Evolution of Gaudiya thought

[raga]

 

In the Gita, Vedanta etc.. it states that the soul is beginningless. Moreover, I have heard from my Gurumaharaj that the soul is an atom of sat-chit-ananda, but I have heard from Madhava that he thinks the jiva-atma soul is not cit or ananda.

 

 

I believe the core issue on this debate is not all that much the jivAtma's possessing what would be thought of as the traditional cit or ananda, precisely as in "cetanaz cetanAnam" and "AnandaM brahma". I'm sure you know that in the Gaudiya theology (viz. CC 1.4), sat, cit and ananda are equated with the saktis sandhini, samvit and hladini, which are the three main constituents of Bhagavan's antaranga-sakti.

 

My argument boils down to the jivAtma's not inherently possessing these three aspects of antaranga-sakti. Now, discussing the relationship between sat-cit-ananda and sandhini-samvit-hladini should prove to be interesting.

[MuralidharDas]

Prabhu,

Maybe we can discuss this some other time.

I'm more interested in thinking about this http://www.scsmath.com/031107_kandivillage_preaching/031107_kandivillage2.html

at the present.

 

- Murali

[Guest guest]

gaurasundara spoketh

 

Fine. Let's forget for a moment that the word 'sahajiya' has had a clear meaning for several centuries and has only recently come to mean what you think. Let's put all of your comments into context, as you are asking me to do. Basically, you started this thread to discuss the deviancy of the "sahajiyas" as part of the "norm." Then you said that Srila Bhaktivinoda followed this "norm," and tried to depict him as a "typical" person who eats meat and so on, is not intelligent enough to select a suitable guru and thus took his initiation from another "sahajiya," who himself belonged to a line of "degraded sahajiyas" since this is the time of terror and darkness that had befallen Mahaprabhu's movement. Is that a correct summary of your views?

 

 

 

No,the point was that sahajiyas had become popular,

the raganuga sadhana that would later be rejected

was being taught commonly, possibly this was done

to attract those who had been exposed to sahajiya

philosophy and when coming in contact with

the more traditional school were looking for a more external form of supposed intimacy in their sadhana,

Therefore raganuga sadhana and siddha pranali

may have been given out where as later by Bhaktivedantas time it wasn't.

 

this was because siddha pranali and the raganuga sadhana

is a lower path then the sankirtan seva, sitting somewhere or another trying to meditate on the minutia

of manjaris or gopis dress ,form, etc, may be

a bonafide path,but Bhaktivedanta and Bhaktisiddhanta

were giving out the higher path, active engagement

in Sankirtan lila, which is non different the Vraja lila,

therefore meditating on vraja lila in the path of

raganuga sadhana or siddha pranali is considered a lower meditation then active engagement in Audharya lila,

the lila of Mahaprabhus mission,direct involvement

in Mahaprabhus continuing lila as opposed to

meditation on a non active lila,meditation or

active involvement, this was the difference

between the world that Bhaktivinode entered

and the world when he left.

[Guest guest]

the soul is beginningless because it is a part

of the beginningless nature of Brahman,the atma

is one,the jiva as a distinct individuality

has a beginning, has to have had a beginning,

we exist as individuals,God had to create our individuality at a point in time, out of His own

Paramatma,giving a piece of himself another dimension as

the jivatma, a localized portion of brahman/paramatma,

one and different then the whole.

 

 

[Guest guest]

what hate campaign ?

 

This thread was not about hating sahajiyas,it was about

the change of thought concerning sadhana and teaching

within gaudiya vaishnavism, you say that the many

older vaisnavas like Bhaktivedanta or Sridhar or Narayana

Maharajas are wrong about the change within Mahaprabhus

school over time ,that is your right, I dont care if you believe or not, i don't feel one way or another about

what you or "sahajiyas" of any kind believe,

don't take the statements meant to show a progressive

gaudiya school to be an attempt to denigrate those who

believe in some other idea, it's not about hating those who believe in another way,it's about presenting

what my own thoughts are.

 

I don't hate sahajiyas or those who i may believe

are foolishly believing in their own hype and self

indulgent practices, i see them as inexperienced

and delusional but i have no antipathy or anger

or ill will towards them, they do as god directs them

on their journey to the highest level .

 

[Guest guest]

 

what hate campaign ?

 

 

 

You have to understand, this is a typical Sai Baba tactic. When you disagree with them, they immediately appeal to emotional hysteria and conjure up all sorts of ideas to the effect that they are being persecuted. This way, they can at least enjoy popular support of the uninformed masses, even if what they say makes absolutely no sense. Once a Sai Baba, always a Sai Baba.

 

Gaurasundara feels he knows that the iskcon parampara is "bogus," but he goes to their temples anyway. I guess when you are single, you have to do what you have to do, principles being sublimated by the need for companionship.

 

[Gaurasundara]

 

No,the point was that sahajiyas had become popular, the raganuga sadhana that would later be rejected was being taught commonly, possibly this was done to attract those who had been exposed to sahajiya philosophy and when coming in contact with the more traditional school were looking for a more external form of supposed intimacy in their sadhana

 

 

How do you know that sahajiyas were popular? How do you know that raganuga sadhana was rejected? Rejected by who? Was it really taught commonly? Who says that people looking "for more" were really looking for "more sex"? How do you know any of this?

 

 

Therefore raganuga sadhana and siddha pranali may have been given out where as later by Bhaktivedantas time it wasn't.

 

 

What is raganuga sadhana? What is siddha pranali? Do you know what they are and what they involve? How do you know it wasn't given out by and during the time of Srila Prabhupada?

 

It is still given out by qualified gurus unto qualified disciples.

 

 

this was because siddha pranali and the raganuga sadhana is a lower path then the sankirtan seva,

 

 

How do you know that raganuga-sadhana is a lower path than sankirtana seva? Did you know that sankirtana (the yuga-dharma) can be given out in any Kali yuga, but it is only in a very rare Kali yuga that Mahaprabhu Himself comes to give the supreme path of manjari-bhava sadhana? On this count alone, I'd say that raganuga-sadhana/manjari-bhava sadhana is really greater than sankirtana yuga-dharma.

 

But alas! I digress! They are really two sides of the same coin where Mahaprabhu's mission is concerned. Please consider the following:

 

"The Lord's desire to appear was born from two reasons: He wanted to taste the sweet essence of the mellows of love of God, and He wanted to propagate devotional service in the world on the platform of spontaneous attraction. Thus He is known as supremely jubilant and as the most merciful of all." - CC Adi 4.15-16

 

I think that's a clear reference to raganuga-bhakti (known as spontaneous attraction in ISKCON) by Srila Prabhupada himself. But wait! I digress again! Earlier in CC, we find:

 

"I shall personally inaugurate the religion of the age--nama-sankirtana, the congregational chanting of the holy name. I shall make the world dance in ecstasy, realizing the four mellows of loving devotional service." - CC Adi 3.19

 

One highly-respected ISKCON Acharya explained this apparent difference by explaining that the introduction of the yuga-dharma was the external cause (bahiranga-karana) of Mahaprabhu's descent, while the enjoyment of rasa and the propagation of it was the internal cause (antaranga-karana). I agree with this view, that is why I say Mahaprabhu's mission was two-fold in this context.

 

"Thus with two intentions the Lord appeared with His devotees and tasted the nectar of prema with the congregational chanting of the holy name." - CC Adi 4.39

 

They're inextricably connected with each other. It is not that one is "higher" and the other is "lower" - they go hand-in-hand.

 

 

the lila of Mahaprabhus mission,direct involvement

in Mahaprabhus continuing lila as opposed to

meditation on a non active lila,meditation or

active involvement, this was the difference

between the world that Bhaktivinode entered

and the world when he left.

 

 

Yet Bhaktivinoda himself practised deep raganuga-sadhana with the knowledge of his own ekadasa-bhava, he wrote profusely about his own participation in the "unimportant lower non active lila" and he also was absorbed in such "low" activities twenty-four hours a day during his last days. What a pity, he wasted so much time when he should have simply chanted the Holy Name, according to you.

[Gaurasundara]

 

what hate campaign ?

 

 

Oh come on. Your initial post consisted of cut'n'paste portions of BG Narasingha's articles about "sahajiyas" and "apasampradayas." The fact is that such articles spread misconceptions, the same misconceptions that you seem to avidly believe in. Of course you are always free to believe what you want, but if you feel that you want to present your understanding as some sort of history essay, then you must understand that you are offering your theories up for constructive criticism.

 

First of all, your whole idea of the "evolution of Gaudiya thought" is untenable since you are talking about the legend of evolution in the Sarasvata line. There has not been just one line, there have been many. Your idea that the degraded practices of the "sahajiyas" were the "norm" really have no substantial evidence to back it up. Certainly degradation has been present just as it is now, but that does not meant that all has been degraded. This was your original statement:

 

"By the time of Bhaktivinode gaudiya thought and practice had degenerated from the time of the 6 goswamis,"

 

That's certainly one heck of a blanket statement! If that was true then how did he feel that Jagannatha das Babaji was a genuine Vaishnava to take siksa from? After all, everyone from the time of the Six Gosvamis was degenerated? Did you realise that you are including everyone, including Visvanatha and Baladeva, in this statement? Shiva, you have to be very careful when you present an idea by using the correct language. Rather, it would be better to say something like "From the time of Baladeva Vidyabhusana, Gaudiya thought and practice had degenerated." Even though this is still incorrect, it would be more believable.

 

 

you say that the many

older vaisnavas like Bhaktivedanta or Sridhar or Narayana

Maharajas are wrong about the change within Mahaprabhus

school over time ,that is your right,

 

 

I don't recall saying anything like that. I said: "The problem here is that neither you nor Narasingha Swami know what a sahajiya actually is." I made that comment in response to your cut'n'paste of BG Narasingha's article. I also said I disagreed with Narayana Maharaja's version. As far as disagreeing with "changes" in Mahaprabhu's movement is concerned, I'll say it again: Certainly degradation has been present just as it is now, but that does not meant that all has been degraded.

 

 

don't take the statements meant to show a progressive

gaudiya school to be an attempt to denigrate those who

believe in some other idea, it's not about hating those who believe in another way,it's about presenting

what my own thoughts are.

 

 

OK, thanks for the clarification.

 

 

I don't hate sahajiyas or those who i may believe

are foolishly believing in their own hype and self

indulgent practices, i see them as inexperienced

and delusional but i have no antipathy or anger

or ill will towards them, they do as god directs them

on their journey to the highest level .

 

 

OK, but I notice that you didn't reply when I asked you to name an individual or a group of sahajiyas who practice all or most of the "deviations" that you speak of. Were you able to do that? I'm not sure, but I have a name for you: Atal Bihari das.

I have heard from several people that ABD is a practising sahajiya. He is a full-fledged card-carrying member of the Sahajiya apasampradaya which advocates the sexual union of male and female sadhakas to reflect that of the transcendental lilas of Radha and Krishna within their own material bodies. ABD has been practising it for 40 years, and has apparently boasted that the best "rasa" is exprienced when practising with the wives of others. Does that sound like pure Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta to you? So certainly this is a degradation, and people like ABD and Hari das Chakrabarthi are people who regularly practise it. This is what sahajiyas are all about.

 

Your definition of sahajiya as being someone who is "natural,so really it can used however the person wants to use it," and proceeding to argue about different connotations and change of meaning over time is fine, but the simple fact is that before Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's time, everyone knew what a sahajiya was. This "new" definition of a sahajiya as being one in a sort of "cheaply enjoying" state of mind is, in my opinion, quite fragile. As degradation can take place at any time, any place and anywhere, this does not mean that there are genuine practising Gaudiya Vaishnavas out there, who genuinely practice pure raganuga-sadhana, who have received knowledge from qualified gurus, and are themselves quite qualified disciples. Therefore this whole idea of the Gaudiya sampradaya being "deluged" by pretenders and cheap enjoyers is not very specific, if not correct altogether.

 

Try to understand what I am saying, Shiva, instead of being an upturned pot. I am fully aware that this discussion has the potential to progress nowhere. The only reason why I am discussing this subject with you is that people may believe your wild generalizations and accept them as absolute truth. I'll also romise to fully agree with you so long as you have the required evidence to back up your claims. That shouldn't be too hard, should it?

[Guest guest]

i like this article.

 

part one

 

then part two

[Gaurasundara]

I don't like those articles, for obvious reasons.

 

Haribol prabhu, but I am scared of all these difficult controversies. I must protect my fragile bhakti-lata, else I might commit the Mad Elephant offense and then the whole thing will be finished. Offences are bad, bad, bad. Hare Krishna!

[Guest guest]

i think results speak louder then words.

 

Bhaktivedanta has spread Mahaprabhus vision to the world

at large,this speaks volumes about the supreme will,

if His conception was not Mahaprabhus will,then someone else

would have been empowered,Saktyavesa avatar, empowered

by the potency of Nityananda,the Guru empowering the conception that was to be distributed widely.

 

If Nityananda had empowered another vision,another

vaisnava then this argument could not be settled simply

by observation,but that is not to be so,the Bhaktivedanta

mission has the empowerment,the other conceptions

have not,that is factual.

 

Clearly the position taken by those against Bhaktivedanta's approach are not backed by Nityananda,

if they were where is the proof,after all the will

of God is that which is manifest.

 

The reason this approach has been mandated is that

the highest level is not easily understood,

and easily misunderstood, the desire for liberation,

position,and worship is so strong that we are easily

led to follow the path that will seemingly fullfill

these desires,thinking in a backwards way we think that if we follow the literal path of raganuga sadhana,

meditating on manjari seva ,that this is pleasing more then any other sadhana to Mahaprabhu,and will be the ticket

to our gaining position in lila.

 

the problem with that attitude is our inability to properly

understand the inner truths,the revealed confidential

siddhanta,without that, all of the teachings about raganuga

and manjari or gopi seva become an impediment and creates

a delusional self conception and delusional conception of the highest most intimate service.

 

that is why it is necessary to have guidance from one who has actual experience and empowerment,Bhaktivedanta clearly was empowered,and in my opinion clearly experienced,

others who have a different approach have yet to prove

that they have the mandate of heaven.

[Gaurasundara]

 

i think results speak louder then words.

 

Bhaktivedanta has spread Mahaprabhus vision to the world

at large,this speaks volumes about the supreme will,

 

 

That is not in disagreement. Srila Prabhupada has certainly offered a very great service at the lotus feet of Mahaprabhu. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

 

I have heard that the Bauls were very widespread in Bengal in the decades (and centuries?) after Mahaprabhu. Does this means that the Bauls also spread their philosophy as per Mahaprabhu's will?

 

By the way, I have also heard that a Vaishnava named 'Premananda Bharati' was told in a vision by Radha-Krishna to go and preach in the West, which he later did. He hit America significantly earlier than Srila Prabhupada did? Was Bharati empowered as well? I have only heard that he had a vision of Radha, not sure if it's true though.

 

 

if His conception was not Mahaprabhus will,then someone else

would have been empowered,Saktyavesa avatar, empowered

by the potency of Nityananda,the Guru empowering the conception that was to be distributed widely.

 

 

How do you know someone else might have been empowered? Can you say that for a fact?

 

And where did you get this idea of Nityananda-Guru from?

 

 

If Nityananda had empowered another vision,another

vaisnava then this argument could not be settled simply

by observation,but that is not to be so,the Bhaktivedanta

mission has the empowerment,the other conceptions

have not,that is factual.

 

 

It may be a fact that Srila Prabhupada (Bhaktivedanta) spread his mission, but I still think that comments like these reek of sectarian pride. It is almost as if you are saying, "we are the best because our guru made it, and everyone else are all losers." Is that a very nice thing?

 

By the way, if you like Srila Prabhupada so much then may I ask why are you quoting from BG Narasingha's articles? He now belongs to one of the "unempowered" branches of Mahaprabhu's mission?

 

 

Clearly the position taken by those against Bhaktivedanta's approach are not backed by Nityananda,

if they were where is the proof,after all the will

of God is that which is manifest.

 

 

That's a very tough statement to make, Shiva. Now it's almost as if you are saying, "Mahaprabhu's mercy was available to everyone before, and now it's only available to US! Come and get it!"

 

Shiva, you are not in any position to say if anyone is "backed" by Nityananda or not. Everyone is the recipient of Mahaprabhu's mercy and Nityananda's as well. Why stop there? Advaita Acharya's mercy is also available to all. Gadadhara! Srivasa! Gaura-bhakta-vrinda! Patita-pamara nahi bache.

 

 

if they were where is the proof,after all the will

of God is that which is manifest.

 

 

Could I ask what constitutes "proof" for you? There is an extended community of Vaishnavas who worship Radha and Krishna together in a multiplicity of ways. It is almost impossible to trace the ways in which Mahaprabhu's appeal has been spread. Gaudiya Vaishnavism is alive and well. What was the will of God?

 

"For a long time I have not bestowed unalloyed loving service to Me upon the inhabitants of the world. Without such loving attachment, the existence of the material world is useless ... I shall accept the role of a devotee, and I shall teach devotional service by practicing it Myself." - CC Adi 3.14.. 20

 

How was it made manifest?

 

"Taking these pure devotees with Me, I shall descend and sport in various wonderful ways, unknown even in Vaikuntha. I shall broadcast such pastimes by which even I am amazed." - CC Adi 4.27-28

 

Personally I think that the very fact that Krishna descended as Mahaprabhu in order to give the highest goal freely even to the unqualified is a totally unprecedented event in the whole history of creation. Spreading this philosophy to the West is certainly a notable achievement, but what would there have been to spread if there was no Mahaprabhu? It is not as if the Sarasvata-parampara was the only group of Gaudiya Vaishnavas out there, they were simply the first to take it worldwide. All glories to them!

 

Having said all of this, I'm not sure where you are going with this argument. First you started talking about sahajiyas (from an incorrect perspective) and now you are talking about the "empowerment" of the Bhaktivedanta-sampradaya. Where are you going with this?

 

 

The reason this approach has been mandated is that

the highest level is not easily understood,

and easily misunderstood, the desire for liberation,

position,and worship is so strong that we are easily

led to follow the path that will seemingly fullfill

these desires,

 

 

Certainly the desire for liberation et al is an impediment to spiritual progress. However, Visvanatha Cakravartipada has mentioned in his highly-esteemed work Madhurya Kadambini that all anarthas will be removed if one sincerely performs his sadhana. Near to the end of the First Shower, he even mentions that Bhakti can take birth in a heart that contains lust, because the whole point of bhakti is to remove lust. And other anarthas of course. Initially your practice of bhakti is unsteady (anisthita-bhakti). This means you are subject to at least six symptoms: utsahamayi (false confidence), ghana-tarala (sporadic endeavour), vyudha-vikalpa (indecision), visaya-sangara (struggle with maya), niyama-aksama (inability to uphold vows), taranga-rangini (enjoying the waves). If one is sincere, his bhakti becomes fixed (nisthita) and so there are symptoms of that described too. Madhurya-kadambini is a nice work, you should read it.

 

 

thinking in a backwards way we think that if we follow the literal path of raganuga sadhana,

meditating on manjari seva ,that this is pleasing more then any other sadhana to Mahaprabhu,and will be the ticket

to our gaining position in lila.

 

 

Well, this is not backwards. This is the philosophy that was preached by Mahaprabhu and was outlined by the Gosvamis, and gained further emphasis with the works of Narotamma Mahasaya and Visvanatha Cakravartipada. About raganuga-sadhana, I have heard that Jiva Gosvami refers to it as 'sadhanam balavedam param,' it is the most powerful among various forms of sadhana. Am I right here?

And didn't I show you from CC before that Mahaprabhu descended with the propagation of Vraja-bhakti as the main reason, with the introduction of the yuga-dharma as a side-factor? What does that tell you?

 

 

the problem with that attitude is our inability to properly understand the inner truths,the revealed confidential siddhanta,

 

 

See, now if it was confidential then how and why was it revealed?

 

 

without that, all of the teachings about raganuga

and manjari or gopi seva become an impediment and creates

a delusional self conception and delusional conception of the highest most intimate service.

 

 

Therefore we must conclude that all of our Acharyas beginning with Rupa Gosvami were all deluded, with no exceptions. Is that a very good idea?

 

 

that is why it is necessary to have guidance from one who has actual experience and empowerment,Bhaktivedanta clearly was empowered,and in my opinion clearly experienced,

 

 

Empowered to preach the glories of the Holy Name, certainly. As for experienced, as far as I know he never gave any instructions in raganuga-sadhana. So if it is necessary to have guidance from "one who has actual experience and empowerment," who would you put forward as a candidate?

 

 

others who have a different approach have yet to prove that they have the mandate of heaven.

 

 

Oh I see, this is like the Catholic Church. Only the Pope has direct access to Jesus and God therefore only the Catholic Church is true.

 

Methinks some more schisms are coming up in the near future. To be frank, it's already happening.

[Gaurasundara]

By the way, you very kindly forwarded me to some very interesting articles. I must now kindly return the favour. Please forward your browser here. Or you can read the online version as you wish.

 

The online version has footnotes, whereas you will have to double-click on the footnote numbers in the doc file to view footnotes.

[Guest guest]

Shiva, here is Srila Sridhar Maharaj's commentary to verse 1.2.18 of Srimad Bhagavatam. Bhava-bhakti can awaken when the devotee is almost pure; it doesn't necessarily wait until he is totally pure.

 

nasta-prayesu abhadresu nityam bhagavata-sevaya

bhagavaty uttama-sloke bhaktir bhavati naisthiki

[sB 1.2.18]

By regular service to the Bhagavata the progressive devotee attains the stage of nistha where feelings of

 

attraction to material life are almost totally extinguished. In that state of uninterrupted rememberance

 

of the Names and Pastimes of Bhagavan the devotee develops bhava-bhakti.

A devotee can fall down again into a mundane conception of life after attaining bhava-bhakti, but even if they do the Lord will mercifully protect his devotee.

Srimad Bhagavatam 5.7.12:

tayettham avirata-purusa-paricaryaya bhagavati pravardhamana-nuraga-bhara-druta-hrdaya-saithilyah praharsa-vegenatmany udbhidyamana-roma-pulaka-kulaka autkanthya-pravrtta-pranaya-baspa-niruddhavaloka-nayana evam nija-ramanaruna-caranaravindanudhyana-paricita-bhakti-yogena paripluta-paramahlada-gambhira-hrdaya-hradavagadha-dhisanas tam api kriyamanam bhagavat-saparyam na sasmara.

 

TRANSLATION

That most exalted devotee, Maharaja Bharata, in this way engaged constantly in the devotional service of the Lord. Naturally his love for Vasudeva, Krsna, increased more and more and melted his heart. Consequently he gradually lost all attachment for regulative duties. The hairs of his body stood on end, and all the ecstatic bodily symptoms were manifest. Tears flowed from his eyes, so much so that he could not see anything. Thus he constantly meditated on the reddish lotus feet of the Lord. At that time, his heart, which was like a lake, was filled with the water of ecstatic love. When his mind was immersed in that lake, he even forgot the regulative service to the Lord.

[Guest guest]

 

We Cannot Jump Into Vrndavana

 

Pseudo-devotees want to jump to spontaneous love without first transcending the material body and mind. They misinterpret Rupa Goswami when he says that the neophyte should follow in the footsteps of the eternal residents of Vrndavana while in the body of a practitioner (sadhaka-deha).

 

In order to follow in the footsteps of the gopis (Krsna's milk-maids) one must first transcend the bodily conception of life through adherence to vidhi. Before doing so, the neophyte should follow the example of the Goswamis, who are eternal residents of Vrndavana appearing on Earth to instruct us by their example.

 

In Vrndavana many Western devotees think that raganuga-bhakti consists of bhajan (solitary worship), as opposed to preaching, or at least not to go out of one's way such that one's bhajan might be disturbed. This is a mistaken conception.

 

We can understand everything correctly from the example of Sri Chaitanya's lila (pastimes). Chaitanya lila is audarya-lila, the distribution of spontaneous love of God. This audarya is the result of the most advanced stage of love of God, mahabhava.

 

Tasting the mellows of ecstatic love for Krsna in the mood of Srimati-Radharani, Sri Chaitanya becomes like a madman and wishes to distribute that love in all directions. In other words, raganuga-bhakti is not exclusive of preaching; it is where realized preaching begins.

 

 

click here for full article

[Gaurasundara]

Very good.

 

One sincere but fanatical devotee once asked me to provide a refutation of one of BG Narasingha's papers that was under discussion at the time. I accepted the request but I had to stop half-way through. Why? Because unfortunately BG Narasingha makes so many mistakes and so many irrelevant points that it is a task indeed to refute!

 

With all due respect to BG Narasingha, he simply does not know what he is talking about. This is a good example:

 

"Pseudo-devotees want to jump to spontaneous love without first transcending the material body and mind. They misinterpret Rupa Goswami when he says that the neophyte should follow in the footsteps of the eternal residents of Vrndavana while in the body of a practitioner (sadhaka-deha). In order to follow in the footsteps of the gopis (Krsna's milk-maids) one must first transcend the bodily conception of life through adherence to vidhi. Before doing so, the neophyte should follow the example of the Goswamis, who are eternal residents of Vrndavana appearing on Earth to instruct us by their example."

 

However, the Gosvamis never instructed anyone to practice raganuga-bhakti by first going through vidhi, as far as have heard. They were quite clear in acknowledging it as a path through which one attains Vaikuntha-bhava, but they never gave any instruction to follow it. Rather, the material in their books is highly relevant to the process of raganuga-sadhana. Also, the 64 angas of bhakti are to be practised both by those who have attained ruci and those who have not, so this is enough instance of "vidhi" when performing "raganuga."

 

Also, I am not aware of anyone who has propounded the idea of "jumping" into Vrndavana. Practically speaking, it is impossible. 'Ceto-darpana-marjanam' is a hard task indeed, especially since we are all burning in samsara-davanala. The sadhana itself may indeed take several lifetimes to complete, so "jumping" into Vrindavan is certainly not possible! Unless, of course, one receives a shower of grace which itself is very rare.

 

P.S. If you're the same guest who spoke about ajata and jata, I'll have to respond tomorrow. I'm a little too tired right now.

 

P.P.S. Something just occurred to me. Please note BG Narasingha's comment:

 

"They misinterpret Rupa Goswami when he says that the neophyte should follow in the footsteps of the eternal residents of Vrndavana while in the body of a practitioner (sadhaka-deha)."

 

Taking this into context along with his other remarks about transcending "bodily consciousness," it seems to me that BG Narasingha is either ridiculing or denying that spontaneous love is to be attained while in the body of a practitioner (sadhaka-deha). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm getting this impression.

 

In which case, what then, is the point of vidhi-bhakti? What is the use of any sadhana whatsoever, if not to be performed in a material sadhaka body? In any case, the process of "vidhi" is being followed by both the vidhi-bhakta and the raganuga-bhakta as far as the 64 angas of bhakti are concerned, so where is the problem?

 

By the way, BG Narasingha is the only person who I have seen who agrees that vidhi-bhakti leads to Vaikuntha. You wouldn't get this same understanding in ISKCON, at least as far as I have seen.

[Guest guest]

 

One sincere but fanatical devotee once asked me to provide a refutation of one of BG Narasingha's papers that was under discussion at the time. I accepted the request but I had to stop half-way through. Why? Because unfortunately BG Narasingha makes so many mistakes and so many irrelevant points that it is a task indeed to refute!

 

 

That's a good one. Whenever I don't want to take the trouble to refute someone's writings, I just say they are so obviously wrong that it isn't worthy of my time. Nevermind that I can't do it. All that matters is what we pretend to be, right?

 

 

With all due respect to BG Narasingha, he simply does not know what he is talking about.

 

 

Yeah, that reminds me of some crazy guy running around on these forums who claimed that Hari-Bhakti Vilasa says one should reject one's guru if something "iffy" is perceived in him. When it was pointed out that HBV said no such thing, the guy immediately changed his tack to "It does not matter that I'm wrong, so why do you keep pointing it out? Stop persecuting me!"

 

Maybe if that guy just admitted his errors instead of trying to argue instead, people would forgive him. Instead, that guy just goes around acting like he knows so much more than everyone else, even when he can't stop making obviously incorrect claims.

 

By the way, may I ask who gave you diksa? As you are a big proponent of diksa initiations, I assume that you have a diksa guru, right? (p.s. Sai Baba does not count)

 

[Guest guest]

 

Having just read G's last spiteful posting, I realize that sometimes it is better to walk away from a fight than to engage in fighting. I usually prefer the mood of Bhimasena to the mood of Yudhisthira. Perhaps because that mood is in my blood since men in my family have military men for 250 years; and my Guru says my son Nitai Sharan is a kshatriya, while his brother Giriraj Sharan spends his spare time practicing karate. But Krishna turned his back on Kalayavana, the European barbarian, and ran away. And if Uddhava had been at Kurukshetra in place of Arjuna then Uddava would have walked away from the warfield instead of fighting - thus spake Bhaktivinode. For me, in regards to G, it is the way of Uddhava that I will follow from now on.

 

-Muralidhar

 

 

 

In my opinion, Murali, your mistake was in assuming your opponent had the intelligence or desire to seriously evaluate a position that is not his own.

 

Anyone who has ever preached to Sai Baba people knows that these people only understand what comes out of their own mental speculation. Why should you think it would be any different from a Sai Baba who claims to have renounced his earlier allegiance?

 

The names change. But the sentimentalism stays the same. People who cannot retract their positions even when publicly proven wrong should not debate on forums like this.

 

[Guest guest]

gaurasundar blessed us with this

 

Personally I think that the very fact that Krishna descended as Mahaprabhu in order to give the highest goal freely even to the unqualified is a totally unprecedented event in the whole history of creation. Spreading this philosophy to the West is certainly a notable achievement, but what would there have been to spread if there was no Mahaprabhu? It is not as if the Sarasvata-parampara was the only group of Gaudiya Vaishnavas out there, they were simply the first to take it worldwide. All glories to them!

 

 

 

what a larf /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

reminds me of christians who squack about jesus coming

for the first and only time in history to save the souls

of the sinners,if you miss him now,you've missed the boat,or so they tell me.

 

unprecedented in the history of creation ?

 

hardly,this lila appears over and over,it is

the tried and true path.

 

I have heard that the Bauls were very widespread in Bengal in the decades (and centuries?) after Mahaprabhu. Does this means that the Bauls also spread their philosophy as per Mahaprabhu's will?

 

 

 

why not mention the baptists or the moonies ?

 

might as well,evidently you cannot distinguish

between Mahaprabhus teachings and others.

 

And where did you get this idea of Nityananda-Guru from?

 

 

 

 

a little place i like to call gaudiya siddhanta.

 

 

That's a very tough statement to make, Shiva. Now it's almost as if you are saying, "Mahaprabhu's mercy was available to everyone before, and now it's only available to US! Come and get it!"

 

Shiva, you are not in any position to say if anyone is "backed" by Nityananda or not. Everyone is the recipient of Mahaprabhu's mercy and Nityananda's as well. Why stop there? Advaita Acharya's mercy is also available to all. Gadadhara! Srivasa! Gaura-bhakta-vrinda! Patita-pamara nahi bache.

 

 

 

one thing you ARE good at is speculating as to the meaning

of the written word and squeezing out of that your own

ideas that always seem to match whatever nonsense

your preaching,kudos /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

as far as my "position" and whether or not i am in one

that suits your definition of "qualified",see previous statement. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

 

"For a long time I have not bestowed unalloyed loving service to Me upon the inhabitants of the world. Without such loving attachment, the existence of the material world is useless ... I shall accept the role of a devotee, and I shall teach devotional service by practicing it Myself." - CC Adi 3.14.. 20

 

 

 

wait...the gospel according to you just infirmed me previously that

Mahaprabhu has never before in the "history of creation"

done what the above quote from you tells us he did a long time ago , apparently Mahaprabhu does this lila regularly,

oops. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

Personally I think that the very fact that Krishna descended as Mahaprabhu in order to give the highest goal freely even to the unqualified is a totally unprecedented event in the whole history of creation. Spreading this philosophy to the West is certainly a notable achievement, but what would there have been to spread if there was no Mahaprabhu? It is not as if the Sarasvata-parampara was the only group of Gaudiya Vaishnavas out there, they were simply the first to take it worldwide. All glories to them

 

 

 

personally i think you contradict

mahaprabhu himself,who cares what you "personally"

feel ?

 

 

everything else you say is goofy,you think that you can

give the higher truths,the pure and actual siddhanta

that the chauvanist bad no good nicks who disagree with

with you must be.(cant they see your superior "pure"

vision).

 

Prabhupada used to give the example of the music school

in germany,it was considered the very best school,

it would not take students who had previous musical training,this was because they taught the highest form

of technique,if a student had previous training the technique and teaching he recieved created bad habits

and an improper attitude making it very difficult

to retrain the student to lose the bad habits .

 

so they would only take students with no previous training,

those with no bad habits,pride, or other impediments

that would make the highest teachings difficult to learn.

 

you may want to look into that. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

Bengali verse by Prabhupada Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami

 

pujala raga-patha gaurava-bhange

matala hari-jana visaya range

The servants of Lord Hari, who revel in satisfying His transcendental desires, worship the path of spontaneous devotion while doing service within the eternal sankirtan of Sri Gauranga.

 

bramala chhadi bhoga cinmaya-bange

dhaula pathi-pathi bhakata-sange

Having given up all types of sense-enjoyment, one should wander through the divine land of Gauda-desa, chanting and running along all the paths and roads in the association of the devotees.

 

chhadala para-ghara arcite gange

bujhala rasa-niti nacata dhange

Leaving the old home forever, to worship on the banks of the River Ganga, one will understand the science of rasa by engaging in sankirtana.

 

- Muralidhar

 

[Guest guest]

The entire philosophy of Prabhupada Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami is summed up in this verse and in this image, which is to be seen on the front of the temple of Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math in Nabadwip.

 

The devotees in the sankirtan of Sri Chaitanyadev feel extreme joy and a spontaneous attraction (raga) for Sri Krishna while looking upwards towards the lila of Sri Krishna, Reality the Beautiful.

[Guest guest]

The verse beneath the sankirtan party in the picture above says

matala harijana kirtana range

pujala raga-patha gaurava bhange

a slight variation on the verse quoted earlier:

pujala raga-patha gaurava-bhange

matala hari-jana visaya range

- Muralidhar

[Gaurasundara]

 

gaurasundar blessed us with this

 

 

Look, can you do us all a favour and discuss in a productive manner that is free from rudeness?

 

 

And where did you get this idea of Nityananda-Guru from?

 

--

 

a little place i like to call gaudiya siddhanta.

 

 

Tough going. I hate to break it to you, but as far as I have heard Nityananda is NOT the adi-guru for anyone except for those in his parampara. There are paramparas coming from Advaita, Gadadhara, and Srivasa as well. It is not inconceivable to think that those figures are the adi-guru for sadhakas in those respective paramparas. In fact, this is what a sadhaka in Advaita-parampara has told me, he and others in his line respect Sri Advaita Acharya as adi-guru. The reason why Krsnadas Kaviraja Gosvami praises Nityananda a lot, is probably because he is in the Nityananda-parampara as well as the fact that he was ordered by Nityananda to write CC. Unfortunately his guru-parampara is not known. But anyway, as far as I have heard, the adi-guru differs from parampara to parampara. It is not a set piece of "Gaudiya siddhanta." You will find similar references to Advaita Acharya in the works of those paramparas as well, before anyone decides to intellectually molest me citing various verses from CC.

 

 

one thing you ARE good at is speculating as to the meaning

of the written word and squeezing out of that your own

ideas that always seem to match whatever nonsense

your preaching,kudos /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

 

It's pretty obvious that you have nothing to do except indulge in sarcastic insults every time someone challenges your points. Sorry guy, but the fact is that you have an extremely sectarian outlook which I am sure is not appreciated by anyone who has even half a brain. Unfortunately, "Gaudiya siddhanta" is not a sectarian philosophy and therefore does not agree with you.

 

 

wait...the gospel according to you just infirmed me previously that

Mahaprabhu has never before in the "history of creation"

done what the above quote from you tells us he did a long time ago , apparently Mahaprabhu does this lila regularly,

oops.

 

 

On what basis do you proclaim that Mahaprabhu does this lila on a "regular" basis? Mahaprabhu comes once in a day of Brahma. So yes, from Brahma's point of view Mahaprabhu descends "every day," but for us he descends only once in a day of Brahma. That's 4.32 billion years you're talking about, pal. Do you still say Mahaprabhu appears "regularly"?

 

Besides, my point was made in reference to the supreme gift that Mahaprabhu came to give. In this way, have a look:

 

"May that Lord who is known as the son of Srimati Sacidevi be transcendentally situated in the innermost chambers of your heart. Resplendent with the radiance of molten gold, He has appeared in the Age of Kali by His causeless mercy to bestow what no incarnation ever offered before: the most sublime and radiant spiritual knowledge of the mellow taste of His service." - CC Adi 1.4

 

"For a long time I have not bestowed unalloyed loving service to Me upon the inhabitants of the world. Without such loving attachment, the existence of the material world is useless." - CC Adi 3.14

 

Regularly? Nah.

 

 

wait...the gospel according to you just infirmed me previously that

Mahaprabhu has never before in the "history of creation"

done what the above quote from you tells us he did a long time ago , apparently Mahaprabhu does this lila regularly,

oops.

 

 

I quoted CC Adi 3.14 in my last post. How did you draw "regularly" from that? What does "For a long time" mean to Mahaprabhu? What does it mean to Brahma? "Yesterday." That's 4.32 billion years ago, pal. That's sure "regular," even for Mahaprabhu! /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

 

everything else you say is goofy,you think that you can

give the higher truths,the pure and actual siddhanta

that the chauvanist bad no good nicks who disagree with

with you must be.(cant they see your superior "pure"

vision).

 

 

You seem to have a serious problem in thinking that I am presenting myself as some hotshot "new acharya on the block" when I have done no such thing, therefore all these "goofy" delusions exist only in your own mind. Apart from that, it is obvious that you have never bothered to read Srila Prabhupada's books properly otherwise you would never be saying all of the silly things that you have. Remind us again how Arjuna is in madhurya-rasa with Krishna? Remind us again how lila-smarana in the mood of a female cannot be done by those in male bodies? Remind us again why only Wal-Mart employees have the sole privilege of marrying their attractive female bosses? Remind us again what is a sahajiya? Etc etc etc.

Therefore it would be a good idea not to poke fun and laugh rolling on the floor at others when the real hilarity lies in the fun-poker.

[Guest guest]

 

Tough going. I hate to break it to you, but as far as I have heard Nityananda is NOT the adi-guru for anyone except for those in his parampara. There are paramparas coming from Advaita, Gadadhara, and Srivasa as well. It is not inconceivable to think that those figures are the adi-guru for sadhakas in those respective paramparas. In fact, this is what a sadhaka in Advaita-parampara has told me, he and others in his line respect Sri Advaita Acharya as adi-guru. The reason why Krsnadas Kaviraja Gosvami praises Nityananda a lot, is probably because he is in the Nityananda-parampara as well as the fact that he was ordered by Nityananda to write CC. Unfortunately his guru-parampara is not known. But anyway, as far as I have heard, the adi-guru differs from parampara to parampara. It is not a set piece of "Gaudiya siddhanta." You will find similar references to Advaita Acharya in the works of those paramparas as well, before anyone decides to intellectually molest me citing various verses from CC.

 

 

 

I was under the impression that one cannot represent the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya without first having had diksa in the aforementioned sampradaya.

 

Given this, and your tendency to spontaneously lecture others on what is Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta, would you enlighten us as to who your diksa guru is?

 

I'm sure you realize that, by your own teachings, your opinions on Gaudiya Vaishnavism cannot be taken seriously without first having had a diksa initiation.

 

p.s. Sai Baba does not count.

[Guest guest]

again we are greatly enriched by gaurasundara;

 

 

 

 

Tough going. I hate to break it to you, but as far as I have heard Nityananda is NOT the adi-guru for anyone except for those in his parampara. There are paramparas coming from Advaita, Gadadhara, and Srivasa as well. It is not inconceivable to think that those figures are the adi-guru for sadhakas in those respective paramparas. In fact, this is what a sadhaka in Advaita-parampara has told me, he and others in his line respect Sri Advaita Acharya as adi-guru. The reason why Krsnadas Kaviraja Gosvami praises Nityananda a lot, is probably because he is in the Nityananda-parampara as well as the fact that he was ordered by Nityananda to write CC. Unfortunately his guru-parampara is not known. But anyway, as far as I have heard, the adi-guru differs from parampara to parampara. It is not a set piece of "Gaudiya siddhanta." You will find similar references to Advaita Acharya in the works of those paramparas as well, before anyone decides to intellectually molest me citing various verses from CC.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

i ve' read diferently,go figger /images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

 

samsarera para haiya bhaktira sagare

ye dubibe se bhajuka nitai candere

amara prabhura prabhu sri gaurasundara

e bada bharasa citte dhari nirantara

 

 

Beyond the ocean of birth and death lies the bhakti ocean. Let those who would swim there worship Sri Nityananda (the original guru ). I will hold this faith within my heart forever: My master is Nityananda; His Lord is Gaurasundara. [by the mercy of Nityananda one gets the mercy of Gaurasundara. Nityananda is therefore the original guru.. As such gurudeva is considered to be the manifest representative of Nityananda, and is thus nondifferent from Him.] (Caitanya Bhagavata 1.17.152-153

 

 

nitai-pada-kamala, koti candra su-sitala,

ye chayaya jagata judaya

hena nitai bine bhai, radha-krsna paite nai,

drdha kari' dhara nitaira paya.

se sambandha nahi yara, vrtha janma gela tara,

sei pasu bada duracara,

nitai na balila mukhe, majila samsara-sukhe,

vidyakule ki karibe tara.

ahankare matta hai-ya, nitai-pada pasariya,

asatyere satya kari' mani

nitaira karuna ha'be vraje-radha-krsna pabe,

dhara nitaiyera carana du'khani.

 

 

The lotus feet of Nityananda Prabhu are as cool as the moonshine from a million moons. This material world is ablaze with the fire of birth and death. The cool shade of the lotus feet of Nityananda can relieve the entire universe from the heat of material existence. Without Nityananda no one can approach Radha and Krsna. If one actually wants to enter into the service of Radha and Krsna, he must accept the shelter of the lotus feet of Nityananda. Anyone who has not established a relationship with Sri Nityananda Prabhu has wasted his life. His birth in the human form of life is useless. He is no better than an animal absorbed in eating, sleeping, mating and fighting. Such a two-legged beast, whose mouth has never uttered the name "Nitai," wallows in the pleasures of family life, and enjoys the happiness offered by birth, death, old age, and disease in the forest fire of material existence. If one has no connection with Nityananda, his so-called academic education and his birth in a high family or great nation will not protect him. At the time of death, nature's law will act, his work will be finished, and he will get another body according to his karma. Why are these human animals acting in this way? They have become maddened by a false conception of life, they have identified the self with the body, and thus they have forgotten their eternal relationship with Nityananda. Such forgetful persons accept the illusory energy to be factual. They consider truth to be unreal and mistake illusion for reality. But by the mercy of Sri Nityananda Prabhu one can attain the service of Sri Radha and Krsna in Vrndavana. Therefore, take shelter of the holy feet of Sri Nityananda Prabhu. (Prarthana , Narottama Dasa hakura)

 

 

i am sorry,i didn't realize that when you said

Mahaprabhu has done what has never been done before,

you meant it,my bad.

 

and i guess you are right,no other avatar has ever

given out the highest thing,I mean look at Radha

and Krsna,or Rama and Sita,I mean,sure,they were

allright,but they didn't give out anything special. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif