" Why, the men on one side, the women on one side ? "

[Guest guest]

Quotes on Women by Srila Prabhupada:

 

* "Regarding your questions about the examination to be given, the girls will also be able to take these. In Krishna Consciousness there is no distinction between girls and boys. The girls also may become preachers if they are able." (letter to Himavati, 1969)

 

* When Srila Prabhupada was asked if Jyotirmayi should finish her studies in ethnology, (studies of religion and culture), in order to teach vaishnavism in the universities, He answered, "Yes, she is very intelligent girl, she can do it." (Yogesvara)

 

* It is not that women should only produce children, but they are meant for advancing in devotion." (letter to Jayatirtha, 1975)

 

* In the Bhagavad Gita we find that women are also equally competent "like the men" in the matter of Krishna Consciousness movement." (letter to Himavati, 1969)

 

*A devotee woman recalls that she was once in a Srila Prabhupada's room for a darshan. There were hundreds of devotees visiting from other temples. Before lecturing, he insisted that the women, (who were all at the back), come and sit up front on one side of the vyasana. At least five sannyasi's, and about twenty men had to move to make room for the women. Srila Prabhupada sat quietly for about five minutes while everyone was relocating themselves and getting situated.

 

* "Regarding your question, yes woman can certainly reach the perfectional stage of devotion to Krishna." (letter to Krishna Devi, 1969)

 

*While during darshan, Srila Prabhupada had a brahmacari distribute a little prasadam to everyone present. The boy gave prasadam to all the men and sat down. Srila Prabhupada noticed that he did not serve the only two girls present, and said, "Give them also prasad, why don't you serve them?"

 

* "Women are better than men because they can accept any position." (Bhavatarini)

 

* In France, when Prabhupada noticed that Jyotirmayi could pronounce the Sanskrit better than others, (she had been taught by Nitai, His personal Sanskrit secretary), Srila Prabhupada said that from now on, she should lead the recitation of the Sanskrit verses before class. (Jyotirmayi, 1972)

 

* When a male devotee refused to be instructed by Jadurani, the head of the art department, because of her being a woman, Prabhupada called him in and ordered him to accept her instructions.

 

* "I want to organize a women's kirtan party singing the Gita-gan. Can you help me?" (letter to Gargamuni Maharaja, 1974)

 

* A disciple of Swami Narayana said to Srila Prabhupada, "My spiritual master said to avoid all women and to never go where there are women." Srila Prabhupada laughed, and said, "That is impossible, there are women everywhere." Then, coming back to the temple and watching two women devotees bow down to Him, He said, "By associating with these women, you will be purified." (Madhavananda)

 

* An acarya who comes for the service of the Lord cannot be expected to conform to a stereotype, for he must find the ways and means by which Krishna Consciousness may be spread. Sometimes jealous persons criticize the Krishna Consciousness movement because it engages *equally* both boys and girls in distribution of love of Godhead. (Chaitanya-caritamrita A.L. ch.7 purport of verses 32 and 38)

 

* On various occasions, brahmacari's complained to Srila Prabhupada that they were agitated by the presence of women in the temple, and Srila Prabhupada replied that if they could not restrain their senses, they should go live alone in the forest.

 

* When women were made to stand behind the men in the back of the temple room instead of side by side as established by Srila Prabhupada, women went on different occasions to Prabhupada who simply answered, "Why, the men on one side, the women on one side."

 

* When the women were made to offer flowers after the men during guru-puja, instead of simultaneously, Srila Prabhupada, informed by Ekayani, gave the same answer: "Why, the men from one side, the women from one side." (Ekayani)

 

* Bhibavati asked Srila Prabhupada, "Should I live like in the Vedic times, and simply serve my husband and child?" Srila Prabhupada replied, "No, you have talent as a writer, you should write articles for newspapers and propagate Krishna Consciousness." (Bhibavati)

 

* Srila Prabhupada said to a lady disciple, "Well, if you think you are a woman that means you are less intelligent, because you are supposed to understand that you are a spirit soul and that your real identity is transcendental to these bodily designations." (Sadaputa)

 

[Myra]

 

 

Thank you so much Prabhuji for sharing these wisdom from Srila Prabhupada.

 

Hare Krshna,

Myra

 

[Guest guest]

thank you very much... yasoda nandana dasa

[Guest guest]

Those are a very nice quotes, Prabhu. But to answer your original question, the reason men and women stand separately in the temple is because in proper Vedic society men and women do not dance together. Spiritually equality and the mixing of the sexes is actually incongruous. Mixing of the sexes except within the confines of marriage leads to exploitation of women and debauchery of men. Society which does not protect women, is not human society, but animal society.

[Priitaa]

Yes, we know there's no mixing of the sexes. Prabhupada has set up a standard for us, and its the one we should maintain.

[Guest guest]

This is very common idea in other religions also. I know in the jewish faith, what has become the yamika that men wear on their head has come down from when they would each wear blanket or shawl over their heads and shoulders so that the men and women would be less likely to look at each other and be able to concentrate on their prayer and worship with out distraction of being attracted to each other in the temple.

[Guest guest]

"During a conversation with Srila Prabhupada, someone commented that my son was very intelligent. Prabhupada agreed, "He is very intelligent." Someone then suggested, "Just like his father." Prabhupada shook his head and smiled, "No, like his mother." (Pradyumna)

 

"The social institution known as varnasrama-dharma--the institution dividing society into four divisions of social life and four occupational divisions of caste--is not meant to divide human society according to birth. Such divisions are in terms of educational qualifications. " BG 16:1 - 3, Purport

 

"We are Vaishnava's. We are not concerned with male of female position in life. That is simply bodily concept of life. It is not spiritual. Whether one is male or female, it does not matter, simply chant Hare Krishna and follow the four regulative principles and your life will be perfect." (letter to Jennifer, 1975)

 

"The system of varnashrama-dharma is more or less based on moral principles. There is very little realization of the Transcendence as such, and Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu rejected it as superficial and asked Ramananda Raya to go further into the matter." Srimad Bhagavatam, Introduction.

 

"A devotee woman recalls that she was once in Srila Prabhupada's room for a darshan. There were hundreds of visiting devotees from neighboring temples. Before lecturing he insisted that the women (who were all at the back) come and sit up front on one side of the vyasana. At least 5 sanyasis and about 20 men had to move to make room for the women. Srila Prabhupada sat quietly for about 5 minutes while everyone was relocating themselves and getting situated."

 

"Regarding your questions about the examination to be given, the girls will also be able to take these. In Krishna Consciousness there is no distinction between girls and boys. The girls also may become preachers if they are able." (letter to Himavati, 1969)

 

"Now I see that in our Society the girls are more intelligent than the boys." (Letter to Krishna Devi, 1970)

 

"This *modern* caste system is now condemned in India also, and it should be condemned for the classification of different types of men according to birth is not the Vedic or Divine caste system." SB 3: 6:13

 

"There are two kinds of sva-dharma, specific duties. As long as one is not liberated, one has to perform the duties of his particular body in accordance with religious principles in order to achieve liberation. When one is liberated, one's sva-dharma -- specific duty -- becomes spiritual and is not in the material bodily concept. In the bodily concept of life there are specific duties for the brahmanas and kstriyas respectively, and such duties are unavoidable. Sva-dharma is ordained by the Lord, and this will be clarified in the fourth chapter. One the bodily planet, sva-dharma is called Varnashrama-dharma, or mans *STEPPING STONE* for spirutal understanding." BG 2. 31

 

Bhibavati asked Srila Prabhupada: "Should I live like in the Vedic times, and simply serve my husband and child?" Srila Prabhupada replied: "No, you have a talent as a writer, you should write articles for newspapers and propagate Krishna Consciousness." (Bhibavati)

 

"When Srila Prabhupada was asked if Jyotirmayi should finish her studies in ethnology (study of religions and cultures) in order to teach vaishnavaism in the universities, he answered, "yes, she is very intelligent girl, she can do it." (Yogesvara)

 

Women, as well as men, accompanied Prabhupada when he was traveling and served him as secretaries, as did Arundhati, or served him personally as did Janaki.

 

When Srila Prabhupada was personally present, women as well as men could stand next to him.

 

Women wrote articles in magazines. Prabhupada personally asked Bibhavati who had been journalist previously, to do so.

 

As far as the service of temple president was concerned, Srila Prabhupada included husband and wife, he recommended them to be father and mother of the devotees they were in charge of.

 

In France, when Prabhupada noticed that Jyotirmayi could pronounce the Sanskrit better than others, (she had been taught by Nitai, His personal Sanskrit secretary), Srila Prabhupada said that from now on, she should lead the recitation of the Sanskrit verses before class. (Jyotirmayi, 1972)

 

Prabhupada: "Nowadays, ladies, they can understand." BG 4.10 Calcutta Sept 23, 74

 

Women were doing things that, later on, they were forbidden to do in front of Srila Prabhupada himself (and this forbidding came from the authorities, not from Prabhupada.) Jamuna was leading kirtans in front of him, Himavati gave public conferences, Jyotirmayi and Rukmini performed arati in front of him.

 

 

 

"This is a *new thing* in the history of the sankirtana movement. In India all the acaryas and their dependents later on only acted from the man's side. Their wives were at home because that was the system from *old times.* BUT in Bhagavad-gita we find that women are also *equally* competent like the men in the matter of Krishna Consciousness movement. Please therefore carry on these missionary activities, and prove it by practical example that there is no bar for anyone in the matter of preaching Krishna Consciousness." SPL to Himavati 69-12-20

 

[Guest guest]

Women's Liberation

Back to Godhead Vol. 14 No. 2/3

This exchange between His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and a woman reporter took place at Chicago's Krsna center during the summer of 1975.

 

Reporter:What advice do you have for women who do not want to be subordinate to men?

 

Srila Prabhupada: It is not my advice but the advice of the Vedic literatures- that a woman should be chaste and faithful to her husband.

 

Reporter: What should we do in the United States? We're trying to make women equal with men.

 

Srila Prabhupada: You will never be equal with men, because in so many respects your functions are different. Why do you say artificially they're equal with man's? The wife has to become pregnant, not the husband. How can you change this? Both the husband and wife will become pregnant - is it possible?

 

Reporter: (No reply.)

 

Srila Prabhupada: Is it possible?

 

Reporter: No. It is not.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Then by nature, one has to function differently from the other.

 

Reporter: Why does this mean that women have to be subordinate - just because they bear children and men can't?

 

Srila Prabhupada: By nature, as soon as you get children you require support from your husband. Otherwise, you are in difficulty.

 

Reporter: Many women with children have no support from their husband. They have no -

 

Srila Prabhupada: Then they have to take support from others. You cannot deny that. The government is giving them support. Today the government is embarrassed. If the husband supported the wife and children, the government would be relieved of so much welfare expenditure. So that is a problem.

 

Reporter: What happens when women support men?

 

Srila Prabhupàda: First of all, try to understand that you are dependent.

After a man and woman unite, there are children. And if the man goes away, you are embarrassed - the woman is embarrassed. Why? The poor woman is embarrassed with the child-she has to beg from the government. So do you think it is a very nice thing? The Vedic idea is that a woman should be married to a man, and the man should take care of that wornan and the children - independently - so that they do not become a burden to the government or to the public.

 

Reporter: Do you think that the social unrest-

 

Srila Prabhupada: I am thinking like this. You give me the answer! Simply you go on questioning. I will question you - Do you think this burden to the government and the public is good?

 

Reporter: I don't understand what you're saying.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Every year the government has to pay out millions of dollars in aid to dependent children. Do you think that this burden caused when the husband goes away from the wife - this burden to the government and the people is good?

 

Reporter: No.

 

Srila Prabhupada: That has happened - because the woman does not agree to be subordinate. She wants "equal freedom."

 

Reporter: And if women were subordinate to men, I suppose that would solve all of our problems?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. The husband wants that his wife should be subordinate - faithful to him. Then he's ready to take charge. Man's mentality and - woman's mentality are different. So, if the woman agrees to remain faithful and subordinate to the man, then family life will be peaceful. Otherwise the husband goes away, and the woman is embarrassed with the children, and it becomes a burden to the governrnent and the people in general.

 

Reporter: Is there anything wrong when the woman works?

 

Srila Prabhupada: There are so many things wrong, but the first thing is - Why should some man's wife and child become a burden to the governrnent or the public? First of all answer this. Why should she become a burden?

 

Reporter: [No reply.]

 

Srila Prabhupada: What is your answer?

 

Reporter: Well, men are burdens to the government, too.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Do you think, from the social point of view, that this situation of women and fatherless children is a very nice thing?

 

Reporter: What I'm trying to say is that ... this may happen to some women ... I'm talking about women who are not -

 

Srila Prabhupada: This is the general pattern. You cannot say "some." In America I see they are mostly women.... The woman should be subordinate to the man, so that the man can take charge of the woman. Then the woman is not a problem for the public.

 

Reporter: Is this true for all women and all men?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. That is the law of nature. You take even the dogs - they also take care of their children. The tigers - they take care of their children. So in the human society, if the woman is made pregnant and the man goes away, then she is embarrassed-she has to beg from the governrnent.

That is not a very good situation.

 

Reporter: What about women who do not have children?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Well, that is another unnatural thing. Sometimes they use contraceptives, or they kill their children - abortion. That is also not very good. These are all sinful activities.

 

Reporter: Excuse me?

 

Srila Prabhupida: These are sinful activities - killing the child in the womb and taking shelter of abortion. These are all sinful activities. One has to suffer for them.

 

Reporter: Is the social unrest in this country caused because -

 

Srila Prabhupada: Because of these things. They do not know that............

 

[Myra]

Thanks so much Gopaldas Prabhu!

 

I just admired Sri Prabhupada more and more. On the other hand, it's very disappointing to see the continuous split/changes of his teachings.

 

The posts actually are such a challenge to those sincere and pure devotees who believe and living from the teachings of Sri Prabhupada. It's been obvious that more and more Krishna followers through Sri Prabhupada ( I mean they understand more Krishna through Prabhupada) became more bodily conscious than spiritually aspiring.

 

Given the scenario posted above, Pure Devotees:

 

If you won't act today, who else?

If not now, when?

 

Hare Krishna,

Myra

 

[yasodanandana]

" it's very disappointing to see the continuous split/changes of his teachings"

-you have (me too) to study the complete picture and practice to understand the personality of a vaishnava (imho.. these two above positions of srila prabhupada's siddhanta are very coherent and compatible)

 

" It's been obvious that more and more Krishna followers through Sri Prabhupada ( I mean they understand more Krishna through Prabhupada) became more bodily conscious than spiritually aspiring"

-his divine grace does not teach to be bodily conscious (read any complete book and it will be easily clear), so who becames like that is obviously not following correctly.... on the other hands we have to examine all the tradition, prabhupada is considered, by every gaudya math autority , absolutely in line with chaitanya mahaprabhu and his followers.. and in all these centuries we have seen that who follows seriously this path becomes a perfectly realized soul

 

so some fanatic neophytes that maybe you have met or spoken with, do not demonstrate the effect of a life of serious following of an acharya vaishnava like srila prabhupada

[Priitaa]

When I decided to research this topic, one thing I noticed is that we sometimes have different definitions for words from Prabhupada's.

 

For example, I am on IWC (Internet/Iskcon Women's Conference). There the female devotees often talk about how they believe in equality but also in difference. That is, they don't want to be equal to men in the sense of turning into a man, what they want is to be "treated" equally.

 

When I would read Prabhupada's words, for example one above says that a woman cannot be equal becuase she is different, or her function is different. This is really the same thing woman are saying, tho it needs to be looked at more closely due to our ways of using such words ourselves.

 

So it appears to me anyhow, that Prabhupada is pointing out the difference between a male 'body' and a female 'body,' and that she can't turn into a male or do 'all' the things he can. Nor can a male do 'all' the things a woman can.

 

Whereas when we look at how Prabhupada treated his female disciples, we see he always treated them with the utmost respect, treated them equally, never looked down on them or said "You can't drive because you're a woman," or "You can't preach or talk to strangers because you're a woman." He never even said, "I want you to become like Vedic woman of India. No. He gave us an even higher science, and therefore women would go out on sankirtana, or like Bibvati, wrote intelligent articles, had Jyotirmayi devi dasi give class, Jahnava dd (whom I still have contact with) was an artist, preformed drama and is in the Iskcon Ramayana movie, plus distributed books. Women cooked for the Deities (this is not allowed culturally), did Puja, and so on.

 

That list can go on and on and on. Its not that he did two different things here. This part is clear. Therefore I feel we don't always understand the mind, or writings, of a pure Vaisnava and its why we need to read all of his books, more than once, before it even starts to seep in. ha Speaking from experience. (That is, still trying to get it to seep in.)

[Priitaa]

Almost forgot this. I know one woman who shaved off all her hair and dressed like a total renunciant. Her temple president was not pleased with ths at all. I guess it made him feel uncomfortable, but his reasoning was different. (Something along the lines that only men can do these things.) So he wrote to Prabhuapda a letter. Prabhupada asked him how she lives her life, or if she is doing any service. The temple president replied that she does more service than darn near anyone in the temple. Then Prabhupada wrote back to say (I dont have exact quote but I DO remember the meaning) then it is all right. Like, no big deal. If she's serving Krishna, then it doesn't matter.

 

So all these bodily rules of VAD are for the 'purpose' of getting us 'off' the bodily platform as well as to move us toward Krishna. But if those same rules are being misused or at least misunderstood to keep us on the bodly platform, or we if ourselves get stuck there, then we are missing the point. For one who is beyond them, there is no problem. Often we are mixed, or tinged, but at least we have to keep aiming in the direction of aham brahmasmi rather than 'I am my body.' /images/graemlins/smile.gif The more we serve Krishna and chant, the closer to that we become every day.