Guest guest Posted November 27, 2003 Report Share Posted November 27, 2003 that is AhlAdini not ahlAdini. AhlAdini is another name for hlAdini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2003 Report Share Posted November 27, 2003 Thank you, it might be that I spell it wrong. I am not proficient in sanskrit. Srila BV Svami says that she is not there, than it must be ahlAdini - when this is the meaning. And this is Ok, Radha never gets out of Vrindavan, as all our acaryas said. Only an expansion of Her goes to KurukSetra (sam-yogini Radhika). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted November 27, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2003 that is AhlAdini not ahlAdini. AhlAdini is another name for hlAdini And what is the meaning of AhlAdini ? How can Ahladini be another name for hladini? Maybe hladini and Ahladini refers as adjectives to a similar object <font color="blue"> but to empasize different features</font color>. And they can refer only to Srimati Radhika. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted November 27, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2003 CONCLUSION: Controversies arise in the VaiSNava community to clarify important philosophical points for the benefit of all concerned. siddhAnta baliyA citte nA kara alasa ihä ha-ite kRSNe lAge sudRDha mAnasa A sincere student should not neglect the discussion of such conclusions, considering them controversial, for such discussions strengthen the mind. Thus one’s mind becomes attached to Sri kRSNa. ( CC Adi lila 2.117) I pray that the points presented herein may serve all the members of ISKCON, which include Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja and his followers, so that they can work together as one family to preach the mission of Srila Prabhupäda and our previous äcäryas. VaiSNava kRpA leSa prarthi (begging for a slight trace of the mercy of the VaiSNavas), TridaNDi SvAmi BhaktivedAnta AraNya This article is a reply to the paper entitled “ISKCON’s position on Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja” by His Grace Badri-nArAyaNa Prabhu. The following article examines, one by one, the points made in that paper, in the light of scriptural evidence and the statementsof Srila Prabhupada himself. Statements of the ISKCON position paper will be refered to as OBJECTION, and ours as REFUTATION. For previous references see http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=hinduism&Number=61233&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 How can Ahladini be another name for hladini? They are paryAyavAchi - synonyms and they refer to Ananda aspect of brahman Prabhupad - Radha-krsna-pranaya-vrkitir ahladini-saktir asmat. Ahladini-sakti. Krsna, God, has got many potencies. One of the potencies is called ahladini-sakti, pleasure potency. So Krsna's consort, Lord Ramacandra's consort, they are pleasure potency, exhibited. By the way, this shakti is present in all muktAs to different extent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted November 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 They are paryAyavAchi - synonyms and they refer to Ananda aspect of brahman They are the same and not the same. In tattva they are really the same, they both refer to Ananda but in rasa they are different. Ananda in Vrindavana is different from Ananda in Mathura or Dvaraka. The lokas <font color="red"> in the spiritual world are rasa lokas</font color> , they differ in rasa. <font color="blue"> Customarily, anyone who composed a song, verse, literary composition or poem about Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu first had to bring it to Svarupa Damodara Gosvami to be heard. svarupa-thani uttare yadi, lana, tanra mana tabe mahaprabhu-thani karaya sravana If passed by Svarupa Damodara Gosvami, it could be presented for Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu to hear. `rasabhasa' ha ya yadi `siddhanta-virodha, sahite na pare prabhu, mane haya krodha If there were a hint that <font color="red"> transcendental mellows overlapped in a manner contrary to the principles of the bhakti cult</font color> , Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu would not tolerate it and would become very angry. </font color> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 What I was trying to say is that AhlAdini and hlAdini are synonyms and NOT antonyms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted November 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 can you identify yourself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted November 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 There was a compilation published on the Cakra website which attempted to show that Srila NArAyaNa MahArAja'S teachings are different from those of Çréla Prabhupäda. The compilation that was posted on Cakra is called “Understanding NArAyaNa MahArAja: his own words and other primary sources”, and it offers quotes by both Srila Prabhupada and Srila Narayana MahArAja. The following article explains these same quotes again. When quoting the compilation, we shall begin with the word COMPILATION, and we will begin our own statements with the word REFUTATION. Material view and transcendental view COMPILATION 1 : NArAyaNa MahArAja on A.C. BhaktivedAnta Swami PrabhupAda and ISKCON: <font color="red"> NArAyaNa MahArAja , Germany: December 12, 2001:</font color> “My SikzA-guru, nitya-lila-praviSTa oM viSNupAda Sri Srimad BhaktivedAnta Swami MahArAja.” <font color="red"> NArAyaNa MahArAja, MathurA: October 24, 1999: </font color> “We can glorify SwAmiji, BhaktivedAnta Swami MahArAja. But those who are falling down, how can they glorify him? They cannot glorify him, never; they are cutting. They are establishing that he was the founder of ISKCON, but I know that he was not founder; <font color="blue"> he was (is) one of the members of this in guru-paramparA </font color>. It was founded by KRSNa, and first AcArya was BrahmA, then NArada, then VyAsa. Only he has changed the name (for oficial registration) and he has preached these things in Western countries.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted November 30, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 Material view and transcendental view In his Bhagavad-gita Preface, Srila Prabhupada writes: “Some of them said that it is greatly fortunate for the Americans that <font color="red"> I have started </font color>the KRSNa consciousness movement in America. But <font color="blue"> actually the original father of this movement is Lord KRSNa</font color> Himself, since it was started a very long time ago, but is coming down to human society <font color="blue"> by disciplic succession. </font color>If I have any credit in this connection, it does not belong to me personally, but it is due to my eternal spiritual master, His Divine Grace oM viSNupAda paramahaMsa parivrAjakAcArya 108 Sri Srimad BhaktisiddhAnta Sarasvati GosvAmi Mahäräja PrabhupAda.” A pure devotee sees the thigs from the proper perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2003 Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 ***Thank you, it might be that I spell it wrong. I am not proficient in sanskrit. Srila BV Svami says that she is not there, than it must be ahlAdini - when this is the meaning. And this is Ok, Radha never gets out of Vrindavan, as all our acaryas said. Only an expansion of Her goes to KurukSetra (sam-yogini Radhika). "When He is fighting, the AhlAdinI-Sakti is there" As Svarupa Damodara Gosvami has explained, radha krsna -pranaya-vikеtir hladini saktir asmat (Cc. Adi 1.5). The AHLADINI-SAKTI is manifested as Radharani, but krsna and Radharani are the same, although one is potent and the other is potency. Then if we are qualified, then some day we may be able to understand what is yugala-piriti, love between krsna and Radharani. Not so sudden. That is sahajiya. Not so sudden. We should not try to do that. First of all I must see how much I have become sarvopadhi vinirmuktam, how much I am free from the designational position. Then we shall be able. Radha-krsna -pranaya-vikrцi AHLADINI-SAKTI asmad. Generally some professional men, they chant Radha-krsna -pranaya-vikеtir. That is not the way. You cannot understand the loving affairs of Radha and krsna without understanding the path given by the Gosvamis. If you surpass in this way, avoid the way of approaching Radha-krsna by reading Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, The Nectar of Devotion, the Teachings of Lord Caitanya-all of a sudden if you become an upstart to understand Radha-krsna love-then you’ll misunderstand. That is the way. And people, they try to understand Radha-krsna love affairs, jumping all of a sudden. This is not the way. One should be very much eager to understand. Radha-krsna -pranaya-vikеtir AHLADINI So Radharani is not ordinary, as the sahajiyas, those who take Radha-krsna love affair very easily... No. Then you'll misunderstand. Radha-krsna -pranaya-vikеtir AHLADINI-SAKTI. It is the expansion of pleasure potency of krsna . Radha-krsna is not ordinary. Radha krsna -pranaya-vikеtir hladini sakti. This is the manifestation of the AHLADINI-SAKTI of krsna . Eternally They are enjoying. Radharani is enjoying the company of krsna , and krsna is enjoying. Radha krsna -pranaya vikеtir AHLADINI-SAKTI. ******** Ahladini sakti it is inner energy (Radha-Krisna) Lord Caitanya's. Expand Himself like Radha, Krisna has Radha too ( om purnam adah purnam idam ). Radha eternally with Krisna. You understand? "Where You - where (?) Vrindavan" Advaita Acarya. Lord Caitanya sourse all spiritual-material world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2003 Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 ***anadi---He [ Srila Prabhupada ] is not in the category of nitya siddha or sadhna siddha jivas Prabhupada: Krsna's bhakti-nitya-siddha is already there. Otherwise it was not possible to become so successful in the foreign countries. They are not fools, accepting something bogus. Bhava means Krsna consciousness fully developed. Then love. Then love. Love is actually exhibited. Then “Let me serve Krsna in this way, in that way, that way, that way.” You see? Fully engaged. This is the process. You cannot say that “Let my love be stagnant in my heart. There is no exhibition.” No. There must be exhibition. That is the symptom of love. Otherwise why Rupa Gosvami resigned from his ministership? He was a devotee from the very beginning. He is nitya-siddha, eternal devotee. Similarly, there are other living entities in the spiritual world, they are called nitya-mukta or nitya-siddha. They never come in this material world. Just like Rupa Gosvami. Prabhupada: That is the difference between Krsna and Arjuna. Although Arjuna is... Birth after birth, he is friend of Krsna, nitya-siddha. These Caitanya Mahaprabhu associates, they are eternal associates. They appear somewhere... Just like Haridasa Thakura appeared somewhere in Muhammadan family, Sanatana Gosvami was found engaged in government service, Raghunatha dasa Gosvami was a zamindar's son. In different places. But actually they appear to fulfill the mission of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Therefore they are called nitya-siddhas. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna is nitya-siddha friend, eternal friend. Pusta Krsna: (break) Prabhupada, Lord Caitanya's weapons were His associates. Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu's weapons were His associates. Prabhupada: Yes. Sangopangastra-parсadam. Therefore Narottama dasa Thakura said, gaurangera sangi-gane, nitya-siddha kori mane: "All the associates of Lord Caitanya, they are ever liberated.” Nitya-siddha kori mane. "Anyone accepts the assistants of Lord Caitanya as ever liberated-he also becomes liberated, simply by accepting the associates of Lord Caitaya Mahaprabhu who is helping Caitanya Mahдprabhu's mission, simply by accepting this, the man who is accepting, he becomes liberated." -------------- ***The jivas are coming from the glance of Maha ViSnu in TataStha Region between the cit and the acit world, like muster seeds would pouring on a sword blade. Some of them looking to the spiritual world, automaticly become atracted of it and the Lord fulfills their desire and endow them with the support of the hladini Sakti, and according their stayibhava go to a certain region of the spiritual sky. ***Those jivas who by looking at the acit world became attracted to it, get their desire fulfiled by the Lord of the heart who give them the suport of maha maya Sakti, and qualifies them through suitable suits (like ahankara, buddhi, mana) to acti in the acit world. The soul makes a choice casually? Who has looked that casually in an spiritual world and who has looked that casually in a material world? --------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2003 Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 .... kaya-vyuha-personal expansions; .... TRANSLATION The personal associates of the primeval Lord, Sri krsna , are His devotees, who are identical with Him. He is complete with His entourage of devotees. ....kaya-vyuha-quadruple expansions;.... TRANSLATION They are both one and the same identity. They differ only in form. He is the first bodily expansion of krsna , and He assists in Lord krsna 's transcendental pastimes. .....kaya-vyuha kari’-expanding Himself in different bodies; .... TRANSLATION Sesa Sankarsana, who holds all the planets on His head, expands Himself in different bodies to render service to Lord krsna . ....kaya-vyuha-the expansion of one’s body; .... TRANSLATION “The prabhava-prakasa expansions of Lord krsna are not like the expansions of the sage Saubhari. Had they been so, Narada would not have been astonished to see them. ----------------- Everything is an expansion of Krsna's energy. As it is said, parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate: the Lord has multi-energies, which are expressed in different ways. The energies are existing, and the Supreme Personality of Godhead also exists simultaneously; because everything is His energy, He is simultaneously one with everything and different from everything. Similarly, one must purify his vision so that he can practically observe the expansion of the Absolute Truth. Such observation can take place either by the ears or by the eyes. Vedic knowledge is sabda-brahma, or transcendental potency in the form of sound vibration. Therefore, one can observe the functions of the Absolute Truth through submissive hearing of transcendental sound. Sastra-caksus. When one's consciousness becomes fully purified one can perceive the Absolute Truth with all of one's spiritualized senses. ----------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted December 1, 2003 Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 "The soul makes a choice casually? Who has looked that casually in an spiritual world and who has looked that casually in a material world?" no, anadi has'nt mentioned casuality Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kailasa Posted December 1, 2003 Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 ***"The soul makes a choice casually? Who has looked that casually in an spiritual world and who has looked that casually in a material world?" no, anadi has'nt mentioned casuality Soul do choise? Some choise material world, not choise spiritual world? Hmm...spiritual world not attractiv? /images/graemlins/smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted December 1, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 “The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krishna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krishna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their FIRST opportunity to associate with Krishna personally and directly. The training goes on, as we see in vRndävana-lila.” ( Krishna Book:Chapter Twenty-eight ) “The CONCLUSION is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.” ( Srimad-BhAgavatam 3.16.26) This mount of ... He must have at least faith in "his" Prabhupada if not in Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. <font color="blue"> Is useless to present any other arguments because he doesn't WANT to understand.</font color> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted December 1, 2003 Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 "Soul do choise? Some choise material world, not choise spiritual world? Hmm...spiritual world not attractiv? " •••you are right.. maybe this is a thing that we will understand when we will be there... the other theory (we come from goloka vrindavan) leaves the same "intellectual hole": "how can we leave goloka vrindavan for the material world?" so "i live in goloka and i choose to go in material world" or "i see both material world and goloka and i choose the first" .. both these tattvas leave us in the same amazement am i wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted December 1, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 In the pastime of falling in tataStha one doesn't deliberate about the two worlds, jiva's sat cit ananda vigraha is not manifested, that is why tataStha is also called viraja (the neutral state in which one can choose) , and both realms are very appealing and very shining. The moment that one wishes one of them, one is already there. Of course Sri Krishna wanted also that someone comes in the material worlds, otherwise he would not do the whole arrangement. But we are the one that volunteered, still volunteer! to be here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2003 Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 ***The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krishna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krishna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their FIRST opportunity to associate with Krishna personally and directly. The training goes on, as we see in vRndävana-lila.” ( Krishna Book:Chapter Twenty-eight ) It is about fall soul? ***“The CONCLUSION is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.” ( Srimad-BhAgavatam 3.16.26) This mount of ... He must have at least faith in "his" Prabhupada if not in Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. SBT write - "soul fall from spiritual world". Srila Prabhupada write un many places too. Needs understand whole contecst. Soul was fall, because spiritual worls absolute. You undersdtand? Or not? In spiritual world no material time then falls soul WAS or WILL. No time. Soul come from place whom not time, then whewre shi come? - immortal. All souls who has desire now in material world, you understand? Second - all souls spiritual, souls do not stay in material world. It is illusion. Sourse souls it is Krisna - sarva karana karanam, Maha Visnu not sourse souls. ***Is useless to present any other arguments because he doesn't WANT to understand. I am teke for you citation SBT, may needs citation Srila Prbhupada? He is clear speak about fall souls. You not read? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2003 Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 "Soul do choise? Some choise material world, not choise spiritual world? Hmm...spiritual world not attractiv? " •••you are right.. maybe this is a thing that we will understand when we will be there... the other theory (we come from goloka vrindavan) leaves the same "intellectual hole": "how can we leave goloka vrindavan for the material world?" Yes. It is one and too theory. Soul from Vaicuntha, soul not for impersonal brahman. /images/graemlins/smile.gif ***so "i live in goloka and i choose to go in material world" or "i see both material world and goloka and i choose the first" .. both these tattvas leave us in the same amazement Yes. I am write for this reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2003 Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 ***In the pastime of falling in tataStha one doesn't deliberate about the two worlds, jiva's sat cit ananda vigraha is not manifested, that is why tataStha is also called viraja (the neutral state in which one can choose) , and both realms are very appealing and very shining. The moment that one wishes one of them, one is already there. It spiritual energy will work like material energy and soul fall in maya. Any way soul fall from brahman, brahman most high then material world. Fall soul it is spiritual question, it is not matrial sheme. Sourse falling soul it is root material life. Then if person not take moksa he not understand this question. Fall, now so many people fall so many times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted December 1, 2003 Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 "Fall soul it is spiritual question, it is not matrial sheme. Sourse falling soul it is root material life. Then if person not take moksa he not understand this question." ..... yes, but anadi gave good (even if for us theoretical) answers... do not oppose also because he's from Narayana Maharaja!!!! prabhupada and iskcon too are clearly for tatasta theory, the souls who , in al little minority, fall in this world are from a condition where like at the limit of the seashore, the dry sand(maya) and the water(vaikunta) are somewhat present simultaneously and tatasta is spiritual.... when prabhupada says that everyone comes from spiritual world and there's a "coming back" business, not a "going" one.. he says in this way to be concise, but he is right and coherent with the tatasta shakti concept in my opinion.. (collaborate please, you are vaishnavas!!!!) /images/graemlins/smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted December 1, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 “The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krishna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krishna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their FIRST opportunity to associate with Krishna personally and directly. The training goes on, as we see in vRndAvana-lila.” ( Krishna Book:Chapter Twenty-eight ) "dhairyat" If the devotee first sees KRSNA when he was trasfered in the material univers where vRndAvana-lila goes on, <font color="blue"> it means that he had never seen Krishna before</font color>. If he would have been in the spiritual world and would have fallen from there than <font color="red"> this meeting were not declared here as the first time when the devotee sees Krishna</font color>. All the other speculations are pure stupidity and <font color="blue"> guru drohi</font color>. That person is a great offender, and I hope that Sri Krishna would be merciful with us and spare us with the presence of that obstinate offender. “ <font color="red"> The CONCLUSION is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode</font color> .” ( Srimad-BhAgavatam 3.16.26) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted December 1, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 Dandvat pranama prabhupada and iskcon too are clearly for <font color="red"> tatasta theory</font color>, the souls who , in al little minority, fall in this world are from a condition where like at the limit of the seashore, the dry sand(maya) and the water(vaikunta) are somewhat present simultaneously Yes, we go all the way back; but we cross the marginal position. And we fall in the material world, but from the marginal position. No jiva can be fixed in that position. That region is spiritual, but there is no rasa there. One should meditate on the reason of existence of this region tataStha, and why jivas are called tataStha Sakti. They are called tataStha because they come from tataStha. Otherwise give me a reason. Tatashtha is <font color="red"> not theory </font color>, Sriman Mahprabhu makes no theories, He speaks the Truth. <font color="blue"> jivera svarupa Sakti </font color>krsnera nitya dasa <font color="red"> kRSNera tataStha Sakti </font color> bheda abheda prakaSa the three aspects of <font color="red"> svarUpa-Sakti </font color> – namely, hlAdini, sandhini, and saMvit – completely influence all the activities of the cit-Sakti, <font color="blue"> jiva-Sakti</font color>, and mAyA-Sakti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 In the pastime of falling in tataStha one doesn't deliberate about the two worlds, jiva's sat cit ananda vigraha is not manifested, that is why tataStha is also called viraja (the neutral state in which one can choose) , and both realms are very appealing and very shining. The moment that one wishes one of them, one is already there. Of course Sri Krishna wanted also that someone comes in the material worlds, otherwise he would not do the whole arrangement. But we are the one that volunteered, still volunteer! to be here. Kindly do not ascribe motive to the Supreme Lord. We are here, because of our and only our wish, not His and this material creation is a facility given by Him for two fold purpose 1. to satisfy our wishes of material enjoyment 2. more importantly, for spiritual advancement. He never "wanted" that some souls should come into the material world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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