Moksha

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

How many of Krishna bhakta here thinks that they have sufficient devotion to get MOKSHA in this life .

I don't have such devotion and i feel that I need unlimited birth and Krishna kripa to get to that stage.

How many of you think that that you will be librated in some finite number of birth. .

Or do you know any living body on this earth who is/are sure to get liberation in this life.

Can you say for sure about this for your living guru majharaj/s .

 

Hari BOL

[yasodanandana]

i know for sure one pure devotee.. friend and associate of Srila Prabhupada.. he's my guru maharaja Srila Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Goswami.. and i know other pure devotees at the higher stage also because my Guru Maharaja says that they are pure...

 

also:

 

I have seen and listened to Srila Bhakti Vallabha Tirtha Maharaja and Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja..

 

i had also the great fortune to be friend to some western devotees disappeared in Sri Vrindavan Dham

.

.

 

i have nothing in common with these persons, if not the dhoti, kurta and tilaka..

 

a very sad thread...

[Guest guest]

Hare krishna prabhu,

Kindly send me the complete routine work and details of your guru. I really want to know the qualities of such person . What he does to be so that he is entitled for liberation.

Hari BOL.

[yasodanandana]

http://www.vina.cc/stories/GENERAL/2003/1/bvp_vyasapuja.html

http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/showflat/cat/marketplace/38927/0/collapsed/5/o/1

 

go in this site

http://www.iskcon.it/prabhupadadesh/

 

scroll the page .. in the bottom you'll find SETTEMBRE(september)

 

click on it

 

scroll and find 17 settembre 2003

 

click on "S.S. Puri Maharaja racconta le sue memorie di Srila Prabhupada, windows media player ( 42.94MB, 65min ) qui: ( Audio-video ) "

 

you will find something also in the byography of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada "Lilamrita".. there's a famous exchange between guru maharaja and prabhupada close to his glorious disappearance

 

in this way you will have a little idea

 

bhakti vallabha tirtha maharaja and gaura govinda maharaja are very easy to find in the web.. please use a research engine

.

.

.

 

of course i am not speaking of my guru to say that only him is pure, only his organization is good, only his follower are devotees and so on..

 

i eagerly wait for other people enlighting me, speaking about other vaishnavas that (for my big disgrace) i do not know

[Guest guest]

You will not achieve moksa through pure devotion. It does not work like that. Bhakti yoga, jnana yoga, and karma yoga are in reality all one and the same. jnana yoga is the most difficult but without realisation the other two are pointless.

The purpose of Bhakti is really contemplation, however, puja in the form of ritual can give results easier but only with one first has jnana, and the process of puja is really a form of karma yoga. The idea is to get into a state of repetetive ritual where one carries out their yoga without thought, similarly bhakti yoga is to put your mind into a state where it only contemplates the essence of Krsna, by putting your mind into such a state, it becomes easier to stop thinking and clear your mind, you enter a state of meditation, but without jnana one will not realise this state and the purpose of it. By acting on impulse instead of thinking and ridding oneself of desire, one will realise moksa but first one must reach a pre state. Either by putting all your desire into Krsna and then abandoning that desire or by doing things automatically without desire of anything else.

 

moksa

[Haridham]

well moksa ji, krsna states otherwise in the bagavat gita.

 

I think I would take the authority of krsna over you.

 

BG 12.2: The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Those who fix their minds on My personal form and are always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith are considered by Me to be most perfect.

 

BG 7.29: Intelligent persons who are endeavoring for liberation from old age and death take refuge in Me in devotional service. They are actually Brahman because they entirely know everything about transcendental activities.

 

BG 7.30: Those in full consciousness of Me, who know Me, the Supreme Lord, to be the governing principle of the material manifestation, of the demigods, and of all methods of sacrifice, can understand and know Me, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, even at the time of death.

 

BG 8.7: Therefore, Arjuna, you should always think of Me in the form of Kṛṣṇa and at the same time carry out your prescribed duty of fighting. With your activities dedicated to Me and your mind and intelligence fixed on Me, you will attain Me without doubt

 

BG 8.8: He who meditates on Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, his mind constantly engaged in remembering Me, undeviated from the path, he, O Pārtha, is sure to reach Me.

 

Also your statement that says krsna is impersonal is not what krsna says

 

BG 7.24: Unintelligent men, who do not know Me perfectly, think that I, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, was impersonal before and have now assumed this personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is imperishable and supreme

 

Its good to read the bagavat gita.

 

Hare Krsna

[theist]

 

You will not achieve moksa through pure devotion.

 

 

PURE devotion is liberation.

[Tarun]

moxa = moksa is life's 4th goal, prema is life's 5th goal.

Spiritual life is no popularity contest.

When all around u shun u, u know u r making some progress.

[Govindaram]

"When all around u shun u, u know u r making some progress"

 

I feel happy now.

[Haridham]

moxa = moksa is life's 4th goal, prema is life's 5th goal.

Spiritual life is no popularity contest.

When all around u shun u, u know u r making some progress.

 

When you made the above comment who were you refering to?

 

Also what are the first three goals?

[Guest guest]

If Krsna is a metaphor for Brahman which is possible seeing how he said he was all things and he was Brahman, then what I say still stands true. If however, you are sadly deluded and believe that Krsna is some Godhead type figure then you are being further deluded.

 

BU 1.4.10

In the beginning this world was only brahman, and it knew only itself (atman), thinking: 'I am brahman.' As a result, it became the Whole. Among the gods, likewise, whosoever realized this, only they became the Whole. It was the same also among the seers and among humans. Upon seeing this very point, the seer Vamadeva proclaimed: 'I was Manu, and I was the sun.' This is true even now. If a man knows 'I am brahman' in this way, he becomes this whole world. Not even the gods are able to prevent it, for he becomes their very self (atman). So when a man venerates another deity, thinking, 'He is one, and I am another', he does not understand. As livestock is for men, so is he for the gods. As having a lot of livestock is useful to a man, so each man proves useful to the gods. The loss of even a single head of livestock is painful; how much more if many are lost. The gods, therefore, are not pleased at the prospect of men coming to understand this.

 

 

So you see, if you believe in Krsna as a god, then you are merely deluding yourself and will achieve nothing more than becoming one of 'his' cows. If you read it as keeping Brahman in your mind and doing all actions in the name of Brahman, then you may realise that you are also part of the illusion, therefore, all karma that you create, is not 'your' karma and it is not 'your' desire but Brahman's desire, or if you like Krsna's desire. There is no-self, only Brahman, and 'you' are part of that Brahman. Atman is not your atman, but the universal atman that you form part of. Therefore, by acting on instinct without thought for a deluded self, one achieves moksa. The key to moksa, is not reaching a state of non-desire, nor is it seeking to end karma, the key to moksa is realising that you are part of the illusion of self also, not just everything that you perceive around you. Once you realise that you too do not really exist as an 'I' but as 'limb'/'idea' of Brahman/Krsna then you will achieve moksa. This is what is meant in the Gita, that is why without jnana, bhakti and karma yoga are worthless. Once realising has occurred in jnana one needs to then forget jnana, let go of it, and follow karma yoga via bhakti yoga, that is acting without thought and desire (because one realises that one is merely part of the whole and not individual).

 

moksa

[Haridham]

my friend you are limiting Krsna to your imperfect and limited senses. Just because you are limited doesnt mean krsna is. Dont misinterpret krsna's words. He says it himself he has a spiritual form, you should read the bhagavat gita as it is and if you have, read it again and try to understand it.

 

Now we are not krsna, we are part and parcel of krsna. Krsna is the whole and we are part and parcel of the whole. Qualitively we are like krsna but not quantitively.

 

Being part of the whole doesnt make you the whole, it just makes you part of the whole.

 

I have a two hands, two legs, a stomach, a head etc, etc etc but I am not my hands, I am not my legs

they just make the whole body.

 

 

("He whose mind is fixed on my PERSONAL form, always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith, is considered by Me to be most perfect." --- Bhagavad-gita 12.2)

 

again and again, i would take krsna's authority over yours.

 

BG 7.24: Unintelligent men, who do not know Me perfectly, think that I, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, was impersonal before and have now assumed this personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is imperishable and supreme.

 

and here he states again...

 

......BG 7.25: I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My internal potency, and therefore they do not know that I am unborn and infallible.

 

 

Therefore, by acting on instinct without thought for a deluded self, one achieves moksa. The key to moksa, is not reaching a state of non-desire, nor is it seeking to end karma, the key to moksa is realising that you are part of the illusion of self also, not just everything that you perceive around you. Once you realise that you too do not really exist as an 'I' but as 'limb'/'idea' of Brahman/Krsna then you will achieve moksa. This is what is meant in the Gita, that is why without jnana, bhakti and karma yoga are worthless. Once realising has occurred in jnana one needs to then forget jnana, let go of it, and follow karma yoga via bhakti yoga, that is acting without thought and desire (because one realises that one is merely part of the whole and not individual).

 

well krsna has another opinion and funny how a light can talk eh????

 

BG 8.28: A person who accepts the path of devotional service is not bereft of the results derived from studying the Vedas, performing austere sacrifices, giving charity or pursuing philosophical and fruitive activities. Simply by performing devotional service, he attains all these, and at the end he reaches the supreme eternal abode.

 

So your above statement doesnt match with what krsna has to say.

 

I find it funny that you have a form but something that created you doesnt have a form???? That is interesting isnt it. Kinda like saying the fruits are there but the tree that produced the fruit doesnt have a form.

 

So yes krsna and bramjyoti are the same. Bramajyoti is krsna's energy. If there is sunlight there must be the sun right? So with the energy there must be an energetic.

 

Where does the Bramajyoti come from?

 

Brahma Samhita also states the following.

 

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

 

BS 5.1: Kṛṣṇa who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes.

 

Nothing wrong with being one of Krsna's cows actually. THat would be the most wonderful thing.

 

 

avajānanti māṃ mūḍhā

mānuṣīṃ tanum āśritam

paraṃ bhāvam ajānanto

mama bhūta-maheśvaram

 

Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature as the Supreme Lord of all that be

 

surrender to krsna instead of challenging him, then you can understand him.

 

teṣāṃ satata-yuktānāṃ

bhajatāṃ prīti-pūrvakam

dadāmi buddhi-yogaṃ taṃ

yena mām upayānti te

 

BG 10.10: To those who are constantly devoted to serving Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me.

 

So hope that clears things up, there are other verses too by the way if it doesnt help but if this doesnt help then what krsna says is correct and there will be no point in me posting anything.

 

I am sure others will surely point things out to you as you go along.

 

Chant Hare krsna

 

Haridham

 

 

[Guest guest]

My friend we read the same passage and we both see something different. That is quite laughable. Considering the book and ourselves are merely different parts of the same.

In some aspects I have not actually disagreed with you. What we disagree on is the nature of Krsna. How can we both be part of Krsna and separate at the same time??? We are either part of or we are not part of.

Imagine just for a moment the whole world is Krsna. Krsna is the essence within the world, through the world, outside of the world and is the world. Then surely such a being can manifest part of itself in the form of a man or God. But even by so doing it does not stop being the world, and everything else I have just said. Furthermore, the manifestation itself is merely part of the whole, and is not actually the whole, because if it was the whole, then everything outside the manifestation would cease to be (if it ever was).

 

What exactly is your goal? moksa or a cow??

What exactly is it that Krsna is offering in the Mahabrahata? Note that none of the characters achieves moksa.

Moksa is not heaven. Moksa means freedom, but freedom from what?

If one does not understand what Moksa actually is, then how can one argue against what I am talking about?

 

"surrender to krsna instead of challenging him, then you can understand??"

 

That is the closest you have got to moksa. Only your ignorance of jnana prevents you seeing why that is so.

 

The Gita means many things to many people, it all depends on how you approach it and what you were looking for when you approached it.

 

Surrender to 'fate' (I use fate for want of a word, you can use Krsna if you like, or atman, or brahman etc). This is because one does not have control over one's environment, and it is one's social and physical environment that creates the illusion of self, however, if one realises that one is part of that illusion also in the interconnectedness of rta then one simply surrenders to one's fate within this web and acts without desire, acting without desire is acting on impulse, because when we stop to think, we alter our initial true perception and put on it a concept of desire. This is what is meant by surrender. For example, you think you have a choice when you come to a junction, but in reality the choices that you perceive are created by the nature and existence of the junction. You only delude yourself that you had a real choice.

 

Another example, The Chinese philosopher Men Tzu (Mencius) once said that our instinct is good because when we see a child about to fall into a well, we automatically feel alarm and seek to rescue it. It is when we stop and think that we begin to add desire, we might think that if I rescue this child I will be considered a hero, I might get a reward, or this child is the child of my enemy, perhaps it is better I let it fall, or if I rescue this child it will make me late for an appointment that I must attend... the child is not my problem... etc etc. You get the idea, it is when we stop to think that we create desire and desire leads to a delusion of self. Acting on impulse removes this desire.

 

Puja creates a routine by doing the same thing over and over again we stop thinking about what we are doing and do it on impulse, just like driving a car. How many times have you started a repetitive car journey (such as going to work every day at the same place) and suddenly found yourself at your destination without recollection of the journey??? it is because we stop thinking and do things automatically without thought or desire.

 

I simply read the same passages as you but come to different conclusions.

 

moksa

 

 

[Haridham]

absolutly. YOu should come to the conclusion tha krsna wants you to come to and that conclusion is that he is the athourity.

 

It is laughable that you dont want to take krsna's words as it is but interpret them so they fit your desires and convience. YOu didnt answer any of my questions but kept repeating the same thing over.

 

So yes we both came to different conclusions but I came to the conclusion with faith that Krsna's words are the authority rather then speculate with my imperfect senses.

 

ANyways, as krsna says....fools deride me.......

 

Hare Krsna

 

 

[Guest guest]

My appologies friend, I did not realise you were addressing questions to me.

 

BG 2:62

When a man thinks of objects, attachment for them arises. From attachment arises desire; from desire arises wrath.

 

2:63

From wrath arises delusion; from delusion, failure of memory; from failure of memory, loss of conscience; from loss of conscience he is utterly ruined.

 

If Krsna is substance, then he is an object.

 

BG 3:34

Love and hate lie towards the object of each sense; let none become subject to these two; for, they are his enemies.

 

Do you feel anger towards my posting? but more importantly, do you feel love towards Krsna?

 

BG 3:37

It is desire, it is wrath, born of the energy of Rajas, all-devouring, all sinful; that, know thou, is the foe here.

 

BG 8:21

What is called the Unmanifested and the Imperishable, That, they say, is the highest goal; which having reached none return. That is My highest place.

 

Only a fool would think that we were created, are we not all the same, are we not all part of Brahman. When reaching the moon, the wiseman will say, 'I am you'

You ask how something unmanifested could create me? Is it not you then who is doubting the word of Krsna??

My answer is that we were not created, because we are still part of the whole. The concept of being separate is merely delusion.

 

BG 9:22

Those men who, meditating on Me as NON-SEPARATE, worship Me all around, - to them who are ever devout, I secure gain and safety.

 

Here it is not referring to worshipping Krsna, it is saying that by meditating upon the oneness (the non-separate nature between you and Krsna) is like worshipping, is the equivalent of.

 

BG 18:54

Becoming Brahman, of serene self, he neither grieves nor desires, treating all beings alike; he attains supreme devotion to Me.

 

By becoming Brahman, you are becoming Krsna because Krsna says that he is Brahman. You treat all beings alike because you realise that you are one and the same, all beings are merely different aspects of the whole, like the blind men feeling the elephant, we live our lives with our eyes closed to the reality.

 

BG 18:66

Abandoning all dharma, seek me as thy sole Refuge; I will liberate thee from all sins; do thou not grieve.

 

Why abandon all dharma? because all dharma is pointless in the whole. How can the warrior have dharma when the warrior is merely part of the same whole as the Brahmin and everything else. This is why this verse was given at the end. Arjuna could have left the battle and probably should have. By fighting he attached himself to the dharma of the warrior and failed to realise that all dharma is senseless in Brahman/Krsna.

 

You say that you believe the words of Krsna before believing me, but you fail to realise that I am Krsna and I am you. You have not failed to believe in me, because I believe in myself.

 

moksa

[Guest guest]

YOU WANT TO BECOME KRISHNA !!!

 

 

[Guest guest]

I don't want to become Krsna, because that in itself is desire. I already know that there is no difference between me and Krsna, we are merely different aspects of the whole.

 

That is what moksa is all about.

 

moksa

[bhavini]

There is a difference between you and Krishna because he is the whole which you are part and parcel of. We are just mere drops of the Ocean called Krishna. If you read the Bhagwad Gita it specifically states this.

[Guest guest]

That is true, we are not atman, we are part of atman.

Very Ramanuja of you to point that out.

But we can still identify ourselves with the whole, if there is not separation of reality then does that not make us the whole?

Very Sankara of me to make that point.

 

 

moksa

[Guest guest]

the main problem is that you do not take the bhagavad gita text as it is but you give interpretation:

 

BG 8:21

What is called the Unmanifested and the Imperishable, That, they say, is the highest goal; which having reached none return. That is My highest place.

(krsna says "my highest place"... it seems that there's an individual, krishna and that he acts (he says "my".. possession, property)..

 

BG 9:22

Those men who, meditating on Me as NON-SEPARATE, worship Me all around, - to them who are ever devout, I secure gain and safety.

(the words "cintayanto mam" stasy for "meditating on me".... "mam" is the key word... ME (=krishna) .. your translator has added "non-separate")

 

BG 18:54

Becoming Brahman, of serene self, he neither grieves nor desires, treating all beings alike; he attains supreme devotion to Me.

(this comes from a arbitrary interpretation of "brahma bhuta"... we are at the end of bhagavad gita, veru easy to understand if braham bhuta is "becoming brahman" or "when one realizes brahman" the translation of bhaktivedanta swami prabhupada and the gaudya math)

 

BG 18:66

Abandoning all dharma, seek me as thy sole Refuge; I will liberate thee from all sins; do thou not grieve.

(you can speculate as much as you can.. this verse is plenty of individuals and actions: "you seek me".. "i will liberate you"... "you do not grieve".. The interpretation you give to "sarva dharma" is very unique)

 

i am not god, to believe to be god is arbitrary, not based on any scripture and not logic.... maybe it is somewhat an hindu tradition, but krsna says: "leave all material traditions and surrender to ME"... in this verse there's a YOU and a ME, to say that that's false or illusory it is not at all moksha

 

yasoda nandana dasa (with PEACE!!)

[Guest guest]

Let us just agree to differ.

I came to the Gita having read extensively other texts, various interpretations etc. Some older than the Gita, others younger. Some Indian traditions, others Chinese traditions that have been influenced by Indian tradition or have themselves influenced Indian tradition.

My interpretation of the Gita keeps with what I consider to be the truth. Your interpretation keeps to what you consider the truth. We both read the same passages but we both understand something different. I am looking at a larger picture while you are looking at the brush strokes.

Neither of us is right or wrong in our interpretation.

For every passage that you can quote I can quote another, or interpret your passage differently.

Another meaning for dharma as Sankara's commentary points out, is scripture/religion. Perhaps the comment about abandoning dharma is to abandon scripture, or to abandon the Gita??? Krsna is repeatedly playful and mischievous, it may be the ultimate irony. Abandon religion.

To each of us our interpretation is the correct one, there can be no right or wrong.

However, in the quest for moksa, such debate is futile, the Gita itself is pointless. Realisation that you too are part of the illusion and therefore just live life as it happens without desire... that is moksa.

 

 

As for 9:22 Mahadev Desai puts it as "ever attached to me" with commentary by Gandhi, Alladi Mahadeva Sastry puts it as "non-separate" with commentary from Sankara, Juan Mascaro puts it as "pure oneness of soul" without commentary. At present those are the only translations I have, but they just go to show that even the translators read passages differently and the commentators certainly read it differently.

 

moksa

[Guest guest]

"My interpretation of the Gita keeps with what I consider to be the truth. Your interpretation keeps to what you consider the truth. We both read the same passages but we both understand something different. I am looking at a larger picture while you are looking at the brush strokes."

•••in this way you lose your initial tolerance and equanimity... the fact is that i have used a very easy and clear logic to say what i am saying.. the principle is that if one in a book writes "ME" .. i understand "ME".. brush or not /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

"Neither of us is right or wrong in our interpretation. "

•••old trick.. you argue until you appear right, then, now, right or wrong does not exist.... ehem..

 

"For every passage that you can quote I can quote another, or interpret your passage differently."

•••actually you have stopped to experiment.. why?? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

" Perhaps the comment about abandoning dharma is to abandon scripture, or to abandon the Gita???"

•••"sarva dharma" is about abandoning the sectarian/material/"commercial" concept of religion and to love krishna without expecting nothing in change. Another aspect is to abandon also the desire of "moksa".. a pure devotee lover of krishna does not care if he gets or not the liberation from material sufferings, he wants only to serve, in this world or another. Serve means "master and servant" love means "loved and lover".. not a merging of both

 

" Realisation that you too are part of the illusion and therefore just live life as it happens without desire"

•••yes, very logic, if i want some money i have to do hard work.. if i want moksa (much more valuable i think) there's only to wait.. so what is the use to stay here speaking about the right or wrong if the result is the same?

 

" At present those are the only translations I have"

•••there's a very important religious idea that is "personalism".. inside this idea there's vaishnavism, and gaudya vaishnavism that is flooding india and western countries with harinama and vedic culture. I do not want to force you to accept an interpretation, but, actually, if you want a complete picture of the culture that you already know so well, you have to examine also the vaishnava/personalist position.

My sincere advice is to find a "bhagavad gita as it is" translated and commented by Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.. in this way you'll read also one who says that krsna is real and supreme, not a mere illusory manifestation of an unindifferentiate brahman... just to have another opinion and to know a vision that is changing the life of thousand of people all over the world

 

(madhav desai and alladi mahadeva are right.. i accept "attached to me" and "non separate" as the "attachment" and the "non separation" of an eternal lover to the loved..... juan mascaro? let him take some tacos in tijuana, or sing in a marachi band, not write on bhagavad gita)

 

yasoda nandana dasa