Evolution of Gaudiya thought

[Guest guest]

Shiva, Gaurasundara is so lost that he has gone and become friends with scholars who think that Krsnadas Kaviraj Goswami was just expressing his personal opinion or bias when he wrote that section of C.C where he glorified Nityananda Prabhu. These dudes are total sahajiyas. They aren't genuine Gaudiya Vaishnavas at all.

 

narottama sings:

se sambandha nahi yara, vrtha janma gela tara,

sei pasu bada duracara,

nitai na balila mukhe, majila samsara-sukhe,

vidyakule ki karibe tara.

 

these verses were aimed straight at the members of Advaita Acharyas' lineage who minimize the position of Nityananda Prabhu. Shiva, the translation you gave doesn't really express the depth of what is being said:

 

"vidya" (knowledge) "kule" (lineage), they won't protect you, if you offend Nitai.

 

- Murali

 

[Guest guest]

 

In my opinion, Murali, your mistake was in assuming your opponent had the intelligence or desire to seriously evaluate a position that is not his own.

 

Anyone who has ever preached to Sai Baba people knows that these people only understand what comes out of their own mental speculation. Why should you think it would be any different from a Sai Baba who claims to have renounced his earlier allegiance?

 

The names change. But the sentimentalism stays the same. People who cannot retract their positions even when publicly proven wrong should not debate on forums like this.

 

 

 

How is it that we only see sentimentalism in another's point of view and not our own. The only person who publicly came close to showing an objective approach in Gaudiya vaishnavism is Sri Baladeva Vidyabhushana. There is nothing wrong in being somewhat sentimental since in this world, not everybody is born a pandit of nyaya and vyakarana, but that fact should be acknowledged and not shoved under the carpet. Of course, God would not be be too cruel to those who do not have shastric temperament. Would he leave those people to die in samsar? Even in shastric world, the Vedas and the Sutras are not entirely clear to give room to persons of different temperament to bring out their interpretations. Then why cannot God give different people different paths according to their temperaments. Is He limited in doing so? -- A proven path is necessarily correct, but an unproven path is not necessarily incorrect. Some people take a chance and may be they get to see God through their "unproven" path.

 

Lets look at the Gaudiya position. That madhura bhakti is the highest -- this is being told by someone in madhura bhakti. Then in madhura bhakti, parakiya is the highest. This is again being told by someone in parakiya rasa. Then in parakiya rasa, the position of Sri Radha is the highest. This again is being told by a devotee of Sri Radha. And among the devotees of Sri Radha, the manjaris are the highest. And this is being told by someone who has a manjari svarupa. Yes, all this "can" be found in "shastra", but so can the positions of opposing party be found in "shastra".

[Guest guest]

first, that quote was from the Caitanya Bhagavat

not the Caritamrta.

 

since you mentioned it though here is a Bhaktivedanta

lecture on the Caitanya Caritamrta and other stuff.

 

"So Nityananda means prakasa, svayam-prakasa, Balarama. Balarama is, I mean to say, presenting Krishna. Therefore Balarama is guru-tattva. Guru is representative of Balarama, of Nityananda, Guru Nityananda, because He is exhibiting Krishna. He is presenting Krishna, prakasa. Just like when there is sunshine you can see everything very correctly. That is called prakasa. In the darkness everything is covered. At night we cannot see, but during daytime, when there is prakasa, illumination, then we can see everything. So Nityananda Prabhu is Balarama. Balarama is prakasa-tattva. He's manifesting Krishna. Balarama hoila nitai. So vande sri...Sri Krishna Caitanya is the Supreme Absolute Personality of Godhead, and next, Nityananda, or, yes, Nityananda, is exhibiting Him. When Nityananda was preaching in Bengal, He first of all delivered the Jagai and Madhai. That was his first business. He showed how to serve Sri Krishna Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Sri Krishna Caitanya means Krishna Himself. Sri-krishna-caitanya radha-krishna nahe anya. Radha-Krishna combined together is Sri Krishna Caitanya. And Nityananda is exhibiting Krishna, Caitanyadeva."

 

 

Balarama means guru-tattva. Balarama represents guru. Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah. If we want to understand Caitanya Mahaprabhu, if we want to understand Krsna, then we must take shelter of Balarama. Nayam atma bala-hinena labhyah. This bala- hinena labhyah, this Vedic injunction, means "Without the mercy of Balarama you cannot understand, you cannot realize your spiritual identification. So that Balarama comes as Nityananda Prabhu. Balarama haila nitai. Therefore we must take shelter of Balarama."

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yasyamsamsamsam paratmakhilanam

postha visnurbhati dugdhabdhisayi

ksaunirbhatayat kala so'pyanantas

tam sri nityananda ramam prapadye

 

I offer my full obeisances unto the feet of Sri Nityananda Rama, whose secondary part is Visnu lying in the ocean of milk. That Ksirodakasayi Visnu is the Supersoul of all living entities and the maintainer of all the universe. Sesa Naga is His further sub-part. (Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 1.11)

 

 

 

nityananda-avadhuta sabate agala

caitanyera dasya-preme haila pagala

 

Sri Nityananda, the wandering mendicant, is the foremost of all the servants of Sri Caitanya. He is like the gateway through which all service to Sri Caitanya must pass. He became mad in the ecstasy of service to Sri Caitanya. (Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 6.48)

 

 

dui bhai eka tanu - samana-prakasa

nityananda na mana', tomara ha'be sarvanasa

ekete visvasa, anye nakara sammana

"ardha-kukkuti-nyaya" tomara pramana

 

These two brothers [Gaura and Nitai] are like one body; they are identical manifestations. If you do not believe in Lord Nityananda, you will fall down. If you have faith in one but disrespect the other, your logic is like the logic of accepting half a hen. (Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 5.175 - 176)

 

 

dui bhai eka tanu - samana-prakasa

nityananda na mana', tomara ha'be sarvanasa

ekete visvasa, anye nakara sammana

"ardha-kukkuti-nyaya" tomara pramana

 

These two brothers [Gaura and Nitai] are like one body; they are identical manifestations. If you do not believe in Lord Nityananda, you will fall down. If you have faith in one but disrespect the other, your logic is like the logic of accepting half a hen. (Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 5.175 - 176)

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here is a bit from Bhaktisiddhanta

 

 

One who neglects to seek the special favor of the guru and to enter into the relation of disciple ship with the spiritual guide will miss entry to the spiritual plane. Nityananda is the Primary Manifestive Constituent of the Divinity. Nityananda alone possesses the distinctive function of the guru. In Nityananda the function is embodied. Nityananda is the servant-God. He serves Sri Gaurasundar by the distinctive method of reverential servitude. He is identical with Sri Balarama of krsna-lila. Sri Balarma is not the chum of Krsna, but His respected elder brother. It is intimate relationship characterized by becoming reserved on one side and of respectful deference on the other. Individual souls are under the directions of Nityananda. They receive their service of Sri Gaurasundara i.e. of Krsna, at His hands. Nityananda is not a jiva. He is Divinity. He is the ultimate source of the jiva. The jiva is a potency of Nityananda. No jiva can be the medium of the service of the Absolute to another jiva. The Absolute alone may communicate. His service to the separable constituents of Himself. This is the real nature of the function of the guru.

 

 

But all jivas are not liable to be eclipsed by the deluding potency. Those who are so liable are again distinct from the eternally free jivas. The eternally free jivas are inseparable associates of Nityananda. They are integrated part and parcels of Himself. They never fall into the clutches of maya. When Nityananda manifests His appearance on the mundane plane His inseparable constituents also appear in His company. They sometimes manifest their functions on this lower place in a visible form on the errands of Nityananda. They are Vaisnavas whose subordination to Nityananda is natural and ingrained in their nature. It is not necessary for such souls to undergo the process of enlightenment for being restored to the spiritual plane. Unless this fact is born in the mind the conditioned soul may be tempted to undervalue the constant guidance of the guru on the hypocritical plea of following in the footsteps of the eternally free pure devotees. Those, therefore, who suppose that deliverance from the bondage of this world should be practicable without the constant guidance of the spiritual preceptor, confound the conditioned state with the free.

 

 

The guidance of the guru is no curtailment of one's spiritual freedom. Those who are eternally free also follow his guidance by the spontaneous undeviating impulse of their perfectly pure nature. Guidance of the guru is the only divine guidance. Only atheists who are by their choice opposed to the service of Godhead, can be consistent opponents of the obligation to serve the guru in the same unconditional way as one should be prepared to serve Godhead Himself. There is no difference between the two functions. If the claim of the one is denied it necessarily involves the denial of the claim of the other. Nityananda and His companions form one of the five groups of the associates of Sri Krsna Caitanya, whose distinctive function is that of the guru.

 

 

But Nityananda does not directly instruct in the confidential service of Krsna. Srimate Radhika is the guru of the inner circle of the servants of Krsna. Srimati, however, accepts the offer of service of only those souls who are specially favored by Nityananda and are deemed by Him to be fit for Her service. There is, therefore a most intimate relationship between the function of Nityananda and that of Srimati which is at once supplementary and inclusive of the former.

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[Gaurasundara]

 

ve' read diferently,go figger

 

 

And how did I know that you were going to quote exactly the same verse that I thought you would quote? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

Dear Shiva, on one hand you accuse me of missing the points that you make when I have done nothing except address all of your points. Can you kindly point out a place where I have left a point of yours unanswered, besides your claiming it so? If you are sincerely honest, I trust that you will find that it is really your good self who has never comprehended any of my points. Your quotes about Nityananda Prabhu are a good example in point. Didn't I tell you: "Nityananda is NOT the adi-guru for anyone except for those in his parampara. There are paramparas coming from Advaita, Gadadhara, and Srivasa as well. It is not inconceivable to think that those figures are the adi-guru for sadhakas in those respective paramparas. In fact, this is what a sadhaka in Advaita-parampara has told me, he and others in his line respect Sri Advaita Acharya as adi-guru."

 

Fascinating how you immediately start to quote verses that really prove my point; you are quoting verses from Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami and Vrindavan Das Thakura, who were both blessed by Nityananda. Did you bother to ask a devotee in the Advaita-parampara what he thinks of that? A devotee in Gadadhara-parampara? Obviously not.

 

Please, Shiva, do some field research. There are a multiplicity of ways in which Mahaprabhu is worshipped. In this particular aspect, we can see that a follower of Advaita-parampara, for example, will respect Advaita Prabhu as the "adi-guru" and not Nityananda, because it is only/mostly the followers in a Nityananda-parampara that will respect Nityananda Prabhu as adi-guru. Try to research this, before posting slokas that don't really prove your case.

[Gaurasundara]

To prove my point, here's something from Advaita-prakasa:

 

"Advaita Prabhu could understand the hearts of everyone, for He is the spiritual master of the whole world. He fulfills the desires of the pure devotees like a desire tree." - Chapter 9.

 

And that's from the ISKCON edition as well.

[Gaurasundara]

 

Shiva, Gaurasundara is so lost that he has gone and become friends with scholars who think that Krsnadas Kaviraj Goswami was just expressing his personal opinion or bias when he wrote that section of C.C where he glorified Nityananda Prabhu.

 

 

I'm lost? Good. I'm certainly lost everytime I read Shiva's take on everything. I suppose you agree with his conclusion that Arjuna is in madhurya-rasa with Krishna? This seems to be a very nice siddhanta!

 

Dear Murali, I had a little respect for you before because I thought you were an honest representative of your Gurudeva, but that is totally gone now. Your continuing campaign of envy against anyone who does not agree with your viewpoint is so flabbergasting that it is beyond belief. If you actually bother to study the wealth of Gaudiya tradition out there, you'll realise that Mahprabhu is worshipped in a variety of ways, not just your way. It's a fact, Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was influenced in a big way by Nityananda Prabhu. Vrindavan das Thakura was Nityananda Prabhu's disciple. You will hear similar praise of Gadadhara Pandita, Advaita Acharya and Srivasa Pandit from their respective followers. I believe that I have shown just one example of this in my previous posting. Unfortunately you seem to think like Christian missionaries who think that their way is the only way. I have no problem with that, but I feel that I must object when such sectarian views are promulgated in public forum that risk alienating members of other lineages. You really should engage in some field research before summarily dismissing their views as "lost."

 

As for my being "friends" with scholars, I have friends who come from all walks of life. I am friends with ISKCON devotees, ritviks, followers of Narayana Maharaja, Sridhara Maharaja, Govinda Maharaja, Gour Govinda Maharaja, Tripurari Maharaja, as well as friends with those from the traditionalist "camp." I don't really believe in the "camp" system as Vaishnavism is against the envious basis of a sectarian mentality. Such an attitude is non-productive to devotee relationships.

 

 

These dudes are total sahajiyas.

 

 

Evidently you haven't been paying attention to this topic flow which is quite a shame, otherwise you should know by now what a sahajiya is before you slander others of being so. For the record, I do not have sexual relations with other people's wives in an attempt to emulate Radha-Krishna lila. Would you be suggesting that I indulge in such activities? I thought you were a most gracious Vaishnava who wouldn't be involved in levelling such examples of unfounded slander and abuse. Apparently I am forced to think that this is your normal strategy of dealing with people of different opinions. Previously you made some extremely hurtful and insensitive remarks relating to how I attend ISKCON temples with the sole purpose of attracting young girls, which is wholly untrue. Do you honestly think that your guru, Sridhara Maharaja, would approve of your slanderous behaviour?

 

 

They aren't genuine Gaudiya Vaishnavas at all.

 

 

Dear Murali, you simply are not in any position to judge who is a genuine Gaudiya Vaishnava and who is not. Kindly think it over, and let me know if you are in a position to judge who is practicing sadacara and who is not.

 

I do wish that I could have your association but your recent behaviour has been extremely disappointing to witnes, to say the least.