul who delivers the universe! O Lord, by your grace, you are sure to forgive my offenses. O ocean of mercy, in the dust of your lotus feet I pray for just this benediction: kindly make my life successful by recommending me for admission into the group of Sri Varsabhanavi Dayita Dasa, who is the dearmost one in your heart.

 

 

[Guest guest]

The prayer above was written by Srila Sridhar Maharaj in 1937

 

-- Muralidhar

[Guest guest]

Yes, they say Prabhupada only taught ABC

and that they are teaching XYZ !!!

 

___________

 

try and gain a following from the

innocent and unaware is something to be seen for what it truely is,a desire for followers,fame and fortune,

in the guise of giving out the "higher path",

 

 

__

 

They tell me ,

"I don't have bhakti-adhikara

for not going to take siksa from

their present acarya,rasika guru."

 

They tell me I'm an offender and an envious snake

for not going to surrender to their guru

who is teaching the last limit of madhurya-rasa with Krishna and the gopis.

[Guest guest]

They want to Know their eternal spiritual forms PRoNTO.

 

Presto,why wait and do karma

jnana

or any mixed bhakti?

[MuralidharDas]

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj:

Nirjjana-bhajan or smarana, exclusive solitary Devotion unconscious of the environment, is not at all possible for the beginners. Guru Maharaj clearly said that when we are in a lower position, smarana is injurious. Rather, we should take to kirttana. Kirttana prabhave, smarane haibe, se kale bhajana nirjjana sambhava. The Sahajiya school (imitationists) are more fond of smarana than kirttana. They are "followers of smarana." They lead a secluded life, and mentally go on identifying themselves with a particular sakhi of their own age, her duty, her place of attendance in a particular place of Vrndavana, in a particular lila, under the guidance of a particular sakhi, and so on. They are required to go on meditating on all these things by their so-called guru. That is the process amongst the Sahajiya school, but we do not admit that. We consider it false and imaginary. They are not fit to enter that plane of Radha-Govinda lila. They do not have real sambandha-jnana, knowledge of what is what. They only go on with the habitual repetition of a particular mental speculation, but anartha-nivrtti (purging of all evils) or any other process based on it cannot be effected. Their imaginary achievement is sheer concoction. They are not aware of the facts - the ontological gradation from Viraja to Brahmaloka, Vaikuntha and Goloka. They are pukura-curiwale "pond thieves". To think that one can steal a pond is self-deception. We think that kind of "smarana" to be something like self-deception.

 

One must gradually reach the plane of truth - suddha-sattva. There are so many planes, so many planets to cross over - Bhur, Bhuvah, Svah, Mahar, Janar, Tapar, Satyaloka, Viraja, Brahmaloka.

 

Mahaprabhu says that the creeper of Bhakti grows and rises up to Goloka, and she has to cross all these planes.

 

upaniya bade lata 'brahmanda' bhedi' yaya

'viraja', 'brahmaloka', bhedi 'paravyoma' paya

tabe yaya tad upari 'goloka-vrndavana'

'krsna-carana' - kalpavrkse kare arohana

(Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita, Madhya 19.153.4)

"The creeper of Devotion is born, and grows to pierce the wall of the universe. It crosses the Viraja river of passivity (the "Causal Ocean") and the Brahman plane, and reaches to the Vaikuntha plane. Then it grows further up to Goloka Vrndavana, finally reaching to embrace the wish-yeilding tree of Krishna's Lotus Feet."

But the psuedo-devotees do not care to know what is Paravyoma, what is Brahmaloka, what is Viraja, what is the Brahmanda. Without caring to know about these things, they approach any guru, receive some mantram, and go on meditating. But in such a stage, if one goes on meditating on Radha-Govinda lila, instead of entering Radha-Govinda lila, he will rather entangle himself with the ladies and gents of this world. He will become entangled in the domain of lust and he will have to go to hell instead of going up to Goloka.

 

Carmma-mamsamaya - kama, prema - cidananda-dhama. The carnal appetite is lust, whereas Love is the abode of Divine Ecstasy. So imitation is not success. Rather, it degrades. Imitation degrades. Imagination is only a mental exercise.

 

Devotee: What if that mental exercise is done with faith?

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: Mind is separate from the soul. Sraddha, faith, is connected with the soul, atma, and mind is matter. Mind is a part the of material potency - Maya. This is clarified in Gita:

 

bhumir apo 'nalo vayur kham mano buddhir eva ca

ahankara itiyam me bhinna prakrtir astadha

(Bg. 7.4)

Mind is a product of the material potency, and the jiva is a product of parasakti, the principal potency. The Svarupa-sakti, the Lord's Personal Potency, is a further higher potency, higher than the jiva. The nature of the mind is mental speculation (manodharmma). That speculative thought has nothing to do with truth. The experiences of the mind are all drawn from the material world, the world of misconception. The mind is full of misconception (avan-manaso gocarah). Mind cannot reach the stage of feeling or perceiving truth proper. It is only related to mundane things and selfish exploitation.

 

Devotee: But isn't pure mind a product of sraddha?

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: Mind cannot be pure. Just as a fossil cannot produce life, so similarly, mind cannot produce sraddha. Sraddha is original and fundamental. When the Supreme Lord appears in the heart, mind vanishes. Darkness cannot produce light. Light comes, darkness vanishes. Truth appears when real pure consciousness appears, and mental speculation vanishes.

[Govindaram]

Hare Krishna

 

Are you saying that Raganuga Bhakti practiced in Vraj is sahajiya or something?

 

some or all of it?

 

I would like to hear your views..

 

jeez i am a confuced person to top it all off its ekadasi and im well hungry!

[Guest guest]

Lust is carnal

whereas Love is the abode of Divine Ecstasy.

 

Beautiful words spoken by a great Sadhu Vaisnava

_

 

Carmma-mamsamaya - kama, prema - cidananda-dhama. The carnal appetite is lust, whereas Love is the abode of Divine Ecstasy. So imitation is not success. Rather, it degrades. Imitation degrades. Imagination is only a mental exercise.

 

__

[Guest guest]

no that was Bhaktisiddhantas comment, he was making a

point by being hyperbolic.

 

his point was that the real service of the vaisnava is not

to sit in the dhama and try to taste the lila and rasa of

Radha Krsna by meditating and whatnot.

 

the real vaisnava is not interested in liberation,

the real vaisnava is interested in pleasing

Radha Krsna,not trying to exploit them for gain,even

the gain of liberation.

 

that was the point,He believed in the service attitude

as being higher then the bhajanandi attiutde,the

bhajanandi tries to attain Vraja, the higher service

is to serve Vraja,serve the desire of Godhead,

not simply sitting and trying to taste the mellows

artificially,but engaging in direct service

of the desire of Mahaprabhu.

[Guest guest]

I believe Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami considered the REAL babajis to be higher than sannyasis, and that real babajis such as Srila Gaurkishore Das Babaji are doing the highest service when they are worshipping the Lord in their every moment.

 

But for the practitioners, for the devotees practicing service who have not yet attained the highest state of realization, it is better to practice loud kirtana (sankirtan) than to engage in solitary meditation.

 

There is a letter written to Srila Sridhar Maharaj by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami, in which Srila Saraswati Thakur tells Srila Sridhar Maharaj that he should try and encourage Sripad Krishnadas Babaji Maharaj to give up solitary bhajan and engage in active preaching instead. Because Sripad Krishnadas Babaji Maharaj maintained his preference to engage in solitary bhajan, Srila Sridhar Maharaj ousted him from Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math two or three times. He was told, when you decide to engage in active preaching, you can come back.

 

-- Muralidhar

[Gaurasundara]

 

By the time of Bhaktivinode gaudiya thought and practice had degenerated from the time of the 6 goswamis,

 

 

Do you actually have evidence of this? If so, can you please post that evidence right here on this forum? Did you know that deviations have been going on since the time of Mahaprabhu? Does that mean no one had a clue as to what Mahaprabhu taught?

 

 

here jagat prabhu has nicely given us evidence of this by showing that what would later become taught as being only for the highest and most educated of bhaktas[siddha pranali] was being given out to people more or less

without any prior practice of sadhana bhakti.

 

 

What makes you think that siddha-pranali is only for the highest and educated bhakta? Do you even know what siddha-pranali is?

 

If you did, then you wouldn't be making such foolish statements like "given out to people more or less without any prior practice of sadhana bhakti."

 

Unfortunately for you, Bhaktivinoda himself nicely explained siddha-pranali in his books. You haven't read them, that is obvious.

 

 

--

The fact is that Bhaktivinoda Thakur accepted this system early in his spiritual life (i.e. he got it right away with his initiation, which coincided with his giving up meat eating. So he was still eating meat when he received siddha-pranali from his guru. He was also a working householder with many responsibilities and children).

--

 

 

With all due respects to Jagat, I don't think he uses Bhaktivinoda as an example of the times. There may very well have been a large amount of sadhakas who did not eat meat or do anything else. Just because Bhaktivinoda ate meat, you are making him an example of the "degenerated thought and practice" of what you think was the Gaudiya situation at that time? Do you realise that you are exposing an offensive mentality towards Bhaktivinoda?

 

 

this is from Narasingha Swami: For a long time the sahajiyas had continuously misrepresented the principles of pure devotional service under the false practices of raganuga-bhakti and that for which the Srimad-Bhagavatam stood became tarnished and eventually covered.

 

 

The problem here is that neither you nor Narasingha Swami know what a sahajiya actually is.

 

 

At that point in gaudiya vaisnavaism that apparently was the norm, a few years later what was once the norm would be rejected by Bhaktivinodes son,

 

 

I hear from some disciples of Narayana Maharaja that Bhkati Prajnana Kesava Maharaja received knowledge of his svarupa from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta. Knowledge of svarupa is commonly referred to as "ekadasa-bhava" in the Gaudiya tradition, and this ekadasa-bhava is itself a part of siddha-pranali. So would you really say that Bhaktisiddhanta "rejected" the norm?

 

By the way, may I ask how it first came to be known that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was actually Nayana-manjari? I've asked several people and none were able to give me an answer. Who first revealed this and how did they come to know?

 

 

here we can read how Bhaktisiddhanta changed the enire outlook of gaudiya thought to one of strictly rejecting such practices as raganuga for anyone except those who had gone through the entire process of sadhana bhakti and had in fact attained the level of expertise in bhakti jnana.

 

 

He certainly changed the outlook of Gaudiya thought... for his disciples. By the way, do you even know what sadhana-bhakti is?

 

Sadhana-bhakti has two divisions: vaidhi-bhakti-sadhana and raganuga-bhakti-sadhana. So how can raganuga be practised by those who have "through the entire process of sadhana bhakti" when raganuga IS sadhana-bhakti?

You presented a couple of verses from "Prakrita sata-dusani" on "the difference" thread and I carefully explained how it is correct in terms of Rupa Gosvami's definition only 2 days ago. You did not understand it then, and it is obvious that you still do not understand it.

 

 

So when Bhaktivinode first became involved with Gaudiya thought he was a meat eater,a non vaisnava, yet the standard at the time was to give initiation to unqualified people into the practice of sadhana of a supposedly intimate

type,siddha pranali.

 

 

Bhaktivinoda certainly ate meat. However, he chanted harinama, wrote books, and gave lectures about siddhanta on the vyasasana to all the Vaishnavas who came to hear. He wrote one of his most famous books (Sri Krsna-samhita) while he was eating meat. He also had no less than two siksa-gurus. I still don't see how you can take his example as the standard of sadhakas at the time. That is an extremely wild generalisation, not to mention offensive to the thousands of "clean" sadhakas who received genuine siddha-pranali.

 

By the way, why don't you ask why Bhaktivinoda ate meat while he was doing so much of sadhana and writing before he took diksa?

 

 

in fact at the time sahajiyaism had become rampant .

 

 

Since you cannot give evidence of this wild generalisation, I shall not ask you to provide any. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

 

clearly if the practice of siddha pranali was given to new initiates it could not be an advanced or intimate type of sadhana, basically it was the new bhakta program of it's day.

 

 

Again I'll ask you, do you even know what siddha-pranali is? Evidently you do not, that is why you continue to make a fool of yourself by saying foolish things.

 

For the record, siddha-pranali is not given to neophytes or "beginner" devotees, and in some cases it is not even given at the time of diksa (second initiation). This standard is not fixed, it differs from lineage to lineage, but the general idea is that it is in fact an advanced practice that is given either at the time of diksa or after when the guru feels that the prospective disciple is ready for it.

 

 

they had to compete with the popularity of the sahajiya schools who were giving supposedly advanced intimate siddhanta and association along with sense enjoyment, to compete with that it appears that they made a choice of offering a supposedly advanced intimate connection as well.

 

 

First of all, the "sahajiya" schools do not have a bona-fide initiation or siddha-pranali to give, so who cares what they gave? In my view, that is a perfect example of the cheaters and the cheated.

 

 

Into that world entered Bhaktivinode,and turned it upside down.

 

 

I don't think so. He practised siddha-pranali and raganuga-bhakti-sadhana exactly as it was given to him by his guru, which in turn was exactly what has been preached since the time of Mahaprabhu. Where he did attempt to turn things "upside down," as it were, is via his writings about the eligibility for raganuga and his views on varnasrama-dharma. This is what I think is right, after reading some of the relevant works.

 

 

one need only read his works to see how he approached teaching with the highest philosophical style.

 

 

Have you read his works? Which ones?

 

 

The World of Gaudiya Vaishnavism was utterly and and totaly rebuilt by Bhaktisiddhanta continuing the work started by his father.

 

 

Utterly? Totally? Short of committing mass genocide of all non-Sarasvatas, I cannot see how your words are true.

 

 

Nowadays there are those who want to go back in time, reinstate the rejected philosophy of neophyte study and application of unsuitable and unknowable topics,all in the name of advancement.

 

 

Following Rupa Gosvami's instructions as per the teachings of Mahaprabhu is what you call "going back in time" ?

 

I call it "returning to the roots."

[Gaurasundara]

 

They want to Know their eternal spiritual forms PRoNTO.

 

Presto,why wait and do karma

jnana

or any mixed bhakti?

 

 

I don't think you will find any genuine Gaudiya Vaishnava gurus giving out knowledge of their disciples' spiritual forms "pronto." Rather, the information about one's spiritual form (ekadasa-bhava) is given either at the time of diksa or after that, as long as the guru thinks the disciple is ready.

[Gaurasundara]

 

Hare Krishna

 

Are you saying that Raganuga Bhakti practiced in Vraj is sahajiya or something?

 

some or all of it?

 

I would like to hear your views..

 

 

First of all, it's important to know what a sahajiya actually is. A sahajiya is someone who engages in sexual intercourse with his wife, girlfriend, or other people's wives or girlfriends, in order to emulate the conjugal pastimes of Radha and Krishna in his own body as well as the body of his partner. Anyone who does this is a sahajiya. Anyone who does not do this, is not a sahajiya.

 

Unfortunately, "sahajiya" is become a buzzword for anything that does not agree with the precepts taught by gurus in Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's line. I find the efforts of these quite admirable in that they try to remove any false misconceptions from the aspirant's mind; however, I do not agree with it when it is used as a tool of abuse to describe people and things that they evidently know nothing about.

 

It is like calling someone gay when they are not gay. Like calling someone an alcoholic when they haven't touched a drop in their life. Like calling someone a criminal when that person has always been law-abiding. Unfortunately I haven't seen one correct post in this entire thread, so I wouldn't necessarily advise reading the opinions of those who clearly know very little of the subject matter.

 

To answer your original question, genuine raganuga-bhakti as practised in Vraja is not sahajiya, in that none of those practitioners have an active sex life while imagining themselves to be Radha and Krishna. Of course they may certainly be there, in which case one should know that they are deviants. Genuine lines and sadhakas still exist. It's all a matter of choice. If you want to follow a real guru, there are real gurus there. If you want to follow a cheater, there are also plenty of those around. This is why one is urged to carefully analyse the spiritual master before taking initiation from him, and the same is true vice versa.

[Guest guest]

quote:

By the way, may I ask how it first came to be known that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was actually Nayana-manjari? I've asked several people and none were able to give me an answer. Who first revealed this and how did they come to know?

<hr>

Srila Saraswati Thakur wrote this in a letter to Sripad Kunja Babu, when Kunjada went to Iraq during WWOne to earn money to pay for the expenses of the Gaudiya Math in Kolkata. The letter has been printed by Yati Maharaj of Chaitanya Math.

 

In that letter Srila Saraswati Thakur refers to Kunja Babu as "Bimala Manjari" and says that Nayanamani Manjari cannot continue to do proper service to Radharani because Bimalamanjari has gone to another place, and that Nayanamani Manjari needs for Bimala Manjari to return immediately. There is a video recording, maybe 10 minutes long, of Srila Sridhar Maharaj speaking about this to a group of sannyasi disciples of Srila A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

 

 

[Gaurasundara]

 

I believe Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami considered the REAL babajis to be higher than sannyasis, and that real babajis such as Srila Gaurkishore Das Babaji are doing the highest service when they are worshipping the Lord in their every moment.

 

 

Rather than a correction, isn't that a complete contradiction of what shiva said? Srila Bhaktisiddhanta favoured gosthyananda over bhajanananda (what is the origin of those two thoughts anyway?) yet Srila Gaurakisora was a bhajananandi. Whether he is "real" or "false" the fact still remains that he was a bhajananandi.

 

 

But for the practitioners, for the devotees practicing service who have not yet attained the highest state of realization, it is better to practice loud kirtana (sankirtan) than to engage in solitary meditation.

 

 

What term are you using for "highest state of realization"? Prema?

Also, if you carefully rea done of my earlier posts, you'll find that there are two divisions of sadhana-bhakti; one is vaidhi and the other is raganuga. Nama-sankirtana is the primary anga of both, so there is no question about attaining the "highest state of realization" as opposed to "solitary meditation" when the two go hand-in-hand as far as I know. It all depends on which path one follows.

 

 

There is a letter written to Srila Sridhar Maharaj by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami, in which Srila Saraswati Thakur tells Srila Sridhar Maharaj that he should try and encourage Sripad Krishnadas Babaji Maharaj to give up solitary bhajan and engage in active preaching instead. Because Sripad Krishnadas Babaji Maharaj maintained his preference to engage in solitary bhajan, Srila Sridhar Maharaj ousted him from Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math two or three times. He was told, when you decide to engage in active preaching, you can come back.

 

 

Would you propose that Sridhara Maharaja was a Vaishnava-aparadhi because of this behaviour? I ask this because Krishnadas Babaji remained a babaji until the very end of his life, therefore according to you he never returned to the Math?

 

How would you view this about Krishnadasa Babaji? Why do you think that Babaji remained a babaji instead of a preacher?

[Gaurasundara]

That's very interesting, thanks for telling me. Do you know if this letter has been published on the Internet on some site, or is it only for private viewing?

[Guest guest]

This has not been published on the net as far as I know. But it is published right at the beginning of Yati Maharaj's commentary to Srimad Bhagavata.

[Guest guest]

quote:

Would you propose that Sridhara Maharaja was a Vaishnava-aparadhi because of this behaviour? I ask this because Krishnadas Babaji remained a babaji until the very end of his life, therefore according to you he never returned to the Math?

<hr>

 

You haven't got a clue about what the relationship of Sripad Krishnadas babaji Maharaj was with Srila Sridhar Maharaj. Maybe I know a little, since Srila Sridhar Maharaj talked with me one morning about Babaji Maharaj's mood of devotion, explaining the differences between himself and Babaji Maharaj. I guess you'll say I'm arrogant for saying I know something about this subject, but I do know something about this relationship because Srila Sridhar Maharaj gave me some direct advice about this. I had originally gone to India to meet Babaji Maharaj and from his bhajan kutir at Nandagram I finished up at the Math of Srila Sridhar Maharaj. That year, the Math published a new edition of our Math's songbook in Bengali, and in the front of the songbook was a picture of Babaji Maharaj. The book was published by my friend Bhakti Viraha Avadhuta Maharaj, who has now also left this world. We also have some recordings of Babaji Maharaj singing bhajans at the Math.

 

Offender? What foolishness!!! You really haven't got a clue. It was Babaji Maharaj who first encoraged Srila Govinda Maharaj to establish a temple at the birthplace of Srila Sridhar Maharaj at Hapaniya. Babaji Maharaj used to remain at Hapaniya doing bhajan, and praying to the feet of Srila Sridhar Maharaj for his mercy; he is the one who really promoted the idea that Srila Sridhar Maharaj is the direct representative of Sri Rupa Goswami and the leader of the Rupanuga sampradaya. Babaji Maharaj was ousted but he used to come back to the Math anyway and then go upstairs to see Guru Maharaj. Guru Maharaj would remind him of the letter from Srila Saraswati Thakur, and Babaji Maharaj would smile.

[Gaurasundara]

 

This has not been published on the net as far as I know. But it is published right at the beginning of Yati Maharaj's commentary to Srimad Bhagavata.

 

 

Oh thanks for explaining. If you have this commentary, do you think you could type it out and post it here? Or if you do not wish to speak about it in public, would you prefer sending to my email?

[Gaurasundara]

 

You haven't got a clue about what the relationship of Sripad Krishnadas babaji Maharaj was with Srila Sridhar Maharaj. Maybe I know a little, since Srila Sridhar Maharaj talked with me one morning about Babaji Maharaj's mood of devotion, explaining the differences between himself and Babaji Maharaj. I guess you'll say I'm arrogant

 

 

What a reaction. I never claimed to have a clue as to their relationship since I was only going by what you said, remember. The impression you gave is that their relationship was somewhat acrimonious since Sridhara Maharaja expelled Krishnadasa Babaji at least twice and laid down some conditions for his return. Please kindly try to consider what I am saying and why I say it before responding in an emotional manner.

 

 

Babaji Maharaj was ousted but he used to come back to the Math anyway and then go upstairs to see Guru Maharaj. Guru Maharaj would remind him of the letter from Srila Saraswati Thakur, and Babaji Maharaj would smile.

 

 

So can I ask you again why you think he was in a bhajananandi mood, and why he did not seemingly follow the directions of his guru in the said letter?

[Guest guest]

Why do you login as Gaurasundara?

 

It's very clear to me who you are.

 

for anyone interested, do a search at

http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/search.php?Cat=

 

for the words "Vipina Vihari Gosvami" and see who spells the words this way

 

and your translation of this verse you published on IndiaDivine:

 

vikrIDitaM vraja-vadhUbhir idaM ca viSNoH |

zraddhAnvito yaH zRNuyAd atha varNayed vA ||

bhaktiM parAM bhagavati parilabhya kAmaM |

hRd-rogam Azv apahinoty acireNa dhIraH || (bhag. 10.33.39)

 

“One who faithfully hears or describes the loving sports of Sri Krishna and the young maidens of Vraja will quickly drive away the heart-disease of lust, become sober, and attain supramundane devotion of the Lord.”

 

is also published on your website:

http://www.raganuga.org/frame.php?raganuga=qualification

[Guest guest]

A double agent !!!